Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
slingblade1177

Starting over

slingblade1177
11 years ago

I posted here about 6-8 months ago looking for advice on starting over with my lawn. The previous owner of my house really let the lawn go and ended up laying St. Augustine on half the lawn. It is not surviving under the massive tree. I am going to take the tree out as the large roots are growing into the foundation of the house. Most other areas of my lawn wont have shade issues. I will eventually plant another tree close to the location of the current one.

Anyway, I want to start over. I live in Dallas. You guys told me that September is the best time to reseed and start over. I am not going to be laying St. Augustine, but thinking of going with a drought tolerant Fescue. Any other suggestions are much appreciated. I mentioned awhile back that my neighbors had this really lush green grass that stayed mostly green in the winters here. I wanted that type, but never got a firm answer on what type of grass it is.

After I kill my current grass, I want to spread a thin layer of topsoil before I reseed. Is this recommended? Also, do I need to aerate the lawn before seeding?

Thanks for any suggestions or help.

Comments (25)

  • grass1950
    11 years ago

    Aeration is not necessary for seeding.

    Why do you want to spread a thin layer of topsoil? Although a loose bed of soil can improve seed to soil contact there are easier ways of accomplishing it than spreading topsil. Your money and efforts would be better utilized by topdressing the seed. I'll save the debate on rolling for later.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Honestly, I was hoping to get some evening out and just overall better results. I know nothing about this and was hoping to get some good info from you guys. If you don't think that is the way to go, please explain. I am here to learn. Thanks,

  • grass1950
    11 years ago

    The issues that adding topsoil can have are 1. changing your drainage patterns. 2. raising the height of your lawn above sidewalks and driveways. If the purpose is to impove the seed bed, you can rent a fixed blade verticutter for the price on a yard of topsoil and use the verticutter to loosen the top layer of soil (less strenuous too and you can use it as a slitseeder). If you just want to level some slight low spots, you can use sharp sand--cheaper and easier to spread and level and easy to grow turf on. If you have major drainage or leveling problems than do go with the topsoil. There is nothing harmfull (other than what I've mentioned) with a thin layer of topsoil if that is what you prefer, but no real advantages over the alternatives and the downside is the cost and work involved.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Honestly, I was hoping to get some evening out and just overall better results. I know nothing about this and was hoping to get some good info from you guys. If you don't think that is the way to go, please explain. I am here to learn. Thanks,

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Sorry for the repost of my second post. Not sure what happened there. Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into that. Can you recommend any type of grass for my neck of the woods? As I said, I am leaning toward a fescue, but what is your opinion on this?

  • grass1950
    11 years ago

    tiemco is the expert for seed--dchall and texasweed and probably nearandwest can probably give advice for your southern lawns too.

    On aeration, with a new lawn there wouldn't be any problem in its use except for the increased chance of bringing up weed seed. I would only use it on a new lawn bed for adding some organic matter into the soil (lots of work) otherwise it really has no advantages in seeding.

  • tiemco
    11 years ago

    Tall fescue in Dallas. How much do you pay for water? I live in CT, and tall fescue near my driveway can show drought stress a few days after a rain. With the droughts and heat you have you will be watering every other day for most of the summer. I could recommend some cultivars, but only if you're sure you want to go that route.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    11 years ago

    All good stuff above. As you may have ascertained from tiemco's last post, there is no drought tolerant fescue. There are a few heat tolerant fescues. The Marathon family seems to be relatively successful in both the Sonoran and Mojave deserts. They do take a lot of water, though. Marathon is likely what your neighbors have if it remains green in the winter. Some people will overseed a bermuda lawn with rye grass in the winter. That has its issues.

    St Aug is usually the only grass in the south that will live under massive trees. You said the tree roots went under the foundation? Tree roots don't normally go under a house, because there's no water there? Is the tree older than the house? Are there signs the tree is lifting the foundation?

  • nearandwest
    11 years ago

    I will have to defer to texas-weed and dchall since they know about the Dallas area, and I know absolutely nothing about the types of grasses that are grown in the Dallas, TX area. But this is my question for them:

    Do many folks out there grow cool-season grasses all year long? I've always thought of the Dallas area as a warm-season turfgrass area.

  • texasredhead
    11 years ago

    No, people do not grow cool season grass in Dallas where we have multiple days/months where it is 100 or higher. Fescues burn up and weeds take over. Also, there is no grass that will survive heavy shade in this area. Basically, the most common turf grasses grown in this area are St. augustine and common bermuda. Areas in heavy shade are best handled with a ground cover.

  • nearandwest
    11 years ago

    Thanks, texasredhead. I was just wondering about that, which is why I asked. A similar scenario is in my hometown area of Columbia, SC where you will find mostly bermuda and centipede.

  • texasredhead
    11 years ago

    An Amusing story. Origionaly from Ohio, but have lived in Texas since 1971. Lost a bad poker hand with the compoany who sent us here.First time my parents came to visit, dad looked at my St. Augustine lawn and remarked why we had so much "crabgrass."

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Thanks everyone for the input. San Antonio, the roots of the tree are growing almost up to the foundation of my house. There are a few cracks in the ceiling of the room where the tree is growing. It could just be settling, but a friend that is a home inspector came over and said it might be a good idea to get rid of the tree. In fact, I posted a pic of the tree back when I first came on here and you even said to get rid of it.

    Anyway, I have more question. First, how do I go about killing my grass? Second, why is tilling not a good idea or not necessary? Third, I might be leaning toward St. Augustine now but I wonder how well it will work if I seed it instead of buying sod. My budget is not huge here and I'm on a corner lot with lots of grass.

    Finally, I went to lowes website and they offer information on seeding. Here is the link.

    www.lowes.com/cd_seed+your+lawn_205576406_

    Can you tell me if I should be following their advice to a T?

    Thanks again for info


  • grass1950
    11 years ago

    Here is Lowe's advice:

    "Seeding a New Lawn

    Using seed is the most common method of planting turfgrass. Whether you have an established lawn or you are starting a new one, the basic principles are the same.

    1.Dig or till to a 3-inch depth.
    2.Rake to remove clumps and clods.
    3.Smooth and level the surface. Remember, you are establishing a finished grade so include any contours needed for drainage.
    4.Add compost, topsoil and starter fertilizer. Work into soil.
    5.Roll with a weighted lawn roller.
    6.Spread seed. To ensure even coverage, sow half of the seeds in one direction and the other half at a right angle.
    7.Rake and roll again.
    8.Mulch with straw.
    9.Water frequently to keep the seeds moist (don't saturate). Cut watering back to once a day when the grass reaches about 1 inch in height.
    10.Mow when the grass reaches 2 1/2 inches - 3 inches.
    After it's been mowed three times, use a regular watering schedule of 1 inch per week.
    11.Apply a pre-emergent crabgrass control to stop germination of unwanted grass.
    Soil-to-seed contact is key to getting new seed started.

    Expect seed germination in one to three weeks, depending on variety, temperature, and sufficient water. It takes two to three years to see a picture-perfect lawn."

    There is very little there that I would agree with. As always, Till if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages of the process. Almost never will the act of tilling outweigh the problems it creates.. At the very least, Tilling will add air to the soil and cause settling problems. Tilling can bring up weed seed. In clay, or high magnesium soils, tilling will create clumps.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    11 years ago

    If you followed that plan to the letter you would have spent time and money on unnecessary stuff, you would be exhausted, and you would be lucky to have a lawn this season.

    This is a plan for a complete renovation on a fescue lawn. If you have a tractor with a box blade, then do step 1. If you are not using a tractor, then skip step 1. If you skip step 1, then you won't have to do steps 2-5. Step 6 indicates fescue or rye where you want to get even coverage. The rest of the common turf grasses will spread to form a carpet of turf regardless of how uneven the original seed was applied. Step 8 is local option. Most of the country has never heard of straw on a lawn. Lets just throw the whole thing out and start from the beginning, wherever that beginning is.

    If you are going with bermuda seed, you are probably just a little too late. If you are going with bermuda or St Augustine sod, you can do that any time. If you are going to try fescue despite the advice to the contrary, then next month is the time. Which do you have in mind?

    Are you going to nuke your old lawn with Roundup? I think you want to. Spray it once and wait a week for everything to die. Continue to water so you can see anything left alive. Then spray again to kill the stuff that did not die the first time. Wait a week to make sure it died.

    Then get rid of the old stuff with a vertical rake. Set it to just barely graze the soil and it will rake everything for you. Blow or rake that into your compost pile.

    Seed or sod.

    Roll with a water fillable roller (rented).

    Water every day, 3x per day, for 10 minutes each time. Do that until you get 80% germination or until the sod knits into the soil. Then back off on the watering.

    Mow whenever the grass is tall enough to mow.

    Fertilize with organics any time. Fertilize with chemicals after the summer heat is really over.

    Do not get any ideas about rototilling. You want this to be a good install, so don't till it. Tilling results in a lawn that gets bumpier and bumpier over the next 3 years as the tilled soil settles. Tilling is not a good idea for veggie gardens but people get away with it because they are rolling a vehicle through it every weekend.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Dchall,

    Thanks for the info. So, just to be clear, definitely use Roundup to kill the stuff now? My lawn is overrun with weeds, so I know Roundup will do the job, but I wanted to be certain there wasn't anything else I should do before killing it all.

    Also, I searched for "vertical rake" but didn't really come up with much. Can I rent one from a like a home depot or lowes? I did find several results for "power rake". Is this the same thing?

    And finally, can you confirm that I can get good results with St. Augustine seed? Most people in my neighborhood roll out the sod. I would rather do it the cheaper way if possible.

    Thanks again for all the info.

  • grass1950
    11 years ago

    On the verti-cutter/power rake issue. What some call a power rake can hve wire tines or flail blades (lose and swinging) or fixed blades. If the power rake has fixed blades it will perform the same functions of what is called a verti-cutter/slicer. Some rental places call them spot seeders or slit seeders. Common brands are Billy Goat, Bluebird, and Ryan (RenOthin). If it has verticle fixed blades you are GTG.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Thank you grass1950. Hopefully this machine is not too difficult to figure out.

    Dchall, if you have any more info on the killing of my current grass or my other question about what sort of results to expect with seeding of St. Augustine, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks again everyone.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Ok, after doing a little more research, it appears there is no St. Augustine seed. Is this correct? Once again, I am new to all this, but I want to get it right. My original plan was to go with a fescue, but you guys talked me out of it. What can I do besides sod to get St. Augustine?

  • dchall_san_antonio
    11 years ago

    Yes, there is no viable St Augustine seed on the market. Supposedly there is a variety of St Aug that produces viable seed but nobody seems to have any. I suspect that variety of grass has other issues. They are always trying to breed out the issues like drought tolerance, insect problems, and disease susceptiblity. Sod is your only choice for St Augustine.

    Yes use Roundup to kill the grass. It is the fastest and most reliable way to do this. There are other things you could do but they take time, cost a lot more, and don't work as well. I'm not a big chemical guy, but after 10 years of watching how things work, Roundup (or anything with glyphosate) really seems to be the approach used with the most success.

    There are several tools with vertical cutting blades. Ask all the rental places. Be sure you get blades and not tines or the flail.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Ok, I have been doing more research and I guess I'm going with St. Augustine sod. I measured the square footage and it looks like I'll need about 9 pallets to do my entire yard. Roughly $1300 depending on where I buy it.

    Should I follow the same instructions as far as laying the sod goes? Or, do I simply need to kill the grass, mow it really short, and then lay the sod? It seems like the sod would need to be actually dirt on dirt, but I honestly dont know.

    Also, am I supposed to dilute the Roundup? If I don't, I imagine I am going to be spending hundreds of dollars on just Roundup.

  • nearandwest
    11 years ago

    You do not want to lay new sod on top of short grass. You'll want to remove the dead grass, and have a good seed bed upon which to lay the sod. As you said, the sod needs to be "dirt on dirt."

    Roundup in concentrate form MUST be diluted. I have always used 3-4 oz. of Roundup per gallon of water. It usually takes about 7 days to start seeing results at the rate I use.

    There are pre-mixed containers of "Ready to Use" Roundup, but you are paying for Roundup already diluted in water. Why would you want to throw away money like that? I sure wouldn't.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Thanks for the info. So, how do you suggest removing the dead grass? Most here say that tilling is a big "no no". I suppose that might be my only choice now though. Thanks again for any info.

  • nearandwest
    11 years ago

    I agree that tilling is not a good option. You would not be pleased with the results of tilling. Using the power rake/verticutter may be your best option for removing the dead grass. You may have to go over it several times, and blow or rake off the debris on top of the ground after each time.

  • slingblade1177
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Ok, I think I understand now. I didn't realize the power rake/verticutter will remove the dead grass. I have never seen one nor any clue what it does. I will have to head to lowes/home depot and figure it all out. Thanks