You should read the label on the bag. I believe Eagle lasts about 14 days. You should also alternate between two or three fungicides of different modes of action to prevent fungal resistance. Heritage G is a good one, different from Eagle, and it lasts for about a month.

"How often to apply fungicide for prevention?"

Never. Over applying fungicides just kill off all the good fungi in the soil and on the grass and opens the door for a billion more problems.

The best preventative measures for fungal problems are all cultural. You should mow regularly with a sharp blade. You should water once a week with 1" of water. You should remove any low hanging branches from trees and anything else that is impeding air flow.

You should also try to make your soil as grass-friendly as possible. The healthier the grass, the less likely it is to suffer from any sort of infection. The best way to do this is with the addition of compost. A general sprinkling does wonders.

If you have had fungal problems in the past, you should also consider putting out a dusting of cornmeal. It encourages a beneficial fungus that help repel the fungal diseases.

...but I want to make the cool-season grass work if at all possible and am up for the challenge. :)

You are running up against the problems with growing northern grasses in the south. It takes so much water that you get fungal diseases. Your challenge is to water once a week deeply enough that the grass will survive until next week. More frequent apps of water challenge the beneficial fungi in the soil to survive and favor the disease causing fungi. Applications of preventative fungicide is your last resort, and it is a very short path to complete soil failure once you start that. When that does not work, your only conclusion to this test is that growing northern grasses in your climate and ecosystem (soils and microbes) is not possible.

billl is absolutely correct (as always). NEVER apply preventative fungicide. Your soil absolutely depends on the bacteria and fungi (among other microbes) which live there. By preventing the bad fungi, you are also preventing the beneficial fungi. When the beneficial fungi are gone, you will have other problems with the grass which will lead you to apply more and more fertilizer which will eventually kill all the grass...except the swamp grasses. Preventative fungicide is not the route to success.

There is a cultural reason for the disease fungi to take over in your lawn. Nature's normal situation is "no disease." In order for disease to take over, there is some reason the beneficial microbes are being suppressed. Billl and I are suggesting you are watering too frequently. Applying compost (no more than 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet) you can reestablish the beneficial microbes. By watering only once per week in the summer, you can go to a more nature-based system of watering (although Mother Nature always intervenes). IN GENERAL, once a week watering is the norm.

Thank you all for all the great information!

Unfortunately, it is too late to not apply fungicide. Hubby put it on the other night...I actually do not know whether it was a preventive or curative application...because we are getting some spots which are yellowing a bit...not sure if they're being caused by disease, fungus, heat & dryness (we had a dry spell with heat for a week or so there) or lack of fertilizer (last fertilized in early April).

The local lawn place said we should apply fungicide to avoid the problems we had the last two summers...

What do you all think of the fact that areas that get the most sun are the ones that seem to suffer most?

The problem we have with watering once a week is that we are on a slope and can't get enough water in the problem areas before it starts running off.

Last year before we added topsoil and reseeded the problem areas, I examined the turf that was remaining and was surprised that a majority of the grass was KBG (we planted a mix of 90% Defiance XRE fescue and 10% Midnight KBG.)) i was surprised that the KBG even survived here, let alone thrived--well sort of.

This is the area in Sept. 2009, one year old, after it's first SC summer. This is the most public part of lawn, it gets the most sun (southern exposure), and is struggling the most.
{{gwi:93027}}

Below is the same area in early Sept. 2010. Less than 50% grass surviving, overun by weeds, mostly spotted spurge and some crabgrass/goosegrass...
{{gwi:93029}}

This is the area we added 2" of good composty topsoil to last fall after killing everything with roundup--although it already had several inches (3-6) of good topsoil already. Then we re-seeded with a mix of Defiance XRE and Midnight.

We used a pre-emergent this spring, which we didn't do last year.

I guess the question that keeps nagging at me is, If this area gets the most sun, why would it be hardest hit with fungus? Or is fungus really the problem after all? Could it just be the searing summer heat?

Thoughts, anyone?

If I may ask, what part of S.C. are you located? I was born in Anderson and grew up in the Lexington/West Columbia area.

Between Aiken and Columbia...Lexington is 40 minutes away...

Most all turfgrass in your area is either centipede, bermuda, or bahia. There may be a sprinkling of zoysia or St. Augustine here and there. Cool season grasses simply cannot handle daytime high temperatures of 95-105 with 60% humidity day after day for 90-120 consecutive days.

You have a daunting task ahead of you, and I wish you full success in your endeavor. Good luck!

I really question whether no fungicide is possible. While it is true, no disease is the norm, our yards are not the norm. We have weed free yards that are significantly greener than the norm.

We have added pressures on the lawn by adding fertilizers, insecticides and herbicides. So, if we remove all those outside pressures that makes the yard fall into the norm, and then no fungicide is possible.

I think you glossed over the above facts and they are not only important, they are THE reason why fungicide is required.

In fact Bill, I have no low lying branches. I actually water less than a week and only water when my grass begins to show signs of drought. I water just before sunrise. I water 3/4" because the University of Florida recommended that amount and I tend to believe them first. I keep my fertilization to a minimum. I fertilize the recommended amount of 3.5 lbs/1000 square feet per year....and I still get fungus.

Therefore, I respectfully and 100% disagree with no fungicide is possible or necessary.

gatorengineer, I would like to explore this issue some more. There are a few factors that billl and I touched on back when this was a current thread. One is the idea of a healthy soil. A healthy soil has a huge population mix of microbes. Those are predominantly fungi but there are a lot of bacteria, microarthropods (microscopic insects), and protozoa. "Normal" soil is healthy soil. If normal was not healthy, then unhealthy soil would be normal. Clearly most soil is considered healthy. Even lawn with a disease might be considered healthy as long as the turf was strong enough to withstand the disease. An example is the "dog barf" fungus which is ugly as sin but perfectly harmless to turf.

Another aspect of lawn care that I practice, and I believe billl does to, is to do as little harm to the soil biology as possible. That means we never use insecticide, herbicide, or fungicide (above all). These are the pressures you suggest are in universal use by all lawn care providers. They are not. One of the things I learned my first years here at GardenWeb is that most of what I was doing to the lawn was counterproductive. Now if I do have a pest issue, I target specific issues and only those issues are treated. For example if there is a dandelion in the yard, I do not treat the entire yard with herbicide. I spot treat the dandelion (not the best example because due to other practices I never get dandelions).

You also mentioned fertilizer as something we all use. Hopefully that is a universal truth. I believe most lawns look much better when fertilized. The fertilizer I use feeds my population of microbes rather than force feeding the grass plants. My fertilizer choice is one or more of the following: alfalfa pellets, corn gluten meal, corn meal, soybean meal, cottonseed meal, and used coffee grounds. These ground up nuts, beans, seeds and grains provide food for the soil microbes. The reason Mother Nature was able to keep all the plants alive for billions of years is that the soil microbes digest dead stuff like these meals and convert it into food for the plants. If you never apply any of the organic fertilizers mentioned, then your soil microbes will consume themselves. If you apply something organic only occasionally, that is much better than never. The microbes cannot live off the salt in the synthetic fertilizers. They need real food. Once you have depleted the beneficial microbes in your soil, then those microbes which consume other microbes will dominate leading to disease. As you suggest, you will start to need insecticides, herbicides, more fertilizers, and then fungicides. Why? Because you so not have healthy soil. The beneficial microbes are gone and the disease microbes are in control.

Having said all that, I have been fully organic since 2002. I have used zero pounds (or ounces) of insecticide and have never seen a damaging insect. My suspicion is the revived population of lizards, geckos, toads and birds have something to do with that. I have used zero ounces of herbicide (I do have a few pesky broadleaf weeds which I have been able to pluck). I occasionally do get brown patch disease which I have been 100% successful in treating with corn meal. Others whom I respect and trust have not had this same success with corn meal. For that reason alone I have a strong interest in turf disease and why certain lawns seem to resist the solutions which billl and I suggest.

dchall,

I cannot speak to the efficacy of your program. But, what you have given is an entirely different lawn management program which bill gave only a small portion of. He answered a small portion of the person's question but left out, as you have pointed out, critical components. My comment still stands 100% correct without your further and more complete answer and that assumes that everything in my lawn and your lawn are equal such as having St. Augustine which is notoriously more needy than Fescue.

With that said, I will explore your lawn management practice, but I have serious reservations about at least one item. One of which is the unecessary need for insecticides and only on an as needed basis. In your program the chinch bugs and mole crickets in my neighbor's lawns will think, "Look at that healthy grass and it looks like a large container of candy. I won't go over there because he has healthy soil." It just seems too perfect. Also, you are giving a regime that is organic. Before we came alone, the world was 100% organic and these bugs were around then and they survived. Therefore, with 100% organic lawn these pest still survived. Maybe you live out in the middle of no where and your lawn is void of suburban pressure from poorly managed lawns next to you. Maybe all your lawns around you are well managed and that helps your program work. There are several other factors that could play into the success of your and bill's lawns that you might be overlooking that other lawn's don't have.

Now mind you, my neighbors don't put out fungicide and all the other chemicals. They just let whatever wants to grow, grow. Because of that, they have lost significant amounts of their St. Augustine and now have weeds. That means they are 100% organic and yet they still have these problems only to a lesser extent. These problems spill over into my lawn. I have toads and lizards all the time in my lawn and I still have these problems. Maybe your plan gives the lawn the edge which creates all the benefits you describe...I don't know.

While I've been proven wrong before and I'm a firm believer in the scientific method, I'll test your ideas out on my lawn in a small backyard portion and determine its efficacy over the next couple of years. I'm cautiously optimistic because I would much rather use your program than one that is a series of chemicals after another. I've tried other hoky poky schemes before including ones in published book. They all come back to the same thing...they rarely work.

Here's hoping I'm wrong on this one!

Another problem I forgot to bring up is the idea of not using a herbicide (post and/or pre emergient). As soon as I put this down, I will no longer have healthy soil as you have not directly said but you have eluded to. I cannot possibly fathom how this healthy soil will keep out all the weeds and bahia that surround my yard. What brought this up was I walked out and saw no less than 5 different weeds with their seeds blowing in the wind. It's just beyond imagination that a healthy lawn with healthy soil will magically know which plants I want to grow and which ones I don't want to grow. And to keep with the my early post on quoting the thinking of the plant, I came up with another quote that the seeds will be thinking, "Wow! this is nice healthy soil that feeds all these other plants perfectly and gives them what they need and is also the same things I like. Well, I don't like it. I'll lay here dormant." That seems backwards to me.

It's true a good well maintained lawn that is mowed often and at high levels is the best weed killer known to man. I do this. I mow with a sharp blade and cut no more than 1/3 of the grass blade height. I set my mower height to 4". So while that might be your next item of discussion, I'm fully aware of that, but in areas of the lawn that are hardy and very thick and lush, I still get weeds so the only thing different is your health soil theory. Maybe the nuts and other meals you have will not allow seeds to germinate (even though in 100% organic environments seeds germinate all the time).

Again, all too hoky poky for me. But I'll try it once.

Gatorengineer: I'm posting to say that I think that everything that David is saying is true, in my opinion. David and I post on many of the same topics and know each other, but I'm not saying this to create a "popularity vote". While I'm more into soil management and David more toward organics, there is a LOT of overlap in our approaches.

I was a believer that synthetics were a great idea for many, many years. But as time went on, I found that it took larger amounts of synthetics and more and more frequent applications to achieve the top-level look that I was going after. I call it the "yo-yo effect" - increasing periods of "crashes" with shorter and shorter good-looking periods. I wanted to try to find a way to break the cycle. I was tentative at first, but saw results after a year of following some of David's approach. I fit it into my own soil-management ideas and committed to it. It has been about five years now. The lawn and gardens look better than ever and I have zero "crashes". The lawn is thick and I haven't used a fungicide on it in four years. Other than a few bouts of Powdery Mildew (easily addressed without chemical fungicides), I have had zero fungal problems. The grass is so dense that it is like mowing steel wool. Now, I don't go as far as David and say that I never "fertilize". I use a combination of tons of Milorganite and some Soybean Meal.

Trust me that an attempt to test the ideas is worth your time and effort, and is definitely not "hoky". I have pictures of what you get after five years of it, if that would help you believe it...

I'm not here to question your success or question that it works for you. I'm here because I question the approach from a logical stand point. Here is what someone with more knowledge than me says on the subject:

https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs/urbanhort/archive/2010/06/30/cornmeal-myth-busted.aspx

If you read the comments below, this is what I think is important:

"...while I appreciate you may have had success with cornmeal, the fact remains that it does not have repeatable, reliable efficacy (as demonstrated in the scientific literature). That's the only criterion we Garden Professors can use to guide recommendations on any practice or product."

She says that SCIENTIFIC research has shown that the results are not repeatable. So I wonder how they cannot get repeatable results, but you and two others can. It makes me raise one eyebrow and take a step back. Later comments show people with success such as yours. It all makes me just wonder if it will work for me. So, I'll take a 10'x10' area that I will put in the middle of the back yard to keep it away from any other potential sprays. I'll see how it does and hopefully over the years report back.

I personally never feel that anyone is "ganging" up on me. I am just a firm believer in trust but verify. I'll trust what you are saying, but I will verify with my own scientific method. There is WAY too much misinformation on the web.

I also just noticed you are not in Florida. I assume you don't have St. Augustine and I'm certain your fungal pressures are less than mine in Florida. What kind of grass do you have?

dchall is in zone 8 bill in in zone 7, I'm in 9b. Not much of a difference, but that could be the reason for your successes and why it might not work for me (assuming it doesn't).

And again, I'm not seeing anyone talking about the outside pressures on your lawns. What do your neighbors do? I swear, I have the two worst neighbors and then I have a retention pond and that is littered with weeds.

This year I've had to put down herbicides because the bahia got out of control. I was spending an hour a day and getting no where. Of course with herbicides comes stressed grass which leads to more fungus. Long story short, I must continue with some of the non organic measures on parts of the lawn just to get it under control.

As an FYI, my lawn did not crash and for 3 years it never crashed. I moved out for 1.5 years and a renter crashed it for me. I'm now 2 years into getting it back to the way it was....so frustrating. I personally never had this much trouble with fungus before. I had one of the best lawns and I put down fungicide two-three times a year.

I've changed my watering too. I now only water when the lawn tells me it needs to be watered. This should help with fungus problems. Also, this year it was rained almost everyday Since Tropical Storm Beryl. I've had the sprinklers off since April. So this year is a little different than most.

Alright, there are a couple of different issues here, and mixing them up means nothing gets answered. Let's look at them one at a time.

Cornmeal/Corn/Corn Gluten Meal: I don't believe in any of them for weed control. But that is kind of a funky argument that you're making. I wouldn't paint the entire synthetic set of offerings because there are a few products that don't work. Why is it fair to paint the entire organic or soil-based approach over a few products that don't meet the expectations of the people that promote them?

Climate: Everyone thinks that they have the worst situation on Earth, and points to that as their reason for lack of success. That doesn't mean that an approach that uses the approach that nature uses can't work in multiple places. Guess what? Nature feeds your Florida palm tree the same way it feeds my Maple tree. And synthetic fertilizers weren't developed for the specific purposes of lawn feeding anyway - they were developed to assist in intensive mass-production of agricultural crops.

By the way, I do have a place in Florida. Key Largo. The techniques do work in Florida. It's tough (and wet) to get much farther south than that.

You can use whatever you want and whatever works for you. But there is absolutely no scientist that will claim that a chemical fungicide doesn't kill beneficial fungi in the soil along with the pathogenic ones. It will mean that unless you break the cycle, the use of a fungicide this year will virtually guarantee that you'll need it next year, since the beneficial fungi won't keep the pathogenic ones in check. This fact doesn't bother the manufacturers of fungicides one bit.

I'm happy that your solution works for you. I don't use it, but I don't call your solution "hoky-poky". It sounds a little dismissive to think that you call other people's solutions quackery without any experience with them.

I'm not the one making the argument that Cornmeal is for weed control. Others on the forum say they use cornmeal and a few other things and they don't need fungicide, herbicide or insecticide. So the "funky" argument is not mine, it is yours, bill's and dchall's. And just so you know it is your argument, here are the quotes to connect the dots:

dchall, "That means we never use insecticide, herbicide, or fungicide....I have used zero ounces of herbicide (I do have a few pesky broadleaf weeds which I have been able to pluck). I occasionally do get brown patch disease which I have been 100% successful in treating with corn meal..."

Andy, "Gatorengineer: I'm posting to say that I think that everything that David is saying is true, in my opinion."

Not sure it can get more clear than that.

This is part of the scientific process. You question results found in different places and wonder if you can apply those same items and get the same results for your situation.

And, if it bothers you that I called it hoke poky, call me skeptical. I've tried other such similar solutions and they all have ended in the same result. So if I'm skeptical, then that would be experience and wisdom. If you want me to blindly believe what you say on here and two other posters that I have no clue who they are...then that is insanity at best.

To get combative with a person that has openly embraced your idea is not a great way to get me to try it. But in your eyes I'm weird because I use chemicals that have a proven track record, are supported with testing, are approved by the government for that purpose, are recommended by scholars, are used by golf course managers, and applying products to the a lawn that are not approved for that purpose is questionably illegal....clearly the weight of evidence is against you.

I don't know why you're interested in twisting my words to make some promote some agenda item you seem intent on making. I was speaking in general terms about David's approach, and trying to encourage you to give it an objective test. I think skeptical is good, and was saying that I tried it and am pleased.

Now I remember why I stopped doing volunteer soil test result interpretations on this site.

I apologize that I wasted your time.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I firmly believe the only reason synthetic fertilizers are still around is after WWII the government pushed, prodded, and cajoled all the universities to keep the production of ammonium nitrate in production into eternity. When you need bombs, you can't just whip them up out of thin air.

Dr Chalker-Scott and Dr Parsons are two of the biggest agricultural goofs in the industry. Chalker-Scott has these so-called myths that she sets out to debunk. Well, they weren't myths until she proclaimed them to be. Secondly she never uses science to disprove anything. If there was science behind her arguments, she would be the first to be printing it. The same with Parsons. He has nothing. Parsons is from San Antonio so he's been a thorn in our side for 30 years or more. They are both anti-organic and not interested in any research into organics. Parsons is one of the reasons Texas A&M horticulture is subject to so much ridicule around the state. I'm not surprised these two found each other.

So, gatorengineer it sounds like you might be an engineer. Me too. BS in aero and MS in what amounts to operations research with a lot of control theory and a minor in human physiology. After leaving engineering I took up soil biology as a hobby. Why? Because I tried corn meal (not corn gluten meal) to cure the fungal problems I had on a rose bush. "What could it harm," I thought. That was in 2002. To this day that rose has not had an aphid. Prior to that day it was literally coated in aphids. I put out about half a pound (all we had because it went rancid). A week later all the fungus was gone along with the aphids. With that personal experience I figured I need to try it elsewhere. I put it on the lawn and in 3 weeks I had completely reestablished a thriving turf where before I had been in the yo-yo spiral dive effect Andy mentioned. At that point I was sold on organics. I think anyone would have been.

I have a house in San Antonio and one in George West, TX. San Antonio soil is crushed limestone with a pH of 8. My best grass is where I refilled a wash-out area with beach sand. Shade is the distinguishing feature in my San Antonio landscape. I have several giant live oak trees shading the front and elms in the back. The house in George West has a very sandy soil. I have some set out to have tested. That is where I'm experimenting with withholding water, fertilizer, and no mowing. No mowing is the starting point. The GW lawn is surrounded by pasture growing King Ranch bluestem. KRBS looks like this

{{gwi:93030}}

{{gwi:93031}}

That stuff will flat take over when given a chance. That's why it was developed. As a grass it is not bad. The problem is the gigantic seed head stems. Lordy! It started invading my lawn back before I bought the house. I have done nothing to stop it except let the St Augustine grow. In some areas the St Aug had died out (sprinkler issues). I have it coming back in and without the KRBS. All I want to do is get the St Aug thriving up against the KR and see which one dominates. I believe it will be the St Aug but it is way too early to know. The KR only grows a few inches high and the St Aug is upwards of 32 inches in some spots. I think if I can get the St Aug up high against and into the KR, it will die out. This is what very tall St Augustine looks like.

{{gwi:79606}}

That's about 25 inches high. That particular location has not been irrigated since October. It got a little water this week after showing slight signs of drought stress for several days. The grass is not very dense in that one spot. It is at least twice as dense out front. I still have to water the short grass weekly but as it gets taller, I'm stretching out the watering frequency. Temps are in the high 90s during the day and high 70s at night.

Here is another picture. This was posted here last year. The poster also wanted to test my theories. He scattered alfalfa pellets onto his zoysia lawn. Scroll through slowly and see if you can tell where he fertilized.

{{gwi:79605}}

This picture demonstrates that organic fertilizer can improve color, density, and growth. How it works in your lawn is yet to be seen. The picture was taken by mrmumbles 4 weeks after he fertilized. Once you get density like that, weed pressure stops.

Andy, you seem very unsure of yourself, yet dchall is confident and calm.

My "agenda" is quite simple, to flush out questions that I have (and others that will follow) to prove or disprove this soil management idea. I'm thinking of others that follow me who will ask some of the same questions. They will be critical, as I have been. You need someone to be critical to get them on board. It would be nice for the answers to be available right in front of them and not have to go through all the research.

If questioning your approach bothers you, then I would remove yourself from the topic because dchall is doing a much better job of plainly presenting the information and letting the facts speak for themselves. If you think I twisted your words, then your post was unclear. I read it again and I'm baffled by your later post. Maybe what you are trying to say isn't come through very well in written form. I just don't know. I stand 100% by my post.

As far as Dr Chalker-Scott and Dr Parsons, I personally don't know them. I do know I can look at Chalker-Scott's CV online and see I have far less schooling in the field than her. I also do not hold a PHD. Yes dchall I am an engineer and I hold a JD degree as well. I deal with lawyers and the forensic field on a daily basis. So the process I'm following here is no different than a workday for me. This is how we prove to our lawyers our opinion. Sometimes we are wrong, but the facts speak for themselves. With that said, I can attest to the fact that their are several "goofs" with extensive knowledge and CV's, so I'll take your word on it with reservations.

I've taken some pictures of an area in my backyard and will try it out. I also stumbled across your soil management post and will give that here so this provides and nice firm and solid area for future discussions.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/organic/2004020829016580.html

In this test area of my lawn, I will put down some cornmeal and alfalfa pellets and just let it go from there. I have it better defined that just the pictures shows. That was just an overall for reference purposes. I'll keep all the other stuff out and let's see where it goes. I'm not in a hurry, I'll give it at least a year unless by next spring I see serious decline in that section of the yard.

Just to rule out the possibility of water issues, I'll recheck the water amount next time it waters and give that here too. The lawn in this area is not stressed either. It does show some fungus, but nothing major. Not sure there is much else to do other than wait and see the results.

I am FAR from "unsure of myself". On a different forum, I have nearly 10,000 posts about detailed soil biology and soil chemistry recommendations and discussions. I just have little tolerance for people that desire to pick apart and selectively quote my words that were a general backing of David's approach to make it seem like a specific endorsement of a specific item. I'll spend my time on someone that really is interested in giving something a try. I wish you all the best with what works for you.

I would much rather talk about soil and grass than nitpick the psychological or professional motivations of the personalities involved. Can't we just try to learn as much as possible from our unique experiences? I believe Andy really is a guy you should listen to. I consider him to be on any list of the top 5 online lawn gurus no matter what the topic.

Similar to your experience with goofballs with advanced degrees, I worked in rocket science and in medical research for 27 years. Seen my share. By the way, Andy is not one of the goofballs.

The 27 years of experience I mentioned was with the US Air Force both as an officer and as a civilian employee. The last 7 years of that I was at a high level office in the jet engine community. Most of what I did was looking for better ways to do engine maintenance to save money. I called myself a 'best practices' engineer. When I left there it was natural to continue looking for best practices in life. I found GardenWeb and found that my 40 years of gardening experience was not a collection of best practices. In fact I had to forget almost everything I knew about lawns. It was a tough battle as one by one, my previous nuggets of knowledge were smashed. In light of my previous career path, I took the knowledge learned here and condensed it into two packages. One has become the Organic Lawn Care FAQ. You can find that posted in the Organic Gardening Forum at the bottom of the FAQ list. The other 'publication' is the 1-2-3 of lawn care which I post here periodically for noobs or people who seem to be doing everything wrong. You are obviously doing things right in your lawn but I'll post it here just so we all have the same understanding of what the Internet seems to proclaim as the Universal Truth of Lawn Care.

Basics of Lawn Care

After reading numerous books and magazines on lawn care, caring for lawns at seven houses in my life, and reading numerous forums where real people write in to discuss their successes and failures, I have decided to side with the real people and dispense with the book and magazine authors. I don't know what star their planet rotates around but it's not mine. With that in mind, here is the collected wisdom of the Internet savvy homeowners and lawn care professionals summarized in a few words. If you follow the advice here you will have conquered at least 50% of all lawn problems. Once you have these three elements mastered, then you can worry about weeds (if you have any), dog spots, and striping your lawn. But if you are not doing these three things, they will be the first three things suggested for you to correct.

Watering
Water deeply and infrequently. Deeply means at least an hour in every zone, all at once. Infrequently means monthly during the cool months and no more than weekly during the hottest part of summer. Do not spread this out and water for 10 minutes every day. If your grass looks dry before the month/week is up, water longer next time. If that does not work, then you might have to water more than once per week during the summer's hottest period. Deep watering grows deep, drought resistant roots. Infrequent watering allows the top layer of soil to dry completely which kills off many shallow rooted weeds.

You will have to learn to judge when to water your own lawn. If you live in Las Vegas your watering will be different than if you live in Vermont. Adjust your watering to your type of grass, humidity, wind, and soil type. It is worth noting that this technique is used successfully by professionals in Phoenix, so...just sayin.' The other factors make a difference. If you normally water 1 inch per week and you get 1/2 inch of rain, then adjust and water only 1/2 inch that week.

Mowing
Every week mulch mow at the highest setting on your mower. Most grasses are the most dense when mowed tall. However, bermuda, centipede, and bent grasses will become the most dense when they are mowed at the lowest setting on your mower. In fact there are special mowers that can mow these grasses down to 1/16 inch. Dense grass shades out weeds, keeps the soil cooler, and uses less water than thin grass. Tall grass can feed the deep roots you developed in #1 above. Tall grass does not grow faster than short grass nor does it look shaggy sooner. Once all your grass is at the same height, tall grass just looks plush.

Fertilizing
Fertilize regularly. I fertilize 5 times per year using organic fertilizer. Which fertilizer you use is much less important than numbers 1 and 2 above. Follow the directions on the bag and do not overdo it. Too little is better than too much. At this point you do not have to worry about weed and feed products - remember at this point you are just trying to grow grass, not perfect it. Besides once you are doing these three things correctly, your weed problems should go away without herbicide.

I am the moderator of three organic lawn care forums and regular contributor here at GW. Recently I was asked if I had any interest in joining the field editor staff and blog for a printed magazine. Somehow I have managed to not get banned from Gardenweb like many (MANY) of the gurus who were here when I arrived. I believe I am still here by simple accident, because I have been banned from other forums.

Something else I have learned over the years is that horticulture research is hard to do. One problem when comparing organically grown plants/grasses with chemical is the difference in the soils. Problem the organic plots have been treated with chemicals for decades. How long does it take for the biology in those soils to become "normal" so there is a proper population of microbes? Secondly once you have a proper soil, how do you water it? Do you water every time the chemically treated grass needs water or when the organic grass needs water? Ideally the organic grass will not need as much water due to fungal populations helping bring moisture from very deep in the soil. In this scenario you are either under watering or over watering one grass or the other.

I still maintain that proper watering is the number 1 factor in great lawn care. Proper mowing is a close number 2. Proper fertilizing is a distant number 3. Unfortunately improper fertilizing can wipe out the positive effects of 1 and 2. By shifting to an organic approach, there is no way to improperly fertilize short of smothering the lawn under a mountain of fertilizer. MorpheusPA has demonstrated (on another forum) that applications of well over 1,000 pounds of organic fertilizer per 1,000 square feet over the course of a growing season will not harm the lawn. If you are curious that requires applications of 40 pounds per 1,000 every weekend. Following on Morph's coattails, I have demonstrated that the more conservative 180 pounds per 1,000 square feet is no problem. I like to show pix of Morph's lawn so here is one from July 2010.

{{gwi:93032}}

That is a Kentucky bluegrass neighborhood in Eastern Pennsylvania. Next door is the contractor grade installation. Morph has renovated with elite varieties and gone to extremes (like bringing in Andy to consult) to tune up his soil chemistry. As far as I know he waters when the grass needs it. 2010 was the year he went a little crazy with the organic fertilizer apps. When you ask Morph what is the secret to success, he will tell you it was not the seed and not the fertilizer: it was getting the soil chemistry corrected. He has achieved the same sort of amazing results on his mother's contractor grade KBG lawn.

So anyway, your plot looks like it has a great start. Just water, mow, and fertilize and see how it goes.

I'm personally way beyond worrying about Andy. I wasn't worried about him about 2 posts ago.

I miss Fescue. It is just a lot greener than St. Augustine and more comfortable to walk on....well such is life.

I made up my test area. It gets the most sun and has the greatest weed pressures. If it works here, it should be good any where.

My test area is about 12'x15'. I used 10 lbs of alfalfa pellets which is probably high, but I wanted to start off with a large amount. I'll back it down to 2.5-5 lbs for the test area after this. I also added 2 lbs of cornmeal, 25 lbs of cow manure just to get the little guys going. I won't need to water for another 4-5 days so I won't check my watering amount until then. Last I checked it was 1".

Gator, save yourself some money with your next alfalfa application. Alfalfa contains Triacontanol, a growth hormone that has a strange way of behaving. At around 20-25 lbs or so of alfalfa per 1000 sq ft, you get the maximum benefit of the Triacontanol. Above that amount, the effect of the Triacontanol flattens and then reverses. It won't hurt anything, but it won't get you the best effect for your $$$.

Agree with Andy. 3-4 pounds would have been puh-LENTY of any of those ingredients.

Where did the cow manure come into this? For one it stinks! Modern organics avoids cow manure almost like that plague. That is old school organics. In fact manure predates Rodale of the 1940s. Rodale made popular the idea that composted manure was a much more manageable medium for the organic garden. Straight manure has the odor thing going against it, but it also has the nasty tendency to kill things it touches. Lots and lots of people have condemned organic gardening simply because they either smothered their lawn with too much manure or they used the fresh stuff and it was dead overnight. Your application of 25 pounds was plenty light enough not to smother it. Let's hope it does not kill it with a hot dose of nitrogen.

Just to finish the theme of modern organics: in the 1990s it was discovered that tens of thousands of species of microbes lived in the soil. Before that it was suspected that as many as 50 species lived there. Once that discovery was made, people like Dr Elaine Ingham spread the word about this complicated food chain and coined the term, Soil Food Web. Since then compost has fallen out of favor and the ground grains are taking over as the modern approach to organic fertilizer. If you want to read more about soil biology, read this link. Get comfortable because with all the pictures, it is about 50 pages.

You should try walking in my lawn. You don't walk on it, you walk through it.

Instead of Alfalfa, what would you recommend?

Sorry, I had not updated and saw dchall's post. I'll use less.

I'd suggest that anyone getting into the use of grains, etc go slowly at first - you need to build up the soil biology that has been starved for a long time. The use of synthetics feeds the grass directly instead of feeding the soil biology which in turn feeds the grass. The biology declines without food. Supplying large quantities of organics without a healthy soil biology means that they may sit there and rot (stink) without being incorporated into the soil. With food they recover to reasonable levels in months, and huge levels in a year or so. When I first started using organics, the soil could only incorporate mulched tree leaves (in the grass) at 1/4" per month. Now I can process nearly an inch a week. Some people that have gotten the soil biology working well report that dog droppings just disappear in a few days.

One of my staples in establishing a healthy soil biology is Milorganite. Easily applied and with nice levels of Iron, it is a great bridge between synthetics and grains.

For grains, I recommend seeing what is available at reasonable prices in your area. Where I live, Soy Bean Meal is available at a reasonable price. In the South, many people find Cottonseed Meal more reasonably priced. While corn products are great for building good levels of organic matter in the soil, it is fairly low as a Nitrogen supplier. I find its use as a weed control mild at best. It IS however the favorite food of Trichoderma, which prey upon many of the fungi that cause fungal diseases. Over time these Trichoderma will make your lawn quite resistant to fungal disease, but it is long-term and proactive - this doesn't mean that dumping a bit of corn is going to stop a raging fungal infection in its tracks. Using a fungicide after you have established a good soil biology will kill the good fungi with the bad, effectively setting the clock back to Midnight. I think this was part of David's original point.

Don't expect organics and grains to behave like synthetics - there is no 72-hour flush of green growth. At the beginning you will see effects at 3-4 weeks, with that timeframe shortening as the biology improves.

Here's a pictures after 4 weeks. I had been gone all this week and came home and noticed a pretty significant difference between the organic portion and the traditionally fertilized yard. I also fertilized the traditional portion just before I left. Even my wife said, "it looks greener, taller and healthier." The difference is easy to see. I've had issues with the back of the yard not greening as much as the front. I only say that because I believe the difference would not be seen if it was in the front yard. This doesn't mean I'm disappointed, I just don't want someone to look and think my yard is greener than a traditionally fertilized lawn.

Overall, I'm happy with everything so far. I've had to do something to the rest of the yard once since I did this to the organic side. It is cheaper on the organic side and it actually looks about the same and in some places it looks better (see picture).

To keep with the theme of this thread, I have not used fungicide; however, the grass in this test area is nearly free of fungus. I did use cornmeal, but I'm unsure if it is because of that or just because of the organic benefits. I did find a few blades of grass with fungus, but it was so small that it was insignificant. It is much more free than the rest of the lawn even though I'm using fungicide in the rest of the lawn. In addition, I've used no other chemicals in the test area.

I did test and I am watering 3/4"-1" no more than once a week. It rained here 2 days ago (less than 3/4") but I don't think I'll need to water for another 4-5 days which is about a week and a half with a small watering in the middle. It's amazing how long the grass can go without water once you really baby it and get it going.

As a side note--Changing to once a week water is a delicate proposition at first because the grass is not ready for it. I found a few areas that were stressed. I would just hit them with water individually and they are now responding favorably. I was making this transition before I bumped into this thread, but there are still a few spots that need work both from me and because of other unrelated issues.

I'll keep you posted.

10 week update.

AMAZING! AMAZING! AMAZING! AMAZING! AMAZING! AMAZING!

The grass looks phenomenal and I've done little to it. The picture just doesn't do it justice. Even friends who came over notice a significant difference. We've had significant rain here in Florida, so I've not watered in 2 months, but the grass looks fine with no weeds. The fungus is gone too. The dead grass is less than the other areas to--except when I mow you cannot tell a difference between the two areas.

Here's the kicker, I'm a believer. Yes, it works even after I called it all kinds of names (see above). This works, it's cheaper than the traditional way, and it's easier.

How's that for a compliment?

Sorry to revive an old thread, but this seems like the right place for me to jump into the forum.

I have been considering going organic for a while, but have been skeptical. Reading through this thread has convinced me to give it a try.

My problem is that for the past two years, I have been battling a tough problem with take all patch. It will crash out my entire front yard. The only way I can even come close to keeping it in check is by alternating with Heritage and 3336F every 2 weeks. But, after reading the thread, I want to give cornmeal/alfalfa a shot. But, I am currently in the first day of the disease being visual where there is the darkening of leaves and the first signs of browning out. FWIW (I know, shame on me), I just applied fungicide this morning. Should I continue with the fungicide treatment to keep it at bay until the end of the season, or do I have a shot at keeping this in check if I go organic now? I didn't catch I until too late last summer...it hit while I was out of town on vacation. I lost nearly 50% of the front lawn, and I don't want to put myself in a position of having that happen again this year. If I any of you organic pushers :-) think I can fend off my disease by going organic now, should I wait a couple of weeks (due to today's application of 3336F), or will I benefit more by starting to apply it today?

FWIW, I have good density, cut 4" tall weekly, sharp blade, no obvious insect issues (except fleas...see below), water 1" when grass begins to show stress. I do have chickweed in a few areas, but that's only where there is a still a little bit of thinning from last summer's disease.

Unfortunately, I will likely have to continue to use insecticide to keep the flea population in check due to pets. It sucks, but unless you can convince me that there's an organic solution for fleas in my yard, I really don't have a choice. I am surrounded by woods/fields that are heavily populated with deer...and those deer roam my yard nightly...unfortunately, this means fleas.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Somehow I must have gotten busy last year after gatorengineer posted his final messages. Would like to know how it looks after a year and what he's done about the use of -icides. It was interesting rereading how his adamant opinion about the importance of fungicides subsided only slightly to skepticism about organics and then moved to complete acceptance and enthusiasm about it. I'm curious to know what he now thinks of Linda Chalker-Scott and her academic criticism versus his achievements with his lawn. I have done a lot more reading and helped a lot more people over the year, too. I am willing to admit that there are a few issues which are not well addressed by an organic approach, but the general use of organics will alleviate so much of that pressure. As gatorengineer said, it is cheaper and easier.

So gatorengineer totally, and successfully hijacked this thread once, now comes Chrissomebody to do it again. I'll go if you want. The topic remains a discussion about using fungicide which turned into another successful organic approach.

In all that discussion we never got around to dicusssing how the corn meal works. It works by attracting a predatory fungus called trichoderma (try kuh DER muh). The normally small soil population of trichoderma builds up on the fungus which decomposes the corn meal. Once that original fungus is gone, the trichoderma takes on other fungal species it can find. Since the fungal disease is right there at the surface, it becomes the target. The process takes about 3 weeks to see results.

Having said that, since you have already applied a fungicide, you have likely killed off the normally low population of trichoderma. I would watch the grass very carefully for any sign that the fungicide is not working. It should work instantly to stop the spread of the disease. You might need to put out markers in the lawn to show the very edge of the problem area. Watch them daily to see of the grass is improving or getting better or worse. You might take pictures for reference. You'll see spots on the grass bladed indicating the presence of the fungus. Normal St Augustine has no spots at all, anywhere. Here is a picture of healthy St Aug.

{{gwi:79715}}

If you find that the disease has not stopped, then immediately apply excellent, finished compost at a rate of no more than 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet to restore a healthy colony of all the beneficial microbes you need. If you get your compost in bags, allow it a few days to air out. Just dump it on bare soil somewhere and let it sit. Compost in bags gets smelly mold in it. Resting will allow that smelly mold to be consumed by the beneficial fungi in the compost. Water the compost down and let it sit on the lawn for a few days. The microbes from the compost will wash into the soil. Then apply the corn meal at 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Water only enough to wash the corn meal off the blades and down onto the soil.

Popping in to let y'all know I'm following this thread with great interest. Please keep up the great info, no matter if it's hijacking ;-)

Maybe I'll be the next hijacker, with our new and first ever for us tiny lawn in a challenging location.

I'm hoping to revive this thread… I'm starting to think about lawn care for the coming Spring especially around fungicide prevention - my lawn got progressively worse with fungicide end of Fall so I'm keen to get ahead of it early Spring… I have not applied compost to the lawn previously and from what I am reading from other posts this appears to be a great benefit - I have however applied cornmeal at the beginning of Spring the last 2 years as a pre-emergent which I believe has worked and it seems to be a great fertilizer to start the season off with… so should I put down compost first (exactly when?) and then how long after the cornmeal? Besides good lawn care practices anything else? (I was watering less last year but I think I didn't water long enough each time so will remedy that this year)

It's always best to start your own thread rather than reviving old ones. Where are you located?

western MA

I don't know what you're reading about compost. We haven't talked about it here in years.

Corn meal is not a preemergent. I believe it has antifungal properties, but it's definitely not a preemergent herbicide. Corn meal is an organic fertilizer with low protein (nitrogen) but otherwise good for the soil.

Corn GLUTEN meal is advertised to have preemergent qualities. I don't believe it. I've used CGM on a monthly basis throughout a full season and weed pressure seemed constant. CGM does make a great fertilizer.

Improper watering is often the reason for fungal disease. Here's more on that topic.

Watering: Deep and infrequent is the mantra for watering. This is for all turf grass all over the place. Deep means 1 inch all at one time. Put some cat food or tuna cans around the yard, and time how long it takes your sprinkler(s) to fill all the cans. Memorize that time. That will be the time you water from now on. My hose, sprinkler and water pressure takes 8 full hours to fill the cans. Your time will likely be less. I like gentle watering. As for watering frequency, that depends on the daytime air temperature. With temps in the 90s, deep water once per week. With temps in the 80s, deep water once every 2 weeks. With temps in the 70s, deep water once every 3 weeks. With temps below 70, deep water once a month. Note that you have to keep up with quickly changing temps in the spring and fall. This deep and infrequent schedule works in Phoenix and in Vermont, so it should work for you. The reason for deep and infrequent is to grow deeper, more drought resistant roots and to allow the soil to dry completely at the surface for several days before watering again. If it rains, reset your calendar to account for the rainfall.

I’ve been using CGM in my yard for about five years. The grass looks great!! I cut it very short for my dogs. The impetus to switch to CGM was to protect my pets from herbicides. Have you ever seen the Scotts commercial with the Scotty? Scottish Terriers are extremely sensitive to herbicides and Scott’s advertising is very deceptive.

In any case my front lawn, fertilized with Scott’s and cut to a longer length does not look nearly as good and requires frequent treatments. Sometimes I fertilize with the CGM only once a year. I do have to spot treat the weeds. Next year the front will be treated organically as well.