hello, Stitz. thanks for posting this. if you still have the plant, would you mind posting the markings on the leaves which aroused your suspicion? I find it fasinating - thanks.
sue

OUCH - sorry to hear about your findings. The differances between the blooms is astounding.

Brooke

Definitely sucks. Aside from the typical sharing water and tainted pruners, I can think of two things for you to chew on: First is that it already had it when you bought it, but its cultural condition were in good balance at the growers greenhouse so it never manifested itself until it got to your place--stress from less than perfect conditions triggered it to show up (happens occasionally for new plants just brought home. Think rootless wonders that still look in perfect condition when you buy them. Also think how HIV can result in AIDS...stress). The other would be some sort of bug/pest might have vectored it. Has it had any bugs in the past?

terpguy--IF C. Horace arrived with a "latent" infection, the stress from shipping might have triggered a full-blown infection. "Shipping stress" is a common problem with both plants and animals. Insects as a viral vector is also a reasonable possibility. I summer almost all of my orchids outdoors. In recent years, my insect control has been limited to predatory insects, detergents and alcohol -- certainly, an effective control but hardly prevention.

sue--The photo below was taken soon after arrival from Florida. Note the irregular, reddish markings. This was possibly from two causes, either strong sunlight or virus related. Virus related visual clues mimic other causes such as strong sunlight or fungal infection. It's only a symptom, not a diagnosis.

Brooke--I know that you feel my pain. Thank you for your sympathy. Yes, the differences between 2008 and 2009 are significant. What isn't apparent in my fotos is the flower sizes. They were far smaller this year.

{{gwi:140732}}

Coincidentally, my orchid society had a meeting last night with a guest speaker featuring the topic of Virus! Horace proved to be an invaluable learning tool. Horace was quickly euthanized on the drive home with an overnight temp of 8°F at 70 MPH.

--Stitz--

I'm so sorry about your infection...not just due to the loss of your beautiful plant, but also the paranoia of finding something like this in your collection. It's a terrible feeling since it's impossible to test everything.

If anyone wants more photos of viral infection in catts, here are some of one I had last summer

{{gwi:140733}}

The following are photos of plants that do NOT have virus - you can see the similarities. The only way to be sure is an ELISA test.

{{gwi:140734}}

hello, Stitz and Calvin, thanks for posting the photos. it is interesting how the flowers show the problem. another thing is how come bugs and virus don't get shipping or temperature stress?
I am sorry that you both experienced this loss.
sue

sue,

I expect that the "bugs and virus" also have stress. Is there a plant pathologist or entomologist monitoring their well-being during transit? :)

--Stitz--

Stitz,

Did you have a chance to check any of your other plants for virus? I'm curious if you might have tested any Phals. Sorry about your problem.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. I tested other plants. Cattleya trianae 'Mooreana' -- the Agdia strip was inconclusive on two occasions spaced months apart; the plant was positive for CymMV per Critter Creek Lab. I will keep it unless I see a reason to destroy it.

Phaius tankervilleae had obvious streaking in the leaves with a dramatic change in flowering last winter 2008. A large crop of spikes were initiated in autumn 2007 however few matured to flower. Those that did flower weren't even close to the past. It tested positive for CymMV. I destroyed it in 2008. Fortunately, I shared the wealth in years past while it was robust. I will be getting a healthy. virus-free (Agdia test) division back this spring!

I have only three Phals, all untested. I'm watching them carefully. Two are imported species, the other a hybrid from Fla. I was told last night that Phalaenopsis appears more susceptible to virus than some of the other genera.

I used Critter Creek to backup some of the Agdia tests. I didn't conclude that either was superior. I have a few spare Agdia strips on hand for "suspects" to use as I choose.

--Stitz--

Sorry to hear about your plant. It does show typical color break virus. The leaves as well. With both CYMV and TMV, this plant will slowly become weaker and weaker. There are virus free clones out there of C. Horace 'Maxima' but you have to look. Horace 'Maxima' is a very old clone and many are virused. However, a collection was found and the plant did test negative for virus. From these, some meristems were made.

Years ago virus and catt went together. The breeders worked very hard to get rid of it. I had a wonderful old white that fell off the bench and then the virus came out. So a virus can be in a plant and not affect it until stress. I recently tested a group of phals I'd had, of course the recent ones were all virused and so took a trash bag to the greenhouse and tried to not look at the plants that got trashed - but what I did realize was that without a doubt those plants never grew as well as they should have. I talked to several professional growers who I have bought from for years - they said stress the plant and you will be able to tell you don't have to spend $ - though I don't have the heart to do that - it is true. The reason to get rid of the diseased plant is you run the risk of others getting it. I have some expensive plants and so made the choice. I have a friend who is commercial and she had a group of wild collected plants - wild ? no virused - she trashed the lot.

Recently the Dutch growers made a stink - a lot of Catts and Phals - in fact most - come out of Taiwan - the Dutch said there is something wrong they are not growing like they should - Turns out they were and still are mostly infected, they infected them in the flask. I would avoid a plant from Taiwan - if you want it make it clear to the seller you virus test, test and if infected send it back immediately. In all fairness the Taiwan's are working very hard to get the virus out of the system, but this will take time. BE CAREFUL its sad to pitch a plant and also to have wasted your $

More precious than wasted $ is wasted time.

Pamelaw,

Thanks for sharing your virus testing results and your comments on the poor growth of these diseased plants. I had to throw out a lot of virused plants last year and spent considerable time tracking down the source of contamination. One of the more surprising findings was that most of the plants purchased from this particular vendor since 2002 had died. I have a lot of plants and I guess I didn't even notice the gradual loss of a few plants each year. By contrast, most of my other large plants had been grown from seed and had been around 10-20 years before they became infected and began growing poorly.

In this past year, I have done as you suggest and tell vendors that I test for virus and secure a guarantee that I can return any virused plants for full refund. Surprisingly, after this conversation, some refuse to sell me plants. It appears that they know their plants are infected. I also take test kits to commercial greenhouses and ask the owners if I may discreetly test plants before I purchase them. I am amazed (and so are they) at the extent of the contamination of meristemmed phals.

I am surprised that this thread has unfolded in this way. Usually the posts take the point of view that virus testing is not accurate, and that even if the plants are infected, it's not a problem because the virus is not easily transmitted to other plants, and that if the other plants are infected, it doesn't matter because they will grow and flower just fine. Maybe the period of denial has finally passed.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you for continuing this topic. Further discussion will undoubtedly benefit many of us.

Please, note that below, I included the thread that you started in March, 2008 as a link for everyone's reference. I wanted to specifically reference two items that you wrote:

March 31: "The more I think about this issue of Norman's shipping virused plants, the more upset I become. He really could be responsible for the destruction of thousands of collections. I plan on sending these results to the USDA and the California Department of Agriculture. In a way, he and his customers are all victims of careless lab work by a few Taiwanese operations, but he loses the benefit of the doubt when he continues to sell diseased plants.

April 1: Also, I had a conversation with Russ Vernon, the next IPA President, and he indicated that he would address this issue of virused meristems from Taiwan. It's hurting all of us.

Mike, do you have any follow-up on your plan to share data with the USDA and Calif Ag people?

Also, did you get any ideas from Russ Vernon as to where this is going?

Thanks,

--Stitz--

Here is a link that might be useful: Norman's Orchids

Stitz,

I have seen Russ on several occasions since, but the subject has not come up. I have assumed that this conversation would continue in other circles that I am not a part of. I did send a letter to the California Dept of Ag, but not the USDA. I did not get a response. Don't know how California money problems might impact this issue.

The virus issue in my greenhouse is now under control. I'm out a couple of thousand dollars, but all of the plants are clean. The best advice I've read in all of this is to assume everything is infected and handle the plants accordingly.

Mike

I have found virus in a few of my orchids, I have over 300 orchids and rid myself of the virused ones asap. I can't see keeping them around to spread it. In the future I will only buy from H&R and Carter & Holmes.~Charm

I am an amateur.

Is there a source that anyone could refer me to that details potential sources of viral infection (lab, greenhouse etc...)? Is the sterilizing step by autocalve not sufficient to kill bacteria and viruses?

Thanks!
Sam

Stitz - So sorry for your loss and the worries that follow. I can't cite any sources, but over the last year or so, I've gotten quite a bit of info re: "dormant" viruses are on virtually all plants, and stress activates them.

The analogy may not be valid, but it's kinda like all the germs on the door handle to the grocery store pass you right by, unless your immune system is under stress for some other reason.

Whitecat8

Reading these posts caused me to finally do what I'd been planning to for a while and begin virus testing my small collection. I have a number of older awarded Cattleya species but had never really worried about them because I never saw any strange spots or anything like that to make me suspicious. Now I've come to regard the absence of leaf spots as meaningless since I've gotten some positive results back on plants that were fairly clean looking but were very poor growers and seldom-to-never bloomers. My new procedure is to find out from a grower before I buy a plant what the grower's return policy might be in case the plant I purchase tests positive when I receive it. I've asked a few eBay sellers and gotten a satisfactory response from all but one, which won't answer my question at all. Perhaps not coincidentally, the plants I got from him last year have tested positive, however too much time had passed to mention this to him now. I'm still sending small batches of samples to Critter Creek, will continue til I get them all tested, and new ones as soon as I acquire them.
Thank for starting this thread and keeping it going, lots of good information.
sym

I have a large collection, 1,500 plants or so. Testing them all would cost several thousand dollars. No doubt a number are virused, all living things are. I don't loose much sleep over it as there is nothing you can do about it bejond the usual steps which are:

Clean instruments
Soak previously used pots in bleach before reusing
Spray for invasive insects like scale and aphids
Immediately discard plants that show virus signs.

Despite all of the above I'm sure I still harbor latent infections but have learned to live with it.

Nick

Now I've come to regard the absence of leaf spots as meaningless since I've gotten some positive results back on plants that were fairly clean looking but were very poor growers and seldom-to-never bloomers.

sym,

I'm quicker to "cull" the very poor growers and seldom-to-never bloomers in recent years. Life is too short and space is too dear to waste!

--Stitz--

Thats a good general point. But if I collected common hybrid clones it would be easier to simply cull underperformers, however a large percentage of my small collection consists of awarded species or unusual forms, and many were planned purchases for which I had to save my dimes and dollars. I tend to give them a lot of time and benefit of the doubt and trial and error when they are slow to take off, they are NOT 'easy come easy go'. But I will NOT keep a virused plant, even though it makes unhappy to get rid of it, and that's why this whole virus thing and some eBayers' attitudes toward it has me so ruffled. From asking questions I really think a few know their plants may be (or are) infected and don't care, which, if so, makes them part of the problem.

And I just realized that I might have offended you, as the beginner of this thread, Stitz, with my 'hybrid clones' comment, in regard to the Horace 'Maxima' that you had to discard due to virus, I didnt intend to belittle whatsoever, that plant is a classic and would be sickening to lose.

Thank you very much for starting this thread, helped me to pull my head out of my naivete!

Sadly, the problem with viruses that caused me to eliminate C. Horace 'Maxima' from my collection also forced me to remove Phaius tankervilleae and Phaius wallichii. The flower production of the tankervilliae was dramatically lessened. The plant was obviously not well.

The loss of P. wallichii was especially troubling. I have not seen a source of the species in the USA. I purchased mine from Alvim Seidel in Brasil.

--Stitz--

Here is a link that might be useful: Phaius tankervilleae