Hello Nick, I laboured long over a reply, pressed the preview button and got this nanny state message
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And all i had done was use a word that started with B and ended with T . Not going to type it all again, Going back to bed.

Nick,

I knew an Australian (40 yrs ago) who by virtue of her graduation from "high school", was immediately credited with one year of college credit at the Univ of Maryland.

I knew someone from Thailand (40 yrs ago) who by virtue of his graduation from their equivalent of "high school", was granted TWO years of college credits at the Univ of Maryland!

I don't think that anything has changed much......

--Stitz--

Nick that's a thoughtful post. I agree absolutely that pampering and patting kids on their backs for mediocre achievements is a particularly insidious problem in the North American system. In my mind, it spawns from the phenomenon of emphasizing individuality...the 'everyone is special' type treatment. To put it harshly, at the extreme this behavior breeds an inflated sense of self worth that isn't grounded in any tangible talent. I've observed that this is a definite negative trait that bleeds into other undesirable personality traits (lack of humility, lack of perspective, poor losers etc...)

But when it comes to the education system, I think it's a tricky area. Education is not just about academic growth but mental and social growth, right? What happens if a kid is a late bloomer? I wasn't particularly good at math when I was in elementary school or middle school. I remember so clearly that in 5th grade, our math class was divided into three groups based upon intelligence: the Septendecillions, the Trapazoids and the Duodecahedrons, in increasing intelligence. I remember being put into the Septendecillions (the dumbest group) because I had performed poorly on the first math test, and I felt terrible. The other two groups would make fun of us (we were the only group with a name that wasn't a shape), and worst of all, we were stuck in the same group for the rest of the year.

I somehow 'got it' in high school, ended up getting one of the highest ranks in math for my class, and I even took second and third year math courses in University. I'm now completing my masters degree and I'll be going to medical school in September - I sure am glad those 5th grade groupings lasted only one year!

It's a slippery slope - you're assuming that intelligence is somehow innate, or at least the full capacity of a child manifests at an early stage where 'sorting' can be done. But really, how well developed is a child's work ethic and self motivation at the age of 8? Poor teachers vs good teachers, differences in learning habits are also factors. And really, is doing well on exams sufficient in being a good doctor?

In my opinion, high school is probably a good stage at which some sort of sorting can happen, because kids have had a chance to figure out whether they are academically minded or not. Options for more talented students should be available should they have the capacity or drive to take them, but it should be about opening more doors to the capable, rather than closing doors for those who might not be capable(yet). One conceivable solution is to make the whole curriculum more difficult from day 1. You are right; our high school graduates lag far behind high school graduates in other countries. The difference between students from places like China and Korea are astounding.

In North America, everyone is special and kids should be allowed to be kids. It's a different culture compared to other places...in Asia, kids take rigorous examinations and are brutally ranked publicly against their classmates. Academically they are superior but they are lacking in creativity and innovation. They also have higher suicide rates...trade-off?

Nick,

When I went to school in Indiana in the 60's and 70's we did have a type of 'classing'.

When in 6th grade you took a series of aptitude tests, based upon the results of those tests you were assigned into one of 10 sections of 7th grade. Your section stayed together all of the time, thus making it possible to teach to a common level based on just 20 or so similar kids. If the teacher thought that you were too high or low for the current section, there was an opportunity to move up or down depending on need. This continued until 8th grade, I spent most of my 7th and 8th grade classes with the same 20 or so people. There was always a little snickering and fun poking between the different sections, but that builds character. Gym wasn't sectioned and there is where the 'score' was evened at times ;-).

When moving on to high school (grades 9-12) you chose a 'path'. I took the college prepatory 'path', but there were other paths also. Auto mechanics was taught at our high school, I think there was something along the lines of future homemakers, future farmers, etc...

Well, that was done away with in the 80's and now everyone is treated the same. The very bright aren't pushed and the very slow get left behind.

I liked the old way better where people of similar interests and intelligence were taught as a group and you were always being 'pushed' to learn new things.

I agree that we've turned into a bunch of "panty wastes" as far as accepting that our kid may not be as bright or smart as 'Johnny'.

Bob

Bob I graduated high school in IN in '61 - yes I am that old :>)

We were all lumped into the same classes through the 8th grade but did get the guidance of a counselor when we entered high school. College Prep was one of the areas of high school studies but you could also include a couple of other courses from different classes. I could double up on some of the business courses to go with college prep.

As a very practical person I knew I wouldn't starve if I could type, take shorthand and understood the basics of accounting so I opted out of required study halls.

Remember when you walked the hall during class time and you could hear a pin drop? Remember when you needed a hall pass to be in the hall during class? Remember when you couldn't go to class after an absence without a written excuse from your parent - and the school kept your parents signature on file? Remember when you got in trouble at school and the teacher could paddle you? And when you got home your parents paddled you for misbehaving? Remember when the teacher was always right and your parents believed them and not you?

Brooke

Brooke,

Remember when you could actually fail and be held back to take the same grade again!!!! Imagine that today :-(

Yes I do remember and miss those days.

Bob

Bob in the 6th grade I sat next to Everett - he doodled all day or helped the teacher pass out papers, erase the blackboard and even took tests. He always spelled his name right on his paper.

Everett didn't come back to school after Christmas break because he had turned 16 and could drop out of school. He made a respectful living being a good mechanic at a local car dealer.

The teachers had no problems holding kids back a grade or like Everett, several grades.

Brooke