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henrygeorge_gw

help with honda gcv 160 las3a engine repair

henrygeorge
13 years ago

I think I have the cheapest Honda engine made for lawn mowers with the Sears Craftsman high rear-wheel, front variable speed self-propelled mower I bought. According to Northern Tool Supply, the engine retails $40 cheaper than the standard off-the-shelf Honda 160 GCV. It explains why I was able to get the mower for $300 after begging for additional discounts.

It is a (63/64") 25 mm shaft, n3 type crankshaft, rather than the standard 7/8" shaft, n1 type crankshaft. It seems to use a different camdrive instead of the push rods according to a commenter on the engine. This is the specific engine, just made at a different factory location...

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200390414_200390414

It has a new spark plug, new air filter, new oil (generic SAE 30). I've replaced the air filter about 5 times and the spark plug and oil about 3 times.

I have roughly 500+ hours on the engine and started to have problems with it this past week. It is about a year old. It is guzzling gas, faster than even a B&S on a Murray, gives out a small puff of black smoke about every minute of use, builds black carbon on the spark plug quickly, and starts to run at really low RPM after about a minute of use in bermuda grass that has barely grown due to lack of rain here. If I stop to the lift the front wheels, it will increase in RPM again.

I took apart the carb and checked everything, though not much to check. The float valve and pin worked great and really clean. I did have to cut a new gasket since one out of the 4 (!) tore while taking it apart. The linkage seemed weird but very easy to put it back together. The governor assembly seemed fine and even cleaned the plugs. There was a little wear (hadn't broken through the insulation yet) on the spark plug wire where the cover touches so i put electrical tape on it. The breather valve seemed fine.

My dad helps extensively. He has professional and educational training in electrical and mechanical repair, as well as self-taught in combustion engines. He seems weary about taking apart the engine to check the camshaft. I'm weary with any mechanical work, and I want to take it apart after seeing how simple the Honda carb has been.

I think I added 20 oz of oil instead of 18.5 oz though i probably spilled about 0.5-1.5 oz trying to get it in the "easy access" oil checker/filler/drainer spout without a funnel. It doesn't act like I over-filled it with oil since it isn't constantly blowing black smoke and spurting and since it started having reduced performance before I decided to change the air filter and oil again. I routinely bang the air filter on the truck to clean the dust out of the air filter. I recently put heavier weight oil (sae 20w-50 that i typically use in the truck during 95 degree weather) in the engine before I changed it last time so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it and is why i changed it back to the standard sae 30w that comes with the engine. now that i understand how the ohc engine works, i wouldn't have used 20w-50 since i'm not sure how it would effect the performance of the cambelt.

For those who are curious, I also had to replace the front wheels and wheel assemblies. It had an odd spring washer that broke, causing the gear to grind the plastic teeth on the wheel. I bought both assemblies and wheels because of wear on the bearings and tread (I have the bad habit of keeping the drive belt fully engaged while lifting the front wheels). I have a new baffle kit now held with 2 hardened steel bolts with lock nuts instead of 2 sheet metal screws that came with the mower. They were no longer holding the baffle and the baffle already had about the top inch of the baffle chopped off by the blades. The replacement part is sent with 2 regular bolts and locknuts. The skirt/striper got shredded during the first week. The washout port is a useless feature, especially after being clogged up with 500 hours of use. I cut the bagger door cord since it got tangled and broke, more intuitive to unrelease the door at the door rather than the blade brake/engine clutch handle anyway. The recoil on the starter is very slow as others have indicated after some use. The choke isn't very automatic since I have to manually move it unless i clean the dust and grime build-up on the assembly with an air compressor. However, I rarely use the choke anyway since it tends to crank first pull in 95 degree weather. The performance has been decent though I sometimes have to use the side discharge attachment in really thick conditions where the grass starts to clog up the decking rather than mulch into dust to clog up the air filter and leave everything in a coating of dust to blow off with blower.

I wish I could afford the GSV 190 Honda mower with the professional controls and Nexite decking. The Honda blades seem to be made out of harder steel, and I hear stories that the Honda mulching blades will even lift sweet gum balls out of zoysia. I normally use the Arnold premium mulching blades (gator/predator-style), adding a spacing washer for correct height, since it has best mulching performance and leaves the most even cut in Bermuda grass. However, they go dull rather quickly, with the edge starting to look like butter after about 4-5 hours of run time, especially in sandy, pine debris, and stick-ridden conditions. I can't find any better blades for it from stores around here. 22" format isn't very popular either. The star connector tore off so i can use the universal blades. Is there a blade/pulley adapter one can find to use Honda blades on the GCV, on the 25mm shaft? I hate custom OEM models. I wish everyone wouldn't add sand to their bermuda lawns. They don't need sand with all the silt and red clay so i'm not sure why people add sand to bermuda when they would be better off adding 3 lbs of nitrogen per 1k sq. ft. per year, some Ironite every 3 years, some potash, and some phosphate where it is thinned and hummus/manure if they want to overseed, and perhaps renting an aerator. Spreading sand and only 1 lb of nitrogen per 1k sq ft every year doesn't make sense.

The Sears manuals have full schematics. However, Sears rarely stock parts in their part stores and overcharges you on shipping. And most everything is non-standard and most everything comes with a high replacement part price tag. That sort of negates the store discounts for the new purchase and not having to buy a shop manual for schematics.

You can take the Honda engine apart with nothing but a 10mm socket wrench and a phillips head screwdriver. The 4 gaskets on the carb is a little strange, but the carb itself is so simple I was able to eliminate it as the problem. Honda did an excellent job building an engine with ease of repair in mind (i'd also imagine they save money on tools to assemble it so i don't understand why they cost so much). The engine does have a slight vibration to it, from day 1, but nothing like a Murray with a bent shaft welded to the broken decking.

I have been happy with the low fuel consumption of the Honda engine as well as the lack of bent shafts under part-time commercial use. It packs a good bit of torque with those 4.4 camels.

Comments (7)

  • henrygeorge
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i should add that i cleaned all the assemblies coming off the carb with a brush and air compressor.

  • henrygeorge
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shortened Version:

    During the last week my Craftsman 22" Honda GCV 160 has been running rough, burning gas twice as fast as normal, blowing a puff of black smoke every minute of use, running at low RPM under a light load, will increase back up in RPM once the load is removed, and quickly builds black carbon dust on the spark plug.

    It has a new spark plug, new air filter, and new oil (generic SAE 30). It is 1 years old and has roughly 500 hours from part-time commercial use.

    I've thoroughly cleaned and checked the carb and various exposed assemblies with an air compressor and brush. The needle valve and floater is clean and works great. The gas is clean and flows well. I also checked and cleaned the governor assembly. Everything seems to be clean and functioning properly. I haven't checked the muffler nor opened up the engine. My dad is professionally trained and educated in mechanical and electrical work and assisted with all the troubleshooting and repair work. He isn't sure what it could be though he suspects it might be the timing belt in the camshaft pulley assembly though the primary initial primary suspect was that it was running rich due to a stuck valve pin in the carb or a stuck choke assembly due to dust and grime built-up on the linkage. He is weary about taking apart the engine, since he says it would need a new gasket.

    The engine is equivalent to the S3A variant located here...

    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200390414_200390414

    I've read elsewhere in the forum that Honda doesn't even use a gasket, just silicone. Any ideas on what the problem could be and if there are any tips on breaking down the engine?

  • roadbike
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    1. I believe you said somewhere in all these messages that you overfilled the oil. Get that corrected and check the engine again.
    2. Check the breather to see if it is clogged.
    3. If the above are ok and you still have the problem I would suspect the float valve isn't closing.

  • ewalk
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Drain Your Oil and refill with Sae-30. Do not over fill . Just under the Full Mark . Install new Spark Plug . Remove your air filter for testing . Refill with Fresh Fuel with 2 ounces of concentrated fuel cleaner let fuel mix sit for 20-30 minutes . Restart your Engine let idle and run for a few minutes. Make a quick grass cutting if all goes well buy new air filter . If not float bowl removal and inspect the Inlet Needle Valve to ensure it moves freely as advised by RB .

  • henrygeorge
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i removed about 2 oz of oil to make sure it wasn't that stupid. dad didn't seem concerned about that saying it was an insignificant amount. difficult to get an accurate read on the oil level due to the stupid plastic dipstick design but it seems at the correct level. i probably should stick a screwdriver in it to get an accurate read, but like i said, it isn't over-filled oil. i know the symptoms of too much oil -- heavy black smoke and very erratic performance. this is a slight black smoke, excessive fuel consumption (rich burn, burning fuel 4 times faster than it should), slight erratic performance, and degraded rpm.

    new spark plug was installed and gapped to 0.76mm (factory gap was actually correct). removal of air filter was tested. it is a new air filter replaced 2-3 weeks ago and frequently dusted -- i also typically use a very porous 2ndary filter (similiar to the filling of a comforter) as well to keep larger stuff off the air filter. it isn't those things. i've used new gas from two different sources.

    i've thoroughly cleaned and checked the carb (needle valve was perfectly clean like brand new and functioning correctly with the floater, the bulb was perfectly clean like brand new except of course with clean gas in it), everything looks good, and really, there isn't much that could go wrong with the carb with everyday use, unless i was burning sand and sludge. i also examined and cleaned the breather and it looked in good condition. the breather was clean except for the expected oil and functioning perfectly.

    i'm really just asking for advice on what to expect for tearing down the engine, if there is anything special that i need to know.

    my dad thinks it ran hot with the choke getting stuck and not releasing fully. it is likely internal to the engine. hopefully, it is just a worn belt considering 500 hours (5-10 years of residential use) is about the life of a residential mower engine, but i may have to replace rings and hone the cylinders if it was because of the automatic choke release being used and not releasing even though the lever was fully released due to dirt build-up around the linkage for it.

    everything else was just fyi to give my review and experience with the craftsman mower and honda engine.

  • ewalk
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well I have seen a lot of mechanics say that the Carb was clean only to have to put in carb cleaner to finally get debris out of the circuits , especially with gumming from ethanol based fuels causing the needle to stick open . As for the choke , yes it would most definatly be giving the symptoms your are identifying if it is partially on . So would a obstructed air filter , which is why I said remove same for test run . Seems you have your mind made up that
    all is clean , but in my mind Black Smoke Indicates Over Rich Fuel Condition from either to little air or excessive fuel from sticking needle or hanging float or on a rare occasion very poor combustion (unburnt fuel charge) . Let us know how you make out .

  • henrygeorge
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i resolved the problem. i think it was multiple problems, with the original problem with the carb and linkage needing cleaning and slightly too much oil. after the carb and linkage cleaning and removal of oil, the original problem demanded another tune-up and thorough regular maintenance. the air filter, even though 3 weeks old and dusted after each use, needed redusting and a thorough cleaning with the air compressor. the spark plug, even though 3 weeks old and recently cleaned, needed to be replaced and recleaned after testing.

    i think the recent tune up distracted me from the fact it needed another one and the thorough cleaning during the carb cleaning distracted me from the fact it needed another regular thorough cleaning after testing the carb cleaning. if you're confused by when i did what, so am i. i feel like i'm chasing my tail.

    i should have done a complete tune up (new air filter, new plug, new oil) at the same time i did the carb cleaning, without intermediate testing.