That organic ship has already sailed. Chemical fungicides are the absolute worst thing you can use on a lawn...except maybe diesel fuel. You've used two apps. At this point you need to ignore the disease and try to get the soil back to normal.

If it has been at least 3 weeks since your last fungicide, then you can apply compost at a rate of 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet. Scatter that with a shovel and sweep it in and off the grass blades with a push broom. Water it down and in 3 more weeks your soil should be on the road to recovery.

I'm not convinced you have/had a disease, although watering 4x per day is kind of a clue. If you were only watering for 5 minutes, 4x per day that should not cause a disease. If you were watering for 30 minutes, 4x per day, then you brought it on with too much water.

Most of the microbes in the soil are fungi. They are there to decompose grass clippings and dead grass that falls to the ground. Of course they are also there to do thousands of other things, but if you don't see large circles, rings, or patches of dead grass, you can claim victory. But now you have wiped out a significant portion of the soil biology. The compost will bring it back. Be sure the compost smells like very fresh soil. If it smells sour, rank, dank, maneury, rotten, ammonia, or anything other than very fresh, then you should look for another source of compost. Finished compost always smells wonderful.

If you want to do organic lawn care, you're going to have to get away from the liquids. The grass needs pounds and pounds of nitrogen. The liquids supply fractions of an ounce of nitrogen. The dry fertilizer I like is alfalfa pellets. In your area it might be cheaper to just get soybean meal. The app rate for soybean meal is 15 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Your first app should come about 3 weeks after the compost app. That will ensure your soil is ready to go to town on the soybean meal. 15 pounds of soy provides about a pound of nitrogen. That's what you need.

Organic lawn care should be very low hassle. You're making way too much out of it. Next time you have an issue, or you find yourself listening to the Scotts commercials during the spring golf tournaments, please chill out and see what's going on here on this forum.

If you want to help your lawn for next year, wait until it stops growing this fall and then apply a high N, fast release chemical fertilizer. That will be your only chemical fertilizer for the year. Then don't do anything but mow and water until late May (Memorial Day). There is almost nothing that can go bad with an organic lawn before July, so relax. Memorial Day is when you can apply soybean meal again. Milorganite is also a good source of nitrogen and iron.

Thanks for this! The ship has indeed sailed because I cut the lawn this afternoon and saw the large brown rings and panicked and put down Heritage G…. I read on here somewhere that it was supposed to be the best if there was fungus….ho hum…. I guess I start new next year and read more on here… I forgot to mention that we have a large area that despite putting a dry well in this year remains wet a lot of the time and takes a long time to dry out so I think this adds to the fungus problem :( I know I definitely had brown patch and it's now back again….I've been trying to build up the soil with seaweed fertilizer and crab shell as well as Jonathon Green's 'love your soil love your lawn' but perhaps overseeding and more overwatering brought it back
BTW Which 'high N, fast release chemical fertilizer' do you recommend? (I was going to put down an organic winterizer at Thanksgiving time is that right?) Next week I was planning on applying the following to make up for the H bomb I dropped today on the soil:
http://organicplantmagic.com/Home/ with Neptunes Harvest Turf Formula http://www.neptunesharvest.com/bfoga2.html

>>Thanks for this! The ship has indeed sailed because I cut the lawn this afternoon and saw the large brown rings and panicked and put down Heritage G…. I read on here somewhere that it was supposed to be the best if there was fungus….ho hum….

OK, so for the next two weeks your soil is officially a killing ground. We work with it.

Skip the Neptune's Harvest. Instead, get yourself a few bags of well-finished compost that's very finely ground (most commercial compost should be). Scatter it evenly across the lawn at about 5 to 10 pounds per thousand square feet (more won't hurt in the slightest), then water that in.

That'll restore the fungal populations over time, but it'll take a while. Let that cook until spring.

The only modification I might make to David's plan is to apply 10 to 20 pounds per thousand square feet of cracked corn or corn meal in late April or early May. That'll inject trichoderma fungi into your lawn, which are nice, friendly little vampire fungi that hunt down disease fungi, drill holes in them, and suck them dry, leaving the desiccated bodies to rot.

No, literally. I'm not kidding. It'll help protect you against fungal infections next year (and lay off the Heritage G).

There are other things, quite harmless to you and the other soil fungi, that can be used if you have another outbreak. We'll discuss those if it happens.

>>BTW Which 'high N, fast release chemical fertilizer' do you recommend?

The cheapest that doesn't contain fast release nitrogen. Many of us use (very cheap) urea at 46-0-0, but I don't as I find it too touchy and my applications that late too slapdash (it's cold out there and I don't like being cold).

I use Vigoro 29-0-5 at about 4 pounds per thousand square feet (a bit less), and that's nice and cheap as well.

Thanks - I like the idea of the corn meal to be preventative…. I have read about it before….where do it get this stuff in these amounts in a quiet little town like Wellesley MA (or obviously close or not so close by?)

Clueless, specifically, but a place to start is grain mills, farmer's co-ops, and restaurant supply places (they go through a lot of corn meal).

The last one will be the most expensive. You don't need corn that's approved for human consumption. I use feed grade.

Call these folks and ask where the local feed stores are.

Dover Saddlery
595 Washington St
Wellesley, MA 02482
Open today (Saturday) 9:00 am �" 8:00 pm
doversaddlery.com
(781) 235-1411

fpmom,
I live in central massachusetts and my lawn seems to have a similar problem as yours.
Please see my post DC and Morph More Help Needed.
My post has pictures and I appreciate your thoughts on the Jonathan Green products you have used, they are carried by my local hardware store and was interested in trying them.

Thanks

claga I LOVE Jonathon Green products….have been using them for about a year and like what they do…particularly the 'magical' when seeding and 'love your soil' has been good on our new houses awful soil….their seed is fantastic and I recently fertilized with their organic fertilizer (the N is not too high) and our lawn has been a deep dark green ever since - well until I took to the fungicide which has it looking less than happy atm (will def use it again)… the other thing I recommend really highly is 'Organic plant magic' and 'Neptunes Harvest' products…. besides the fungus the lawn has looked great -much better than when the sod was first laid even (have attached a photo just before I put the fungicide down)

fpmom,
Similar story moved into a new developement 3 years ago and the soil that was there and used is lousy,
I listed the lawn service program i was on for the last 3 yrs.
I was told by the service the lawn suffered from red thread in July and brown spot in August / Sept.
I am ready to take the advice given by Dc and Morph and try using organic products starting next spring and change the watering technique to once a week...I am going to use a high nitrogen syntheic this fall,,,I believe I have one more winterize feeding from the lawn service I am finishng the year out with.
good luck with your lawn and thank you for the informantion you provided about the jonathan green products..

Thanks Claga

I am interested to understand more as to why 'organic' advocates are saying to use a high 'N' synthetic as a winterizer i.e. Thanksgiving? Seems to be hypocritical but with the caveat being that I/we have just used fungicide I am guessing this is the reason - I would just like to understand better as to why since the products I have been using have been working well for the soil/lawn - I intend to use and will be able to use better cultural practices next year given we won't be laying sod mid-summer!!!

Organics are great. Except for winterization.

Temperatures have fallen too low for speedy (so to speak) decay when the lawn's stopped growing, and in many areas the time period from growth stoppage to dormancy is less than the decay time would be even if it were warm.

If you absolutely insist on organics at that point, blood meal can be used--but it's going to be sticky, stinky, and expensive in the amounts required and does need a bit of special treatment to avoid burning the lawn.

Thanks for that explanation - helps to know why I should do certain things with the lawn….I've never used a chemical fertilizer before as I have been worried about burning the lawn - can you please advise?
And when do you suggest to do it? Thanksgiving?

fpmom, DC, and Morph
is Jonathon Green's 'love your soil love your lawn' a fertilizer or a soil betterment product?
If it is a soil betterment product can I use Jonathan Green's organic fertilizer 8-1-3 or 10-0-1 along with at the same time?

thanks

I have used 'love you lawn love your soil' along with other products or alone to help improve the (crappy) soil…usually with the 'magical' - I also put it down to help the water problem I have (where we put a dry well in) to help the water get through the soil
So to answer your question I use it as a soil improver rather than fertilizer but then improving the soil helps the lawn…. I swear by the neptune harvest as a great fertilizer and also the 'organic plant magic' - I will put down both next week to help replenish the soil after nuking it this week with the fungicide …my sod looked great when it was first put in but since using all these products it is such a luscious dark green and a million times better - probably the greenest in the street (and they use all the lawn companies)… which is why I was so disappointed with this ongoing fungus problem since I didn't want to put the fungicide down - kinda glad I did it last week when I did though because the high weather temps and humidity this week would have spread it
PS I used the JG organic fertilizer about a month ago and it made my lawn look amazing within a week or so after

Thanks for that explanation - helps to know why I should do certain things with the lawn….I've never used a chemical fertilizer before as I have been worried about burning the lawn - can you please advise?
And when do you suggest to do it? Thanksgiving?

fpmom,
is there a specific name for the neptune harvest fertilizer?
application rate is it expensive?

do you think it's to late to put down the Jonathan Green fertilizer?

thanks

>>I've never used a chemical fertilizer before as I have been worried about burning the lawn - can you please advise?

If you apply at bag rate, you're golden. That will target 0.9 to 1.1 pounds of nitrogen per thousand, or way below the burn rate. Particularly at growth stoppage when it takes a lot more nitrogen to burn than at other times.

The proper time is whenever topgrowth has finished for the season. For me, that's often Thansgiving week, but plus or minus three weeks isn't at all unusual. And it usually takes me about a week to figure out that growth actually has stopped...

Neptune Harvest seaweed and fish fertilizer is great but they just brought out a 'turf' formula which I plan to try on the weekend
I would still put down the JG Org fertilizer NOW since you have over a month till Thanksgiving for the winterizer and given the weather the soil is still warm
PS Get 'Organic Plant Magic' - it's amazing! I mix it with the Neptune harvest seaweed fertilizer and put it on the lawn with a hose and the results are amazing - like its on steroids
http://organicplantmagic.com/Home/
PS I caveat all this with the fact that I am a newbie and this is advice an organic lawn expert gave me and I had amazing results i.e. last winter my lawn was still green in Jan

>>PS I caveat all this with the fact that I am a newbie and this is advice an organic lawn expert gave me and I had amazing results i.e. last winter my lawn was still green in Jan

You're correct. This week is still fine for organics across most of Zone 6 and southward.

The only warning I'll give is that you can get exactly the same results on (cheaper) grains like soybean meal that you do with (expensive) pre-packaged organic fertilizers. My green February lawn will attest to that! For a kick, I use generic kelp extract sprayed onto the lawn for the extra boost.

fpmom
what is the coverage of the 'Organic Plant Magic' when used at the end of a garden hose sprayer.
I checked the web site, THANK YOU!!! and it only mentioned the rate of application per gallon of water.

Thanks for all of the information you've provided along with DC and Morph, I am going to give the organic fertilzation program a try...Starting this week-end with the JG 10-0-1 fertilizer and the plant majic if I can find it in my area.
there seems to be retailers in the area, hopefully they will have some.

I will admit that the organic plant magic is not easy to apply (lol!!)
I purchased a sprayer from the garden store that has the dials on top (set it to 1 oz and use until it runs out) or you can use the attachment that 'miracle grow' sells (obviously take out the miracle grow) - can get at home depot etc
So what I do and was recommended to me is to blend some Neptune harvest seaweed fertilizer (or the turf formula) with half a bag of the plant magic (the plant magic is a very fine powder) so that you have a liquid type substance in the sprayer…set to 1 oz and then spray lawn - it constantly gets clogged etc so this is 'normal' (give it a shake to unblock)… I laid 4000 sq ft of lawn so I do 2 lots of this method (i.e. half the lawn area at a time)since what I just described will cover 2500 sq ft at a time… btw I do this when overseeding as well as putting down the 'magical'… the plant magic is amazing and you will see a difference very quickly (for organics that is)
I'm not too sure that I am going to use a synthetic as a winterizer…I didn't last winter and when we had that 'warm' weather in jan when the snow melted my lawn was the only green one around…I'm a newbie and still learning but have had success with these products - they do help build up the soil microbes etc and strengthen the root system over winter
PS I'm also going to try the plant magic on my shrubs to help them get through this winter

>>I'm not too sure that I am going to use a synthetic as a winterizer…I didn't last winter and when we had that 'warm' weather in jan when the snow melted my lawn was the only green one around

If you're worried about damaging the soil biology, don't. One shot per year of a synthetic at a few pounds per thousand square feet isn't going to do that.

In fact, your soil biology will gobble up the nitrogen as well. It's in direct competition with the grass, and often wins. Fortunately, it's slow at that point so the grass has a good shot at the nitrogen.

Synthetics are most effective on soils with healthy bacterial and fungal levels...and don't let the word "synthetic" scare you. Urea is a technical synthetic, but chemically identical to naturally-produced urea. Your synthetic may not be chemically distinguishable from an organic.

Sometimes it is. Ammonium sulfate or ammonium nitrite (among many others) are salts, but at low enough concentrations on your lawn that there won't be any problems.

While winterization is very important, it's less important if you fed your lawn very well during the season. In my case, I do. I put it down as insurance and very little more, although the colors do tend to intensify after application.

morpheusa thanks for the explanation - well without intending to I put down the high nitrogen synthetic winterizer yesterday (I know a bit early but we have cold temps coming next week and are expecting a lot of rain today so I was keen to use the rain to get it in to the ground given we have not had reliable rain this Fall)… my husband said he had bought an 'organic' winterizer so I didn't really look at the label too closely - anyway turned out to be 'Lesco winterizer' (any thoughts on this brand?) - I think I put down the right amount (approx a third of a 30 pound bag for approx 4000 sq ft)… so there you go my first try of a synthetic winterizer! BTW could I put down another lot later just before freezing temps i.e. end Nov/early Dec? Have you ever used crab shell on the lawn before?

morpheusa thanks for the explanation - well without intending to I put down the high nitrogen synthetic winterizer yesterday (I know a bit early but we have cold temps coming next week and are expecting a lot of rain today so I was keen to use the rain to get it in to the ground given we have not had reliable rain this Fall)… my husband said he had bought an 'organic' winterizer so I didn't really look at the label too closely - anyway turned out to be 'Lesco winterizer' (any thoughts on this brand?) - I think I put down the right amount (approx a third of a 30 pound bag for approx 4000 sq ft)… so there you go my first try of a synthetic winterizer! BTW could I put down another lot later just before freezing temps i.e. end Nov/early Dec? Have you ever used crab shell on the lawn before?

>>well without intending to I put down the high nitrogen synthetic winterizer yesterday (I know a bit early but we have cold temps coming next week and are expecting a lot of rain today so I was keen to use the rain to get it in to the ground given we have not had reliable rain this Fall)

Oops! Sort of. I mean, as oopses go, it's not really that much of an oops.

Top growth even here in Zone 7A has slowed; I haven't mowed in two weeks to encourage root growth, and the lawn isn't shaggy. It's a bit long, and I have a touch of rust breaking out here and there, but not shaggy.

If I applied nitrogen now (I could), a good percentage would go to root growth and storage. It's not the advantage that winterizing is, but it helps.

Assuming you got the just over an inch of rain we did yesterday and last night, that got watered in perfectly.

>>anyway turned out to be 'Lesco winterizer' (any thoughts on this brand?) - I think I put down the right amount (approx a third of a 30 pound bag for approx 4000 sq ft)

I like Lesco, it's good stuff. It's on par with Vigoro and every other major brand (Lesco is, itself, a major brand as well).

>>BTW could I put down another lot later just before freezing temps i.e. end Nov/early Dec?

Yes, as long as complete growth stoppage is at least a month from today's date, you can apply again. So post November 15, you're absolutely fine to reapply winterizer.

>>Have you ever used crab shell on the lawn before?

No, but mostly because as a calcium source it's extremely slow and requires weathering, nitrogen amounts are low, and chitin is not particularly helpful to the soil. Over-use can send your pH too high over time, and given the low availability, it's going to stay high for quite a while.

I know they advertise the stuff as helping to fight nematodes and grubs via encouraging chitin-eating bacteria, but in practice it's not effective that I've ever seen. Fungal cells also use chitin, and their deaths will inject far more than you could by feeding. Not to mention micro-arthropods getting old (or hunted) and dying.

All things considered, in a choice between crab shell and a bag of good old soybean meal, I'd take the soybean meal. It's cheaper and does more to transform your soil.

Thanks Morpheuspa

The fertilizer I used was 18-0-18 so do you think 10 pounds for 4000 sq ft was the correct amount? With our lack of rain recently I was really keen to use the inch we are supposed to get…I watered it in immediately after applying and we got rain overnight but most of it should be hitting in a couple of hours

I will put another lot down just before thanksgiving or end Nov

I'm going to try the soybean meal and cornmeal next Spring - what does it specifically do and what am I replacing by using it? (The cornmeal is good to help prevent fungus right?) We have a few farms close by in South Natick so I think I should be able to get some close by

Fairy rings? Take a picture with you. I'd go to the local agricultural center for advice if it were me. They have a horticulturist on staff.

Oh one more question: do you know anything about 'putting sugar on yellow patches of grass' made by dogs urine…my dogs have been hard to train away from one patch which is driving me crazy - I read that applying sugar on the yellow patch gets the grass growing there again

>>The fertilizer I used was 18-0-18 so do you think 10 pounds for 4000 sq ft was the correct amount?

10 pounds per 4K is 2.5 pounds per thousand. That's 0.45 pounds of nitrogen (and potassium, but that doesn't matter so much).

It's on the low side. 5.5 pounds per thousand square feet, or 20-22 pounds on 4K, would be the amount to target 1 pound of nitrogen per thousand.

For a feeding in the lull period, though, 0.45 pounds of N is fine. The grass isn't particularly demanding in mid to late October.

When you winterize, plan to target 5 to 6 pounds per thousand square feet, though. That feeding goes directly into carbohydrate storage after processing.

One thing. Potassium's pretty harmless, but there's no need to pay for it or use it if your potassium levels are good. If you're not sure, or if your soil test shows a good K level, purchase nitrogen fertilizers that have numbers like 29-0-5. They tend to be cheaper per pound and don't add things your soil doesn't require.

However, even potassium overapplication isn't much of an issue until it gets extreme. A pound or two of potassium per thousand square feet per year isn't extreme.

>>I'm going to try the soybean meal and cornmeal next Spring - what does it specifically do and what am I replacing by using it? (The cornmeal is good to help prevent fungus right?)

Each organic has its advantages and disadvantages!

Corn meal or cracked corn (I like cracked as it flows more easily, but my local grain mill's idea of corn meal is powder-fine) are a poor feeding of the lawn at 1.65-0.65-0.40, but help with fungal resistance for the season. Corn can be applied in fantastically high amounts as a soil conditioner without doing damage and without generating nearly as much stink as other things will (due to the low nitrogen levels).

Corn was my go-to when I was adding organic material to the lawn. At the time, it was very cheap, and I regularly dropped 60 pounds per thousand.

Soy is a fantastic feed at 7-2-1, but at the amounts used it's not as good a soil conditioner (it works as well, by weight, as corn, but you use a lot less weight). Application of 15 pounds per thousand square feet four times yearly will feed your lawn completely with no other feedings (except winterization, which is special) required.

Soy has no other specific advantages, but since it's the heaviest hitter in terms of protein (which means nitrogen), it tends to be the primary feed used by organics people.

Soy will replace the feedings you're currently doing if applied in early to mid May, August first, September first, and October first. Your late summer and fall dates may back up a little bit from mine as your climate is a bit colder.

Southerners use cottonseed meal instead of soybean meal. Same difference.

Alfalfa might be nice once per year in mid September at 10 pounds per thousand. If you wish. It contains growth hormones that will encourage the root density of the lawn to increase. Don't overdo alfalfa as too much in the way of growth hormones actually stops growth.

Milorganite is a nice fill-in if your lawn's color is paler than you like. It has good nitrogen levels, some phosphorus, and at 4%, a ton of iron (iron is a minor element and not used in large amounts). Constant use can raise iron levels in the soil and even out the color so it's always the darkest green it can be for the season, weather, and watering levels.

Most other things that you can get, like oat hulls, rice hulls, brewer's grains, and so on are comparable to corn in terms of nitrogen and good as soil conditioners if you can get them cheap.

Used coffee grounds. These are comparable to corn, although they're exceptionally attractive to worms. Their advantage is that most Starbucks' and many other coffee shops save their spent, pressed grounds for people who want to use them in composting or soil conditioning. Call around and you can sometimes get loads of these for free.

Compost is great, and a wonderful soil conditioner, but essentially does nothing to feed the lawn. Worms like it, and it also puts back bacterial and fungal species that have been wiped out by chemical use or flooding. It's not on my recommended list due to the weight, cost, and the fact that you can do all of this with other stuff--but there's an exception to that rule, which doesn't apply here.

>>Oh one more question: do you know anything about 'putting sugar on yellow patches of grass' made by dogs urine…my dogs have been hard to train away from one patch which is driving me crazy - I read that applying sugar on the yellow patch gets the grass growing there again

It works! Water it in to keep animals off the spot if you want, or apply just before a rainfall.

The sugar causes a bacterial population explosion (it's both a carbon source and a huge energy source). Those bacteria use nitrogen at 1 unit of weight to every 9 units of carbon in their structure, which is a very high ratio. To get that, they absorb the nitrogen from the dog pee.

Over time, the bacteria die and release the nitrogen back (or form associations with the grass roots and trade off for sugars from them), but the re-release is slow enough that it won't burn the lawn.

You'll find that as you go fully organic for a while and transform the soil, you simply don't get much in the way of dog spots any longer unless the soil is extremely dry. Bacterial populations are naturally high enough to absorb the excess N and buffer it, releasing it back into the lawn slowly enough that it doesn't cause any burning.

I have a variable number of dogs (I tend to take care of everybody's as they go home calm and happy). We have two. Numbers have ranged up to six (that was a zoo). Dog burn spots--none, although I did get one temporarily in August when the rain stopped. It reversed in September.

Thanks morpheuspa
I thought it might have been a little low but I haven't used synthetic fertilizers before so didn't want to over-apply….I have roughly 20 pounds left in the bag so if I apply that end Nov that should be the correct amount for 4000 sq ft then? btw the lawn is amazingly green today - can't stop looking at it!
Thanks for the other advice - I am going to try the soybean meal etc come Spring…I did put down a bag of milorganite over summer (had a bag left over from the previous season) and I really like how dark green it makes the lawn so I think that's my go to for summer and to green up in between other stuff…
PS I ran out and put down some more sugar (put a little bit down a few days ago) just before all the rain hit this afternoon…hope I see some results soon!

fpmom,
Could you please tell me where you bought JG's Love Your Soil, Love Your Lawn?
I live in Holden and the local hardware store carries the JG feritilzers, but not the LYSThanks

The Mahoneys stores carry them - Wayland might be your closest? But look them up…Russells also carry it (just down the road in Wayland from Mahoneys) but their supplies looked quite depleted when I was there last a week or so ago…I suggest calling ahead…you can also try amazon but just compare prices - sometimes I get cheaper JG stuff on there but at other times the prices are hiked right up…Mahoneys are usually less expensive than Russells
PS I put 2 bags of 'love your lawn' down with the 'magical' and fertilizer just before the rain and my lawn is an amazing green!

fpmom,
Living in Massaschusetts; what is the latest you think I can apply the JG fertilizer and love your soil, love your lawn.
it was 32F at my house this morning!
I am trying to get someone to dethatch my lawn and haven't had much luck getting anyone out to do it right away.
I was wondering if i could do it now without having the lawn dethatched or should i wait unitl spring?
What do you think?

Claga sorry I just got your post when I was checking my unread emails… how did you go with putting the products down? I put down some 'love your soil' a couple of weeks back when we had that 'warmer' patch of weather since I thought that the soil was still warm and it would help…
BTW Morpheuspa I need some advice if you can help?
As you know I put down some chemical fertilizer mid October… I last cut the grass a couple of weeks ago and not since I've been really sick last week or so - it seems to have grown since then (I cut it at 2.75 inches because that's the highest on my new lawnmower - didn't realize when I bought it that it was the highest setting)… I'ts prob just over 3 inches…maybe 3.25 inches
Should I give it one last cut? The temps here are just now starting to get freezing overnight so I don't want to damage the lawn by cutting it and then making it more vulnerable (but I read that there is a chance of snow mold if you don't cut short for winter???)…and should I put down the last fertilizer now even though we are getting freezing temps? Help lol!!!