I didn't know Barricade is more expensive then Prograss, which I already consider out of the hands of most homeowners. Sounds like you are in the biz which is always a good perpective here.

Shouldn't Dimension serve as a pre-emergent for poa? That is what it is labelled for but the past few years, it seems I get signficant breakthrough. In any case, I am using "poor man's Prograss" as you have guessed and applied it at the rate recommended for KBG. A few studies I have looked into reported that they had no control with one application but one did get reduced seedhead production. In any case, I am planning to apply the stuff one or two times more before winter. Let us know what results you get with the Prograss.

it had 20% POA; using DIM EC and Prograss 1.4 (liquid) on both. Going to get another product (best I can find) but $550 per gallon. Looks okay I guess.

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I've been digging out my poa annua, replacing it with new soil and adding some seed because I have tall fescue in the area. I did treat with Halts (no fertilizer) in mid-August but I was going to try Dimension in a month or so after my grass filled back in. If Dimension is not that effective should I stay with the Halts(pendimethilin)?

Dim is better then pre-m. See what the AI is in Halts and in Lesco Pre-M..

Why are you putting down Pre-m (gran) in MID August in CT? It will do nothing for anything since you are too early for POA control. Better time would be Mid Sept to Late Sep. Pre-m has a short window.

Actually, he's not too early for poa in Auguat. That's exactly when poa (in many parts of the east) starts to crank up. I should have put out a pre-post-m also, but was seeding. They say around here if I put Dim out in Oct it shoudl be alright, but that's not gonna get it...and it's been late every time. Every article I've ever read says to start the control in early fall (August or early Sept).

What ever pre-m you use, be mentally prepared to accept the fact that it will be a longer battle than you think...years in most cases, but it can be won. A big negative would be if you surrounding neighbors or land also have poa, then it's gonna be a real fight.

Here is a link that might be useful: mash here

egghead - also, make sure what ever you buy to combat this poa (which ever kind it is) you read the labels first. Some of these wonder treatments won't work on fescue. I know you said you have kbg, but a lot of folks mix fescue and kbg for a more durable lawn, so just be aware and check the product literature.

In the east was a little warm, over 80 to 85 (POA does not grow); and burn grass. Putting down Dim in Auguest is wasting money. In sept is better since temps are lower when it starts to grow. The residual for Dim is not long and in Auguest you would need to re-apply 5 to 6 weeks later since the #1 app did not or will not do anything.

I do not but aticle on when to apply, since the label says when to apply.

Also looks like people are using granular here, good luck since appling herbs with gran is not the great.

Why is spray better than granular--better coverage? I would assume you need to water in both well.

spray has quicker root uptake etc. Spray is like 24 hours in and gran needs days to work fully. Just saing good luck with gran since it is hard to know what you have put down aka little control. At least I have found that.

You need to water in both but spray with a sticker is 10X faster to work. But granular is cheap since you can buy a bag for like $40. A 2.5 gallons bottle of Dimension is $800+. But sq/ft vs sq/ft spray is way cheaper.

Pre-m and dim have there pros/cons. That is why I use Pre-m in the spring and then a split app of Dim on round #2. Pre-m is cheaper but stains and smells (to some). Dim is orderles, no stains but price is high. I only use gran for ferts.

I'll get some close ups of the troubled areas. My entire yard gets a good deal of shade, so it very well could be annua. One good thing though, it is real easy to pull, the roots are very shallow. I even have my 6 year old out looking for seedheads and gently tugging on them and throwing them into the woods.

As for some type of pre M...I'm struggling to pay for fertilizer right now, pre-m is on the bottom of the list of things to buy. Maybe I should just stop paying the mortgage for a few months and take advantage of a government bail out...

Here's an article on poa you might find interesting: The Spiritual Significance of Turfgrass by Marc Gellman. This forum interests me and I happened to scan this thread on poa (which I'd never heard of) and then went looking for more information about this pesky grass. If you don't have time to read the article, here's the spiritual lesson he's making: Nothing is perfect.

Here is a link that might be useful: Spiritual Significance of Turfgrass

Ethofumesate update: patches of poa that appeared in August, and to which I have had 3 applications made are clearly yellowed and dying. Surrounding kbg though appears somewhat stunted. I will have to see how this all plays out but I hope it is not similar to Certainty where kbg is easily killed if not careful. So far, I have not seen any poa trivialis die off, but I am not specifically spraying for it--sometimes I can't tell (especially after a mow). One study says it's even more sensitive to etho than poa annua. In any case, I have some new poa annua that germinated in September that have gotten one or two applications and will get one last one in 3 weeks time before winter.

I noticed today that my Home Depot still had Lesco fertilizer with Dimension 19-0-7. While not as high as the 24-0-11 (or whatever) I looking for, I think I can just apply more to get the 1lb/1000sq.ft of N. The Lesco product has 0.15% Dimension and costs $25. That's pretty good considering Dimension 0-0-7 costs $17. Bought a bag to use as my late fall application so I can maintain my pre-emergent coverage to the beginning of winter.

The problem is applying it that late will not help much, wasting it really for winter. It is not slow release so it will be wasted and applying a Pre-M that close to winter is just wrong.

Watch out the Lesco at Home Cheapo at times is NOT the same AI as The real Lesco stuff.

I will be applying a 50 to 7% slow reason of 24-0-11 in about 2+ weeks and I am done. Anymore will be wasted since ground will be frozen. After first frost 99% of weeds are dead.

The past several years, nov/dec have been very mild in my area. I have seen quite a bit of poa germinate in the winter, although one wouldn't think that were possible. Most of my lawn will get Lesco 24-3-11 and only the poa-affected areas will get the Dimension.

If you examine the Lesco sold at Home Depot, it is almost exactly the same. Lesco sells a lot of formulations and the same stuff (same ingredients and % coated) will cost you about $10 more at Lesco than at HD. Of course, any given HD in my area has only 2 or 3 Lesco products in my area--almost always starter and either weed-n-feed or plain or pre-m. I do agree that when the ground is frozen, fertilizer is wasted and environmentally irresponsible. I just don't think soil temps drop that low until well into winter.

I do not know what area but mild does not mean it will do anything. You are using granular and I still think that is poor for control. You did not state AI hereÂAfter the first frost any weed/feed etc are a waste at least in MA/CT etc. If I applied (sprayed) these I would be wasting money. Do you live in the south?

If you want to apply, good luck. It will do nothing in the NE region. If you live in the NE and apply dimension in Nov this is the reason why lawn people need to pass a test.

OK, you convinced me. Will save it for next early fall. I appreciate the info and guidance. Sometimes my war with weeds gets the better of me....

Just trying to save you the money and time. With Fert prices keep going higher and higher I am trying to really see when to apply etc. Again, where do you live?

In MA/CT the last app (of anything) I would apply is end of Oct MAYBE first week in Nov. Heck, most people have winterized there sprinklers now.

For POA/crab around here and maybe this week or next and that is it. Really, all the crab is gone now up here.

Have you had a freeze or frost yet. I do not know all but going through the same issue as you with POA on severla lawns. In fact, spray prograss tomorrow again. Smells great, not.

eriocaulon...
i just got some ethofumesate...and im the one with the severe poa annua problem, at day 70. any advice regarding application based on your experience?

I am in Ohio zone 5 and am enjoying 60-70 degree (high) days right now. In the past, I've put down winterizer either last week in October or first week in November. Right now, my lawn is looking great...but I always fret over the poa annua that I have only in selective areas--just don't want it get away from me next year. I thought I was doing great one year and did not put down fall pre-m--next year it was bad...

diclemeg. If you feel you want to try etho this year, do it NOW so you can get at least two application in and maybe you'll get some winter kill. Of course, your poa annua may have developed past the 4 leaf stage making them hard to kill. Since poa constrictor is about the same as nortron (% etho suspension) i believe, here is what I do. I put 1/4 oz in a 2 gallon sprayer and that is good for about 400 sq.ft--this concentration is for KBG. I make followup applications every 3 weeks. You want to avoid cutting the lawn or watering/rain for several days after so it can absorb. Drench as much leaf surface as possible (it absorbs in the leaf and doesn't move much) so make sure your sprayer tip is clean and is a good sprayer. I've replaced all the spray guns that came with my sprayers with high quality ones I got from Tractor Supply.

....1/4 oz per 400 feet. I hope you use a sticker too. I agree, now is the latest time too. I would cut a few days before app and wait till after a few days.

My Nortron instructions didn't mention needing a surfactant. Should I put some in the mix?

If you are trying to kill what is there, up to you. If you are using as a pre no.

What is odd is Nortron is more % then prograss but you are using the same ratio...Odd.

For KBG, 2-3 application spaced 21-28 days:

Nortron/PoaConstr (42% etho) - 9/16 oz / 1000 sq.ft.
Prograss (19% etho) - 1 1/2 oz / 1000 sq.ft.

That is corret for your grass. I only know one other product that is high % then Nortron and is to be way better then both here. Might dry that but I think I am fine. POA in front is gone. Back needs to wait till next year.

What product might that be? In any case, seems like no matter what you use, you have to dilute it down to what your grass type can take. I would not want desirable turf dead.

Buy25, are you selectively spraying Prograss for your lawns or spraying the whole lawn. My problem is that without seedheads, the poa annua can be hard to tell in certain sunlight--I may be missing some small ones because I am spot spraying.

i recently put down ethofumesate... should i include a surfactant ? i actually dont know what surfactant is.

I have been battleing poa annua for a number of years and have tried numerous things, such as, pulling it by hand, killing it with roundup, applying crabgrass preventer, etc. If someone has discussed a possible solution I have given it a try. After having no luck of killing or even controlling this stuff my next adventure into the war on poa is to try Prograss. Not a cheap alternative but hopefully it will provide some resemblance of success.

The supplier I purchased the Prograss from said they had tried applying it earlier in the fall but they had excellent results by applying it after the first hard frost with a follow up application 21 days later. I asked if there is an application in spring and they indicated nothing should be needed. With my experience with poa, I'll believe it when I see it or I guess I should say when I don't see it.

I live in Kansas and last night was our first frost and a good hard one at 23 degrees. So, today is Prograss Day.

I am going to use an ortho hose end sprayer so I can cover the entire yard. I have some small patches, large patches but then I also have random straglers that I want to make sure I hit. The mixture is 1 1/2 oz of Prograss per 1000 sq. ft..

I will keep you posted on the hopeful success of this project.

Not knocking ya but: read the product label since most times people whom you buy product from have no clue. And lastly, important, do not use a hose end sprayer! This is a professional product and the hose sprayer is so DIY and will not spray correctly (pattern, correct psi for coverage, AI per 1,000 sq/ft.. That is so wrong..

Ditto what Buy25 said. For sure, excessive application will kill or badly stunt desirable turf. If doing an entire lawn, you are better off getting a backpack sprayer. Bayer recommends diluting the recommended dose (the 1 1/2 oz) in 1-3 gallons per 1000 sq.ft. I personally use 2 gal of diluted spray for 400 sq.ft. spot sprayed for good leaf coverage.

I do recall reading somewhere that Prograss is effective at setting the poa up for winter kill, although I have already seen kill from multiple applications alone.

Buy 25 and Ericaulon, thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

Actually, I had just completed my review of the Prograss instructions and was contacting the supplier to get answers to my questions. One was whether I could use my tank sprayer. I don't use the hose end much as I like the contol of the tank sprayer and also dislike dealing with the hose. The supplier indicated that he thought the hose end sprayer provided better coverage and flow of the application. He was using one and was very pleased with the results. He gave me the brand name and reasons why he liked it. While I prefered the tank sprayer he had convinced me this was the way to go.

Buy 25 and Eriocaulon,after receiving your responses, I contacted Bayer about the application proceess and their opinion on how it should be handled. They indiaated that their are probably a number of ways that their rules and procedures have been adjusted and tweeked to acomplish the process successfully. Their instructions are what they consider to be the most accurate and effective way to apply
Prograss successfully. Which I agree, as this is the primary purpose of intructions. I believe the supplier has been successful in his approach to the applicaation but I am going pass on the use of the hose end sprayer and go for the tank. It wil no doubt take longer but I have a yard that is only 5000 sq ft. and I am not sure, after the past few days, whether I will be doing the entire yard. Most of the poa is in the backyard. The fromt yard may just get spot treated until I see how ths goes.

I have turf-type fescue and according to the Bayer chart I should to applying, per 1,000 sq ft, 2-4 ounces of Prograss to 1-3 gallons of water. Since my sprayer is 2 gal. I guess I wiL apply 3 oz of Prograss to 2 gals of water.

If anyone has a mixture, stronger or weaker, that is working I would be interested in hearing about it. I am goin to apply this mixtue this afternoon. Then finish the rest of the yard tomorrow with any needed adjustmnets.

Thanks to anyone that has any improvemnents or adjustments that they may have, whether positivre or negative. I just want to get input that will help this work,

Thanks again to Buy 25 and Eriocaulon for your input. It certainly helped me out.

I was not planning on writing so much. I will try to make it a shorter explanation next time.

Sounds good. Please let us know your results. This is the first year I am using ethofumesate and only a portion of my backyard is affected. For my KBG, only fall applications are recommended--I forget if that is different for TTTF or PRG.

Do you plan (or have time) on making another application in 3-4 weeks? I've read that one application does not produce results but not sure if that is the case at this time in the year.

"Two to three applications of Prograss applied between September and December are recommended per year with applications spaced three to four weeks apart. You may not be able to see results in the fall, but you should be able to see them the following spring.

Prograss' specific mode of action is unknown, but we do know Prograss causes a reduction in leaf waxes, the protective layer against water loss. This reduction may make Poa more susceptible to desiccation during the winter. There are reports that Prograss also may cause slight growth inhibition in Kentucky bluegrass, a darker green color on treated turf and a reduction in severity of dollar spot.

Our research has shown that Prograss is taken up through the foliage. Thus, when used postemergently, you should apply Prograss in a carrier volume that gives good foliar contact without excess runoff. Likewise, you shouldn't water-in Prograss applied postemergently immediately following application because it is not root-absorbed. The rate of Prograss absorption into annual bluegrass increases rapidly during the first three days after application but then levels off. This suggests that you should delay mowing or irrigation for 72 hours after application (if possible) to allow for maximum absorption, which may improve Poa control. Furthermore, our research shows that Prograss does not move out of the treated leaf. Therefore, good coverage of the entire plant is necessary to maximize control."

excellent read on ethofumesate results by researchers.

Here is a link that might be useful: U of Ga - review of ethofumesate research

That UofGa was done years ago. I printed back about 2 years ago. Good read. Problem is the product works for most then odd times not for a few.

But what Bayer said is printed on the bottle. You can download the label online.

For me, I have a mixture of grass so I had to play with the ratio's (KBG, fine F etc). I would also spray the complete yard since it [prograss] moves bigtime.

I know up in MA, it is past the time for POA control. With prograss and Dim EC on this fall, along with others, I am done till April 2009. Maybe some chelated iron in another month if weather allows.

washburn - I have a mixture also of TTTF, fine fescue and some KBG. I would like to apply Prograss from a hose-end app, so what would be the mix rate on the dial? One ounce per? Also, from what I read the optimum time is up until Jan? Is that correct, or does it depend on the temps?

I applied the Prograss to 1000 sq ft yesterday and plan to finish the rest today. I only have 5000 sq ft in total. The largest areas of poa are in my backyard, however, I have the junk spread throughout my entire yard. I plan to follow up with another application in 21days.

The instructions say not to overlap spray. I took precautions to watch this but wondered how everyone else is handling it. Has anyone overlapped to much and had a problem?

I had overlapped but this is why I use a tracker. Cost savings.

JimntC-Do not use a hose end way to apply this. I will sum it up like this for ya. These are professional products and this is why you need a license to apply to people lawns. Heck, progress is not intended for homeowners due to reasons like this.

Sorry jimtnc but I don't think I am going to be much help to you. I was going to use a hose end sprayer but decided to go with a pump sprayer as rcommended by the product instructions. As a personal preference I felt the pump sprayer provided better control of the application of prograss.

In regards to the optimum time to apply prograss, I believe that may be determined by where you live. I think the suggested time for application is September/October. In Kansas, my supplier has said the best time for a successful application is after the first hard frost followed by a second application 21-28 days later. That will usually put me into November, which is acceptable in Kansas but maybe not in other states. Sorry, but I don't have anything that I can refer you to that answers your question. Is there anyone else that can help jimtnc out with his question?

For Diclemeg and other renovators who had significant poa infestation, the following suggests use of ethofumesate in successive fall applications is productive. 5%KBG became 47% the first spring?!?!

From the U of Ga review:
"A mixed turf of 95% annual bluegrass and 5% Kentucky bluegrass can be treated in the fall with ethofumesate at low rates (0.75 lb/A) in September and October. The 0.75 lb/A rate seem to weaken the annual bluegrass allowing a shift during the winter and early spring from the original 5% to 47% population by spring the first year. It is important not to apply ethofumesate above 0.75 lb/A because of outright kill. Ethofumesate must be repeated each year until the desired turf level is reached and then repeated to maintain annual bluegrass control."

In the east was a little warm, over 80 to 85 (POA does not grow); and burn grass. Putting down Dim in Auguest is wasting money

Dimension remains effective for three months. An August application is what most professionals recommend, then it should be followed up with another dose in November.

Applying Dimension in August certainly isn't a waste of money -- it is smart turf-grass management.

You note that Dimension wasn't effective for you again Poa Annua; I'd suggest that is because you waited too long to make an effective application.

No pre-emergent is 100% effective. I made sure to apply early August--and at the heavier recommended application rate. I STILL got poa germination. I think maybe there could be just so many seeds that some breakthrough occurs. In any case, I managed to wipe out most of the poa that did come up with etho. I'll know if that is truely the case since I only spot sprayed.

I put down liquid Dim, never gran, in sept time frame and it WILL help with POA. It is not as good as prograss but it is cheaper per gallon and does more control. Both product here have there pros/cons.

The Nov treatment of Dim is a 50/50 here might be okay and might be a waste of time and money. I have found that dim does not have a 3 months window nor effective on many braodleaves. It it slightly less and doing one app is not the best. But doing 2 full apps in the fall and 2 full apps in the spring is illegal. It is over the limit of the AI. Read the 2.5 gallon jug or the bag.

Then throwing on Dim in Auguest could/can burn the grass up in the northeast east since it base is pretro (oil). That is why many wait for cooler weight here. Plus if using gran you are adding more then most times, needed.

Hey everybody, stop for a second. Does anyone have the ID of the annual bluegrass. Can someone show me the grass in question. In reviewing the pics so far and I am not seeing anything that resembles the nasty Poa annua. Can someone show me the vernation, auricle, sheath, ligule, collar, or leaf blade. Most importantly I have not seen the right growing enoviroment. I live in Missouri so Show Me.

POA is in his pictures, very clear. there are not close ups, but it is there.

The easiest remedy, imho? Mow 3 inches or higher. Apply preemergent + fertilizer granules in the spring and fall, such as stonewall 19-0-7 or dimension 19-0-6 or pre-m 19-3-7, and wipe the poa with roundup. Since it's KBG, it should fill in the spots that die out. Make sure you water in the preemergent within a few days of application and apply the roundup a week or so after fertilization so the poa will suck up the poison. After a couple of years of keeping an eye on any new poa popping up and repeated herbicide wiping of the poa, you should erradicate it fully.

Why would you pay $$$ for stonewall/dim (gran apps) then use roundup in the end?

Even though the name implies that it is annual grass, most poa annua is actually not annual. It can overwinter and produce seeds in multiple years. If you apply a preemergent + fertilizer in the spring and fall and wipe any new plants that broke through and any already existing poa clumps, eventually you will break the cycle and achieve control. This is a way cheaper method than using Prograss. You are already applying a granular fert, so using the product with the preemergent on it makes sense. Then, while you're out there, wipe the poa you see with roundup or just pull it. Pull and bag any plants already seeding. You will achieve control after a couple of years without spending $400 on a jug of prograss.

Poa control. I have used Barricade for controlling Poa. Its a pre-emergent you apply it in Sept-Oct. it covers for six months. Yo can also use it for Crabgrass control.

Here is a link that might be useful: Poa