It really is amazing when you realize just how much a limiting factor water can be in terms of growth. What just a little bit of underwatering can prevent. It was a wake up call for me, for sure.

Phrags are the first to come to mind when you think of setting plants in water (besseae and its hybrids, anyways). Pleurothallid family in general (particularly those that spike upwards, not so much the downward spikers) I suppose should like it maybe during hot weather, not so sure about during cooler weather though. Makes me worry for diseases. But I don't grow them so can't say for sure.

My local supermarket check out queen thinks i must be a new Girl Guide leader as I purchased a bunch of cookie sheets from her over the last few days. The entire rain forest group is now in there. I'll lift the Draculas up every week to see if a spike is trying to come out.

There is no reason this should not work, it's very similar to the popular semi-hydroponic growing method which was the rage a few years ago. Even though people are still doing it, the heat has gone out of that fad. I did it and the plants grew well,however I missed watering them and eventually watered them anyway wich is ridiculous. I abandoned it for that reason, not because it was not working. With a shallow cookie tray exess water just overflows, so I can still water every day.

I have great hopes for this.

Nick

Next questions:

Bulbos are gluttonous pigs, I'm not worried about their fertilizer.

Rain forest plants are delicate creatures who need the right strength of nutrients. Right now they are sitting in pure RO water with less than 10 ppm. Tomorrow I plan to add a sprinkle of fertilizer until the ppm reaches 50. They will sit in this solution for days until there is a water change.

Anyone know the correct ppm for this situation and any comments on MSU fertilizer. Is it worth the price of admission?

Nick

I have grown many of my bulbos and pleuros in clay pots filled with sphagnum. I soak the pots (water over the top) - plant and all - in a basin for five or ten minutes. Then, place it back in its growing spot. I do this once or twice a week. They seem to enjoy it.

There are Bulbos and Bulbos and i read the other day that some of them do not like treefern mounts. I think that the tray of water may be a goer for other Genera as well, but as always it is a thing of experimentation. A bit difficult when you only have one of something.
Some of the Australian Bulbos have a reputation of being Dendrobium cuthbertsonii ish so i do not even try. Bulbophyllum elisae comes to mind.

Why would your RO water have any ppm?

I use MSU for pure because my water is rain water or RO. Do I like it, I guess since my plants do well on it and it is the only formula of fert I can find for pure water.

Masdies sitting in fertilizer water? I wouldn't use a constant supply of fert for them. I grow my masdies very wet but I only fertilize them 3x a month during the winter and 2x a month during the summer. I also use it very diluted - 1/4 and 1/8 t. per gallon. I had trouble with brown leaf tips if over fertilized.

I did consider putting Pescatoria coelestis and a Pescoranthes sitting in water but never got around to it. I just water them every day.

Brooke

My measuring device only shows 'less than 10' so I don't know if it's 0 or 5. I fertilize similar to you, Brooke, except once a week. The rest of the time water with straight RO. In any given week, they get a measured amount of nutrient. I just thought of giving them the same amount in the water they are sitting in, no more. Regular 20/20/20 with micro has worked well but then so many people claim MSU is better. The only guy in our society who grows D cuthbersonii well (remember this is SOCAL, not San Francisco) uses regular fertilizer.

Where do you buy your MSU?

Nick

Mr Ray sells MSU...you know, the feller whose name we can't mention on GW! His prices are reasonable.

--Stitz--

To me, one question is still unanswered. Would the plant suffer harm from sitting in pure RO water for a week. Does osmosisi suck nutrients out of the plants? I think there should be no harm but would like that verified.

Nick

To me, one question is still unanswered. Would the plant suffer harm from sitting in pure RO water for a week. Does osmosisi suck nutrients out of the plants? I think there should be no harm but would like that verified.

Nick

Damage from r/o is more along the lines of slowly starving the plant by virtue of the dirth of nutrients in pure water, not so much pulling nutrients from the plant. Emphasis on slow. A week shouldn't harm anything.

Sitting in RO isn't going to harm the plants.

On the bulbos or phrags I never use fertilizer in the saucers. Once I week I remove the saucers, flush the media and then fertilize. I then put the sacuers back with clean water. "They" say, fertilizer is usable while the media is wet so my whacked brain tells me I don't need the fertilizer in the saucer water - the container never dries out and the saucers stay cleaner longer. I have eliminated leaf tip die back on phrags with this method.

My masdies stay constantly wet because I water daily with rain/RO and fert applications are very light. I grow them in net pots in sphag/tree fern mix. If you sit the masdies in RO water is there a need to have fert available 24/7? They aren't heavy feeders and are even quicker than a phrag to show their displeasure of salt build up.

I have gotten my MSU from Ray or Kelly's Korner. If I remember reading the labels of various fertilizers the MSU pure has more micro/macro nutrients than other ferts because it is for - pure.

Once a month I do use KLN or epson salt and an iron supplement just to switch up except on the masdies and phrags. I tried seaweed extract but saw no difference in any of the plants so eliminated that.

I have no expereience with Den. cuthbersonii and have no intention of ever trying it.

Brooke

Nick,

Think in terms of the blood-brain barrier in mammals; a similar "barrier" exists once nutrients are stored in plants.

--Stitz--

I've grown many different orchids this way. I use wood baskets and sit them on plastic, supermarket-salad trays. They are about 1-inch deep. The wood basket stays damp and wicks water up. The roots love clinging to the damp wood. Probably similar to Brooks mounts except the wood baskets are filled with sphag, bark, CHC or Aussie. I use whatever is laying around. Doesn't matter as the roots seek the wet wood and the water in the trays.

I've grown small Catts, hard-cane dends, masdes, Encyclia and brassavola's. I use RO water with MSU Pure but also have started using a fertilizer from Norman's Orchids with good results. It is similar to MSU and I've been impressed with the growth.

I cut up mesh bags (onions) to line the baskets. Sit the baskets in the plastic trays and water from below. The difference is the wood basket has legs which keep it above the water line but wick the water up to the basket.

Doesn't matter how large the plant grows, it can't fall over. I just need to remember to keep the trays filled.

Jane

Intriguing. What's a plantar tray? The Google doesn't know.

I like this idea. I do it with my one pleurothallis and it enjoys itself. Jane - I like the water up the wood idea - had some wood mounts in water and the roots liked to attach to the wood like mad. But how do you prevent the rapid rotting of the wood?

I talked to Marnie Turkel this morning. For those of you who don't know who she is, at least on the West Coast, she is one of, if not the best, species grower. Also sells real great species on Ebay under the moniker 'mostlyspecies'.

Bulbos no argument. Rainforest plants she is not sure off. Prefers to water them daily with RO which is augmented with MSU pure to 150 ppm. She has tried them in water pans and thinks it gets to be a real soggy mess.

It may be worth a try, I will definitely use it when I leave town for a few days as my replacement waterer is a hit or miss type of guy. His quality of watering depends on how many beers he had prior to watering, on real hot days his beer intake goes up with the temp. What I will do is make duplicate pairs, 2 in the water 2 next to them getting watered every day, we'll see how it turns out.

Nick

Nick,

Happy Trails Tooo Youuuu!

Leave enough beer in your frig and the "replacement waterer" might decide to camp out thereby increasing the frequency of attention to your plants....whenever he wakes up, sunup or sundown!!

--Stitz--

It's been 2 weeks now since most of them went into the water trays. I took a close look at them this morning. Nothing negative to report, no rot or mushy roots. Great new growth but that needs to be discussed.

The Bulbos are showing good new growth but they had that before the water treatment. No evidence of anything negative.

The rain forest plants are markedly improved. Draculas, Masdevallias, Pleuros, Stellis, Gongoras and others all show improved new growth with multiple new leaves appearing on most. Is that because of the water tray treatment? I don't know as several factors made life better for these plants.

1) It's Spring, every thing is busting out all over.

2) My cold greenhouse got finished at the same time the water trays got started so for the first time they are in humid, moist air circulating around them 24 hours a day. They were in the same temp before as it was cold outside 3 weeks ago but the humidity and the air movement is an improvement.

3) They are getting much more attention from me as I watch them with anticipation. Without the water trays there were times when it would be 48 hours between watering which is not appreciated by some of them.

Summing up, after only 2 weeks I notice improved growth in the rain forest plants, most noticeably the Pleuro types (Dracs, Masdies and Pleuros), but cannot entirely credit the water trays with the change as there were other factors in play. Nothing negative has shown up.

By the way I use RO water for them and add fertilizer to reach a ppm of between 150 and 200. I give them a light superficial misting every day which is probably mostly for my benefit as they really don't need to be watered. Keep the level of water at 1/2" above the bottom of the plant.
The ones in baskets need an extra 1/2" as the basket elevates them, the basket ones are all grouped in one tray. I guess I will have to lift the bottom bloomers up once a week to check for emerging spikes.

Nick

Here's the thing Nick. You know your plants better than anyone. You're noticing enhanced growth. The question is: is the growth enhanced more than in previous years. . Bottom line: since your culture has changed, has the growth been better than ever? If so, you can say with some modicum of certainty that it is indeed responsible.

This is the first time I had a cold greenhouse in 5 years. Because of the multiple factors I cannot say with certainty what causes the increased growth. Due to lack of a cold greenhouse I have avoided cold loving plants and only last fall, once I knew that I would be able to offer this did I get the Dracs, etc, that I have now.

For that reason I cannot compare their growth to previous years. Comparing their growth to the last 4 to 5 month, there has been a noticeable surge in the last 2 weeks, which, as I pointed out, also coincides with the use of the new greenhouse and the arrival of spring.

My gut feeling is that the shallow water trays are a positive factor. Hopefully others will try it and report.

Nick

Looked at 3 plants today, a Maxillaria, a Liparis and a Coelogeny. All show better than usual growth rate. They have been in water tray for 4 plus weeks now and the number of new leads appearing is astonishing. The Maxillaria has 8 new leads on 5 old bulbs, the Liparis 8 new on 7 old and the Coelogeby 7 on 8.

Possibly some of you get growth rates like that, I usually don't. For me these are exeptional growth rates. As before, no conclusive proof that the water trays are responsible only very strong suspicion.

Bought a bunch more trays today and am going to try growing more and more plants this way. I have a good controll group in some NBS Kawamoto catt hybrid clones. Have about 30 each of 10 different clones. Will place an equal number in water and leave the same number of plants in the same location with the usual watering. Will try to match them up so that all the plants have the same number of bulbs and growing points going in. Cattleyas should NOT like this constant moisture, if they do, it would be astonishing.

Wish I could do this with some of the water loving plants but these catt hybrids are the only ones I have multiples off.

Nick

Nick, what are your temp ranges in your cold greenhouse? And congratulations on it.

The swamp cooler initiates at 68F and pretty much stays on all day. It blows the cool humid air under the bench in one corner. 2 fans circulate it under the benches in a circular fashion, all the while cool air escapes upward. There is an exhaust window on the opposite side of the swamp cooler at the highest point which dumps the air at whatever temp it is by then into the warm greenhouse helping to keep it from overheating. The temp at bench level reaches about 75F to 77F max. Ambient temp at night is in the high 50F at this time, usually about 56F to 58F. This gives a 20F difference between day and night. So far so good, the real Summer heat has not been experienced yet. If it gets too hot I'm prepared to throw a layer of Aluminet 30% 1/2' above the GH and remove it again in the fall. I'm also planning to add a sprinkler system under the benches which might go on several times per day to periodically soak the gravel floor. All the plants in the cold GH get watered with RO.

Nick

Nick, you have the mind of an inventor - and an orchid addict. :) Nice touch about the air from the cool GH lowering temps in the warm one.

Maybe this tray method will work in my environment. I'd given up on Bulbos, Masdies, Pleuros, etc., even warmth-tolerant hybrids, 'cause I couldn't provide enough humidity or moisture. Well, that's my theory, anyway.

(Exception - since I've been watering regularly again, the tiny, mounted Pleuro tribuloides has started spiking like crazy in low humidity.)

Even though the mounties get soaked for at least an hour every day, all but one are bone dry 24 hours later. Maybe, maybe I can try these again.

Thanks again for the good info.

WC8

Another one to add to the list: A Dracula with 5 old leaves is making 8 new ones and 2 flower stalks. We are having a Dracula expert talk to us on Friday, I'll show it to him and report on his comments.

Nick

See, this is the very reason I tend to bypass conventional wisdom on many occasions. So much for the "don't let your orchids sit in water" axiom. Granted, to pull it off you have to have the light and heat for it, and don't want to do it in the winter for almost anything except phrags but it's not the big bad lurking around the corner that people think it is.

There may be a simple answer to this. Adequate water! A watering system that waters them several times a day will probably produce the same results. I still have several mounted rain forest plants. Mounted with a pad of moss. Never the less, if I only water in the morning, by next morning, with all the air circulation the swamp cooler produces, the moss pads are fairly dry. Not completely dry but certainly not wet. The ones in the trays are sopping wet all the time.

It could be nothing more than adequate water.

Nick

Adequate water - awhile back, someone on this list - maybe one of y'all - said if they watered their mounties twice a day, they got about twice the growth than if they watered once.

I ran a post to that effect and that's what I think is happening. Keeping track of the water level, cleaning out the tray once a month and misting them occasionally is a lot easier than watering them 3 times a day.

Terpguy: You're right on with 'bypassing conventional wisdom'. At this point I'm sure it is beneficial and probably not harmful to water loving plants like the rain forest group and the Bulbos. Now I'm going to do this with plants where it should not work like Cattleyas, Dendrobiums and even one guinea pig Cymbidium. I'm going to try it with a sample of everything I'm growing, if I rot a few bulbs and a few root systems because they simply won't tolerate this, it's not the end of the world. I'll keep a close eye on them to make sure they don't come to real harm. It will take a few months to 1/2 a year to fully evaluate this.

It would be nice to have everyone sit in water as you leave for a trip and not have to worry about them.

Nick

The only thing I would caution on result interpretation is this:

This IS the season for developing new growth. What we are doing IS semi-hydroponics, but in organic media instead of LECA. If you do this for an extended period of time, eventually all this new growth will adapt to the moist environment and the plant will ultimately thrive, just as in S/H. So that can skew the results a bit.

Also, for everyone reading, this will also cause the potting media to break down a helluva lot quicker than usual, so you'll have to keep up with the repotting if you are going to do this.

No bark will be subjected to this. Moss, rock and compressed tree fern will be the only media put in these trays.

I since have observed that after about 4 weeks the standing water gets grungy and I'm now having to clean out some trays as needed. No real problem and actually quite predictable.

Nick

Nick, Will your orchids will tolerate lower pH levels? That will create a bacteriostatic environment which will at least inhibit growth of grungies.

--Stitz--

It's really not a problem, I cleaned about 5 or 6 trays in 10 minutes this morning. The grunge factor may be the limiting consideration for this. Even if Cymbidiums grow better in this, which they probably don't, to have 50 of them sit in trays which have to be kept clean rather than hosing them off with a garden hose and letting things drip to the ground, does not sound appealing.

For species and certain groups of plants it may work well.

Nick

The key to my friends success was to let the trays And plants dry out co
pletely before watering again.

It's been a few weeks now and I carefully looked at every plant this morning. 3 responses were evident:

1) The plant likes it and has multiple new growths with no evidence of damage. All the Bulbos and nearly all the rain forest plants fell into that category and I left them all in water. This constituted the majority of the plants.

2) No damage, but no new growth to speak off. There were a few like that and I took them out of water and returned them to conventional watering.

3) Plant is suffering with some blackened leaves and blackened new growth. There were 2 like that, a Maxillaria and a species, can't think of the name right now. Dusted them with cinnamon and am in the process of drying them out. Hopefully they will make it.

This method is not for all plants but seems to give great results with certain ones. Experimentation and close surveillance is the key to success. The advantage is that plants can be left alone for a few days without watering but there is extra work, as the trays get grunge and all the plants have to be taken out, the trays rinsed and cleaned and then refilled with water every 2 to 3 weeks.

Anyone tried it?

Nick

Like I mentioned before, I don't have problems with the grunginess if I let the tray and plants dry out between waterings. I'd be concerned for rot not letting them approach dryness.

I'm with terpguy.

I use gravel and several very large trays which are kept moist for months at a time without "grunginess". I have more than adequate air movement. The plants' pots are kept in secondary open-air trays which are moved at least weekly.

I usually treat the gravel with 10% chlorine bleach ONCE each year, around October/November.

Ten percent bleach treatment is widely known to destroy many pathogens.

--Stitz--

I've had bulbos on the mind lately, and in googling around came across this thread.

Thought I'd resurrect it because there is a lot of great info and novel growing concepts. I still remember this convo fondly.

I stopped doing it, not because it was not working, but because I got tired cleaning the grungy pans under the pots which seemed a trap for algae and other debris. *I water the mounted ones daily and the potted (in moss) every 2 days. Should be just as good as sitting in a tray of water.

Nick

terp,

I've just started trying a few bulbos, I'm using a coconut husk mix in shallow 'pan' pots currently. I'm using the husks to try and provide/retain more water while trying to maintain my normal watering schedule. I'm usually a bark grower so I water once a week for those and daily for the mounted/bare root ones. So far so good, but no blooms yet as I started with small seedlings to minimize any financial damage if they 'keved... They stay in what I consider to be low phal light, pretty indirect or @ 2' away and to the side of 2 65 watt CFL's and a 90 watt LED setup. In the summer they will go on a shaded east porch, in one of the less-bright areas. I'll adjust the light if need be, but for the last 2-6 months they seem to be doing pretty well with the inside set-up in low phal light.

How about you, how you growing them?

I do grow my phrags sitting in water most of the time, not always but @75% of the time they sit in water filled trays.

Bob

I still use the trays and am not bothered in the least about a little grunge in the water tray. On occasion a sharp stream of water from the hose gets rid of it.

I've also added some Coelogyne, all of my Dendrochilum and some of my Angraecum family to the sitting in water crowd. The Angraecum are in net pots with some kind of stone for the media.

Brooke

Neato Brooke! Which Angraecum?

Bob, I have a spotty history with them. I've tried them mounted, basketed, and potted. This one I spoke about above was in a pot with sphag. It ultimately died, but why I don't recall.

My latest iteration is standard plastic pots (I don't have access to shallow mum pans) with the same fine for bark I use for my paphs/phrags and watered 1) daily during summer and 2) whenever during the winter (it sits under a mounted B. Nodosa on my winter light cart. Gets watered whenever I water the nodosa).

The sole bulbo I have in this setup is probably the best looking plant I have. It hasn't bloomed yet but I suspect I'll get one in the next year/year and a half.

Terp I grow the entire family in a moisture heavy environment. The three Angraecums I grow very shaded on moss covered mounts are luteo alba, distichum and didieri.

The Angraecums I grow in net pots with a rock media in medium light are sesquipedale, longicalcar, rutenbergianum, magdalenae and the primary hybrid Vietchii but it is grown in Catt light.

I grow my Aerangis in the same set up, same light and they are mystacidii, distincta, monticolla, modesta, biloba and citrata.

In the same set up as above I grow Sobennikoffa robusta, Amesiella phillippinense and Jumellea walleri.

I do have four others in that family mounted on tree fern totems because they grow like a bushy shrub and they only get watered daily. They would do better if I watered them twice a day but it ain't happening.

I also grow all of my Catesetum family plants in net pots using sphag/tree fern as the media sitting in trays of water in Catt light. When the dormant season approaches I let the trays dry out and give water as needed until the foliage is dead.

I love the net pots for moisture loving plants because the roots can get air but will also grow their roots down into the water trays.

You and Bob should consider increasing the light on your Bulbos because all of mine grow in Catt. light.

Brooke

Very cool. Mine get upwards of cattleya light during the summer, maybe a tad less (I grow everything on the high end of their requirements). My problem was always inadequate moisture. Mounted and baskets wanted more moisture than I could give. Growing them in pots in fine for bark over the last 2 years or so has help my NOID recover well. It's only a matter of time at this point *happy dance*

Thanks Brooke,

I'll up the indoor light if I can find the room :-( Outdoors is easier as far as increasing light... Looking forward to late spring/early summer when I can move 80% of the stuff outside. Speaking of which: 68 here yesterday afternoon, expecting below 0 tonight. Gotta love this weather...

Bob

This post was edited by westoh on Wed, Mar 12, 14 at 16:20

Brooke, are you growing your Aerangis in Catt light or shaded? I am growing mine in fairly high light along with some Catts and it seems to be doing well. I have 3 spikes going. I have grown them in lower light before and got flowers so I'm a bit confused about the light situation. Mine grow in baskets. I'm thinking I should be watering more as they are bare root with some sphag thrown around.

Jane

Most of mine are grown in medium light. Lots of sun until the afternoon and then deep shade. I'm a firm believer in give an orchid as much light as you can because that translates into lots of blooms.

Brooke

Thanks and I agree. I thought Aer liked shade. Its gettting plenty of light now.

Jane

As I said before, I agree as well. You just have to be careful about magnesium deficiency at those levels. It's when Epsom salts become your best friend.