Not sure on your timing or your budget... but the best thing I have seen work in areas with horrible, hard, poor soil is to pile the cheapest mulch you can find 3-6" deep and let it rot down through 2 seasons... Then - do a soil test and seed straight into it the 3rd season. This isn't a hard decision when you are talking a smaller lawn (Under 2,000 sq-ft) or a section you deem to be your "Showplace"... but it gets pretty cost prohibitive as you get larger unless you have some equipment handy like a tractor or bobcat and a discount source of mulch (Like tree services)...

Just for reference - 1 normal dump truck (18 yards) will cover about 2,000 sq ft right at 3" deep... and it's a giant amount of shovelling and wheel barrowing if you are doing it yourself....

If I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now... that's what I would do - rather than trying to get grass to grow into deficient soil, scraped bare of any topsoil - that would not even grow weeds.... I probably spent about 2x as much money if I totaled it all up... and could have shirked all "Lawn Maintenance" besides weed killing for 2-years...

Thanks

Rototillers cannot be controlled by a human. They are unwieldy in operation. They buck and dig like a bronco. Hit a root or a rock and the front flies out of the ground. Hit a soft spot and it digs for China. The end result may look perfectly flat on the surface but underneath the fluffy top layer it is all hills and valleys. When the surface fluff finally settles in 3 years, it will settle to match the hills and valleys. That leaves the surface bumpy. Don't till. Work only at the surface.

There is a tool you can use to incorporate sulfur. It is a power rake. Power rakes have vertical cutters that can dig down into the soil from the surface but in a controlled way. Think mini rototiller but more of a slicer making little slits in the soil.

If you get the compo$t, you only need 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet. Any more than that and you risk smothering the lawn. Move it out of the initial pile with a wheel barrow and dump it into piles around the yard. Then shovel it around after that. Use a push broom to push it down into the grass and to lift the grass blades back up from under the compost. The grass blades left under the compost will die.

Before you buy any seed for your lawn, do an Internet search for bpgreen and wheatgrass. bp has not been on the forums much recently but his legend lives on. He lives in SLC and has a blend of wheatgrass' and blue grama for a lawn. Here's a picture of it.

Typically bpgreen does not water the lawn until May. He might water it 4 times per year when it looks poorly. And he never fertilizes. All he does is mow once a month. If you can handle having a lawn like that, I'd say go for it. Oh and the clover in his lawn is strawberry clover, which he included in his seed mix.

Yes, I could really go for a lawn like that! Why don't more people plant with this seed? Sounds like a well-kept secret. :) I must admit I was a little skeptical about the "not tilling" advice at first, but now that I have three people who seem to have a lot of experience telling me it's not a good idea, we might just have to rethink it.

I desperately want a lawn for my small children to play on this year, but I may just have to be patient. Thanks once more for the advice. BTW, where can I find sulfur? Lowe's? Home depot? IFA?

Yeah, telling you not to till is one thing. I thought I'd go a little farther and tell you why not to till. If you have ever mowed a bumpy lawn, the reason is likely to be rototilling for the initial preparation.

bpgreen's success comes from doing the research into which native prairie grasses do well in his (and your) area. One of the first rules of gardening is to plant plants which are well adapted to your area and to the season. That's what he did.

I've checked into using his mix of grasses to use down here in the heat and they don't work. The grasses that do work down here are varieties of buffalo. Blue grama works as far south as San Antonio in full sun. I have a house in SA in full shade and one 100 miles further south. That is just enough to make blue grama a short lived grass that looks weaker and weaker year after year. It could also be that the seed gets expensive, but seed prices vary locally. Find his posts, figure out which grasses he uses, and see what you can find. Some of his posts are on Gardenweb and many others are on another forum.

Where in UT are you? I'm in Cache Valley, by Logan. If you are in Northern UT then Tiemco is probably right. Lake Bonneville created a certain soil environment for us. It looks like clay but it usually isn't. It is actually sandy loam, but the sand particles are so fine that they are almost clay. Get a soil test (IFA will do it for you or you can use LoganLabs which is popular on here) and do the jar test. You'll see what I mean. And the Magnesium content is HIGH resulting in compaction problems. And yes, it is likely that the soil is alkaline, but the soil test will tell you for sure.

On the other topic, my parents live in an area nearby where the city charges excessive amounts for water and they are looking for an alternative to bluegrass/fescue for a less maintained area of about 2/3 acre where grandchildren play. I was talking to them about buffalo grass as a possibility, but we later settled on a similar combination to the one Dchall mentioned.

Crested Wheatgrass (ephriam variety)
Blue Grama
Mini-clover

The miniclover would probably interest you the most right now. It is a newer type of clover that looks just like dutch white clover, but it is miniature in comparison. The "shamrocks" are about 1/2 the size of what you normally see in lawns around here. But if you mow it, they stay even smaller and very dense. It is much better in a lawn than white clover or strawberry clover too because it isn't nearly as aggressive. It will fill in bare spots where the grass isn't doing well, but it won't crowd out the grass and take over like the others. But like all clovers it provides its own nitrogen as well as to the grasses around it. So you wouldn't need to fertilize. It requires little water and sprouts VERY quickly.

We are using the crested wheatgrass instead of the western wheatgrass because they want a finer blade grass. And the ephraim variety is somewhat rhizomatous. Also the roots are a bit shallower so it greens quicker with water, which is exactly why we decided against buffalo grass.

Anyway, you'll still need to water for it to look good, but only a fraction of what you would with KBG. With this combination you should only need to water once a month beginning Jul - mid Sept when we get almost no moisture in UT. Water deeply once every 21-28 days sounds right, depending on the rain.

As for mowing, you mentioned that you wanted a place for kids to play. That is the other reason to use mini-clover instead of white or strawberry. Clover attracts bees like crazy (that's why most of the honey in UT is clover honey), and the latter two are known for their flowering. Because they are invasive, the problem gets increasingly worse. But the mini-clover is not invasive and if you keep it mowed you won't be fighting blossoms and bees.

We are expecting a very nice looking lawn for my parents' grandchildren. Not like my KBG, but fits their desires nicely. I should mention that they are still doing a KBG/fescue blend in the front yard as their neighborhood is very high end and they are expected to match.

If you decide to go this route, next week is the time to get started. We are expected to reach 80F for the first time and should stay warm from here out after the freak snowstorm today. At a moist 70F the clover will sprout within 5 days and the grasses at around 10 days.

Get some elemental sulfur (IFA or Cal Ranch) and use a power rake on a low setting to incorporate it into the soil. That will also get the soil ready for the seed.

DO NOT TILL!!! Unless you are a fan of lumpy lawns and scalping mowers.

Go ahead and throw down some compost if you want. It is cheap here because of all the dairy farms but don't overdo it. Personally, I won't use it again. It didn't do anything for my lawn compared to the organic fertilization program, which you should definitely go with.

If all goes well, you'll have a nice looking clover-lawn by the end of the month. On the plus side, if you ever decide to get rid of the clover, just go get some "weed-b-gone clover" and you'll convert back to all grass very easily. On the downside, if you like the clover, be very careful when spraying other weeds like dandelion.

I live in the Salt Lake area. Thank you for some more wonderful and appreciated advice! We went ahead and bought a wheatgrass blend called "Cabin Mix" from Utah Seed in Clearfield. We decided to forego the clover for now, since we don't want to deal with kids and bees.

I do have a question for you though: So, we understand we shouldn't till the lawn. But, we had to kill the existing lawn last fall and now, even after raking over it several times by hand (our yard is less than 800 sq ft.), the roots are still making the soil pretty stiff. What's the best way to get ready for the seed? I want it to be loose enough for the seed to germinate properly.

Also, it's supposed to get up to 80 degrees on Tuesday right? Should we plant today or wait for it to cool down this weekend?

Sorry! I'm so new to all this! Thanks again!

Anyway... That grass blend should be great for you. It has the crested wheatgrass, streambank wheatgrass, and then some tall fescue which will add a nicer texture and grow better in shady areas if you have them. If you ever think you might want to add clover, just try out some of that miniclover in a small spot. It sprouts so quickly that you'll know whether you like it or not within 6-8 weeks. If not, spray Weed-B-Gone Clover and it vanishes and the grass remains.

To prepare for planting over existing grass, this is how I would do it...

1) Order soil test from LoganLabs. If you sent it today, you'd have results back by weekend, and you'll know if there is anything you want to do to the soil BEFORE seed. Trust me, there is nothing worse than trying to grow seed in UT on poor soil.

2) In the mean time... Is the existing grass completely dead? If not, kill it off with Round-up. If you had to spray again, give it a couple days to work.

3) If your lawn area was larger I would tell you to call up a tractor service with a box blade/pre-seeder. But with only 800sf it is prob more hassle than it's worth. I use a nice straight 10 foot 2X4 for checking flatness. Very quick and easy. If there are any significant high spots (an inch or more), cut them down using a garden hoe and flat nosed shovel. Fill in any significant low spots.

3) You'll know this for sure after the soil test, but it is very likely you'll want to add two things to your soil before seeding. First, elemental sulfur. This is much more effective when worked into the soil rather than surface applied. Chances are good that you have a high pH and high magnesium. The high pH won't let the grass access the iron which is a major factor in the green color you're looking for in a lawn. Second, Milorganite is going to probably be the best organic material to work into the soil. You'll probably need more iron because of the high pH, and Milorganite has it. The best part is that unlike other iron treatments, you really can't do it wrong. Too much? No problem!

3) After treating the soil... Rent a power rake from the local rental shop. WEAR THICK PANTS, NOT SHORTS, A DUST MASK, AND SOME SAFETY GLASSES. Power rakes can kick little pebbles back at you. Set it to a low setting where the blades are cutting into the soil about 1/2". Go over the area once one direction and then again in the perpendicular direction.

4) Using a landscaping rake and the 2X4, knock down any minor high spots and fill in any low spots again.

5) If possible, set the power rake to a lower setting, about 1 to 1 1/2" deep. Some can do it and some can't. Go over the area in both diagonal directions. If a spot is particularly tough, then go over it a bit more. At this point, the top layer of soil should be loose and the soil amendments should be worked in.

6) Rent a lawn roller. Using the landscape rake and 2X4 as a screed, smooth out the loose dirt. Roll the area to make sure there aren't any spots that are going to settle on you.

7) After rolling it, screed and smooth it again.

8) If you want to take the easy way out, call a hydro seeder, and tell them you want them to use your own seed. That is the direction that I would go.

If not....

9) Broadcast the seed at the rates dictated on the package. I use a drop spreader for this because they are more controllable.

9) Roll the seed into the soil with the lawn roller.

10) Top dress the area with either peat moss or top soil to about 1/8" to 1/4" depth.

11) KEEP IT MOIST CONSTANTLY.

We in UT need to get more documented results of using various wheatgrass blends. There was a xeriscaping trend for a while, but in the end it seems that most people still want a nice lawn. We aren't quite desert enough to convince most people to fill their yard with rocks, sand, and bark. Hopefully we can demonstrate a really nice alternative to the water guzzling KBG.

BP does perform maintenance on his lawn... he just carefully picked grasses to minimize watering and other needed input...

Thanks

Ann 02 and I live in the high mountain deserts. It is a very arid climate but with large amounts of snowfall during a long winter. Still Jul-Sep are blisteringly hot with almost no precip. Wild temperature swings of 40-50deg each day. 100F during the day and a cold 50F at night is normal.

So there was, and still sort of might be, a heavy trend toward xeriscaping like you see in AZ and NV. Crushed stone, bark, etc... But in the end we do have enough access to water because of the snow pack that the conditions are good for growing KBG and fescue. Almost everyone I know who decided to go the xeriscape route has begrudgingly ended up going back to a nice KBG lawn in the end. They always find out that the only real advantage to xeriscaping is a lower water bill. Other than that it is actually more work than a nice lawn. Still, they usually wish that the lawn didn't require quite so much nurturing to keep it healthy during the hot months.

The ironic thing here about xeriscaping to save water... most people are charged for a minimum water usage and unless we are in a drought, they don't pass that minimum. So xeriscaping increases the maintenance and they get no cost savings.

It is fairy level overall, I would just call it "bumpy" - no major grading needed or anything. But it is somewhat covered with natural foliage that I have been killing off. I'm glad I read the advice on not tilling it, since I agree that will probably leave it with settling problems later. I really just need a way to get the foliage out of the way so I can smooth out the dirt. Any advice?

For that much area you might ask a local landscaper how much they would charge to surface grade the soil. They will have a tractor with a box blade on the back to scrape the soil surface, turn it over, and level it out. That would be no more than a morning's job for someone who knew what he was doing. Watch out for someone claiming they can do that with a bobcat or skid steer. Those machines will take a week to do the same job. If you are paying by the hour, you want the fast one. Here is a picture of a box blade in action...

What do you think? Can I just till the very top surface and then go from there? My next step would be rake out whatever dead material is left, and then move on to the infamous pallet drag.

Thanks!