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lij4onok

Serious root problems, droopy/brown leaves, and white spots, help

Lij4onok
10 years ago

Hello all,

I have been reading this forum for some time to help me care for my orchids. But I finally am seriously stuck. I know I have a root problem, but every solution I have seems to affect the health of the plants in another manner.

All issues started last spring/summer when we have decided to repot all out indoor plants (which normally my mum does every 2 years or so with no problems). We have 8 and a half orchids (one is pregnant), a lot of unidentifiable plants that are next to impossible to kill and that keep insisting on having babies, 2 cacti and a palm looking plant.

The peat we repotted them all into along with one orchid that I bought then (from the same place!) was infected with something the internet told me larvae. Essentially white looking crawly things that then darkened and turned into little flies. My mums eye sight is not great and it took awhile to persuade her we had a problem. We had a similar issue about 4 years ago (I was plant sitting something that looked like it died and it infected mine) and through gradual dryness and small watering and repotting all plants returned to normal.

This time the problem was mega! We had so many flies it was horrific (mum wanted to throw all out!) My solution was to get the liquid oxygen to mix in water (as advised on ratio) and water rarely (that should give strength to orchids and kill the larvae), yellow stickers (all covered in flies!), cover soil in denim cloths (just in case that helps) and food drips (for orchids) as to give more strength to the plants. The flies are now coming down in the amount. They are still here, but just a few from time to time (5 stuck on stickers in my room in a week and I kill about 1 or 2 every day). Not as bad. And I can't see larvae in the soil. I could normally spot it crawling on the surface if it did not have enough water in soil.

I do not care how the other plants are taking it, just the orchids. The ones that are impossible to kill are still alive with a few brown leaves from time to time, mum's palm looks extremely weak (she is not too happy about what) ... but I really want the orchids to survive (especially the pregnant one - it has a keiki which scared me about a year ago when I discovered it but google helped to identify it).

I own 5 and a half and water less than the other 3 (they are mum's). All are either phalaenopsis or a hybrid of the species. I used to own a different species too (but those died in the last epidemic).

3 of mine seem to be dealing with the issue okay.

1) flowered (new stem grew out in the midst of the epidemic), has string deep green leaves (despite being the closest to the sunlight), only shrivelled roots light green (obviously from lack of water). This was potted in problematic peat. Was originally in moss.

2) and 3) okayish, sprang new stems on old ones (as these have not lost them - most of the orchid lost the stems pretty quick), leaves are deep green and a bit droopy, shrivelled roots slightly off light green. These are still with original bark chippings. I bought the plants within the year and decided not to repot.

4) pregnant. Deep green leaves, some are droopy. They are different to other orchid's not as spread out, as in thin but the same length (were like that from being gifted to me). I can't see the mother's roots, but baby seems fine, long 2 roots, and shorter 2 roots. Stem started growing but dried out at the top I cut it down just below the dry out and the tip dried out and hasn't regrown yet. Has 2 long, 3 short leaves.

5) my last orchid is horrific. It has lost all its leaves, and just recently its last stem (had originally 2). This orchid was the one bought along with peat and already infected. It was repotted then and goes through the feeders in a week (others take just under recommended month). The pot it is planted in does not properly fit in the decorative pot so water tends to drip down there (below the inner pot), and I pour it out from time to time. I wanted to get a plate instead, but mum said it should be fine (after all she has more experience in plants ... though not orchids specifically - 2 of the 3 she has are from me I think).

6) was doing okay until recently and even was getting ready to flower on a new stem (it did not have a stem for about 2 years); now the leaves are shrivelled, and browning and with white dots (I have a feeling it is rotting), the flower bulb started drying out and dripping with something.

7) leaves are small droppy and browning, no stem. Very similar to orchid 6). They are both on the landing. Until recently I was in charge of watering them and they had similar tiny amounts of water as my 5. But mum watered them last time (and she tends to give more water). Another feeling I think the pots are bigger than the roots (my mum had them for a few years and felt that when repotting came they needed space) ... hence for a few years they did not flower or have stems - concentrating on root growth. They were doing okay though, as with leaves until the epidemic. Now mum dug around the peat and cannot even find roots! Again similar to number 5), number 7) went through loads of feeders.

8) Shrivelled but still green roots. Drooping/shrivelled leaves, has started growing a small stem, but it is rather shrivelled with the buds. Might dry out.

We are planning on possibly buying some bark (not sure we want to experiment with the peat again!) for the 3 in the worst state. If the roots are still alive. My guess potsize they have went many down. We do not want to have a full repotting session yet as it is still cold/cool here and it will be risky repotting all of them.

Am I going in the right direction? What advice can people give about saving them? I specifically don't want to loose the baby! As that is new to me, and I read it needs to be repotted either when roots reach certain length/amount (check) or it flowered (it hasn't) or the stem went brown (it is deep green close to brown and has been all the time so I do not think that is the case). So I am deciding against repotting for now ... until the larvae issue is gotten rid of.

Watering? Can someone recommend the proper amount/time? I read winter should be once a month, summer once a week. So I am not down to per month. Is liquid oxygen okay? Can anyone recommend anything? Chemicals etc? preferably purchasable in the uk. I read about phyton 27 for repotting, but it is american and too expensive to get shipped to here. Should I start spraying the plants from time to time?

I know the issues are telling me I have a huge root problem (which I knew already) as the larvae eat them. But to what degree should I start worrying about droopy leaves, dried roots, or brown in case of 7), all leaves falling off. I want to get rid of larvae, but not kill the plants in total. What about the brown leaves and white spots? Is that rotting?

Please help. Any advice reassurance would be appreciated.

Lija

Comments (13)

  • jane__ny
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, it appears you have a number of problems going on. Most orchids should not be in peat. Spagham is not peat moss. Since it seems you and mum are probably over-watering, the orchids would probably do better in an orchid, bark mix.

    The flies are probably due to keeping the peat moss too wet. It would do all the plants well to repot into a well-draining mix. Something which allows water to run out quickly.

    Repotting should be done when you see new growing activity. Your orchids sound like they are very sick and to repot now would probably be the worse thing to do.

    I would suggest for the present time, try to remove at least 1/2 the peat and let the roots get more air. Orchids do not grow in the ground, they grow attached to trees and their roots are always exposed to the air.

    You should not be fertilizing now. Unless the plants are growing, they are not taking up fertilizer. Increase your light and warmth. Only water when the potting media is almost dry - stick your finger in the mix and feel it. Do not water on a schedule! Only water when dry to the touch.

    If you can carry your plants another month when days will be brighter and longer, temps will be warmer, post back and we can help you get your plants healthy.

    Jane

  • ashes_of_the_fire
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would disagree with only one aspect of what Jane said. I would put them all into bark mix immediately. They won't be able to get decent root growth going on in peat moss. You can put some sphagnum into the bark mix to help hold humidity until they get some more roots growing.

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much for your advice. This is definitely what I was fearing. Overwatering. Not sure how that occurred, the soil is extremely dry when I water mine upstairs. The only explanation with the two on the landing can be my mum admitted she was giving extra water. I suppose covering them up in denim did not help (the orchids would have a few roots poking out in the past).

    The larvae did not come from overwatering issue though, they came with the new peat. 4 of the orchids, all mums and my pregnant one have been living in peat for the past few years (at least 3). One used to flower for long periods and get the renewed stem pretty fast, and the other two I feel were planted in just too big pots so had no stems, but their leaves used to be green and healthy. Would it be a problem to change them to bark? Major changes I heard are not good for orchids.

    A few follow up questions. What is sphagnum? I also read an article about checking the roots for whether they have been damaged from underwatering or overwatering and in one case to soak them in a mixture. And something about cinnamon. Article (regarding drooping leaves):

    http://www.orchiddynasty.com/newsite_th/?page_id=1774

    Should I be using cinnamon? Then Jane mentioned about not fertilising. Is that regards the liquid oxygen? or the feeders? I was told to believe the first was used for killing bugs and the orchid would only take as much as she needed from the second. Which one or both should I stop using?

    My poor plants. I wish we had more warmth and sun ... but I live in perpetually rainy England. I should have stuck to the boring hard to kill plants.

    I have included a link to the photos I have now managed to take. We had some sun this morning. Thank you for all your help, I have not been neglecting my flowers, just trying to cure them from the root eating larvae. I hope they will survive.

    Thanks again,
    Lija

    Here is a link that might be useful: Orchid Pictures

  • ashes_of_the_fire
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dump the pots out, buy a proper orchid mix with some kind of wood chips, perlite, or charcoal or a mix of all. Rinse your roots off, cut off any that are brown, if they're green when wet, leave them.

    Wash out the pot, use soap at least, give them a dose of peroxide or a dusting of cinnamon if you're really concerned about bacteria/fungus. Put the plant back in the pot with the bark mix, not dirt or anything resembling dirt in anyway.

    I don't know what liquid oxygen is, but it's not necessary. Nor is it necessary to fertilize at all right now. Fertilizer can burn new roots.

    Attached is a picture of what one of my phals look like. Notice it's chunky, not dirt. Google sphagnum moss or Spanish moss, that what you can mix in if you want to, depends on how much you want to water, not peat. You can also see how the roots have a green tint to them, it's because they're alive.

  • meyermike_1micha
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, and more thing added that I learned from these good people here..

    When you water, don't water like you would a regular house plant..You need to mist the roots or water slowly, allowing the roots to swell..This way they will drink and not wither...
    Watering copiously like this will also prevent salt burn from fertilizers which always kill orchids..

    Mike

  • jane__ny
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    After seeing your photos, I agree with the advice given above. I would remove those plants from the pots as quickly as possible. They should be moved to bark. I don't understand why the plant roots are being covered with cloth. The roots need air. These plants grow attached to trees without any media at all. The roots must have air and water but need to dry out quickly.

    It is important to educate yourself about these plants or you will fail. They are not grown like 'dirt' plants.


    Please read the provided link.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Orchid information

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for further opinions/advice.

    ashes_of_the_fire those roots are gorgeous! For most part I tend to slightly underwater my orchids, before the ailment that is (I always thought it was fine as they flowered and looked healthy) and the roots would be slightly thinner than yours. I am especially grateful for the step by step instructions. I will definitely need them as this will be my first repotting on my own! (mum refused to help as she says last time she got involved it got them to the current state).

    I have something by Westland called 'orchid compost'. It says it has organic matter, bark and wood fibre. This is the only thing suitable at the shop nearest to us (and that is 30 minutes away). There is another shop that is about 1 hour away in another zone that requires 2 buses. But I am not sure that one is much better. I think I'll repot the worst first (I will do it tomorrow morning when there is more light and might post photos in case I need advise of whether they are actually alive)... to see how they take to this compost. And order the following online:

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elite-Orchid-Compost-Range-for-Phalaenopsis-5-Litres-/261365464855

    Does that seem like a good mix?

    Apparently one of the orchids is not actually a Phalaenopsis that mum owns (since it hasn't had flowers in years I did not know any better). Though she cannot remember its name.

    meyermike_1micha thank you for the tip ... I have been reading many websites and books about caring for orchids, but none actually go into any sort of detail. Something I read a year ago said that orchids can grow without any medium! in baskets but would require very frequent sprays. Wow! Maybe I need to do that to avoid the bugs.

    jane__ny thank you for the link! It is very helpful. As I said the books I could get from the library and some websites I came across weren't as helpful. Most of the books had various pictures and species, and talked about reproduction, illness and the fact that orchids depending on the type like various mediums including moss, bark, and something else. No one ever went into basics of how to physically water them (just state that you can spray or pour). Cloths were a strategy to get rid of insects. They have only been covered in them for about 3 months. These bugs are a pain to get rid of ... and one of the solutions is placing a layer of sand on top of the peat ... it cuts air supply to them and cuts their wings when they crawl out. I was a bit apprehensive of doing that (since who knows what the sand will be infected with!) So I saw someone's solution of placing denim to a similar effect ... break the cycle. Each fly lays many many eggs ... and the problem multiplies. Most of these I read were for houseplants ... as no one wrote about infected orchids. But the things is one of the orchids I bought was already infected and it was in bark! So it does happen. Probably not as frequently.

    I know most of the solutions I was trying were damaging the health of the plants, but as I mentioned these stuff eat roots ... and reproduce fast. So the fact that some of the orchids are still alive is pretty much a miracle. I do not wish this infection on anyone's plants.

    Oh and I place my stupidity/naivety to the fact that for many years that I have owned orchids they were healthy and I never saw what I have been seeing in the past 3/4 of the year.

    Thank you so much for your support!

    I also include the picture of the flies! (this was when the situation was improving too! before then you couldn't see the yellow ... it is a lot a lot better now). Just about 3 or 4 flies per sticker.

    Another quick question ... do I need to dry out the orchid compost completely before planting? (that is where I went wrong with the peat apparently)

    Lija

    P.S. Liquid Oxygen contains Hydrogen Peroxide. It was advised to me as it apparently burns up the larvae which seemed like a pleasant thought.

  • Leafhead
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The flies shown are Fungus Gnats and are a sign of overwatering. It depends on the orchid, but most epiphytic (tree growing) Orchids need to dry between watering.

    Some Orchids, such as Vanda types, need no media at all, just a wooden basket and daily watering.
    The Epiphytic varieties are apt to do poorly in peat and instead would do better in an orchid bark mix. Some characteristics of epiphytic orchids are pseudobulbs, that swelling below the leaf, and thick fleshy roots.

    Send a pick of your Mum's orchids. I may not be able to accurately ID it, but I can advise as to proper media and watering practices.

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One of my orchids has rebloomed. Image attached. This one wasn't too bad looking before repotting though. Note the plastic pot is a lot smaller than the outside pot.

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The mother and child. The mother when repotted only had one root, and I had only little hope it would survive. It has now two green roots coming out and a leaf!

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No change in this one. It is still in peat annoyingly. I was waiting for the flowers to drop off before repotting, and they are still there. Also the roots on this one look the healthiest out of all. Thick and plenty (the surface ones, not sure what is below the surface). I might wait for a very warm day and cut off the spike and repot it.

  • Lij4onok
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Two others have some spike growth. Including one that has two on one growing. It started growing from the next node down too!

    One last one. No improvement it looks like. We are hoping the roots look a little green on ends and there will be some growth. But essentially it looks the same as when it got repotted. The funny thing about this one is that its root system looked different to the rest. It was like a cone ... a solid block with roots coming off it. It had to be placed in slightly larger pot as this cone was hard to manoeuvre in the smaller.

  • ashes_of_the_fire
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Much better! I wouldn't worry about the flowers falling off. But I guess that I have enough that losing a few isn't a big deal if it's going to do it again next year!

    I think everyone waters differently.

    I used to fill the sink (I have a Brita filter for my tap) with tepid water and dunk them for a minute or 2, and then let them drain.

    Now I put them in the tub and spray them with the shower head. Not filtered water, but most aren't that fussy, and I let them drain in the tub.

    Some people worry about water in the crown because it can cause rot, perfectly valid reason, I pull all dead and dying leaves and sheaths off so that's less of a problem. Watering in the morning in a sunny location helps water to evaporate before it becomes problematic helps also.

    Everyone does things differently, it's just what works for you.