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Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

Posted by oldlawnmowerman81 Milwaukie (Oak Grove (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 1, 09 at 0:41

Hi,

While I know many lawn mowers have the cutting blade connected direct to the engine's crankshaft, several others may not have the blade mounted direct on the shaft, but rather on a spindle or a pulley.

The Toro 23267 25" commercial mower with its 6 hp Tecumseh engine may be an example of a mower whose blade isn't mounted directly on the crankshaft, because the engine turns 3,200 rpm, which coupled with the 25" blade length gives out a blade tip speed of 20,944 fpm (nearly 2,000 fpm above the government-mandated maximum that is 19,000 fpm), until you figure out some math which would have the spindle traveling at no more than around 90% of the engine's speed to bring the blade tip speed on this unit below the CPSC maximum of 19,000 fpm.

So while the engine may be running 3,200 rpm, the spindle diameter and other underdeck mechanicals on this mower would be designed thus that the blade will travel at 91% or less of the engine's speed to stay within the limit.

This issue also baffles me in regards to certain mowers produced in the 1960s, when the ANSI (then the USASI) had then imposed a 21,000-fpm max limit.

Some engines have a 4,000 rpm governed speed, which was the case on some Allis-Chalmers mowers (among other manufacturers); this speed was OK on the WB1930 19" cut model (19,897 fpm, which back then was below the maximum; after August 1, 1968, however, the engine speed on mowers with this blade length had to be less than 3,820 rpm), but it becomes a problem on both the WB2235 and WB2235S models, where coupled with the 22" blade length, the blade tip speed is 23,038 fpm (2,000 over limit) unless these two particular mowers have spindles that are designed to travel at no more than 91% of the engine's speed.

Sources: Briggs & Stratton Engines and Short Blocks for Replacement of Allis-Chalmers Original Equipment Engines, form MS-5741-48 (May 1, 1968).

~Ben


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

Don't forget: The engine is also used to move the tractor, as well as turn the blades on the deck. Notice that the tractor main drive pulley on the "stacked pulley" is smaller than the deck drive pulley below it.
If you think the deck blades are revolving too fast--then go out and buy a different stacked pulley that has a smaller deck drive pulley,(Approx. $75 new) and experiment with shorter belts, until you find one that fits, and you will have lowered the blade tip speed! I am quite sure that you will be able to find the pulley you need to fit your application, as i have several here in my "used stack pulley" department!
That way, you won't need to tell us "uneducated in college" folks all that stuff abot blade tip speed, and stuff like that! :o)
And, who cares? As long as the blades send the cut stuff out from the underside of the deck and out the opening, thats what they are designed to do!
If you are a lawyer looking for some Company to sue, well, keep looking! Please leave us out of it! We're here to help folks who might not have the mechanical "smarts" to fix their machines, not to worry about "tip speeds", nor who to sue about it!
by: Rusty Jones


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

What a government agency considers safe and what is actually safe in the real world can very well be two different things. 2000 FPM over the maximum sounds like a BIG number. Divide that by 60 and it's a whopping 33 feet per second. Kids shoot paintballs at each other at point-blank range at 300 FPS. Sure, projectiles can be, and are, dangerous. Just use some common sense and don't sweat the small stuff.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

  • Posted by ericwi Dane County WI (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 1, 09 at 19:01

Our Yardman, with a 22 inch blade, has a 6 hp engine, which looks like overkill, for the size of the mower. But, the engine is air-vane governed, & sounds like it runs at about 3000 rpm. The mower occasionally stalls in thick grass. Since I can't open the throttle, and crank up the rpms, the seemingly oversize engine is actually about right, for the application.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

'seemingly oversized' engines began to be required when mulching started to get popular, then a 'horsepower race' ensued, finally (hopefully) topping out at around 7HP. Your 22" mower can legally run up to 3300 RPM, so I would tach it and set it there.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

rustyj14, You beat everything...What's up with the attack on a guy that's been a registered user for a year and a half. Sounds to me like he was trying to strike up a conversation about blade tip speed. Sorry you can't comprehend it. That's no reason to bring up "uneducated in college" stuff. That's so lame. Speak for yourself. I saw nothing in his post that indicates a possible lawsuit. Don't worry they wouldn't subpoena you anyway. Blade tip speed is a hot topic among ZTR owners and pro mower guys because it affects how fast they can mow. I found his points interesting and informative. By the way blade tip speed is calculated by finding the circumference of the blade tip circle in feet and multiplying that by the engine rpm. (Circumference is the diameter of the blade multiplied by pi.--Pi is figured by the average number of pieces of chocolate pie a typical guy can eat. That's 3.1415927.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

The easier formula is:
BTS = Engine RPM X Blade length X 0.262

Thus my 21 inch R7070 running at 3300 Rpm is

3300 x 21 x 0.262 = 18156.6 feet per minute blade tip speed.

PS. I typed this really slow so some people could follow along.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

Every mower dealer I talk to complains that mowers are supplied by the manufacturers with the engine speed set at least 400 rpm too slow to mow properly, and a lot slower than they used to be. The blades are the same length as they were when the engines were set to run faster. So I'm guessing that safety issues are less of a problem now than cutting issues.

On machines where the blades are belt driven (ride-ons) I've noticed large variations in blade rpm. Which seems to imply that certain manufacturers are leaving themselves a large margin for error.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

"On machines where the blades are belt driven (ride-ons) I've noticed large variations in blade rpm. Which seems to imply that certain manufacturers are leaving themselves a large margin for error."

Blade RPM is meaningless unless you know the length of the blade. An OEM running 2 blades to get the same deck width compared to one using 3 blades must run at a much lower RPM to remain within safety regulations. Don't get RPM and linear speed at the blade tip confused.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

I was comparing like with like. I'm not so ignorant as to confuse 2 blades with 3. What I'm saying is that a lot of machines appear to be designed with blade tip speed considerably lower than is strictly necessary to comply with safety legislation. I draw this conclusion because machines with the same length of blades and a considerably higher blade rpm are sold legally.


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RE: Blade Tip Speed - Some Thoughts

EGAD!! My mind is boggled! (But, i do remember what PI is, but it took the preceding message to jog my memory.)
But, even after all of the highly educated letters about blade tip speed, I'm just going to mow with anything i have here! Tip speed bedanged! Dang the torpedoes--full speed ahead! Up (or down) with the throttles--I'm going mowing!


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