Did you send the suspect orchid to a lab or did you just rely on the test kit you purchased? Do it yourself test kits leave a lot to be desired regarding accuracy and even a lab will get false/positive results and need additional test material.

Brooke

You wrote that you "...tested and found 3 were virused." I appreciate that you are sharing SOME of your data. You didn't name the virus that was found. Which testing procedures were used?

What are your experiences with other vendors, please? Names? Number of tests, number of positives & negatives, which virus was found? More details, please?

Thanks,

--Stitz--

This is really a s****y deal that Orchid527 has run into. Why should we deal with vendors not taking responsibility for their product. Granted I wouldn't expect them to test each and every plant but for the cost of a little bit of prevention they wouldn't be putting customers' sometimes valuable collections at risk. Or maybe not even valuable except sentimental value. I have to say I think I will be questioning vendors from now on whether or not they stand behind plants that have come up positive. I have a very small collection compared to some and it's not worth much but I REALLY like them. I had a plant that I took to our meeting that I thought might have been virused. After being tested 3x from Agdia it came up negative all 3xs, but the 2-3 months that I kept it separated from everybody else and lamented that it might be virused while i decided to test it or just pitch it was rotten. I hated it because this plant had been my favorite. So it all turned out with a happy ending but I don't want to go through that again anytime soon. i want to protect want to protect what I have,and I do quarantine plants when I get new in. I also have clean growing practices (no dripping plants, don't splash water,use single use razor blades,etc).

I guess I just have to say it's sloppy and unprofessional if these vendors don't give a Rat's A about what kind of plants they're selling you. gb

In the orchid business there very few nurseries that stand behind their product. These are the true growers, that can control their plant from beginning to sale. Such as H&R and EEOM in Hawaii, unfortunately it is a case of buyer beware as most nurseries these days are basically just brokers who import ready to bloom plants and just finish them and sell them. I've been told by people in the know that as much as half of the phals coming over from Taiwan are likely virused. I see many phal Baldan's Kaleidoscope 'golden treasure' with blatant color break at HD/LOWE'S and know that those plants originated in Taiwan...

Botoom line is inquire about virus policy before you buy and give your business to nurseries who stand behind their product...

I am now prompted to arrange testing of selected plants in my collection. My exposure to Norman's plants is minimal however your data are sufficient to justify further investigation.

Thank you.

--Stitz--

I appreciate your going through this trouble of testing your orchids and especially getting the results out to us. I was considering doing business with Norman's within the next couple of days, but after hearing this, I will definitely reconsider. Do you know of any other reliable online vendors? Thanks a lot.

My customer service from Orchids Ltd. has been exceptional. However, I live nearby and don't know how they are w/ online folks.

They grow a fair number of their plants from seed and seem to be one of the "old time" US vendors. It might be worth asking what their policy is on any plants w/ viruses. Their prices can be higher, but if they stand behind their plants, it could be worth the extra $$.

I've got only one Phal from Norman's, thank goodness, even though I've been soooo tempted to order a bazillion times. Holding good thoughts for those of you w/ his plants.

Whitecat8

I intend to send them off an email letting them know I will never buy from them nor recommend them to anyone.

Jane

The more I think about this issue of Norman's shipping virused plants, the more upset I become. He really could be responsible for the destruction of thousands of collections. I plan on sending these results to the USDA and the California Department of Agriculture. In a way, he and his customers are all victims of careless lab work by a few Taiwanese operations, but he loses the benefit of the doubt when he continues to sell diseased plants.

That's a shame too. I really want to order a few cattleyas from them, but will now have to reconsider.
~Jem

Very few customers bother or are aware of the virus issues and so most companies figure why bother........shame, really a shame.

Sorry for my ignorant but.... what will happen to the plant that has virus? Will the virus shorten the life of the plant? I seen so many posts talking about viruses.... so what exactly is the problem with plants that have virus? They still going to bloom beautifully and live just like the one without the virus. I have over a hundred in my collection... I don't know if any of them have viruses and I don't really care as long as they bloom readily and look beautiful. I think this whole virus thing is a bit too extreme. I guess that is just me.

NamNhi

Some plants do not show any symptoms of virus, if this is the case there's nothing wrong with keeping the plant other than you pose a potential danger to your other plants. However in many cases virused plants show symptoms that are problematic as below and commonly produce inferior flowers.

Color break on flowers:

Necrosis of leaves:

Personally, I would prefer to avoid the above, especially on my favorite plants.

This situation is infuriating. Are the rest of your plants okay? I hope so. Sounds as if you'd take superior precautions.

Thanks much for the additional info.

Whitecat8

I see a future where orchids are readily available, cheap and always diseased. No one expects them to last more than a year and they really don't care. No one bothers to accumulate a collection and no one makes new interesting crosses because it so much cheaper to buy stock from overseas. No need for the AOS. These trends are already in place and I don't see it changing. The only question is will it take 10 years or 30 years and the widespread distibutuion of diseased orchids only quickens the pace.

The auction is for a large Phal Sogo Maria "Oriental Stripes" HCC/AOS from Norman's Orchids. It is about a foot across and looks great, but is contaminated with ORSV and CymMV orchid viruses, as were 5 of the last 9 phals I purchased from Norman's orchids. Buy this plant if you need a reference type for orchid viruses. DO NOT BUY THIS PLANT IF YOU HAVE A NICE ORCHID COLLECTION AS YOUR PLANTS WLL EVENTUALLY BECOME INFECTED AND DIE. You might think it strange for Norman's to sell virused plants, but this is their position as explained to me:

"We are not in the business of selling unhealthy plants, we would not ship diseased plants. However, we do not guarantee all our plants to be virus free. No orchid nursery in the US does this. Plants can be perfectly healthy and may test positive for the presence of a virus from tests that may or may not be accurate. As an analogy, 99.99% of the population in the US would test positive for some form of cold virus -- we do not conclude from this that the whole US population is diseased and quarantine this country from the rest of the world."

Of course the flaw in this analogy is that orchid viruses are lethal and the cold virus is not. Perhaps a better analogy would be Yellow Fever, where travel from an infected area is permitted only if you have documented proof of immunization.

A virus test strip from Agdia confirming the presence of ORSV and CymMV will be included free of charge.

Cymbidium Mosiac Virus is a very serious problem with Cymbidiums but i wonder what happens to other Genera with the infection?

And after reading all the various replies you have to wonder if people have thought this through thoroughly.

Would you ever buy another orchid from an orchid society sales table?

I sold a couple of in-bloom Cattleyas on e-bay the other week. The flowers and leaves looked fine but there is no way that i could say the the plants were not infected with a latent virus.

Do people really think that every plant sold can come with a virus free guarantee? Of course, you would say that people should test their plants and that might be fine for tiny collections.

I ask again - have you had your virus test confirmed by an outside lab? False/positives are not uncommon even when professional lab technicians run the test, relying on a do it yourself test is highly unreliable IMHO.

Do you have a good lawyer?

Brooke

John

Regarding the lawyer, that would be a great opportunity to recover my losses. Maybe a class action for others to recover their losses. Sounds good to me.

Your message will reach more orchid people than a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Norman's doesn't seem to be listed with them, and I don't recall anyone here except myself saying they check BBB before ordering from a vendor.

It's too bad the orchid world now has to deal with this virus issue. The danger to people's collections is bad enough, and John, I agree - it symbolizes the passing of an age. Painful and maddening.

Now I'm nervous about my one Phal from Norman's. Ack. Orchid527, thanks again for passing along the results of your expertise and experiences.

Whitecat8

Orchid527 that is totally awesome that you talked to Russ. That might really be important. The thing that occurs to me is unless somebody of any influence gets ahold of this and runs with it; it's not going to go anywhere. The main reason being that most of these larger growers and some smaller that we both know, do wholesale business. These florists that they deal with REALLY DO NOT CARE a lick about a plant with virus. And the majority of the people that those florists sell to, don't give a lick about virus. Which I don't know if that side of the business has more weight behind it than just the hobbyist side. I would almost guarantee that it does. I just feel someone has to be responsible for cleaning this up; or like you said earlier, there won't be one place to get clean healthy plants that aren't going to die on you in a couple of years.gb

First registered on April 2, 2008.

--Stitz--

I think you hit the nail on the head with your earlier comment that

"I think to have the best chance of getting a virus free plant you need to avoid meristems from Taiwan."

A thread on this same issue on another forum brought up the same point: the hygiene in the mericloning operations overseas is not always great.

Doesn't mean that other plants won't be carrying virus, but seed-grown species and hybrids will probably be less likely to be infected. Doesn't of course speak to arthur's point about the plants on the society exchange table.

It cannot be that hard (not to say there isn't any effort)to offer virus free plants as the industry is continually breeding, new seedlings are being awarded that the bulk of plants could be clean.

I also say to the ebay posting RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!

We are not in the business of selling unhealthy plants, we would not ship diseased plants.  However, we do not guarantee all our plants to be virus free.  No orchid nursery in the US does this.    Plants can be perfectly healthy and may test positive for the presence of a virus from tests that may or may not be accurate. Virus tests can only be performed accurately in a controlled environment in a certified laboratory. Do-it-yourself home kits, obviously, can produce false positive results. As an analogy, 99.99% of the population in the US would test positive for some form of cold virus  -- we do not conclude from this that the whole US population is diseased and quarantine this country from the rest of the world.

Our plants are constantly inspected by plant experts at the federal and state level and have always been found disease free. If a customer wishes, we can arrange a phyto sanitary certificate to be issued , this requires an inspection of the plants by an expert from the California Department of Agriculture and provides certification that they are pest and disease free. We often do this for our clients in Puerto Rico and Hawaii, areas that require such certification before plants are allowed to be brought in.

In this particular case, we offered the customer a full refund for any plants that he didn't want as long as he returned them to us. The customer had requested a full refund without returning the plants. We understand he is filing a chargebacck with the credit card company and auctioning off the "diseased" plants on E-bay.

Brooke

Why didn't these rating systems work?

They are subject to abuse.

* The feedback tends to mostly come only from unhappy customers

* The vindictive find these are great places to vent spleen

* You only get one side of the story

* Business competitors can post false information

* "Friends" of the Business can post glowing references

There may be legal problems. Some ot the local growers there may be able to add to this re. the demise of OGRES????

Note also that while we tend to see more negative reviews posted than positive, it is also possible that "no reviews" means bad. At least some of these ratings websites allow businesses to opt out.

I recently heard someone from the BB say that their database is going online - hopefully that will make them much more relevant and useful.

Why weren't the plants returned to Normans's for refund??

Jane

but concerning the topic at hand i think , and this is solely an opinion from some one who deals with multiple aspects of business, what they're doing is considered negligence, and in some way or another although im not saying you should or should'nt, the very least you can do is get the state ag dept to do some thing. also if one group of plants has them knowing that these viruses can be spread rather rapidly by vector, it's not to far off to assume that maybe 2-3 of the green houses are already contaminated. basically the only thing happening is that normans would suffer a biiiiigggg monetary loss but any who i suggest a list of vendors who provide some form of guarantee that their plants are virus free would be a great idea to help people in the future.

This was a good wakeup call - I've never checked my plants for virus and I've bought from small and large vendors as well as the society sales table...I could be breeding a cesspool of virus in my collection as we speak! That said, I kind of see it as a risk that is unavoidable...I mean, has everyone here tested every society table/small vendor bought plant for virus? Will you stop buying plants from the society table/small vendors now that this incident has come up?

*IF* it is indeed the NORM that vendors guarantee virus free plants in the US (does Oakhill guarantee virus free plants because I have some from them!), then I agree that Normans should have a similar system in place, and I would throw a fit too if they broke their guarantee. If it isn't the norm and there was no guarantee, then I'm of the opinion that the onus falls upon the consumer - it is unfortunate that they sold plants that are infected, but they did offer a refund which in my books is good customer service.

I have a thousand plus orchid collection garnered over 36 years where there are bound to be some plants that have virus.

Orchids are going to get very expensive if we go down the path of testing every plant that is sold.

I still waiting to hear what the effect of Cymbidium Mosiac virus is on other Genera. But, of course, those people selling virus kits are not going to tell us that sort of info. They want to maintain the hysteria.

In an orchid growing career spanning 36 years i'm seen plenty of that hysteria, particularly from Cymbidium growing experts where newbies have been reduced to tears and lost to the hobby by "experts" announcing to all and sundry in loud tones VIRUS.

the fact that they want the customer to pay return shipping is kind of a case in point example. imho thats a load of BS 100% usda select.

but such is the caveat that buyers have to be aware of. normally i post a question to gain info about a vendor before i make a purchase.

any ways normally the opinion on Normans is generally one of two extremes and all i can say is, get a back up verification on the plants infected before you make any more statements against Normans as they can if you're not careful get you for slander and some thing else i cant remember off the top of my mind. but then again they cant cause they cant access origin ip and mac addresses.

I just had a funny thought, although kinda mean but only cause i get the question from some people some times my self.

the way wildpaph types is the way the guy sounded on the other end of the line when i called normans about the quality of the orchids i got and wanted a return

and a correction to employee

virus testing does not have to be done inside of a lab, in fact, the fact that you'd try to pass that as the truth is ridiculous and you should slap your self...

lol some one should go put this up on all the orchid forums XD. what a world of pain that would be,

any ways as a final thought. now a days i try to only purchase when i can visually inspect plants before hand. saves me a lot of fuss later on

=D
Gaston

The AOS should show they really care about the hobby growers and push for a virus cleanup campaign, though I doubt that they will do anything that goes against the commercial grower's grain. The potted plant business has evolved into a throw away market and it would be too expensive for the growers to start from scratch to ensure all plants are virus free.

This virus problem is long overdue to hit the proverbial fan, maybe this is the starting point. Posting the virused plant on Ebay is GREAT advertising for the cause. I doubt they'll reconsider their business practices.

What would shake Norman up is if most of the perspective buyers at his next show/event inquire about virus policy before buying plants and then walk away when they don't like his answer.

Kudos to orchid527 for pushing this issue...

In your post dated Sun, Mar 30, 08 at 18:11, you wrote "I used the Agdia Immunoassay test kits. The supplies were fresh, I was trained by the company..."

I would like to get this same training. Please, advise me on how to proceed? Thank you.

--Stitz--

It takes 'exchange of body fluids' to transfer a virus, no different than Herpes or HIV in humans. People who claim to have contacted Herpes from a toilet seat were not alone in the stall. Similarly merely watering or handling intact plants will not transmit. I only use precautions when handling plants whose fluids have come to the surface as in dividing or trimming. Gloves, flaming, keeping aphids under control and newspaper surface covering to be changed after each plant seems to be enough. I know I have had virused plants as long as 10 years ago and if simply splashing water or handling intact plants could transmit the virus, my entire collection should be virused by now, this is obviously not the case. If I discard 3 or 4 plants per year, I can live with that. Without freaking out about the problem, loosing sleep and testing each and every plant, my system seems to work.

I think a good dose of common sense will keep your collection healthy but not 100% virus free. Most vendors I know will refund WITH RETURN OF PLANT AND PROOF OF TESTING. Norman is in line with this and should not be faulted. Good public relations is another issue, not reputed to be his strong point.

I remember years ago when one of my big beautiful Cymbidiums showed chlorophyll breaks in a new leaf, I showed the leaf to one of my orchid club's Cymb experts who confirmed what I all ready knew. "But this is one of my really beautiful Cymbidium" I whined. "Have you got a really beautiful garbage can?" was his response.

Viruses are a fact of life but really 'No Beeg Theeng'. Literally, the buggers are very small, don't make them any bigger than they really are.

Nick

My concern is that, after 3 short years in orchids, I don't recognize viruses, so anything weird-looking could be trouble... or, worse, a virused plant might not look suspicious to me.

Also, 2 different professional growers w/ multiple greenhouses have told me they take the precautions many of us hear about: changing gloves (or washing hands) between plants when repotting or trimming roots or leaves, sterilizing tools, using a clean surface for each plant, etc.

Yes, water gets splashed among plants in their greenhouses, but many of those folks can spot trouble sooner than a lot of hobbyists.

Until I know more, I'll worry about viruses periodically.

Related note from March, 2006: "Members of the Orchid Society of India today called for a ban on the import of diseased flowers from Thailand and other South Asian countries, a trend which was harming the Indian floriculture industry." It's the 8th article down. Also, it's unclear if the members are speaking for the society itself, or if they're individual members of a local chapter.

Anyone know if they’re having any success?

Whitecat8

One can coexist with virused plants. Most Portias are, by definition, virused. The original cross accidentally introduced virus into the cross which was cloned and like the medieval plague spread through the orchid world. I have a few Portias which I keep separated from the others. I tested one and sure enough it was positive. Year after year it produces beautiful flowers and I cannot see evidence of the disease. Portias are the exeption to the rule. Unless the plant goes downhill, I will not discard it as this group for some reason seems to tolerated the unwelcome passenger.

Any comments on Portias?

Nick

Welcome back, gee, I haven't seen you here for AGES!
Oddly enough, I was thinking about you the other day - My Stan tigrina just completed it's annual bloom, and I got that one from you :)

Good to have you around,
Carolyn

Had a health problem 3 years ago, totally fixed now and moved to a house with a large back yard at the same time, the 'Perfect Storm'. Did not re-establish the complete climate control I had then, growing under shade cloth only, no greenhouse, and therefore had to cut back to the Cyms, Cats, Onc etc Have a lot of Australian Dendrobiums, everyone has to be happy in my backyard as is or they are not welcome. So no more species but I still have over 1,000 plants that like the environment as is.

Nice to hear from you, Nick.

Thank you for sharing your test results!

--Stitz--

John

Thanks for the info. Were these phals that you had tested? If so, could you tell me which MC numbers? Thanks.

Mike

Incidentally, I had a Bow Bells from Carter & Holmes show up with curled, weak growths and the same, cloudy look show up in my last order from them, a real disappointment. I'm about resigned to buying only the orchids I can examine in person. I use a separate razor on every plant whenever I prune, but I worry about the occasional insect invader munching on one root here, then another one there, and the inevitable water splash.

Just thought I'd pass this along.