Monkey grass is not necessarily the same as Mondo grass. Different genus, different growth habit, different sunlight requirements.
But nevermind that for a moment as most turfgasses are invasive weeds so lets just set that aside...
Hardiness zone of OP is 6 is what I'd like to bring attention to.

Yeah, I made a bit of a mistake I put zone 7-9. Bad source I see it's 6-10. Word of caution I planted this before and rabbits had a field day with them.

No stephen, I think you are/were correct. Zones 7-10+ for those grasses is what is advertised where I look. They are known as southern plants and popular even down in miami.

I don't say that because I don't really think they run a serious risk of dying in cold weather one zone down. I say that because in zone 6 you have so many better options than you would in zone 9 or 10 or 8.

There's a million ornamental grasses that look nicer than monkey or mondo grasses. That stuff is to put in the islands in the parking lot at the mall where they tolerate being trampled on.

Just a suggestion to try 'Legacy' Buffalograss. It is said to grow no more than 3"-6" depending on rainfall. It is extremely drought tolerant and apparently makes a quite attractive lawn. Like Zoysia it will brown during the winter, but I believe it is much less aggressive than Zoysia.

I've just planted a small area from plugs (acquired from Todd Valley Farms) and will be interested to see how it compares to my Zoysia grass lawn.

I don't think buffalo grass is a good choice for an area that has only partial sun. I also think that WV likely gets too much rain for buffalo grass to thrive.

I'm not sure how it would do in the SF Bay area, either. It might do well in the dry parts of the year, but some parts of the Bay area stay pretty cool pretty late, so it may not have a very long green season. Please let us know how it does.

Is there another natice grass, besides buffalo, that would work there?

I'm really only familiar with the grasses that are natives in the western US. Sheep fescue was mentioned before and is a native that might work. It's a bunch dwarf type grass. The bunch part means that it may need to be overseeded periodically, although if there's not much traffic, that may not be as necessary.

On a less exotic note, you could plant something like creeping red fescue. It spreads naturally and is quick to establish - which is going to be key on a hill. You could slow the growth down by fertilizing only once a year. It wouldn't be "no mow" lawn, but it would be a lot let mowing than most grasses.

I just happened upon this website today, after reading a newspaper insert about "living green."

www.NoMowGrass.com

They describe their product like this:

"It's all natural, organic Supine bent, (not gentically modified). Southern Mix includes a 50/50 native
alpine fescue for hot dry areas."

I actually logged on today to see if anyone has tried this in the Phoenix area???

If you just want to prevent erosion there but never mow it, and if I didn't care if it was brown most of the year, I'd plant bermudagrass there.

just a word of warning, bermuda is NOT a low growing grass in all cases. many people manicure their lawns and make it grow low, but left alone it will grow high. the MAIN type of hay grown around here is bermuda. it can and does grow to 36" or more if left alone. certain types of bermuda will stay well shorter than this, but not all strains. heck the bermuda i have at my house is a foot tall by the horse pasture right now, gonna be a long weekend cutting that area back down to height.

also, my bermuda goes brown over the winter, but for 10 months out of the year it is green. it gets watered when God decides it needs it, and only then. even the part close to the garden that sees more water is no different than the parts i have never even drug a hose near.

Bill have you found creeping red fescue "quick to establish"?
Please let me know what variety that was. If found it to take perhaps the longest of any common type of grass.

dritterw--I wouldn't think that would be a good choice for you. According to this guide I found, alpine fescue grows in cooler and higher regions of the US. There is a fescue that is native to Arizona (Arizona fescue), but I think it's best adapted to higher elevations.

Fescues are cool season grasses, and you'd want a warm season grass in Phoenix. A couple of warm season grasses are bermuda, zoysia and St Augustine. I don't know much about them in terms of water needs etc.

If you want a native grass lawn that won't require a lot of water, you might want to consider buffalo grass or blue grama (or a mixture of the two. Blue grama is more of a bunch grass, but buffalo grass spreads through stolons (above ground runners).

I've never seen grama sold as anything but seed, but I've seen buffalo grass sold as plugs and sod. It's pretty expensive that way, but the sod/plug varieties often don't have seeds (the seeds can be rough to walk on) or pollen.

"the MAIN type of hay grown around here is bermuda. it can and does grow to 36" or more if left alone."

I'm going to have to see photos of this to believe it. Please post photos or else i will continue to not believe it.

I admit I've never been to mississippi but if your soil temps stay pretty warm then your bermudagrass will stay green.

Still waiting to see pics of the 3-foot-high bermuda.

Quirky - I've seen bermuda growing several feet in the air. Granted, it had climbed a bush to get there, but it was still pretty funny.

For the creeping red - I should have said "germinate" not "establish." It's quick out of the ground, but you are right, it takes a while to mature. I've heard it establishes much faster in sunny areas, but I've only grown it in shade.

I'm doing my whole back yard with creeping red and hard fescue. I was debating if I should put in a little P. rye to keep it a little sturdier until spring. My seeding has been delayed due to extreme florida-like humidity and heat and the need for a 21st application of grass killer for the bermuda.

sorry for the late reply, i was out of town.

next time i go cut our tower site in the hills i will try to take my camera. right now there are 12 round bales sitting there that are 75% bermuda. bermuda is trained to run horizontally by people who cut it short. if left to it's own, it will grow high. now, it will not grow as thick when allowed to grow vertically, but it certainly will do it. same thign with clover, people say it won't get very tall, yet i constantly fight 18"-24" DWC every spring. by late June it is all gone due to the high temps, but during the early spring it grows like crazy, 2"+ a day at times.

BTW, our frost line is something like 1/4", never seen it frozen much more than that. heck, snow usually won't stick to the ground until late January, then by the next day it is either gone completely or a solid sheet of ice.

also, many of the links that come up when you google bermuda hay state that it grows from 16-30" or more. like i said, it all depends on WHERE you grow it. many of the hay studies i just read over say you have to fertilize it and irrigate it regularly, but most folks here just cut it once every 6-8 weeks and it still grows like crazy.

Like I said I have to see it to believe it because I haven't encountered any that long and also because I keep suggesting it to people (or used to) to use on unmowable areas simply because of the unmaintained acreage of bermuda sod in my subdivision that is never fed or watered and very seldom mowed. It is only mowed to keep the weeds down and only when the management company is feeling generous. It barely grows in conditions like this. I envision MS to be somewhat more conducive to tropical swampgrasses getting out of control though.

well, we are in the fertile delta of the river, and with the high humidity and heat we have it is conducive to growth. during late August nothing grows much, but the for 9.5-11 months out of the year i have to cut grass!

in cooler climates with less fertile ground it should stay shorter than it does here.

Not to be a nudge but I'm still very excited at the opportunity to view photographs of 3 foot tall bermuda. Especially with the onset of cooler weather and dormancy fast approaching. It's been nearly a week since your last reply so as you can see I'm getting a little antsy. Sort of like passengers stuck waiting on the tarmac in plane for hours.

i only go to the hills once a month. i told you next time i go i will get a pic.

as i said before, google bermuda hay and read. many varieties are available. some are sold for use as lawns and/or for hay. if you re-read my original post i stated that certain types grow this tall, i never said all bermuda would.

btw, bermuda won't go dormant here until around Thanksgiving, and sometimes closer to Christmas. i usually have to cut grass 9-10 months out of the year.

Maybe some low growing wild flowers,small shrubs or blue fescue.

Quirky,here is a pic of probably close to 3' tall Bermuda being trampled and munched on,in Oklahoma.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:103677}}

Firstandgoal, what led you to the conclusion that is bermuda? I managed to find my way back to the source of that photo and it does not say what type of grass that is. Fortunately it does show some closeups of forage bermuda and as you can see, it looks nothing like that photo It looks quite similar to the turf type.

davidandkasie wrote:"heck the bermuda i have at my house is a foot tall by the horse pasture right now, gonna be a long weekend cutting that area back down to height."

A photo of that would be great to tide me over until you go out to the hills with the 3' bermuda.

Tdub???

/bermfor.jpg Short for "bermudagrass forage" Believe me, that is Bermudagrass gone wild. I have seen it with my own eyes,I live in Oklahoma.

Quirky--I'm not sure how you traced that photo to the link you provided.

I traced it back to this page: BERMUDAGRASS VARIETIES FOR PASTURE AND HAY. If you right click on the picture on that page and choose view image in Firefox you'll get the picture firstandgoal posted. Usually, IE would do that with show picture, but for some reason, that menu item is grayed out for me. If I choose properties, I see the link firstandgoal posted.

Considering the caption on the page where that picture appears, I think it's pretty clear that it's bermuda.

"/bermfor.jpg Short for "bermudagrass forage" Believe me, that is Bermudagrass gone wild. I have seen it with my own eyes,I live in Oklahoma."

So they named the photo that. It doesn't mean that's what it is. To tell you the truth it looks like Bahia and I think that is probably what you're seeing as it is commonly used as turf in the gulf coast and florida especially. Are you in OK or MS?

BP GREEN.... That is a STOCK PHOTO of cows in a pasture of bahiagrass or one of the other forage grasses.

A closeup photo of 3' could bermuda could change my mind but that is something else my dears.

I live in central Oklahoma. I can assure you that is not bahiagrass or one of the other forage grasses. How tall do you think Bermuda can get with plenty of water,fertilizer,and no mowing in 7 months? Maybe its the climate,soil etc...but I have seen it get pretty tall here.

A picture's worth a thousand words.

And bu picture I mean one that you take, not some stock photo of some unknown grass but instead something that shows the leaves or other identifying features. If it was such a common occurance for it to get that tall then you'd think there would be a photo of it posted by now.

And I confused you firstandgoal for davidandkasie which is why I asked about the location.

"BP GREEN.... That is a STOCK PHOTO of cows in a pasture of bahiagrass or one of the other forage grasses."

Quirky--I'm not sure what your source is, but I asked the professor whose contact info was listed for the haskell tour (where the picture appears) and he had this to say:

"Yes, the picture is really bermudagrass. Well-managed bermudagrass growing in areas where it is adapted can become this tall. It would get taller but the stems tend to grow horizontal rather than upright. If bermudagrass is not fertilized or grown on shallow soil it would not become this tall."

Thanks for doing that but I am not convinced without seeing a closeup of that grass or of common bermuda growing that tall period.

QQ - The pasture varieties of bermuda will grow that tall. The "giant" variety is described as 30" in height at their trials. I dont see pictures of that variety, but if you click on Cheyenne:http://www.bermudagrass.com/info/cheyenne.html
or RancheroFrio:http://www.bermudagrass.com/info/rancherofrio.html

there are pictures of these varieties in a pasture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Giant Bermuda

Like I said... Seein's Believin'

Even when you saw it and the OK State professor who took the picture said it was Bermuda, you didn't believe it. You said you wouldn't believe it without a picture, so somebody linked a picture. You then claimed that wasn't Bermuda grass and was a stock photo. When I sent a quote from the professor, you said you still didn't believe it.

You've been given plenty of proof but you continue to call anybody and everybody liars if they say bermuda can grow that high (or if they post pictures of it growing that high). There's not much point in continuing this since your definition of liar seems to be anybody who has seen or taken a picture of bermuda grass that grows that tall.

The giant(NK37) bermuda can grow at least 40" tall, and is more of an upright grower, without gravity affecting it. The bermuda in the pic is common bermuda, which can grow 2 or 3 feet before gravity starts to pull the upright growth down.

QQ, that pic is a closeup......Believe.

Seriously, What the heck is wrong with you people.
If you rewind to Sept 20, you'll see that the poster Davidandkasey had a stern warning after quoting my suggestion to use bermuda, that left alone to fend for itself the grass could grow longer than 36". In reality, Not only does it have to be a special forage type variety, according to BPgreen the professor said "Well-managed bermudagrass growing in areas where it is adapted can become this tall. It would get taller but the stems tend to grow horizontal rather than upright. If bermudagrass is not fertilized or grown on shallow soil it would not become this tall.""

WONDERFUL! What the #$(% relavance does that have to my initial comment about using some walmart pennington turf sahara horsemanure variety on a hillside in where????? WEST VIRGINIA.........
3 foot bermuda in West Virginia?!?! come on.
Give
me
a break.

Show me an actual closeup photo... here is an example of a closeup photo...
{{gwi:103678}}
of this 3 foot or even the 1 foot bermuda in Mississipi, not someone else's photo from some forage research center or I will continue to think that you are full of undigested bermudagrass.

QQ-Yes, you may be right about the bermuda not getting that tall in WV, I dont know. But, it does not necessarily have to be a special forage type for it to get 2' or more. I have seen just plain old deep rooted common bermuda,left alone, get at least 2' with just rainwater and no fertilizer in fertile soil.

But, as I see it, the thread turned with your disbelief that bermuda could not grow 1', 2 or even 3' in height.

Now, if you will excuse me, I think my bermuda grass has digested and I have to go check out the plumbing. lol

QQ--Using larger bold blinking fonts doesn't impress me, it just annoys me, but I suspect that was your intention, anyway. Constantly changing the parameters of what constitutes proof also doesn't impress me (and also annoys me).

The person who said they had seen 3 ft tall Bermuda never said they saw it in West Virginia. They said it was in Mississippi. I know the OP was looking for a no mow grass for WV, but the person cautioning about 3 ft Bermuda was from MS.

When you expressed disbelief that Bermuda could get to that height, you didn't say it couldn't get to that height in WV, but that it couldn't get to that height. Since the OK State professor said that well managed Bermuda can get to that height, my guess is that you have to have the right conditions and you have to try fairly hard. A no-mow hillside sounds like an area that would be neglected, so would not be likely to get to the 3 ft height.

We all know what a closeup photo is. I can't take a closeup of Bermuda because it doesn't grow around here (at least not that I know of). When you first asked for a photo, you didn't ask for a closeup, just a photo.

When somebody posted a link to one and I traced it to its source (not a stock photo site, but a forage study), you yelled at me and dismissed it as a stock photo of a different type of grass, but never said why you considered it a stock photo or a different type of grass. In support of you contention that it was a stock photo, you posted a link to a different OK State site (not a stock photo site) that didn't include that photo.

So I contacted the author of the study to ask him about the photo and he told me that it is Bermuda and that well managed Bermuda grass can become that tall. He didn't say that it has to be a special forage type.

What started the whole picture posting thing was when you said that you would only believe that Bermuda can grow that tall if you saw a picture.

I don't grow Bermuda grass, but I traced back from the photo to the studies from OK State where the picture came from and read the studies. Based on what I read in those studies, I'm pretty certain that Bermuda grass can grow to the height depicted in the picture.

You know a lot more about warm season grasses than I do, since I only know what I've read and you know what you've read and also can speak from personal experience. I probably wouldn't have read nearly as much about Bermuda grass if you hadn't yelled at me, but everything I've read supports the contention that Bermuda grass can grow to heights of at least 3 feet.

It's often said that it's difficult to prove a negative. It's easy to prove that something _can_ happen, because all you need to do is provide one example of it happening. But it's very difficult to prove that something _can't_ happen.

I could provide 1000 pictures of short Bermuda and that would not prove that Bermuda can't grow tall. All I need to do to prove that it can grow tall is provide one picture of it growing tall. Except that isn't enough for you.

You've been provided with links to pictures of tall Bermuda grass, studies of tall Bermuda grass, seed stores with descriptions of tall Bermuda grass, personal testimony, but you still deny its existence.

Prove to me that it can't reach that height.

Firstandgoal wrote: "I have seen just plain old deep rooted common bermuda,left alone, get at least 2' with just rainwater and no fertilizer in fertile soil."

Fine, like I've been asking all along, I won't believe this until I see a photo with my own two eyes. Then I will believe it.

BPGREEN wrote: "QQ--Using larger bold blinking fonts doesn't impress me, it just annoys me, but I suspect that was your intention, anyway. Constantly changing the parameters of what constitutes proof also doesn't impress me (and also annoys me)."

You know one of my pet peeves is when people take offense to large font size. Don't let it get you down. It's just to emphasize certain key words and phrases, something that was definitely needed in this case. Oh, and in consideration of what annoys you, I will try to make accommodations and underline text instead.

"The person who said they had seen 3 ft tall Bermuda never said they saw it in West Virginia. They said it was in Mississippi. I know the OP was looking for a no mow grass for WV, but the person cautioning about 3 ft Bermuda was from MS."

No duh. That was my whole point. Well almost the whole point.

"When you expressed disbelief that Bermuda could get to that height, you didn't say it couldn't get to that height in WV, but that it couldn't get to that height."

Yes this is true and I'm still waiting for those pictures.

"We all know what a closeup photo is. I can't take a closeup of Bermuda because it doesn't grow around here (at least not that I know of). When you first asked for a photo, you didn't ask for a closeup, just a photo."

I don't know why we're having this conversation as I asked only one person for the photo and it was the person who claimed they had 1 foot bermuda growing right near their yard. Is it reasonable to expect that one can positively see distinguishing features in the photo? For 30 years I've been swallowed up by bahia so I can recognize that and that's what that picture looked like to me.

And by the way...
{{gwi:103679}}
Sorry to break the bad news to you.

"When somebody posted a link to one and I traced it to its source (not a stock photo site, but a forage study), you yelled at me and dismissed it as a stock photo of a different type of grass, but never said why you considered it a stock photo or a different type of grass. In support of you contention that it was a stock photo, you posted a link to a different OK State site (not a stock photo site) that didn't include that photo."

I never said it was a stock photo SITE. I said it was a stock photo meaning it looks like it just came from a collection of photos as a general header image for that section of their online publications on forage grass. There was no photo under the picture that gave credits to the photographer or indicated what the grass was. Only you geniuses looked at the file name and came to the conclusion it must be what the file name calls it.

"He didn't say that it has to be a special forage type." * Posted by jjfrisco 8a TX (My Page) on
Mon, Oct 15, 07 at 17:59

QQ - The pasture varieties of bermuda will grow that tall. The "giant" variety is described as 30" in height at their trials. I dont see pictures of that variety, but if you click on Cheyenne:http://www.bermudagrass.com/info/cheyenne.html
or RancheroFrio:http://www.bermudagrass.com/info/rancherofrio.html

there are pictures of these varieties in a pasture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Giant Bermuda

Oh and...........
* Posted by davidandkasie Z8 MS (My Page) on
Mon, Oct 1, 07 at 16:28

i only go to the hills once a month. i told you next time i go i will get a pic.

as i said before, google bermuda hay and read. many varieties are available. some are sold for use as lawns and/or for hay. if you re-read my original post i stated that certain types grow this tall, i never said all bermuda would.

"I don't grow Bermuda grass, but I traced back from the photo to the studies from OK State where the picture came from and read the studies. Based on what I read in those studies, I'm pretty certain that Bermuda grass can grow to the height depicted in the picture."

You weren't by any chance the one who determined Iraq had WMD's, were you? There were other photos at that site that definitely loked like bermuda but they were not that tall. Those would be the photos that actually had captions.

"What started the whole picture posting thing was when you said that you would only believe that Bermuda can grow that tall if you saw a picture."

Yes and I said this only to the person that originally claimed to have 1 foot bermuda growing near their yard thinking they would go take a picture, post it here and it would turn out to be a different type of grass because bermuda doesn't grow that tall except special forage types that are "well managed".

"if you hadn't yelled at me"

I didn't yell at you (I was just emphasizing text that was overlooked multiple times) but lets make up and be friends, ok?
(((((((big hug)))))))

"I could provide 1000 pictures of short Bermuda and that would not prove that Bermuda can't grow tall. All I need to do to prove that it can grow tall is provide one picture of it growing tall. Except that isn't enough for you.

You've been provided with links to pictures of tall Bermuda grass, studies of tall Bermuda grass, seed stores with descriptions of tall Bermuda grass, personal testimony, but you still deny its existence.

Prove to me that it can't reach that height."

While you're at it, I'd like to see a photo of the lock ness monster. The person I originally requested the photo from said they would be able to take a picture within a month. So I'll be patient and wait a little while longer. Nobody else need participate as this was not intended to be a group effort.

"There was no photo under the picture that gave credits to the photographer or indicated what the grass was."

Should read
There was no caption under the picture

Holy crap this post is out of control. I guess bermuda grass in unwanted places + 21 applications of roundup will make normally sane people go a bit nuts.

QQ - I now know what I am going to be for halloween, a 6'2" piece of bermuda grass. I'm going to dance around on your yard until you run out of candy or spray me with roundup. If its roundup, you know I'll just come back 5 mins later... WoooHaHaHaHa

Trust me, if you get or have common bermuda in your TTTF/KBG or any other type and it's not wanted, you will drive yourself nuts trying to eradicate it...if it's even possible to do so. I've been trying for 4 years and haven't gotten close yet.

That would actually make a really rad costume.

This year I'm growing glyphosate tolerant varieties so I can't wait to see what happens if I spray it to keep down the bermuda. If it doesn't work I'll they the over the counter bayer bermuda supressant from lowes and see what that does.

"Sorry to break the bad news to you."

Assuming the shaded counties are the ones with Bermuda, I'm in a Bermuda free zone.

"You know one of my pet peeves is when people take offense to large font size."

I don't object to the large fonts so much as the blinking. Blinking fonts give me headaches in a matter of seconds (maybe I have some mild form of epilepsy or something, but I won't shop at a site with blinking text). I know you like to use blinking fonts, but I find them really annoying because of the headache inducing factor. I shouldn't have objected to the size and bold text.

"Yes and I said this only to the person that originally claimed to have 1 foot bermuda growing near their yard thinking they would go take a picture, post it here and it would turn out to be a different type of grass because bermuda doesn't grow that tall except special forage types that are "well managed"."

Maybe I misunderstood you from the start. I thought you were saying that Bermuda could never reach that height.

"I didn't yell at you (I was just emphasizing text that was overlooked multiple times) but lets make up and be friends, ok? "

You did yell at me (typing in all caps is considered yelling), but if you stop with the blinking, I'll let it pass. I didn't overlook the stock photo comments, I just never saw anything that supported them.

We've disagreed on this thread, but I think we've agreed more often than not and even if we never agreed, that's no reason we can't be friends.

Finally....PEACE!! Now, can we move on and put this thread in file 13?!? Just a thought.

"Assuming the shaded counties are the ones with Bermuda, I'm in a Bermuda free zone."

Those are where there are vouchered specimens. It doesn't mean that because your county isn't shaded that there isn't any bermuda there. I had a feeling you were going to reply and say that.

And I got your email, the thing about WMD's was a joke. I was comparing how you made a conclusion based on insufficient evidence. That unclear photo without a caption and without clearly illustrating the grass that was merely named "berfor" was an example of insufficient evidence. Sort of like looking at a tanker truck from a satellite photo and saying that must be a mobile uranium enrichment facility.

If blinking pixels on a computer screen gives you a headache it might be time to schedule an appointment for an eye doctor or a regular doctor even. That is not normal to have happen.

And I don't know who it was that decided typing in capitals is yelling but I don't subscribe to that theory. Typing in capitals and using other text decoration is a way to make certain points stand out from the rest of the text. You know you're spending too much time online when you get po'd when someone types in capital letters at you. That is just silly. And by "silly", what I really mean is that it's a stinking bag of milorganite.

Not to reignite this, but typing in all caps is considered "yelling." It is about as widely accepted as :) being a smiley. It really doesn't matter if you "subscribe to the theory" or not. To use your example, it would be like GB declaring that his nickname for tanker trucks is in fact "a mobile enrichment uranium facility" - and he doesn't subscribe to the fact the rest of the world might attach a different meaning to his nickname.

Anyway, I'm glad everyone is friends again. :)

They're just pixels, don't let them ruin your day.

We put NoMowGrass (from NoMowGrass.com) on a part of a hillside and it takes extra seed as well as something to hold the seed down while it is establishing roots.
The options are to plant annual rye if the planting is going on after September / October, or use a mat like burlap or straw woven mat to hold it down of planted any other time.

Note that you need 50% more seed on a slope to reduce chances of erosion.

Here is a link that might be useful: No mow grass on hillside