Zoysia can tolerate light shade, and SA can tolerate moderate shade.

Of the SA varieties you have listed Palmetto has the highest shade tolerance.

Astphard, here's a list of tree shade tolerance from high to low for the 7 popular warm season turfgrasses:

St. Augustine
Zoysia
Centipede
Bahia
Bermuda
Seashore paspalum
Buffalo

So St. Augustine and Zoysia would do the best in the shade. The source is the book Turfgrass Management.

I don't know much about Augustine since it won't grow well here, but as for zoysia, the Diamond cultivar was the best performer in the most comprehensive shade test done to date, according to the May 2010 issue of GCM magazine (Golf Course Management magazine). The test was conducted in Dallas in the nineties. Dallas isn't too far from New Orleans so it might be useful to you. The next best performing zoysia cultivar was Zorro, followed by Crowne, Palisades, Royal, Emerald, and Marquis. Then came Cavalier and a few others.

Diamond is a cultivar in the Zoysia matrella species and it has really fine blades with high shoot density. It looks really good in the South.

Here's a really interesting passage from the GCM magazine article authored by Doctor Aaron Patton, a professor at the University of Arkansas--I love reading his stuff. Doctor Aaron is so, so smart.

"Zoysiagrasses are generally considered to have good shade tolerance. The most comprehensive study to date on the shade tolerance of zoysiagrass was completed in Dallas under 90% shade from southern live-oak trees (Quercus virginiana Mill.) (8). Cultivars were assigned a turf performance index (TPI) value of 1 each time they appeared in the top statistical grouping when rated for coverage, quality, color and density and a value of 0 when not in the top statistical group. There
were a total of 38 evaluations in this study over a three-year period, and the maximum TPI was 38. Diamond had the highest rating (TPI = 34);
followed by Zorro (TPI = 33); Crowne, Palisades, Royal, Emerald and Marquis (TPI = 31); Cavalier (TPI = 28); El Toro (TPI = 25); and Sunburst
(TPI = 22) (8). Belair and Meyer had the poorest shade tolerance (TPI = 16) and were in the top statistical category in less than 43% of all evaluations (8).

"Others have also looked at the shade tolerance of zoysiagrass. A greenhouse study evaluated five zoysiagrass cultivars under 90% simulated shade and found that Diamond and Shadowturf had good tolerance to shade, but Emerald, Meyer and Zorro performed poorly in shade (9). In a separate study (10), Cavalier, Diamond, El Toro, Palisades and Zorro all performed well in 50% shade; Meyer's performance was fair; and Zenith performed poorly. All zoysiagrasses do not grow equally well in shade. Selecting shade-tolerant cultivars will improve playing conditions and also decrease reestablishment costs."

I'd probably mix Palisades zoysia and Palmetto St augustine and let them fight out on their own.

We have a dog, and at some point down the line may have kids who'd play back there as well. That makes me think that the increased wear resistance of zoysia would be better.

This is where you are going to run into problems. While it is true Zoysia has excellent wear resistance generally speaking it has poor recovery times because it grows so slowly. With that said it makes no difference what variety because if you have ever owned a dog they are creatures of habit and will make trails. One will be the perimeter of the fence line, and no grass will ever grow there, not even Bermuda which has the best recovery times.

I assume from your list of choices that is what is available to you in your area and is what you are restricted too. It is a good idea not to stray from what is locally available because other varieties are not likely to preform well. If other cultivars performed as well or better, they would likely be available. So take that FWIW...

OK you have two Zoysia cultivars listed, so lets go over their shade tolerance and recovery.

Empire is a broad leafed texture, can be mowed with a rotary mower unlike some cultivars has slow to moderate growth rate, which means slow recovery time. Most importantly to you is it has POOR shade tolerance and not much better than Bermuda grass with respect to shade tolerance.

Palasades is another coarse textured zoysia grass with dark green color, moderate shade tolerance, moderately aggressive and a fair recovery time making is a good choice for golf fairways with light to moderate shade and thus your best choice of the two Zoysia varieties listed. One downside to it is it requires a Reel type mower cut at 1-inch or less which means frequent mowing due to its growth rate. Like any Zoysia is extremely sensitive to RUST, Brown Patch, Leaf Spot, and insect problems like army worms, mites and occasional use of fungicides and insecticides are required. Problem is compounded if maintained at taller heights.

Moving onto the Saint Augustine varieties. Make no doubt about it Saint Augustine shade tolerance is superior to all Zoysia varieties and far more aggressive in growth rates. Downside is they do not have good wear resistance but recover much faster from damage. SA will require more fertilizer and water, but less frequent mowing and a rotary mower can be used on any variety. So of your two choices:

Delmar is a semi-dwarf variety which means it should be maintained at 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 inches. It has excellent cold weather tolerance which makes it an excellent choice for the transition zones. It has very good shade tolerance. The down side is it has POOR Chinch bug and SAD resistance the two curses of SA grass. In addition it is a slow spreader compared to other varieties of SA grass and slow to recover from damage. Not your best option.

Palmetto is another semi-dwarf variety and should be maintained at 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 inches. It has excellent shade, heat/cold weather, drought, and disease resistance. It has a very dark green color, finest texture of the SA varieties and velvet and feel to it. Resembles Fescue from a distance. It also has a aggressive growth habit and recovers quickly from damage. Its only weakness like any any of the semi-dwarf varieties is Chinch bugs like to eat it, and you may have to use insecticides to control them if you live in an area where SA is a popular grass like Florida or along the Gulf Coast.

So there is no perfect solutions. Based on your choices either Palmetto or Palasades. Palmetto is the shade champion and recovery champ, and Palasades is the toughest wear resistance.

Thanks for the extraordinarily helpful feedback so far. Just to clarify in terms of how these cultivars were picked, it was basically just online research (though some sod distributors did say these were available here). The Louisiana agriculture people recommended these varieties (at least Palmetto & Delmar, and I think the zoysia ones as well). Though I had read about some other zoysia varieties, there was an article from the Dallas paper, I believe, where the garden expert thought that the coarse-bladed zoysia varieties were better for regular homeowners than the finer-bladed ones, which eliminated some other zoysia varieties. So if there is a cultivar (of SA or zoysia) that you think we should look into, please let me know.

Based on the comments so far it sounds like the Palmetto SA might be our best option because it has the highest shade tolerance and repairs quickly for when there is wear and tear. If Lou_Midlothian's recommendation was to be followed to mix the SA and zoysia, would we do SA sod and then seed in some zoysia? Or should we just start off with one and see how it goes?

Texas-Weed wrote:
One downside to it is [Palisades zoysia] requires a Reel type mower cut at 1-inch or less which means frequent mowing due to its growth rate.

As I demonstrated in a different thread yesterday, someone here picks cutting heights out of thin air apparently.

Palisades is a zoysia variety that can handle a wide range of cutting heights from 0.5 inches to 2.5 inches. You do NOT have to cut Palisades at 1 inch or below, and you do NOT have to use a reel mower.

From New Life Turf:
"Palisades is a medium to coarse textured turf noted for its shade tolerance and low water use requirements. It tolerates mowing as close as 1/2 inch with good weed competitions ideally as high as 2 inches to 2-1/2" for home lawns."

So Astphard, you do NOT need to go out and buy a reel mower for Palisades. A rotary mower will suffice if you choose a higher cutting height of 1.5 or 2 inches (and you'll enjoy fewer weeds). My rotary will cut as low as 1.3 inches, but I stick to a mowing height of 2 inches.

Also from New Life Turf:
"When maintained as a golf course fairway or sports field, Palisades will require two weekly mowings with a reel mower at heights ranging from 1/2" to 7/8". When utilized for home lawns, the rotary mower will provide quality turf with weekly mowings."

And I'm pleased to say one of the resident experts here, Lou_Midlothian, agrees with the higher cutting height for Palisades. In response to the question What is the best type of mower for Palisades Zoysia??? Lou wrote in 2009:

"Rotary mower at 2-3 inches cutting height (you decide what looks best) is fine as long as you maintain sharp blade at all times. Zoysia tend to wear out blade fast. Keep air filter clean too. Most people don't do that and it saps power..."

As a sidenote, I knew zoysia was growing in popularity in North Texas, but it seems zoysia is becoming more common in South Texas too. Someone in Houston wrote in 2005 on a different site: "Zoysia is starting to catch on in certain newer subdivisions in Houston because the newer varieties of cultivars are better suited. I chose Palisades....There are plenty of new homes in the Woodlands that are using Cavalier but its too much maintainance. Fine Bladed varieties are not for me. I chose one that is more vertical and thicker bladed. It's like the best of St. Augustine and Fairway quality Bermuda. El Toro is another similar Zoysia cultivar."

Texas-Weed wrote:
One downside to it is [Palisades zoysia] requires a Reel type mower cut at 1-inch or less which means frequent mowing due to its growth rate.

As I demonstrated in a different thread yesterday, someone here picks cutting heights out of thin air apparently.

Palisades is a zoysia variety that can handle a wide range of cutting heights from 0.5 inches to 2.5 inches. You do NOT have to cut Palisades at 1 inch or below, and you do NOT have to use a reel mower.

From New Life Turf:
"Palisades is a medium to coarse textured turf noted for its shade tolerance and low water use requirements. It tolerates mowing as close as 1/2 inch with good weed competitions ideally as high as 2 inches to 2-1/2" for home lawns."

So Astphard, you do NOT need to go out and buy a reel mower for Palisades. A rotary mower will suffice if you choose a higher cutting height of 1.5 or 2 inches (and you'll enjoy fewer weeds). My rotary will cut as low as 1.3 inches, but I stick to a mowing height of 2 inches.

Also from New Life Turf:
"When maintained as a golf course fairway or sports field, Palisades will require two weekly mowings with a reel mower at heights ranging from 1/2" to 7/8". When utilized for home lawns, the rotary mower will provide quality turf with weekly mowings."

And I'm pleased to say one of the resident experts here, Lou_Midlothian, agrees with the higher cutting height for Palisades. In response to the question What is the best type of mower for Palisades Zoysia??? Lou wrote in 2009:

"Rotary mower at 2-3 inches cutting height (you decide what looks best) is fine as long as you maintain sharp blade at all times. Zoysia tend to wear out blade fast. Keep air filter clean too. Most people don't do that and it saps power..."

As a sidenote, I knew zoysia was growing in popularity in North Texas, but it seems zoysia is becoming more common in South Texas too. Someone in Houston wrote in 2005 on a different site: "Zoysia is starting to catch on in certain newer subdivisions in Houston because the newer varieties of cultivars are better suited. I chose Palisades....There are plenty of new homes in the Woodlands that are using Cavalier but its too much maintainance. Fine Bladed varieties are not for me. I chose one that is more vertical and thicker bladed. It's like the best of St. Augustine and Fairway quality Bermuda. El Toro is another similar Zoysia cultivar."

Oops, sorry for the 3 posts of the same identical message. My browser was having a problem, so I kept reloading. Yikes.

ZS you need some professional help with your OCD. Your a sick Puppy.

If you were to actually read from multiple sources and quit reading only what you want to hear, you might actually learn something useful and beneficial.

You might learn that all Zoysia varieties are heavy thatchers. Thatch layer is where the insect and diseases lay which make Zoysia extremely vulnerable to Zoysia Patch, Dollar Spot, Rust, Brown Patch, and multiple insect infestations. It is the perfect breeding ground.

You would also learn Thatch build up is accelerated from mowing high allowing the clippings to settle beneath the canopy where the mower cannot cut into fine pieces to accelerate decomposition. In addition you would know Zoysia needs a good scalp mowing every spring, and renovated by verti-cutting mid season to control and remove thatch build up thatch.

These are the things experience teaches us and you learn with time like 33 years growing the stuff professionally. So you go right ahead with your terrible advice because it is going to bite you in the butt. If Lou were to see this he would tell you the same thing. You are just embarrassing yourself with your BLATHER and IGNORANCE.

Texas-Weed, you continue to embarrass yourself. You have many years in the grass business yet you exhibit a profound ignorance when it comes to keeping up with the latest science. You rely on anecdote, not science. You presume to be more knowledgeable than Research Scientists who rigorously study and experiment with zoysia and bermuda every day. These are scientists who publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals. That is their profession, and, unlike yourself, they only make statements that are supported by scientific evidence, not assumptions like you.

You don't know more than the many university and scientific sources I've quoted over several threads here. For you to think you do is more than a little pretentious of you. For all the scientific sources to say one thing, and Little Texas-Weed to say another is glaring.

Start reading and consulting reliable sources and stop pulling cutting heights and other figures out of thin air. I've noticed you've given lots of bad advice here. I've noticed this since I first joined over a year ago.

Lou_Midlothian and the New Life Turf company directly disagree with you on the cutting height of Palisades. A 3 or 4 inch cutting height would be a thatch-producing height, not 2 inches like Lou and the New Life Turf company recommend.

You have a tendency to want to lump zoysia in with bermuda. They are very different grasses. I've noticed you often confuse bermuda's characteristics with zoysia's. According to Pennsylvania State Professor A. J. Turgeon, bermuda has the highest thatching tendency of the 7 popular warm-season turfgrasses. Next comes Seashore Paspalum. Then comes zoysia and St. Augustine. So you see bermuda and seashore paspalum are both ahead of zoysia and St. Augusinte when it comes to high thatching tendency.

Let me introduce yet another scientific source. Let's see what 3 professors at the University of Florida list as the range of mowing heights for zoysia:

0.25 to 2.5 inches, cultivar-dependent

As I mentioned yesterday, you said 1.5 inches is the maximum cutting height for any zoysia cultivar, even the wider-bladed ones.

The Source web site for the 3 University of Florida professors is:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=es&q=cache:Xh6arN61GQkJ:http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/LH/LH01100.pdf%2Bzoysia+university+of+florida&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&ct=clnk

And let's see. Those 3 professors are:

J. Bryan Unruh, associate center director and professor, West Florida Research and Education Center, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, Jay, FL

and

L. E. Trenholm, associate professor, turfgrass specialist, Department of Environmental Horticulture, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL

and

J. L. Cisar, professor, turfgrass specialist, Ft. Lauderdale Research and Education Center, Institute ofFood and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, FL

And then we have Little Texas-Weed who purports to know more than scientists working across the country from California to Texas to Florida - LOL

Okay, Texas-Weed, keep giving your bad advice to folks here. Astphard, I guess you do need to buy a Reel Mower and cut Palisades no higher than 1 inch. Forget about what Lou_Midlothian, the New Life Turf company, and the dozens of scientists and textbooks I've quoted say.

Johnny Brown and Bragg Williams are personal and professional friends of mine, and have been since 1981. They are the co-owners of New Life Turf in Norway, SC. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from further use of their company name on this forum without their expressed written permission.

Hi NearAndWest, how are you doing. What I said about your friends' company was very complimentary, and I included a link to their Palisades Zoysia page in an earlier post :-)

I'm sure many folks from South Carolina read this forum, and now they know about a fantastic company. I loved perusing their web site. It's very well done. And I learned a lot about Palisades Zoysia from their web site.

ZoysiaSod please go away. YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE AN AGENDA! I don't care to read your crap. TW has contibuted far more than you have ever.

Rager_W, please stop with the off-topic posts. I would ask you what my agenda is, but then that would be another off-topic tangent. I wasn't aware I had an agenda other than to learn and share about grass. Your post was very rude, and I have Never been rude to you. Nice.

Good morning. Been doing some interesting reading this morning. Professor Aaron Patton and Professor John Boyd, both of the University of Arkansas (Fayetteville and Little Rock, respectively) authored a Lawn Calendar for Zoysiagrass.

Midway down the document Doctor Aaron and Doctor John write:
"Zoysiagrass should be mown at 0.75 to 2.5 inches.

Cultivars such as Emerald, Cavalier and Zorro can be mown at heights from 0.75 to 1.5 inches.

Other cultivars should be mown at 1.5 to 2.5 inches. Higher mowing heights may be needed on uneven lawns to avoid scalping.

Mow often to avoid removing more than one-third of the leaf blade. It isnʼt necessary to collect clippings unless they remain as clumps on the lawn surface."

Meyer Zoysia, by the way, is the most widely used cultivar of zoysia in Arkansas. Arkansas is split in half climate-wise. The northern half of Arkansas is in the Transition Zone while the southern half of the state is in the Southern Climate Zone. The Meyer cultivar of Zoysia isn't really used much at all in the Southern Climate Zone of the nation, so I'm guessing much of the Meyer in Arkansas is found in the state's northern half--but just a guess.

Meyer is also the most widely used zoysia variety in Tennessee, which is wholly within the Transition Zone.

Here in Missouri, I would think Meyer is the most common Zoysia too.

ZS like I said you are one Sick Puppy and need professional help with your OCD.

You cannot even understand what you read or how to interpret it. For example in Academic writing CAN BE does not mean you should but can be done but with consequences.

You also leave out a lot of information in the links you post. The reason you do this is obvious because you do not want to see/hear it and hope no one calls you out on it. In your searches I am certain you have read that Zoysia curse is Thatch build up which is caused by many factors but cutting high and infrequently which leads to all the problems with Zoysia. That is why it is recommended to use Reel Mower and cut as low as possible. Sure you can cut higher with a rotary mower but it comes with consequences. That is something you do not want to hear about or anyone else to know about. Case in point with your last burst of BLATHER an misinformation you used a link to the University of Arkansas and conveniently left out a few parts like:

Once Zoysia grass becomes established it can become Thatchy especially when mowed high and infrequently... Thatch needs removed every two or three years.

Zoysia grasses perform best when mowed with a reel mower; However good performance can be achieved with a rotary mower with sharp blades set as low as possible without scalping.

Any reasonable person with a public education can clearly understand Zoysia should be cut as low as possible with a reel mower for best performance, but can be cut higher with consequences.

You try to come across as an expert or a pro with experience when it is plainly obvious you are not even amateur status. You only read articles that fits your agenda and ignore anything contrary to your agenda from credible sources. No one is going to take you seriously because you are not objective and incapable of interpreting what you read, and only seek POV that fits you narrow limited knowledge. You have no practical application experience, just BLATHER.

Oh, okay, have it your way.
Yawn.

Oh my goodness, Texas-Weed, it's a full-time job correcting all your mistakes.

Cutting zoysia once a week is NOT infrequent mowing that will lead to excessive thatch. My zoysia has never been cut more often than once a week, and it's never had a thatch problem. But don't rely on my anecdote. Let's look at what Alabama A&M and Auburn have to say about cutting frequency and height.

But first before we go to Auburn and Alabama, let's remember from the previous posts in this thread that 2 University of Arkansas professors and 3 University of Florida professors allow for a maximum zoysia cutting height of 2.5 inches, which is significantly higher than your maximum of 1.5 inches, Texas-Weed.

Now onto Auburn University's and the University of Alabama A&M's advice for mowing heights and mowing frequencies of various Zoysia grasses.

The first thing shown on each line below is the name of the Zoysia species or of the specific cultivar/variety within the species.
The second thing shown is the Minimum Mowing Height in inches for that grass.
The third thing shown is the Optimum Mowing Height in inches.
The fourth thing is the Maximum Mowing Height in inches.
The fifth and last thing shown is the Mowing Frequency in days (it's shown in parentheses).

Zoysia japonica, 2 , 2 , 3 , (every 7-10 days)

Meyer Zoysia, 1 , 1.5 , 2 , (every 10-14 days)

Belair Zoysia, 1 , 1.5 , 2 , (every 7-10 days)

El Toro Zoysia, 1 , 1.5 , 2 , (every 7-10 days)

The above are all cultivars within the Zoysia japonica species (Palisades is also within this japonica species). This species tends to have wider blades and lower shoot density than the other two main zoysia species, which are Zoysia matrella and Zoysia tenuifolia.

The tenuifolia species is not common in the U.S. A little bit of it is used as ground cover in parts of Southern California.

Alabama A&M and Auburn also list mowing heights and frequencies for some cultivars in the Zoysia matrella species. These thinner bladed grasses have a maximum mowing height of 1 inch, tend to have denser shoot density than the cultivars within japonica, and tend not to have the cold hardiness of the japonica's, so they're not found around here in the northern half of the Transition Zone.

Yes, that document is "Under Review," (because universities like to catch mistakes, Texas-Weed), but I saw similar mowing frequency numbers for zoysia printed on the web somewhere else a couple months ago--I don't recall where right now. By the way, I read in a couple textbooks I got from Amazon that a little thatch is helpful to grass. It is *excessive* thatch that is not.

ZS you are an moron. You just posited the last in nail in you coffin. As as been stated many times you cannot even comprehend what you read. So I am going to use your own link to hang you with. Again you conveniently leave out information to fit your agenda, and hope no one actually checks you source.

So with your own link from the University of Alabama.

From the Mowing section:

Zoysiagrasses provide their best appearance and quality when mowed to between 1⁄2 and 1 inch in height. A reel mower is recommended for the highest-quality appearance.

You really need to quit posting, you are making a fool out of yourself.

Well that did not print right. Should read:

Zoysiagrasses provide their best appearance and quality when mowed to between 1/2 and 1 inch in height. A reel mower is recommended for the highest-quality appearance.

Texas-Weed wrote:
> ZS you are an moron.

Texas-Weed, you sure know how to make friends, don't you.

How many times are you going to break GardenWeb's guidelines of not attacking other members? And engaging in name-calling?

You must be a hit with your family, too.

TW, who are you trying to kid?

Did it ever occur to you that 1 inch could be a typo?
The "1 inch" sentence you quote ends by saying refer to Table 2. And Table 2 shows that the *Optimum* heights for
several zoysia cultivars are 2 inches and 1.5 inches.
2 and 1.5 are both greater than the number 1, Texas-Weed.

The coarser (wider-bladed) zoysias can be maintained higher than the finer (thinner-bladed) varieties. Take the entire document as a whole, not a single sentence. Why would you overlook the numbers shown in the Table? The 2 and 1.5 are repeated several times throughout the table, so they are not likely to be typos.

In this thread alone, I've quoted at least 6 different professors from 4 different universities. I've also quoted a respected turf company's web site, and a very highly respected member of GardenWeb (Lou_Midlothian) who wrote about this back in 2009.

Forgot to add:

Texas-Weed, try to debate without the vitriol. Learn how to attack the message, not the messenger. That's what any fine debater does.

So that's a little constructive criticism for you. Not sure it will help though.