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duk748

thin grass areas around tree

duk748
15 years ago

hello & i hope all is well w/ everyone - i have been following the advice given here for the past couple of years & it has made me more informed about my lawn & also has driven me onto the organic program - the results have been just great - i have a small question - i have a large maple in the center of my front lawn & for some reason this spring/summer and now fall even after overseeding this area & giving it more then enough water the lawn under & around the immediate area of the tree is still very thin yet the rest of my lawn is very thick & green - any suggestions??

it was great at the begining of spring but as the seasons went on it thinned out - sorry for the long post - any help would be appreciated - thank you in advance

Comments (18)

  • andy10917
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are not alone. I have had so little luck with growing quality grass under Maples that I am now actively working to put river rock under my Maples (the largest one of mine is over 100 years old).

    While I love the trees, they provide a wicked combination of challenges. The deep shade they provide is tough, but the fact that they are so shallow-rooted means that even a well-watered area can be bone-dry in a few hours. Trying to keep the soil moist leads eventually to compacting, but the roots prevent easy aeration. Also, Sugar Maples are known to have allelopathic properties (they give off chemicals that hurt or kill other nearby plants).

    I'm sure you'll get people telling you to have an arborist thin out the Maple. I challenge anyone to find an experienced arborist that tells you that a 75 ft mature Maple can be thinned/pruned to actually get any amount of real sunlight to the ground and still look like a Maple. Every arborist that I have ever spoken to said that if you thin it enough to get some light through, you will either damage it or trigger a growth reaction that will fill it back in - sometimes in a single year.

    Love you lawn and your Maple - just don't try to have them share the same space.

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been battling the same problem for the past couple of years, not with sugar maples, but with Norway maples, which by reputation are much worse for surrounding lawns. Very shallow roots radiate out at least 40 feet from each tree, and had killed most of the surrounding grass (though before I moved in here, the lawn was not well-maintained).

    I've been making good progress, with a regimen I came up with on my own, but it's a lot of work, takes time, and costs extra money. Are you sure you want to try making grass grow near that tree? Is the tree definitely worth keeping? What type of Maple? How big is the crown and the trunk?

  • andy10917
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dave:

    Not to steal from DUK748's original questions, but I didn't mean to imply my Maples were Sugar Maples (I just didn't know what kind he had and didn't want to paint all Maples with the Allelopathic brush).

    My Maples are Norways, and I'd sure like to hear any regimen that helps. There is no way that I'd hurt my Maples, but I'd be willing to spend and/or work to get grass up as close as 15 ft from the trunk.

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Andy. How large are the trees, in height and in girth?

    And are there any other trees or sources of shade nearby?

    And to DUK--same questions, if you want me to give my spiel on your trees as well.

    The size and surrounding trees make a difference.

    Also, I can't guarantee anything. I can just tell you what seems to work (so far) for me.

    BTW--every arborist I asked about these trees years ago told me not to waste time on them, but just to cut them down, though they are very neat to look at, and the neighbors love them.

  • billhill
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The area around your maple is definitely and will always be a problem area in your lawn. You are on the right track with your organic feedings. All problem areas in your lawn should receive annual topdressing with compost. Mulch mow as many autumn leaves into this lawn without smothering. Type of grass planted in shady areas is very important. A blend of fine fescues consisting of 1/3 hard, chewings and creeping red is recommended. All trees should have a mulch ring around them extending at least half way to the drip-line. Mulch that ring heavily with fallen leaves. Turf competing with tree roots for water and nutrients will need sufficient quantities of both to be healthy. Having a fine lawn under your maple is challenging but can be accomplished. Below is a pic of my fine fescue around a sugar maple. If possible, start a compost pile and begin making your own "black gold"

    Bill Hill

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Bill. Your lawn looks great,despite all the shade.

    I suspect though that your Maple has been adequately taken care of for most or all of its later life, as evidenced by the lack of big surface roots. I don't have a photo of it, but when I moved in here a couple of years ago, the Norway Maples in my front yard had roots as thick as a human arm actually on the surface extending out about ten feet from the trunk in all directions. Norways are notorious for that, which is why no one plants them anymore. The roots are an even bigger problem than the shade. But I've been making progress.

  • billhill
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dave - Thanks for the compliment. Don't fight the roots. Visible surface roots need air for the health of the tree. Make a mulch ring extending out past the visible surface roots. It doesn't have to be a circle, An oval or kidney shape looks good. All you have to do is pile leaves very thick around the tree and let any grass growing there get smothered over the Winter months. In the Spring, keep the area mulched and plant some shade loving ground cover and some annual flowers. As far as the lawn goes, follow the advise given above. Good luck. - Bill Hill

  • duk748
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hello again & thank you for all the replies - i believe my maple is a sugar maple but i am not really sure - i will try to post pics on friday evening of both the tree size & area around the trunk - i prune this tree back every fall after all my leaves are down & i take care of it as i do all my other plants - after the pics are posted maybe that will clear up some of the unknowns - once again i thank you

  • andy10917
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dave:

    My "speciman" Maple is a Norway Maple, and is over 100 years old. It is about 4 ft in diameter, 80 ft tall and the canopy is roughly 75 ft wide. She's a monster - but she's perfect. There are surface roots as big as your arm 20 ft from the trunk. I once had an arborist just stand and look at the Norway for 5 minutes and then tell me that if there is a picture in the dictionary for Maple Tree, it should be this one. It actually touches the canopy of a Crimson King maple that is smaller (40 ft?). The border of my acre property is a mix of Maples, Oaks, Beeches, and a ton of 75 ft Fir trees on all sides. The homes in the area are all 100+ years old, and all of them are filled with enormous mature trees. It is the proverbial tree-lined canopy over a country road, but a challenge to get good KBG to grow in.

  • duk748
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hello again - please find the "offending" maple tree - please excuse the leaves on the lawn yet - i did not get home in time to mow today & will take care of that on friday - once again i thank everyone for all their help

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  • billhill
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    duk - You have a nice lawn and landscape. Regarding the tree, I think that's a silver maple. Let me guess. Summer leaves dull green top, whitish silver on the bottom side. Drops double winged seeds early spring. Drops a lot of twigs, sticks and branches. Growing turf grass under this tree will be challenging but is doable.

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Duk. Your lawn looks great to me. I see what you mean about the thinning of the grass near the tree. Based on my experience with my Maples, I'd say your problem is not with water or organicity of the soil, but with under-fertilization. The top pic looks like you have KBG--is that so? And do you know how much nitrogen it's gotten so far this year?

    Also, have you fertilized the tree? I found that my trees seemed to bother the grass less if I went out of my way to make sure they had enough water and fertilizer in their own right.

    I might also suggest you consider expanding the mulch ring around the tree at least another foot in all directions. That'll give the tree more area to take water and nutrients from, and it might not compete so much with the grass.

    Andy had asked about my approach to growing grass under my two Norway Maples. For those who don't know what it's like to have a large one of these on your property, you might wonder why I was crazy enough to do what I'm going to describe. The answer is--it's all that ever worked.

    Hi Andy. Your tree sounds very cool, though it seems there are only a few folks who'd agree with us. Generally whenever I'd mention the phrase "Norway Maple" to any arborist or anyone online, I'd hear: "Oh, they're giant weeds, get rid of them." And I almost did, until I realized how much better the front lawn looks with them there. I have two Norways, each planted about 50 years ago, each about 50 feet high and about 30 inches in diameter. They are about forty feet apart, and make a nice frame for the house when viewed from the road. My front yard is very prominent, and I wanted a nice lawn, as well as nice trees, so I tried to find someone to advise on how to make the lawn and the trees coexist, but all I ever heard was: cut them down.

    When I moved in here, the grass was in terrible shape all around these trees. I also have an acre, all landscaped, with about 10,000 SF of front lawn. The woody roots of both trees were exposed, from the trunk to at least 10 feet outward, a little further in some places. Left on my own, I came up with a plan.

    First, I walked around the perimeter of both trees and found the farthest edge of the large woody roots on all sides. At these points, I put stakes in the soil, to keep track of the roots' locations, and to be able to see them from a distance. In my mind, I called this Zone A, the zone to be well-mulched and where the lawn tractor can never go. No grass was growing here, and in truth, very few weeds. This zone extended 10-15 feet from the trunk in all directions, and was the limit to where I considered it possible to grow grass. This makes for a huge mulch bed ((700 SF each) but there's no alternative.

    Then I walked further out with a spade and felt around for the edge of the fibrous surface roots, many of which were visible right on the surface, like a thick webbing, while others I could feel just below the surface. Scant grass was growing here, but a lot of crabgrass, bentgrass, and oxalis. The outer limit of these roots was at the border of the semi-healthy grass further out. At this border, I placed a second set of stakes, and called this Zone B. By default, Zone C is everything further out.

    If your tree is like mine, Zones A and B will be huge. This is where the work and expense factor in.

    Zone C, of course, can be made to grow healthy grass. The same goes for part of Zone B, though how far into Zone B I can go still hasn't been determined. This year I made great progress. Zone A of course is "No-grass land."

    Zone A here was originally just woody roots ans bare soil, so I focused there first. I began to put all my organic waste into this Zone, and when the first Autmun came, all leaves and wood chips from the front yard went into this Zone. Otherwise, I would have had to buy 1400 SF of mulch, which would have been beyond a sane person's approach to lawn/tree care. But the leaves worked well, you just need to be sure to aerate/turn them etc.

    The only time I cut any roots was when I found a stray, small woody root beyond the first set of stakes. As you probably know, it's bad to cut any roots of a tree you want to keep, but to try to limit the size and control the shape of Zone A, I did cut a few. The trees seemed not to notice.

    Zone B still ended up huge, about fifteen feet further out in all directions than zone A, or about 60 feet in diameter. The trick then was to reclaim this with lawn, and it has been a real challenge. First I tried adding topsoil, to correct the erosion that had occurred from lack of vegetation, plus regular fertilizer and lots of water. The grass germinated, and died in the following Summer, despite being very well-watered. I could not keep the soil moist.

    So, next time around I spread a 50/5 mixture of fresh hot compost and Canadian peat throughout Zone B, and seeded again. Again, good watering and regular fertilizer, all of which made the grass grow great in Zone C, but I had poor germination in Zone B, and very little of it remained after the following Summer. I did however succeed in making the grass grow reasonably well into the outer part of Zone B.

    Next time around, I took a 33/33/33 mixture of good topsoil, fresh hot compost, and peat moss, and spread this throughout Zone B, then swept it into the bare areas. Then seeded, and got good germination and excellent growth. This was the last time I needed to seed, and since then, it's been the drudge of watering and fertilizing, but I reclaimed most of Zone B. Since then, over the past year, I've continued to spread the 3 part mixture into all bare areas, which were small, and were concentrated in the areas immediately outside Zone A. All this has lead to a raising of the grass level around the trees, and I believe this has been a major reason why the grass now grows, as the grass roots are now a couple inches above the tree roots.

    We had very little rain this past July/August, and I was watering several times per week. Even so, the grass in Zone B closest to the trees was clearly stressed, and I know it was because the fibrous roots were stealing all the water. The grass there became a bit patchy, but since the cooler weather came, it is filling in again. Had I not been attentive to watering, I bet most of the grass in Zone B would have died.

    As for the grass itself, I've been seeding with a mixture of 4 types of KBG and two types of Chewing Fescue. The trees create dense shade, but Zone A extends far enough out from the trunks that very little of the grass is shaded for more than an hour or so at a time. People refer to the shade problem as the reason grass won't grow under Maples, and I'm sure it is much of the time. But for Norways as big as your and mine, I believe shade is much less a problem than the marauding roots.

    So, at this point, I've reclaimed most of Zone B with grass, and I have no intention of letting the grass cross into Zone A, even if it survives there. To cut it would require taking the tractor in there, and bouncing over the large high roots (even though they're well-mulched).

    The trees seem to be doing much better. The windward one lost a couple of large branches when the remnants of Hurricane Ike came through a couple months ago, but both survived, when many other trees here did not. Both trees used to drop branches all over the place, and that doesn't happen anymore.

    Anyway, that's what worked for me (so far).

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Uh, that should read a "50/50" mixture of....

  • duk748
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hello again & quite frankly i am just beamming w/ delight that ou kind people have said my lawn looks great!1 - thank you so very much - i have often wondered if it would meet the high standards set by some of the more knoweldgeable people on this board - tha is why i come here for advice - also i would like to extend my thanks to billhill for identifying the maple - sorry i thought it was a sugar maple - i will keep this post & implement the suggestions here - also surprising was the info dave11 gave regarding expanding the mulch ring - i thought it was big already!! -
    i hope all is well w/ everyone & i truly appreciate the kind words & advice - p.s. it rained just as i was going home tonight to mow!! (low man again!) have a great weekend

  • andy10917
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much, Dave - that is SO much more info than I was hoping for. I'm thinking about cutting my river rock back to include only "Zone A" and make a good fight for Zone B.

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Andy--why river rock though? That would deprive the tree of the normal organicity of it's immediate surroundings. I'd worry it would make the tree more prone to steal nutrients from the surrounding lawn, and just lead to Zone A getting bigger.

  • andy10917
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    3-inch river rock is large enough to allow oxygen and water through to the soil. The area is on a pretty good slope, so mulch is not an option (and mats down anyway).

  • dave11
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why not put all your leaves there though? Rake or blow them in, then wet them and tamp them down. A thick layer should last almost a full year.

    As for the slope, actually you are already mulching--you're just mulching with rock. But it's definitely not a natural state for the tree to be in. I've tried always to mimic their natural settings, as they would be in a forest. That's the purpose of the leaf mulch, and the wide beds.