As you wrote, Bob, the law is the law. DEPORT!!

Obama's aunt? This is the first time that I've heard of this one. C'mon, Bob! E-X-P-A-N-D on this story, please?

What's her name? Immigration status??

--Stitz--

uh-oh....I hope that I haven't jeoparized my own status! My grandfather was a German immigrant!! He preceded WWI so don't even THINK about going there!!!

Here you go --Stitz--

Bob

Here is a link that might be useful: Obama's Aunt

President Bush stopped the second deportation order just prior to leaving office.

Aunt Zeituni lives in Boston in subsidized housing, has had multiple medical problems plus a hip replacement, all paid for by someone's tax dollars.

In 2006 Aunt Zeituni attended the Senate ceremony to watch her nephew sworn in as a new Senator.

A nephew who is a multi-millionaire and an Aunt on the public dole - amazing. Bill Clinton's niece is on food stamps - more amazing.

Bob illegal is illegal or it used to be.

Brooke

The threads here are like being at my mother in-laws, Friday lunch times. She is a Nazi. She thinks i am a communist and has told everyone on her side of the family that i am. Anyway, i sit there, under pain of death from the Dragon woman if i say anything.

Here favourite subject is the boat people. She goes on and on about them.

I feel like saying.... "well Joyce, what would you do? Machine gun them?

But there is a wonderful irony about all this.

We would not be sitting in that room at all if it wasn't for some boat people.
An American guy, set off ages ago. sailed to Chile, picked up his bride, aged 15. (Spanish/Chilean ancestry) and set sail for Australia. Their daughter was her beloved husband's grandmother.

The biggest problem is that illegal immigrants manage to put down roots, because now, a family has to be torn up.

I do find it a little disturbing reading some of the comments above - some of you almost sound gleeful, proud, or excited that this situation has arisen.. It's like: "Awesome! this little girl gets to lose her mom, and here's a chance to get in another kick to the Obama administration!" It's camaraderie built upon someone's tragic and unfortunate situation. That's a little cold.

I just read a little on the Obama aunt story. Apparently she happens to be paralyzed as well...maybe she's allowed to stay because she can serve as juicy fodder against the Obama administration...maybe she's actually being kept here secretly on purpose by the opposition! Just KIDDING...seriously, I don't even live in your country..not sure why I'm getting riled up and taking low blows! Apologies.

It's interesting to observe how political divisiveness can manifest, driving extremism as a defense mechanism. I wonder how quick people would be to scream 'deport deport!' if the political situation in the US was different and less bipartisan. If times were different, I wonder how people would respond to the idea of taking a mom away from a little girl, or sending a crippled old woman back to Africa.

I guess it's easy for me to be a kumbaya-singing liberal when it comes to this issue - we don't have a huge onslaught of illegal immigrants coming in. Yeah I agree that she probably should be deported...I also feel kinda sad about that, don't you?

Ultimately, if she hadn't managed to get through in the first place, this whole unfortunate situation wouldn't need to unfold.

"I loved President Bush," Onyango [Obama's aunt] said while moving toward a framed photo of Bush and his wife standing with Barack and Michelle Obama at the White House on inauguration day. "He is my No. 1 man in my life because he helped me when I really needed that help."

Thank you, Bob, for your link! I never would have known what a compassionate man that W. was while President. All that I ever read was that he was SOB#2 (behind SOB #1, of course, Dick Cheney!).

Calvin, I ass-u-me that when you wrote "or sending a crippled old woman back to Africa" you weren't referring to Oyango. She is a young 57 y/o. I hate to think what you might write about me if you only knew about.....

--Stitz--

Calvin: What if she would have outed her mother as a heroin dealer, should we just ignore that also? We're talking principles here. (The law is the law!)

What I think is being missed here is what America was founded on...

IMO, it was founded on being able to come or be here already, work hard and do better for yourself. Again I state, "work hard" and do better for yourself.

It wasn't founded on sneaking across a border and letting those working hard make things better for you. Our economy isn't built to handle that influx of payouts without inputs.

Until you've seen your parents work their asses off to raise their family without taking assistance and then see or hear of others taking every handout possible and not working and doing just as well or better than you, then you might might begin to understand why it is upsetting. Especially now when the current administration is trying harder than ever before to turn us into a more socialistic type of country where even more are taking handouts and not contributing to building the handout reserves.

Just my opinion Calvin, because at least for now here in the US we're still allowed to think freely about the very positive aspects of capatilism.

Bob

Calvin you live in a country basically the same size as the US with 33 million citizens. For reference California has a population of 36 million.

By your own words, you do not have a problem with illegals in your country. In Arizona there are 6 million residents - in 2009 the illegal aliens cost the citizens of Arizona over 2 billion dollars. Translate that into Canadian currency and tell me you would like your tax dollars drained from your provincial government.

Do I think Aunt Zeituni should be deported? No I expect her nephew to get her out of subsidized housing and provide for her. It also is an example of the medical care available to the "poor".

It should not have been up to Pres. Bush to keep her from being deported in '08. People in her situation can be fast-tracked if they have someone here who will be financially responsible for them.

It is interesting about apologies made on forums. When I type something, until I hit submit, it is very easy to change/reword/eliminate what I was trying to say if it appears insulting or can be misconstrued.

Brooke

For 12 years I was married to a lady from Guatemala who is now my best friend. She and her sister were legal when I met them, she also has 4 brothers who since then walked across the border and are not legal. Off the 5 sibs mentioned, 4 have married and have children. All are gainfully employed and have health and automobile insurance and have bank accounts, one has bought a house. None have ever been a burden to society.

The 4 men do the following: One is a painter who has a contractors lic and employs 2 people in his painting company. 2 are foremen in a large plumbing company making around $25 per hour. 2 are plumbers working in the same company making around $18. All started at the bottom and worked their way up to where they are today WITHOUT A VALID SSN OR CAL DRIV LIC. Here is how it works:

On arrival they are directed to the corner of Olympic and Alvarado in Down Town LA where a thriving business in phony documents exits. (Don't bother notifying the LA police department, they know all about this and choose to ignore it). For $60, you get your photo taken and 2 hours later a pretty authentic looking SS card, Cal driv lic and green card is delivered. Now they get jobs which for them was no problem. The first paycheck had deductions for taxes and Social Security etc. 3 month later the IRS sent them a letter stating that their SSN was invalid, would they kindly submit a valid SSN, in the meantime would they please use this 'Tax Identification Number (TIN) which they issued to them. The TIN has the same format as our SSN, 0000 00 000.

For 9 years now they have use their TIN to pay state and federal taxes, get tax refunds or pay additional taxes as applies. One of them was audited and had a minor adjustment. The point is that the IRS and SS know exactly who these people are, where they live and who they work for. They could easily have been apprehended, they are not hiding, and their employers could have easily been stopped from hiring them, they are also not hiding, they do it openly.

We have the most powerful army in the world, we can secure our border, if we choose to do so. We know who these people are and where they live and work, we could easily have deported them years ago, if we choose. They got their share of speeding tickets, lack of valid Cal driv lic is also no problem. They paid their fines and went to traffic school. We choose to make it so.

All of this dives home the point that these people are here because we choose to let them in and we choose to let them stay. Reagan passed immigration reform which not only gave amnesty but also had effective laws to rectify the problem with provisions for deportation and heavy fines for companies hiring them. The amnesty was accepted with open arms, the other laws were ignore as our industries were not about to give up their source of cheap labor.

WE DO NOT NEED IMMIGRATION REFORM! We have all the necessary laws on the books, all we need to do is to enforce them.

So I suggest that all the illegals here today are here by our invitation and are permitted stay at our pleasure. A lot of the screaming and yelling about them is hypocritical as we could easily rectify the situation with existing laws but elect not to do so. My suggestion is to legalize the ones that are here, (no choice there, you cannot deport 10 to 20 million people), then close the border for real and rigidly enforce existing laws.

Not all illegals are as successful as my in laws, many are a burden to society as are many of our valued citizens. All you need to do is do drive through South Central LA to witness 'burden to society' by legal citizens.

Nick

Nick,

Why didn't you in-laws just come in legally? Where they trying to hide something? I don't undertstand why not do it the 'right' way unless you are trying to hide something?

Bob

If you followed my post you'd see that they are not hiding anything. They live totally above the radar screen.

It is virtually impossible to come in legally. After legal application it takes 10 to 15 years to get an answer which is usually negative. We are not talking about a British MD wishing to immigrate to America but unskilled workers from Latin America. If anyone knows exactly how that process works in real life, I'd love to hear about it.

In order to satisfy the hunger of industries for unskilled low cost workers, many immigration reform proposals include a guest worker program. This would work if the provisions are enforced and the guest workers are actually forced to leave after their tour of duty. You also hear it bantered about that they do jobs that Americans don't wish to do. Raise the minimum wage to a living wage and the line up for these jobs would be a block long.

Nick

Brooke - you're right of course...I was intentionally making a mean joke and shouldn't have. I keep forgetting how sensitive politics can become in the US. Forgive a naiive Canuck? :) Definitely no offense intended, since you have been nothing but informative and helpful in your responses.

@Brooke: People in her situation can be fast-tracked if they have someone here who will be financially responsible for them. @Brooke: In Arizona there are 6 million residents - in 2009 the illegal aliens cost the citizens of Arizona over 2 billion dollars @Bob: It wasn't founded on sneaking across a border and letting those working hard make things better for you. Our economy isn't built to handle that influx of payouts without inputs.
@Nick: All are gainfully employed and have health and automobile insurance and have bank accounts, one has bought a house. None have ever been a burden to society

Seems like there is a contradiction in terms of whether aliens are becoming contributing members, or leeches...what do the stats say?

@Nick: My suggestion is to legalize the ones that are here, (no choice there, you cannot deport 10 to 20 million people), then close the border for real and rigidly enforce existing laws.

" People in her situation can be fast-tracked if they have someone here who will be financially responsible for them."

YES!

I "sponsored" two individuals, several years apart from two faraway continents. I have no regrets.

--Stitz--

Some aliens are leeches, others are contributors. Some are smart, some are dumb. Some are kind, some are mean. Just like the rest of the citizens. They are just ordinary human beings with all the usual attributes we all are familiar with.

My post really was meant to highlight the actions of the IRS not the conduct of 4 insignificant worker bees. 9 years ago the IRS and SS were notified that 4 men have joined the workforce without a valid SSN. Instead of fining the company and deporting the men, which is what the law calls for, the IRS issues them look alike numbers that they have used since then. Is there something wrong with that picture?

Please comment on the action of the IRS.

Nick

Calvin something I meant to comment on this a.m. is the bipartisan rancor is not new, it started in 2000. You were a mere child then and I assume not paying attention to your southern neighbor.

The link below will give you an idea of the problems Arizona is dealing with regarding illegal aliens - and the lack of support from the Federal government to do their job.

Nick is lucky his illegal relatives made it through Mexico without detection.

Seal the borders and we can then talk about amnesty.

Brooke

Here is a link that might be useful: our immigration problem

As they drove through Mexico, they may as well have had a sign on the bus reading 'Arizona Express'. The trip cost them $8,000. They were on a dedicated bus from Guatemala to the border of Arizona. At every village in Mexico the police stopped the bus, counted the occupants and got paid a bribe. At the end they were met by a coyote who took them into Arizona. One of the guys got caught twice and ended up walking into Arizona 3 times. No extra charge.

When apprehending a national from Guatemala, the Border Patrol take them just to the border of Mexico and send them across. They try again the next day.

It's an unbelievable system! Everyone who tries gets acxross. If caught they just have to try again. When the Border Patrol states that in a given year 750,000 illegals were apprehended that only means that that many had to try multiple times.

Everything I just described was true a few years ago when my then in laws made the trip. I don't know if anything has changed with the fence and the increased survaillance of today, I have not talked to anyone with current experience. I am sure things have improved but don't know to what degree.

Nick.

"When the Border Patrol states that in a given year 750,000 illegals were apprehended that only means that that many had to try multiple times"

And that's the upside?

Brooke

Things may be a lot different today. First of all there seems to be a genuine push to limit border crossings both by utilizing the fence and by increased surveillance. The character of the people apprehended has also changed as now there is a larger element of drug smugglers and fewer work seekers.

With the decline of construction a huge number of 'illegals' have actually gone home. The fuel that powers the system is the abundance of easily obtainable jobs in the US which pay more than similar work in Mexico (if you can get it). My in-laws retaining their jobs during this economic down turn is an anomaly. Many of their friends lost their jobs and simply went home to Guatemala. With the jobs gone there is no incentive to stay nor for new ones to come. The great numbers posted by the Border Patrol we see today may be a reflection of that rather than their increased effort or efficiency.

The easiest way to solve the entire problem is to impose heavy, painful penalties for anyone hiring an illegal. By doing this, the flow of new arrivals would trickle to nothing, they don't come because of the tacos at Taco Bell. If these penalties are applied to couples hiring an illegal nanny or gardener in addition to the entire construction, food serving industries etc, immigration reform would not be necessary. The only border crossovers would be the drug smugglers which is an entirely different matter.

As with every thing, there is a price to pay. For $35 a month Jesus Villalobos and his crew cut my grass and keep my front yard clean. If I'm not allowed to use Jesus any more, getting 'legals' to do the same would cost 3 times as much.

Nick

"Please comment on the action of the IRS."

It appears to be a conspiracy. Who has the most to gain from this conspiracy?

Who is responsible for ferreting out conspiracies?

--Stitz--

I think the conspiracy is between Big Business and the government. The law calls for a $10,000 fine for hiring an illegal. Start applying that across the board everywhewre including gardners, nannies, ag workers that don't have a work permit, construction and food industry workers etc and nothing further needs to be done. The problem will completely correct itself. Then if certain industries need more workers use the agriculture guest worker system in place already.

I still feel out of compassion and pure practcality, the people here already, especially with roots, should be allowed to stay. Apply the sanctions to anyone who cannot prove they were in the country by a certain date and you don't need a fence. There is no reason to come if you cannot work.

Nick

Hiring Jesus Villalobos and his crew are no longer an option?

"The fence" is a disgusting abomination.

--Stitz--

OK Stitz, if not a fence, how?

The abomination is our Federal government will not enforce their own laws? Why?

The abomination is having the President blatantly distort the Arizona law? Why?

The abomination is having the head of the Department of Justice, Eric Holder, state he thinks the law is unconstitutional - then admit before a Congressional committee he hadn't read the law, all ten pages of it. Why?

The abomination is having the head of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, after negative comments about Arizona also admit before a Congressional committee she hadn't read the law? Why?

The abomination is when the government agency that oversees the requests to determine the legality of someone threatens to ignore the requests. Why?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/21/official-says-feds-process-illegals-referred-arizona/

The Arizona law mirrors the Federal law so is the Federal law unconstitutional? Or is this simply a wedge to keep dividing people by the great uniter?

When will Calderone invite Pres. Obama to Mexico to tell him how to change his immigration policy to match ours.

Brooke

Here is a link that might be useful: CA Congressman speech

There is an 'Alice in Wonderland' disconnect between how some of our laws are written and how they are practiced. I had a conversation with an Los Angeles DA involved in child abuse about the statutory rape law.

As written, the legal age of consent is 18 and physicians have an obligation to report cases of conception prior to age 18 to the child abuse authorities. The first time I did that they ignored me and told me to get up to speed. They have zero interest in a 17 year old getting pregnant even though it is against the law.

Here is what I was told: If the girl is under 15 and the man is more than 5 years her senior, report, otherwise don't bother. They have no interest in investigating a couple of 14 year old getting caught because they don't know enough about birth control. Of course, if force, alcohol or drugs are involved, all bets are off. No politician has the courage to bring the law as is written (de juro) in line with the law as is practiced (de facto).

In essence, in SOCAL the legal age of consent has been 15 for many years but 18 will remain on the books forever because no politician has the courage to change it. Immigration laws are similar. The law signed by Reagan way back, simply does not suit the needs of both the American public (nannies, gardeners) and industry (low cost labor). What is practiced bears no resemblance to what is written but it would be political suicide for any politician to change the laws to reflect the actual practice. All the trashing around, the chest beating, yelling and screaming and gnashing of teeth is just for show. Politicians are fully aware of what the real problem is but studiously avoid talking about it. Addressing the real problem would have a negative impact on their next re-election bid, not to mention contributions from big business.

I don't profess to know the solution, only the problem. A 'Sunset provision' for certain laws would help. If certain laws would simply expire after a given number of years then no politician would have to commit suicide to remove them. I think they have that in place for certain things but not where it's really needed.

Nick