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Want to take my lawn to the next level

Posted by timtsb NJ - 7A (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 0:12

I'm a new member of the forum and new homeowner. I've done a lot of reading on the forum and asked a few basic questions I've had, but I'm looking for some guidance from the veterans for the future of my lawn.

Some history:
We purchased our home on the Jersey shore last year. We removed 10 trees and graded the yard (primarily the front yard) to alleviate some drainage issues. We installed an irrigation system and had the parts of the yard that had been stripped down to dirt seeded with Tall Fescue in September. I'm happy with the results so far, but I really want to have the best lawn in the neighborhood so I still have work to do. We have approx 7500 sq ft of grass. I mow at 3.25". I'm currently honing my watering skills - I put tuna cans out last night and found I'm only watering about 1/2" per cycle, so I'm planning on doubling the watering times and only watering once per week.

What I've done so far:
-Fall 2013 - 20 lbs Scott's Turfbuilder Winterguard
-3/23/14 - 20 lbs Scott's Turfbuilder with HALTS crabgrass preventer
-5/25/14 - 20 lbs Scott's Turfbuilder Weed & Feed
-5/28/14 - Soil test from Rutgers (soil for test was collected a few days prior to previous fertilizer application). Results - pH 5.77, Phosphorus 543, Potassium 236, Magnesium 442, Calcium 3060, Zinc 15.52, Copper 9.94, Manganese 21.35, Boron .35, Iron 303.60.
-6/14/14 - 16 lbs Jonathan Green Mag-I-Cal
-7/6/14 - 16 lbs Jonathan Green Mag-I-Cal
-7/7/14 - 108 lbs Milorganite

I've had to do my fair share of weed pulling. In early spring, we had a lot of onion grass. A bit later, we had Star of Bethlehem. Now I'm battling crabgrass. I'm not overly concerned about the weeds, I believe it is largely the result of young, thin turf and hope it will improve each year. Also, I now realize I applied the crabgrass preventer too early so it lost it's effectiveness too early.

Obviously I was originally naive enough to think if I just followed the Scott's program I'd get the amazing results I was looking for. Less than a year into that program I'm already unhappy with it, so as you can see I switched to Milorganite. (Hey, at least I didn't drink the TruGreen Kool-Aid!) I think Scott's is good enough for the average homeowner as I believe most would be happy with the lawn I have, but I've listened to what you've said and I'm ready to focus on soil health rather than just pumping my grass full of nitrogen.

My plans for the fall:
-In the areas where trees were removed, the soil is sinking pretty badly. In addition, the grass isn't great in those areas. The worst spots are nothing but dirt, the best is thin yellow grass. Since the grass isn't great, I'm planning on digging it out in an attempt to remove any and all sawdust the stump grinder left behind and replace with store bought top soil to a level of an inch or two above the existing soil in anticipation of more sinking/compaction. I plan to tamp the soil down as I fill the holes to minimize future compaction.
-Aerate and overseed entire lawn, possibly with a slit seeder.

Questions:
-What's the best schedule to follow for Milorganite? I don't have the budget to follow Andy's schedule, but I can certainly bump up what the bag recommends. Would bag rate once a month from April 1 - Oct 1 be a good plan?
-Now that I'm making the switch to Milorganite, what else do I need to apply and when (weed control, winter prep, etc)? I'm not necessarily looking to go 100% organic, I just want to do what's best for my soil. If synthetic weed control options don't hurt the soil or grass, I'm ok with using them.
-I'd like an interpretation of my soil sample and recommendations to fix any issues. I know it's not Logan Labs, but to my amateur eye this seems pretty close. If it's really not good enough or too much time has passed, I'll get it retested at Logan.
-The grass bordering my driveway and walkway is the worst grass in the yard...brown and dead in spots. According to my research I think this is due to the heat the blacktop and brick radiates which dries out the soil. I don't want to unnecessarily run my sprinklers just to hit these small strips of grass and I can't see myself standing out there with a hose every other day of the summer. Assuming I'm correct about the cause, do I have any other options?
-The soil is all native (well, not good quality top soil anyway) and contains a lot of stones. It appears to me in a few spots there are so many stones just below the surface that the grass isn't thriving. I discovered this while trying to troubleshoot some brownish grass...I stuck my screwdriver down and it was frequently blocked by stones. When it didn't hit a stone, it went right in. Is it worth it to pull up the grass, dig out the stones, replace with top soil, and lay the grass back down?
-My neighbor has a pine tree that overhangs my side yard and the grass is thin below it. What do I need to do (aside from chopping down branches) to help it out? Extra lime?
-This probably isn't the best place for this question, but it's worth a shot - I have chipmunks/chipmunk holes all over my yard. At first I didn't mind them, but now they're really ticking me off by digging around my tomato plants every morning. I'm trying to find a humane solution - and no, relocating them isn't humane in my book (and, for the record, drowning them is just plain cruel). I just want them to dig in my neighbor's yard instead of mine ;) I'm going to try to dump some used kitty litter in their holes. Any other ideas? I actually don't even care if they continue to live in the holes, my main concern is stopping them from digging around my plants. I tried chili powder - didn't do a thing.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks in advance!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

It kind of looks like your lawn is already heading for the next level. It's really, really nice!

>>-6/14/14 - 16 lbs Jonathan Green Mag-I-Cal
-7/6/14 - 16 lbs Jonathan Green Mag-I-Cal

Is that over the whole lawn or per thousand square feet? I ask because if that's per thousand...you should expect some side effects shortly. Can you let me know?

Also, did you post your soil test? Without some other information, I can't determine what's going on--most notably the CEC (EC on some tests). Organic matter percentage would help but isn't strictly necessary. Saturation percentages really do help.

-What's the best schedule to follow for Milorganite? I don't have the budget to follow Andy's schedule, but I can certainly bump up what the bag recommends. Would bag rate once a month from April 1 - Oct 1 be a good plan?

There's no schedule for Milorganite. :-) Grasses do prefer to feed in fall more than summer, and there's no sense adding food when the lawn isn't particularly interested in eating. I tend to stress feedings from August to October, with one single feeding in May.

Not that I haven't summer fed, of course, and organically it's fine. I just don't do it any longer as the soil organic material is up to snuff.

Do you have a grain elevator, grain mill, or feed store near you? Soybean meal might be cheaper per pound for you, and at roughly 7-1-2 it's got more nitrogen per pound as well. I pay $15 for fifty pounds and use it at 15 pounds per thousand four times per year.

That alone is ample food for the lawn. Everything else that gets added is just the cherry on top of the cake.

-Now that I'm making the switch to Milorganite, what else do I need to apply and when (weed control, winter prep, etc)? I'm not necessarily looking to go 100% organic, I just want to do what's best for my soil. If synthetic weed control options don't hurt the soil or grass, I'm ok with using them.

I always recommend spot spraying weeds as necessary as that way you aren't spewing herbicides where they aren't needed. Weed B Gone (with Crabgrass Control or with Oxalis Control if you get clover) and a gallon sprayer will be your friend for years.

Until the lawn gets so thick the weeds won't live there any longer...the condition I've reached. There is a weed out there at the moment, staring at me, but I'll get to that this weekend.

-I'd like an interpretation of my soil sample and recommendations to fix any issues. I know it's not Logan Labs, but to my amateur eye this seems pretty close. If it's really not good enough or too much time has passed, I'll get it retested at Logan.

Sure, if you re-post I'll be happy to help. So will several others.

-The grass bordering my driveway and walkway is the worst grass in the yard...brown and dead in spots. According to my research I think this is due to the heat the blacktop and brick radiates which dries out the soil. I don't want to unnecessarily run my sprinklers just to hit these small strips of grass and I can't see myself standing out there with a hose every other day of the summer. Assuming I'm correct about the cause, do I have any other options?

Several. One is to install a plug-in system yourself that only hits those areas.

Two, which I did, was turn most of the driveway border to garden. Besides making a nice entry into the house, I can plant things that don't mind the radiant heat (and actually like it). So walking in, you'll see dahlia and zinnia and cleome and Melampodium...
-The soil is all native (well, not good quality top soil anyway) and contains a lot of stones. It appears to me in a few spots there are so many stones just below the surface that the grass isn't thriving. I discovered this while trying to troubleshoot some brownish grass...I stuck my screwdriver down and it was frequently blocked by stones. When it didn't hit a stone, it went right in. Is it worth it to pull up the grass, dig out the stones, replace with top soil, and lay the grass back down?

Meh. If it's just a few trouble spots, I might be inclined to remove the stones. If it's pretty common, I'd develop a blind eye to those spots. Rocks, unfortunately, happen.

-My neighbor has a pine tree that overhangs my side yard and the grass is thin below it. What do I need to do (aside from chopping down branches) to help it out? Extra lime?

Chop out branches. Part of the problem is little sunlight, as most pine trees are pretty dense.

Part is the tree sucking up water like mad, leaving the grass with very little. Extra water might be required.

Many trees--I don't know if pines do it--are allelopathic. Which means they excrete chemicals to kill any other plants that try to grow under them. If that's the case, you won't get much to grow under that pine. Mulch the area and enjoy the tree.

-This probably isn't the best place for this question, but it's worth a shot - I have chipmunks/chipmunk holes all over my yard. At first I didn't mind them, but now they're really ticking me off by digging around my tomato plants every morning. I'm trying to find a humane solution - and no, relocating them isn't humane in my book (and, for the record, drowning them is just plain cruel). I just want them to dig in my neighbor's yard instead of mine ;) I'm going to try to dump some used kitty litter in their holes. Any other ideas? I actually don't even care if they continue to live in the holes, my main concern is stopping them from digging around my plants. I tried chili powder - didn't do a thing.

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Seriously, I have chipmunks myself and put them on the "Incurable, Endurable" listing. I enjoy their antics without enjoying the dug holes.

You might try Tabasco sauce, diluted 1 tbsp to 1 gallon of water, sprayed around the plants and see if that helps. Most mammals really don't like anything that hot, and it worked beautifully to repel the rabbits from my gardens (they had destroyed my zinnia and were starting to eye the marigolds).


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

Even if you don't plant anything in it, you could mulch along side the borders of the hot concrete. Just to be sure, put a can or two in those brown spots. It could be you're just not quite getting enough water there.

Yellow grass over a ground out tree is pretty common. If you want the best (and most perfect) lawn, you'll have to do something. Your idea is a good one.

Since you have fescue, the only way to improve grass density is to add more plants in the fall. Eventually it will fill in. If you use a slit seeder, run it criss cross so you don't end up with rows of grass plants.

Thanks for doing your homework before doing anything radical.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

Morpheus - thanks for taking the time to give me a detailed response. I appreciate the kind comments about my lawn. Like I said, I'm happy with the results thus far, but the pictures were, or course, taken at the best possible angles. They really hide all the blemishes, even the big obvious ones where the trees were removed.

-The 32 lbs of Mag-I-Cal is the total amount I put over the whole lawn. I know it's much stronger than standard calcitic lime. I think (hope) I did my calculations correctly.

-I typed out the results of my soil test in the original post. I should've just posted it, sorry. It is attached to this post. I don't see any CE or CEC info on it.

-I'll revise my Milorganite schedule to cut out the June and July feedings. I'm not sure about feed stores nearby, I'll have to look into that. If I'm doing my math correctly, the price difference vs Milorganite is negligible...a few bucks per application. So basically for the same price I'd get more bang for my buck out of the soybean meal? I know dchall uses Alfalfa pellets, is there a reason you prefer soybean meal over alfalfa? Is Alfalfa more expensive in our region?

-I definitely understand what you're saying about just spot spraying weeds. Seeing the amount of crabgrass that is popping up this year, though, I think I still want to use a preemergent in the spring. I've spent several hours the past couple weeks pulling crabgrass and it's continuing to pop up faster than I can pull it. I expect improvement as my yard thickens, but one of my neighbors yard is 100% weeds, so I may always have a bit of a battle on my hands.

-I've considered edging my driveway with some landscaping, but like the idea of the grass going right up to the edge of it, mainly to keep the mowing as simple as possible as ridiculous as that is. Like dchall said I'll stick some tuna cans there the next time I water and see what's happening. I'll give it one more season and if I can't keep control of it maybe I'll throw in some landscaping. At the very least maybe an 8" border of light colored pavers will be enough of a buffer.

-I'll have to sneak out and chop off some of that pine tree. The grass isn't totally barren, it looks fine from a distance, so I'm not at the point of giving up and mulching it yet.

-I was afraid of that answer about the chipmunks. I do enjoy seeing them out there but they need to leave my plants alone! I'll try the Tabasco sauce, maybe line the base of the plants with chicken wire, stick a hose down their holes and the spread the cat litter. If they still persist, I think I may resort to the rat zapper.

Dchall - thanks also for you response. I will put the tuna cans out there next to the driveway and see what's happening.

-I'm tempted to just throw top soil straight on top of the removed trees as it will take at least 3-4" of soil, but I want to do it right the first time rather than battle it for several years, so I'll make myself dig some of the affected soil out.

-When I said "possibly with a slit seeder" that was my weak way of asking if that's a recommended method. I've never used one and I'm a little worried it's going to do some damage. Will I see much better results with that vs just using a broadcast spreader after aerating?


One question I forgot to ask in the original post: I'm not sure what the exact makeup of the grass is. The landscaper told me "tall fescue" but I know it could still be a mix. Would the existing makeup of the lawn affect what I should overseed with? In other words, if it's a mix should I put a mix down and if it's straight tall fescue should I put straight tall fescue down? Is it always recommended to do a mix, or is it personal preference? I don't really like how easily KBG goes dormant in the summer.

Followup question: what seed is recommended? I have a bag of Scott's Classic Grass Seed Tall Fescue Mix but I'm thinking about giving that away with the leftover Scott's fertilizers and using Pennington Smart Seed Tall Fescue instead - much better reviews. Or should I use something completely different? I don't mind paying a little bit of a premium for premium seed if it really looks/feels/performs better. Note: the Jonathan Green HQ is only 15 minutes from me, so I can easily grab any of their products from their store.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

While I got into a flame war elsewhere about the quality of tests, this was precisely what I meant. On the up side, I won't be returning there, so that's good for them. :-)

Let me think about this because, frankly, that test makes little sense. Either I'm reading this wrong or it directly contradicts itself.

I'll answer the other stuff at the same time...I actually do need to possibly get something done today. Maybe. if I get around to it. :-)

Most of my answers regarding differences between organic methods of two people is, "It depends, and a lot depends on what your goals and grass are."


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

OK, that's better.

Yep, this makes no sense. I just needed to make sure I wasn't missing something but there's no information contained on this sheet that contradicts this conclusion.

With above optimum Ca and Mg, plus optimum K, there's no way to generate a pH of 5.77 under any reasonable circumstance (there are tons of exceptions, including overloaded aluminum, but these are exceedingly unlikely. Some, like sulfur overload, are not only unlikely they'd be fatal).

Therefore, either the overall pH test is wrong, or the Ca, Mg, and K tests are wrong. Or your CEC is so fantastically high that even sub-par results are considered "above optimum."

But that last one should be taken into account by the lab computers when they calculate your score...unless they're not basing this off CEC. Which would be another problem.

Consequently, I'm going to discard the entire test as not trustworthy enough without due confirmation by another lab. There's too little information contained here to let me know why the discrepancy is happening--if it is happening.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

OK, now the rest of it.

>>They really hide all the blemishes, even the big obvious ones where the trees were removed.

Shh. That happens in every lawn photo. :-)

>>-The 32 lbs of Mag-I-Cal is the total amount I put over the whole lawn. I know it's much stronger than standard calcitic lime. I think (hope) I did my calculations correctly.

Good. I once accidentally overapplied 12 pounds per thousand to the gardens and watched the plants turn yellow.

Calcitic shouldn't be applied at more than 9 pounds per thousand square feet at a time, with a minimum of 3 months between applications--and repeat only if pH is extraordinarily low.

-I'll revise my Milorganite schedule to cut out the June and July feedings. I'm not sure about feed stores nearby, I'll have

You certainly can if you wish, or not if you wish. While I tend to recommend against summer applications on healthy lawns, it's not exactly going to be a problem. Quite the opposite, and if you notice color fading badly in the summer sun, feed it. It might need the free iron.

>>application. So basically for the same price I'd get more bang for my buck out of the soybean meal? I know dchall

That does depend. The bag rate for Milorganite is 14.4 pounds per thousand. I generally recommend 20 to target 1 pound of available nitrogen per application (organic N does take a while to work in, so far less than that is initially available).

For soybean meal, 1 pound of N per K is 15 pounds of soybean per thousand. So you're using three quarters the amount to do the same feeding job.

If raising OM is your goal, neither soy nor Milorganite is technically your best choice. Cracked corn requires 60 pounds per thousand to supply the same 1 pound of N per K. Which means it's less likely to smell terrible at very high levels of application (decay scent is nitrogen compounds--less nitrogen, less smell, as a general rule and all else being equal).

>>uses Alfalfa pellets, is there a reason you prefer soybean meal over alfalfa? Is Alfalfa more expensive in our region?

For me, it's pricey. To get that 1 pound of N equivalent, alfalfa needs to go down at 50 pounds per thousand, more than three times the rate of soybean meal. Since it's about the same price, the nitrogen is three times as expensive.

Northern lawns don't benefit--and actually can suffer delays--from too much alfalfa put down at once. 20 pounds per thousand per month is the maximum rate the guru I learned from recommended.

>>-I definitely understand what you're saying about just spot spraying weeds. Seeing the amount of crabgrass that is popping up this year, though,

By all means area spray if the problem is widespread in the area. Spot spraying is great, but sometimes clearing the deck initially is required.

>>I think I still want to use a preemergent in the spring. I've spent several hours the past couple weeks pulling crabgrass and it's continuing to pop up faster than I can pull it.

Pre-emergents are wonderful. I spray Prodiamine once a year for a 9 month shield. It's not perfect, but I'm also not complaining about 90% effective. I haven't pulled a weed from the stone patio in years. I don't have to.

>>I expect improvement as my yard thickens, but one of my neighbors yard is 100% weeds, so I may always have a bit of a battle on my hands.

You've seen my lawn? The lawns to the southwest, south, east, northeast, and north are weed pits. No worries, your lawn can outcompete any weed. With the possible exception of some of the Poa genus.

>>-I've considered edging my driveway with some landscaping, but like the idea of the grass going right up to the edge of it, mainly to keep the mowing as simple as possible as ridiculous as that is.

No problem! We all have our aesthetic preferences.

>>Like dchall said I'll stick some tuna cans there the next time I water and see what's happening. I'll give it one more season and if I can't keep control of it maybe I'll throw in some landscaping. At the very least maybe an 8" border of light colored pavers will be enough of a buffer.

Good plan. Keep in mind that areas bordering pavement may require watering more often. When I designed my irrigation system, I did it so that the south face of the driveway was zoned with other things that need more.

Now if I'd remembered to do that on the north side...but no matter. I'll eventually turn that into another 20 square feet of garden attached to the gardens on either side of it.

>>-I'll have to sneak out and chop off some of that pine tree.

If the branches are over onto your property you have every legal right to cut them off at the property line.

It might be impolitic to do so, however, so I fully support your decision to wear black and do this at 2 AM. Storm damage sometimes comes up so suddenly and takes off just a few branches, huh.

>>The grass isn't totally barren, it looks fine from a distance, so I'm not at the point of giving up and mulching it yet.

Also try feeding and watering it a bit more than the other areas of the lawn. Sometimes hard-pressed grass just needs a hand up.

-I was afraid of that answer about the chipmunks. I do enjoy seeing them out there but they need to leave my plants alone! I'll try the Tabasco sauce, maybe line the base of the plants with chicken wire, stick a hose down their holes and the spread the cat litter. If they still persist, I think I may resort to the rat zapper.

Looking it up, at least one site states that there are no repellents registered for chipmunks. However, it also says that any squirrel repellent will work on them.

Sonic repellent device(s) might be another idea.

-When I said "possibly with a slit seeder" that was my weak way of asking if that's a recommended method. I've never used one and I'm a little worried it's going to do some damage. Will I see much better results with that vs just using a broadcast spreader after aerating?

You'll get great results with a slit seeder. I got great results broadcast spreading seed on the soil (no aeration, no raking, no preparation at all).

Assuming this is in blank areas, topdressing with 1/8" of peat moss to hold some moisture might be a good idea. For general lawn transmission, that's unnecessary, expensive, and time consuming.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

-I'm kind of glad to hear that the soil test seems a little off. I really have no idea how it all interacts together, but I had a gut feeling something wasn't right. I'll have it retested at Logan Labs and see what their report says.

-I'll keep the Milorganite vs soybean meal in the back of my head for now. Hopefully it can be revisted after my retest when I find out how much organic matter I have in my soil.

-Thanks for the Prodiamine recommendation - that's exactly the information I was looking for. I'll pick some up next spring.

-I had not seen your lawn but found some pics via Google. It's awesome! What type of lawn do you have? Fescue? KBG? What brand seed did you use when you reseeded?

-I'm a little wary of the electronic pest repellers since reviews are always so mixed, but I suppose it couldn't hurt to try...especially since Home Depot has a 90 day return policy!

-For the seeding options, I guess you're saying either method is fine? Perhaps I should ask the question in it's own thread since I think you're the only one that read the essay I posted in this one.

Any experience with Strawnet? I know most say straw isn't necessary when seeding, but I like that this product seems it'll help with moisture control should I miss a watering. The company that originally seeded my yard used it, or something similar.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

-I'm kind of glad to hear that the soil test seems a little off. I really have no idea how it all interacts together, but I had a gut feeling something wasn't right. I'll have it retested at Logan Labs and see what their report says.

Cool. Repost and I'll be happy to take a look at it.

-I'll keep the Milorganite vs soybean meal in the back of my head for now. Hopefully it can be revisted after my retest when I find out how much organic matter I have in my soil.

Sure thing. This is a slow enough process that a couple weeks' delay doesn't make a jot of difference in the end.

-Thanks for the Prodiamine recommendation - that's exactly the information I was looking for. I'll pick some up next spring.

Prodiamine (Barricade) is great, but so are many others. Whatever you choose will probably work fine--but check the reapplication recommendations. Barricade is very long-lasting, others may range from 1 to 3 months.

-I had not seen your lawn but found some pics via Google. It's awesome! What type of lawn do you have? Fescue? KBG? What brand seed did you use when you reseeded?

Thanks! Pure KBG, Midnight, Moonlight, and Bedazzled with a little Blueberry and Prosperity thrown in for good measure at a later date.

So it's not a brand, I chose the cultivars specifically for my area, microclime, and method of care.

-I'm a little wary of the electronic pest repellers since reviews are always so mixed, but I suppose it couldn't hurt to try...especially since Home Depot has a 90 day return policy!

That too! I've never tried one as I tend to tolerate small critters and spot-repel as necessary. So I have no opinion on how they work.

-For the seeding options, I guess you're saying either method is fine? Perhaps I should ask the question in it's own thread since I think you're the only one that read the essay I posted in this one.

Maybe. It seems quiet in here this week.

Yep, either option is just fine. People get great results from slit seeding. People get great results from throwing the stuff down and watering.

>>Any experience with Strawnet? I know most say straw isn't necessary when seeding, but I like that this product seems it'll help with moisture control should I miss a watering. The company that originally seeded my yard used it, or something similar.

No experience at all. I used 1/8" of peat moss when I seeded, which was ample to cover the seed, hold some moisture, plus contains no weed seeds and is actually pretty sterile.

Plus it's great late stage OM as it works in to the soil.


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RE: Want to take my lawn to the next level

Wow I guess I should start researching tall fescue cultivars if I want to be taken seriously...


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