This is interesting to me. I have considered using it for my Broms, but didn't think about Orchids. Do you get your Orchids to bloom more often? More blooms? Stay compact? What kind of results?

Through many years, I found that my orchid plants grow more vigorously with the Tomato Plant Food. During warmer months, I use this as a primary fertilizer for orchids. I use other fertilizers (MSU formula, Grow More, Peters) as supplements because trace minerals/elements are a long term concern with these other products.

A friend emailed me today telling me (this Spring, once again!) that her Phals respond better to this Tomato fertilizer than any other!

I have not considered using the Tomato Plant Food with my Broms -- yet! I have successfully used Grow More formulations with my broms. I currently have 3 Vrieseas in spike, including Vriesea hieroglyphica, a rarely flowered one. hort_lvr_4life, please -- send a PM and we can discuss the Broms further away from this Orchids Forum.

Let's discuss the tomato fertilizer and orchids some more on this forum!!

--Stitz--

Broms need fertilizer? Actually they do go with orchids because in an AOC judged display they are the only in flower plant allowed.

Tomato Food. Miracle-Gro all purpose plant food. Endorsed by the AOS. Urea free.... Marketing words to get our money.

Stitz. Did you run trials? Perhaps all these wonderful results are just due to some minor change that you made in your conditions.

If you ask the guy who won the Annual Points-score trophy last year at the local orchid society he would tell you that he uses a fertilizer with a low Nitrogen number all year. He has wonderful growing conditions and wonderful orchids.

I use Miracle-Gro all purpose plant food on everything in Summer. Just fill up the applicator, attach it to the hose and water garden plants and orchids.

So do you and your friends have more abundance with the blooms since there is more K in the Tomato food or blooming more often? What strength do you use and how often?

According to this article I found through Google, Nitrogen derived from urea is not readily available to Orchids. However, I don't know if it's professionally written from a case study or just someone's oppinion. I take it with a grain of salt.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fertilizing Orchids

arthur,
You are fortunate to be able to include flowering broms with your orchid displays, if you choose.

No, I didn't run any trials. I don't have the facilities nor do I have the resources to do a proper "study". Orchids are my hobby.

--Stitz--

Urea is not available to orchids but it is metabolized by bacteria covering the media. The urea is quickly converted to nitrite, then to nitrate which is absorbed by the plants. In potted plants it hardly makes a difference, mounted plants without benefit of bacteria covered media would probably do better with urea free fertilizer.

Nick

Yes those wonderful bacteria are everywhere otherwise we would be in deep do do.

Cannot remember all the stuff on the last thread on orchid fertilizer but the upshot of it was that the manufacturer is having a bet three ways and therefore has the three forms of Nitrogen included in most orchid formulations.

Around these parts (Sydney, Australia) a common orchid is Dockrillia linguiformis. No lush tropical rain forest around these parts, maybe a sandstone rock tilted a bit so it gets a bit of morning sun, some half dead moss or lichen or leaf litter that fungi and bacteria break down, perhaps some tiny dead things, perhaps a bit of poo once in a blue moon. The orchid exists in barren places and depends entirely on fungi and bacteria to survive. Not the lush jungle that most imagine. So the orchid gets by and flowers every spring. I'm just writing this stuff to get past the strange idea that some have of orchids growing in some sort of pristine sterile tropical paradise.

If you have this orchid it is easily killed by too much TLC.

The orchid fertilizer manufacturer has no control over the conditions, the potting mixes or the types of orchids grown by the hobby grower so we get the best guess in making up the formula.

Instead of a mixed up mess of a collection that i own, if say, i had an orchid nursery with thousands and thousands of Phalaenopsis perhaps then a special formulation to suit my nursery conditions would be a goer.

Stitz, sorry about the trial comment but that is the retort i got when i told a plant Scientist that Diatomite was pretty good. He said "Did you run some trials."

Having the word "tomato" or "orchid" on the label doesn't change that it is a low even-numbered fertilizer that is good for general use. As Arthur said, the mixed-up collections that most of us have make matching exact requirement.

Whenever I get an itch to get fancy with ferts, I picture a bird sitting on an orchid in the wild, pooping as it takes off. That and a little dust is what the plant has to work with and it gets along ok.

It may be urban legend, but I seem to recall that Miracle Grow was developed for orchids, but when they saw how many more people grew tomatoes than grew orchids, they changed the label.

Stitz

I used Miracle-Grow Tomato fertilizer on my orchids for years with good results. I have used a variety of different types since then and to be honest I don't see much difference in the results. I do see a BIG difference in ease of use for different types of fertilizer as some have homogeneity and solubility problems. The Miracle-Gro didn't have these problems and it was cheap.

Mike

The goal of this post is to identify products which provide the greatest yield of flowers to our orchid plants.

The tomato plant has a short life span and an even shorter effective production period. Let's face it, the fertilizer better be effective during July and August or ELSE (I won't purchase it again!) !!

Tomato fruits originate with flowers. I "assume" that this fertilizer facilitates a high yield in flowers/fruits.

Tomato growers are very good at sharing their success. Miracle-Gro has a very good reputation/track record.

arthur, for decades I was a scientist on the job. It's too much work to devise a "study" at home! :)

richardol, pleeze -- formulate and package that bird poop!!

Mike, you are right about solubility and homogeneity. MSU formula fertilizers immediately come to my mind.... Any others?

Miracle-Gro, cheap? Where/how do I find it, inexpensively? I'm serious.

--Stitz--

Hope I'm not sounding like a broken record...I've made this recommendation before on this forum. For the money, there is no better fertilizer for orchid hobbyists than the MiracleGro African Violet concentrate in the purple bottle. It is 7-7-7, has micros, and costs about $2.50 at most WalMarts, K-Marts, and possibly Lowe's/HD.

Before I switched to this several years ago, I religiously used Jerry's, and was NOT impressed. The most frustrating thing about Jerry's was that the elements precipitated out of solution, and could not be re-dissolved no matter what I tried.

At one tablespoon per gallon, the MiracleGro will make 24 gallons.

If I may make an observation, the best-looking orchids in situ are the ones growing on tree branches, where there is micorrhyzal fungus, decaying matter, etc., OR, those growing as terrestrials where there are plenty of nutrients. Lithophytes, IMHO (even with the occasional bird poop!) look like, you know...crap! Give 'em some fert, I say!

-Bruce

Stitz

I thought the price on the large box at Lowes was pretty reasonable. Regarding those MSU variants and solubility problems. I had been using one recently that would precipitate with well water, so I finally installed an RO system and dropped the TDS to 6 ppm. Guess what. The fertilizer still precipitates at any amount over 40 grams per gallon. That's only about 1%. So much for trying to make a concentrate to avoid homogeneity issues. I think I need to find a better source.

Mike

Okay, I have a bit of silliness to add to this conversation. It's quite generic, but I saw better results in my Phal that I've had for six years when I had fish and gave it the old fish water when I cleaned the tank. BUT I also #1) had the time to pay attention to the orchid #2) used an eastern exposure #3) didn't use much A/C because I was only dating my husband at that time and I paid the bills so he was not allowed to touch the thermostat #4) and I put it outside for every rainfall.

I *guess* what it really came down to is it had great growing conditions and was fed.

I do have a question though: this whole seaweed thing...what's it all about? I see it all over in seed catalogues etc. How does it benefit plants [particularly] orchids?

At one time I thought the benefit of seaweed extract was calcium, which is a necessary component in plant health, but somewhat difficult to come by. Lo and behold, my bottle of seaweed extract says nothing about calcium. The only thing of note in the rather sparse breakdown of elements is Potash 1.5%. Potash essentially boosts the Potassium side of the NPK balance.

By comparison, these are the micros in MiracleGro African Violet:

Boron 0.02%
Copper 0.05%
Iron 0.10%
Manganese 0.08%
Zinc 0.05%

The formula is derived from urea, but I don't buy into the urea/non-urea hype.

As far as calcium goes, when I used to have time (and had a ready source of shell-rock), I used to pound shell rock into powder, steep in a jar of water a few days, then put into my sprayer for a semi-annual dose of calcium. This year I bought a gallon of liquid Super-Cal for my fruit trees, and will use some on the orchids.

Anecdotally, I did see a comparison once between identical orchids watered/fertilized conventionally, and a control group watered/fed with nasty green water from an overstocked turtle pond. The difference in growth was astonishing, and the turtles get the nod, hands down! ;-)

-Bruce

I just grabbed my bottle of Algoflash tomato fertilizer, and this is the breakdown of their formula:

Nitrogen - 4 (Nitrate 1.6%, Ammoniacal N 0.4%, Urea 2%)
Phosphorus - 6
Potassium - 8

Sulfur 0.8%
Magnesium 0.6%
Boron 0.01%
Copper 0.002%
Iron 0.05%
Manganese 0.02%
Molybdenum 0.001%
Zinc 0.0125%

Impressive...although we're talking tiny amounts of these elements. I may consider a supplementation with this on my orchids once in a while.

BTW, I also use Jobe's spikes and the Super-Cal on my tomatoes! Organic gardening? Bah!

-Bruce

Bruce, thank you for the details of the African Violet formula. I intend to include this fertilzer into my "rotation" of products.

Something that I hear repeatedly at the orchid society meetings that I attend re: fertilizer products is that there is not one product which provides "everything". The best idea -- use a variety of "good" products.

I copied the following directly from a label of MSU Formulation, Well Water Formula:

(Target Rate 125 ppm N), for use with Well Water or Municipal Tap Water.

Nitrogen 19%
(Nitrate 13.6%,
Ammoniacal 5.7%)

Phosphorus 4.00
Potassium 23.00

Iron 0.16%
Manganese 0.08
Zinc 0.08
Copper 0.08
Boron 0.02
Molybdenum 0.02

Mike -- please, let us know when you find a better source of the MSU formula. I understand the difficulty of homogeneity. If a provider (manufacturer or vendor) cannot meet this quality requirement, IMHO it is better to not sell the product.

--Stitz--

Hey Stitz!

I'm gonna try Miracle Gro for Tomatoes!
What concentration are you using?
I try to water weakly weekly, Currently using Jack's 1/4 t per gal

nicole

Hey Nicole,

Late February, I started using 1 teaspoon/gallon.
March, I increased to 2 teaspoons/gallon.
April, I increased to the recommended 1 TABLEspoon/gallon.
Latter May through July, I use 1 TB + 1 tsp/gallon.
I graduallyreduce the concentration in August through October.

I use sufficient quantities of water between applications of fertilizer to prevent fertilizer salt "issues".

Hope that this helps,

--Stitz--

--Stitz--

Our local Orchid Society mostly uses MSU.

Alright, I've got another question/idea. Tractor Supply has Chicken Grit that boasts a min. of 10% Ca. What about using a pinch or two to the water and let it sit a while to be absorbed a bit by the water?

Does it sound silly?

I honestly don't feel like Jack's does anything for my orchids. I am not saying it's the Ca; I'm just saying I need to try something other than Jack's.

I like the idea of using many good products.

Bruce - so glad to know YOU're the one who recommended the Miracle Grow AV fertilizer. The 7-7-7 is appealing. Thank you. In a post awhile back, I talked about not finding it in the Minneapolis area after a cursory search and then spotting the liquid form in a bottle halfway across a Kroger gro sto in Little Rock, Arkansas while visiting my Dad. Oh, happy day!

Previous fertilizers have been Orchid Jungle from Orchids Ltd. and MSU. Maybe one is better than another, but there are so many variables around here that I can't say anything with certainty.

Thanks for the thread, Stitz.

Whitecat8

Glad you were finally able to locate some, Whitecat8! Hopefully you can find a source closer to home!

-Bruce

hort_lvr_4life,

Turkey grit is often used as an ingredient in some orchid mixes. The next time that I pass by a Southern States store, I intend to purchase a couple of bags.

--Stitz--

Wow...and I thought I was being original.

Turkey and chicken grit (called Starter grit) USUALLY are granite except in coastal areas where it is oyster shell. Does ground up granite have calcium in it? I add oyster shell to some Paphs and Phrags for the calcium but never the turkey grit.

I used the turkey grit as part of my bonsai potting media for years and the warning is to make sure you didn't use oyster shell because of the calcium.

Turkey grit is also a good topping on a peat based media to eliminate fungus gnat infestation. For $5 you can get a 50# bag in this area. Chicken grit is too fine, it isn't much bigger than play sand or contractors sand and can almost become like concrete.

Brooke

I bought MSU fertilizer from a well-known seller. Junk fertilizer!!: an inhomogeneous home-made mixture with different grain sizes and colors. Moreover, it melts right away like ice cream when you open it. Call seller and complain and he said that manufacture cannot grind fertlizer because ingredients are so hydroscopic therefore it clogs mixture machine!!! You have to mix it with water after open it. (don't said loud: we can go to the moon but cannot grind fertilizer!!!). I did as he said and a month later bacteria are all over the solution.

I believe that MSU formula is good but it's hard to make and not stable. It's the reason why MSUniversity doesn't allow to said MSU fertilizer. Many MSU users now use Peters orchid 12-3-15 for RO water and 16-4-20 for well water. You may try Scotts Professional 17-3-17 for RO and 15-5-25 for well water. They have almost the same N P K, Ca, Mg as MSU, homogeneous, stable, cheaper, and from big reliable companies. Plus they don't change much pH during and after uptake so you don't worry about pH and flush often.

tcuser,

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

--Stitz--

Wow, don't think I'll be jumping on the local OS bandwagon of using the MSU formula. Sounds like a waste of time and money.

Currently, I rotate between the Jacks and MG for acid loving plants. I just read the boxes and neither say anything about having Ca. In addition, they're both derived from Urea, the MG has less than the Jack's.

So I have a question (again). As you already know, I am a *novice* and am clueless overall. I also don't have testing equipment other than my litmus papers. How can you tell if a fertilizer is unstable or has homogeniality problems?

I would be more inclined to take the advice of my local orchid club members than a piece of info stated on an internet forum.

Brooke

What I'm curious about is how does one gauge the effectiveness of fertilizer? I mean, so many factors influence how our orchids grow - I know some people who rarely fertilize and get marvelous results. There must be hundreds of confounding factors and I'm wondering whether light, temperature, humidity and seasonal variation play bigger roles over the type of fertilizer used.

Easy! You run trials or as Brooke says you ask the best growers at your local orchid society what they do.

Too often, a great looking orchid collection is thought to be the result of some sort of wondrous fertilizer routine when in fact it is the result of getting growing conditions right.

It doesnÂt require being an expert to tell a bad fertilizer. Just use common sense. You see a mixture of large, small, fine particles you know itÂs a bad fertilizer. When you shake the mixture you will see big particles go to the bottom, medium particles in the middle and find power at the top (or reverse). Exactly with MSU fertilizer: a mixture of white crystals, green powder, and fine dark-color powder. Take a teaspoon of this fertilizer, you no longer get MSU formula of NPK?. Think about this: You buy a bottle of Tylenol. The first tablet doesnÂt have ingredient to reduce your headache but the second tablet may brings you to a hospital because over dosage. The first spoon doesnÂt help your orchids but the second spoon my kill your plants. That is why we pay big bucks for drug companies to make sure every tablet has exactly the same a mount of ingredient.
LetÂs talking about stable? You buy a bag of fertilizer and it melts before you use it. So itÂs stable, right?

Well, I've been using MSU for reverse osmosis water for about 1.5 years now, mainly because that's the only one I know that's designed for RO water. The main problem is that I accidentally got some water into the bottle and it got kinda crusty..but I haven't had any real problems and my plants are doing fine. Not sure what you mean by melting though.

I guess being a scientist, I feel that short of running controlled trials with identical plants in identical conditions, there is really no way to determine whether something is much better than something else....and realistically, who (even experts) have the resources to do that? Ultimately, I have a feeling that differences between fertilizers are probably quite subtle.

I was at an orchid workshop last weekend and heard a great talk by a chemist. He started by talking heresy, which is that you could probably not bother fertilizing at all and your orchids would do OK. Thinking back to many years ago, when I had just a few rescue phals tucked in the back of the light garden, he was right.

Of course, for better growth and blooming, he did say that fertilizer is helpful. He rotates among various fertilizers, some orchid, some generic, pretty much whatever he's got and whatever people have given him over the years.

He prefers the rotation because of the slight differences in formulations. His analogy was, "Let's say you really love eating shrimp. Would you want shrimp for breakfast, lunch, and dinner everyday?"

He did stress the importance of micronutrients, and he was fond of fish emulsion, if you're up for dealing with the odor.

I've been using Jack's liquid concentrate, and I'm happy with the results - EXCEPT most of the phaius seem to get tip burn often after I fertilize, even though I water with plain water first, then go back and fertilize. And I use a weaker concentration. And I leach with clear water about every other watering.

Oddly, the big phaius that is in promix/bark doesn't do this; just the ones in sphag. Any idea why?

Up the page a bit i wrote about a species of Dockrillia that appears to exist on nothing much at all. Haven't tried nil fertilizer though the few orchids in my sons collection bloom with nil fertilizer and nil care. Cannot say the flowers are great.

I do not think Phaius tankervilleae grows in spag bogs so Promix/bark might be a better medium.

Here is a description of where it grows from Native Orchids of Australia by David L jones.
" This species grows in moist to wet habitats, particularly permanent swamps where it may occur in extensive patches in black peaty soil. It also colonises localised depressions and soaks in open forest and grassland and is occasionally even found growing on well drained sites."
When i grew it potted in Cymbidium mix which is denser than say Cattleya mix it thrived and flowered but it grew too big for my limited space.

Haven't answered the question except to say that spag. may not be the optimum medium. A couple of Hybrid Phaius were included in the the lucky dip plants from a nursery, they were in a Promix/bark type mixture rather than spag.

i guess it's my turn for input, For years i've been using a formulation called dutch master one for flower production one for vegetative growth, found these to work very consistently and also are so minimal in tds I tend to run little risk of fert burns etc etc, the one thing it does have is that they're both loaded with macro/micros which of course is due to the fact that the fert was developed for MJ growers.

in addition i apply twice weekly from spring - fall via foliar spray, what can i say i don't like having to flush often

Second on the topic of bird poo ferts they've already been packaged. most are actually bat guano but there is a sea bird poop one as well

most are sold by hydroponic stores and have been gathered in several different locations globally, more interestingly is that these locations are also the geographical basing for most orchids.(could this mean that mexican bat guano = good for mexican chids?) any ways

i wont supply a link simply because it's better in these cases to attain the products from local hydro shops then on line, being that it'll save you some where in the ball park of 20$

i will supply product names and link for product info
all manufactured by sunleaves

it comes in these flavors

Mexican
Peruvian
Jamaican
and Indonesian
also sea bird

i haven't used them yet because i think i'm thwarted by the possible stench

Gaston

Here is a link that might be useful: check it out

arthurm, interesting information on the phaius. Almost all of the growers online say to grow in sphag, but it just isn't working well for me.

I just repotted the big, happy phaius, and it was actually in straight promix, without any bark. The roots looked great. I guess I'll be moving the others into promix soon too.

Do not know about spag. seems to give great results for some growers, horrible results for other growers.

The subject of Magnesium and Calcium has come up in another thread about red leaves on Laeliinae orchids in high light.

Just wondering why some complete orchid fertilizers include these ingredients while others do not.

Apart from Miracle-Gro all purpose plant food in summer the other stuff i use is 12:12:20 with trace elements including Magnesium .1% and Calcium .12%

arthurm, ironically, my phals do great in sphag! Probably because my grow room is full of plant lights, so it is hot and bright, and the moss doesn't stay wet very long. I have trouble keeping the phals watered enough if I don't use the moss, actually.

got tomato miracle grow by accident and used on my palm sago andyucca cane..will this help or hurt???/ mew plants

I have used Miracle Gro Tomato fertilizer on my orchids and all of my too many house plants and it seems to work fine. Although, I use very little of it. Typically, I put about three tablespoons of it in an old 4 oz Schultz cactus fertilizer bottle and fill it with water. I add two or three eye droppers full to about two gallons of water and water everything. The bottle lasts about a year.

Wow, this is an old post. I saw the post from Stitz and was thrilled to see he was back...until I noticed the date.

Jane