I think I'd go with the Milo in this case as it has zero chance of harming the new grass. On the up side, it also contains a fair amount (1%) of calcium and a lot of iron to help build strong, healthy grass.

Not that urea has much chance, particularly at half rate, mind you. If you did that, you'd still almost certainly be just fine and any problems would be minor.

Thanks Morph! Last year was my first time using urea and had no issues but it was late November. Around here we can still get quite warm and even into early November I've seen mid 80's before. The lawn budget is getting really low at this point so urea would definitely save me some money (Milo is $12.97 a bag around here) but don't want to risk doing any damage to the $260 worth of seed I just put down.

What about dropping Milo somewhere around October 1st, then .5lbs per 1k urea two weeks later, then hit it with 1lbs per 1k for my final feeding? Does that sound feasible? Just trying to pump as much nitrogen in as possible without overdoing it.

Urea for the final winterizing application should be fine. Yoiu want to use a fast release for that one, not slow release. Andy in his fall nitrogen regimens advice said urea at half rate would be fine for baby grass after the "sprout and pout" period. He starts the small dose of urea 28-30 days after seeding. You might want to read his advice. Google "Andy fall nitrogen regimens" and you should be able to find it.

>>What about dropping Milo somewhere around October 1st, then .5lbs per 1k urea two weeks later, then hit it with 1lbs per 1k for my final feeding? Does that sound feasible? Just trying to pump as much nitrogen in as possible without overdoing it.

If your budget is strained (and after seeding I understand that!) then hold off on everything. Drop half rate urea a month after seeding (October 15 or so).

If it looks like final mow and the end of the season is still 30 days off on November first, drop full rate of urea. If it looks like the season shutdown will be before December first, drop half rate. If it's really cold and shutdown is imminent, skip it.

Then winterize with full rate urea when the grass stops growing. For you, that'll almost certainly be much later than my end of November, but one never knows.

Ok, that sounds like a good plan. If budget allows I might do the Milorganite but it ends up around $110 per app. Currently the lawn is recovering from the summer heat. In the 9 day period before overseeding I brought it down from 4 1/2" to 2" in three cuttings. Since our temps have cooled back down growth is definitely picking back up. The color has also come back somewhat but still nowhere near the deep dark green it was. For now I will play it by ear since I'm in that two week no touch period. By that time I'll make a decision on what to do and go from there. Thanks for all the help!

>>The color has also come back somewhat but still nowhere near the deep dark green it was.

That's normal for summer. My lawn is currently a much paler green than it will be in a month (and post us actually getting some rain, which we haven't had much of).

Cutting it shorter also cost you color. Once the overseed comes in, and you go longer again, that will help.

Wanted to post a follow up on my progress. Overseeded 9/15 and touched up a few spots on 9/27 along with a Milo app at bag rate. Color really came in nicely by 10/4 and lawn is doing really well. I dropped urea on 10/14 at .5lbs N per 1k which is already kicking in. I'm sure the 3/4" of rain we got immediately after really helped. Cut it yesterday at 3.5" and plan on another cut tomorrow at 3" eventually bringing it down to 2.5" by late November. I do have a few spots of chickweed that came up but a spot spray of 2,4-D should take care of that early next week. Overall I'm very pleased with the results over the past year since my reno and have learned so much thanks to all the folks here that have helped me along the way. Here's a pic from yesterday just after mowing. And yes, the whole neighborhood hates me right now.

Looks great--there's no comparison between you and the neighbors' lawns!

Forshee if you're still reading this thread: Can you take a pic of the lawn in the sunshine? It looks amazing and I want to compare it to my lawn so I can see how close I might be to yours (of course my lawn is a different grass, too). Maybe urea makes the difference? I've never used urea... not unless morpheus let's me use it. lol.

Urea is fine. It's an organic molecule, but works differently than grains.

All things considered, it's great for a fast feeding and green-up, but doesn't have the ability to deliver a sustained feeding over time like grains do (unless you use coated, slow-release urea, but even that's faster than grains).

It doesn't deposit much, if any, organic matter in the soil so the longest term advantages are pretty much zero.

However, urea's always acceptable as a boost to an existing lawn and works very well if you're otherwise organic and have a lot of carbon kicking around.

Daniel, here's a photo from a week earlier than the one I originally posted. It's not in the sun but it was brighter and shows the true color better. The color didn't change much at all from the urea app but it definitely came to life after the milorganite app at the end of September. So far this year I have put down alfalfa and milorganite twice each. I also put down used coffee grounds I get from the local coffee shop which equates to roughly 15 gallons per week. Not enough to do the whole lawn at once so it gets put down on the spots that need a little extra help. So far this year I've put down roughly 300 gallons of it. I've definitely seen the advantages of organics on the lawn this year and plan to continue with organics next year too.

My plan now is one last urea app at 1lbs N per 1k once the top growth stops for a winterizer which should be early December. Unfortunately we haven't had any rain in the last week and the new grass is begging for water so I'll be setting up the sprinklers this evening which gets really expensive!

This post was edited by ForsheeMS on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 15:23

"However, urea's always acceptable as a boost to an existing lawn and works very well if you're otherwise organic and have a lot of carbon kicking around."

Hey Morpheus, will the urea help break down mulched in leaves? My back yard will have a ton of leaves by the end of fall and I plan on mulching as many as possible. If urea doesn't help with that is there anything else that would?

Luckily the back yard is only 4.5k so watering in a urea app isn't too bad. Just did that yesterday and will probably do another app next week.

Yep! Urea's a nitrogen source, like any other.

Organics that are rich in protein are usually a little better at it as they hang at the soil surface longer, but urea will work fine.

Sounds good. Our average first frost date is October 21st to 31st. The current 10 day forecast shows lows in the 40's and highs in the mid 60's to mid 70's however around here it quickly changes. I'm going to get in as many weekly apps of urea as I can before the temps drop and top growth stops when I will do the heavier urea winterizer app but that brings me to another question.

Typically our ground never freezes through the winter. Worst case is we have some ice crystals form on the top crust of the soil for maybe a day or two at the most. That being said, would organics still be processed by the microbes through the winter here but maybe at a slower rate? I get all the used coffe gounds produced from a local coffee shop which I just started using in the early spring. According to the shop owner, his UCG more than doubles during the winter months so I'm looking at potentially 30 to 40 gallons per week. Is it going to hurt anything if I continue to spread those over the lawn thoughout the winter? After applying a relatively small amount of organics this year I have seen major improvements in the lawn quality so I really want to increase the OM over the next few years.

Even at below-freezing temps, organics process. They just tend to do it when it's a little warmer at the soil surface. :-)

Go ahead and add them, it's not going to hurt. If you find that you're not getting much decay and they're building up, just stop at that point.

If you can find a location to thoroughly dry the UCG, you can store it for quite a while before use. Left damp, it'll decay in any container or bag you put it in.

Ok, you've confirmed what I was thinking. I can never seem to get it dry enough to store without it molding so I'll just keep spreading it out. I only use it on the front lawn. I've got two small dogs in my fenced in back yard so I don't put it back there. Can only imagine coming home to these two jacked up on caffeine! I'm sure there would be major destruction. The front lawn is 15k so it's highly unlikely it will build up but if it does I'll just throw it in the compost pile. Nothing like free OM that requires only minmal work. All the employees at the coffee shop like it too since the trash they carry out at closing time is much lighter.

Not to steal this thread but can somebody remind me why hi nitrogen is good for winterizing? I thought P & K were better for root growth.

That last blast of quick release nitrogen will be stored in the root system which helps the turf make it through the winter and green up quicker in the spring. It's kind of like a bear fattening up just before hibernating for the winter.

There have been studies showing that adding potassium at that time can increase chances of snow mold. I'm sure Morpheus could explain this much better.

+1.

Nitrogen is what gets used at this time. P and K consumption aren't much different (lower, actually) than they are at any other point in the season. High N levels (which turn to carbohydrates after use and photosynthesis, indirectly) will increase winter survivability and may keep your lawn greener over the winter.

Potassium is pretty much harmless in modest amounts in winterizer, so most winterizers do have a little of it. If you were short, potassium will help with cold tolerance. But it's best if you kept the potassium at the correct level throughout the season as it's an all-around good weather tolerance enhancer and helps with disease resistance.

Potassium is also not a water pollutant. It doesn't increase eutrophication (the tendency for algae to bloom in waters and choke out other life). There's always and already tons of the stuff kicking around.

I never heard about the K increasing the chances of snow mold, but it does make sense. Increased K increases cold resistance, keeping the lawn greener further into winter when it can be snow-covered and then grow snow mold. However, if your P levels were optimal, that's happening anyway (and I'd never recommend a non-optimal level).

Phosphorus does cause eutrophication, and application late in the season encourages erosion of it and runoff as it doesn't penetrate soils quickly. The latest I recommend P additions is about six weeks before ground freeze, and I usually try to cut more time than that. Spring, summer, and early fall are the correct times to enhance phosphorus levels.

OK that makes sense. I'm not familiar with all the chemistry that goes on with N,P and K but if the N gets converted into carbohydrates at colder temps then I get it. Forshee, you've been using urea which I take it can be good for new grass, plus you are saving money that way rather than winterizing with a pelletized product.

Yes, last year I only put down 1 app of urea after top growth had stopped and only put down .5lbs of nitrogen per 1k. My lawn was green through the winter but I had some losses due to the heat of summer. This year I've only done 1 urea app mainly because we haven't had any rain and the size of my lawn makes it really hard to water in (urea must be watered in with at least 1/4" of water soon after its put down or you risk burning the lawn).

This year I did a reno on my parents back lawn. It's small at only 1,500 square feet so watering isn't an issue. I dropped alfalfa at time of seeding, milorganite after first mowing, and did a urea app at the 30 day mark and planning at least one more before the winterizer app. There lawn is already looking much better than mine did at the same point last year so I'm seeing the benefits of fall nitrogen apps. I'm still a beginner at all this but learning as much as possible along with some trial and error.

For larger lawns that you can't water, sulfur or poly-coated urea is perfect. It only releases when it gets wet, and the coating stops it from out-gassing to the atmosphere too badly under most circumstances.

It's still not quite what organics will do for you (as they only activate when damp), but organics can be a hassle on very large lawns.

"For larger lawns that you can't water, sulfur or poly-coated urea is perfect. It only releases when it gets wet, and the coating stops it from out-gassing to the atmosphere too badly under most circumstances. "

Hmm, that's got me curious. The local garden supply didn't have 46-0-0 urea this year. Instead they had 34-0-0 with Nutrishphere Superkicker. It also says something on the bag about sulfer. I asked and he assured me it was fast release. I put some in a small jar of water and it completely dissolved in a matter of minutes. I have Googled this stuff from Southern States and have found nothing on it. Sounds like it could be exactly what you're talking about.

My only concern with putting it out and not watering it in is the heavy dew we get this time of year. I'm afraid it would be enough to start it dissolving and cause burning.