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Oldies but Goodies.

Posted by orchidnick z9Ca (orchidnick@yahoo.com) on
Sat, Aug 28, 10 at 17:29

I'm at my daughter's place babysitting my grand children and I get to appreciate my blooming hybrid catts which she and her sisters steal without any hesitation.

In her kitchen window she has an incredible display of absolutely beautiful Blcs. They are as spectacular as anything I have seen lately and I'm blown away by the fact that they are ancient dinosaurs left over from a previous age of hybridizing. What we have is:

Blc Nacouchee 'Mission Valley' x Rasberry Parfait 'Sundance'
Blc White Eagle 'Eagle King'
Blc Pamela Hethrington 'Coronation' FCC/AOS

These are all 30 year old or older but to me are just as nice as any of the recent crosses. To see all 3 in one setting with multiple inflorescens is a treat.

Do you have any old treasures?

Nick


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

My Laeliocattleya Sheila Lauterbach 'Equilab' FCC/AOS is now in SERIOUS bud, with the inflorescence protruding from the sheath.

This hybrid was first registered 30 yrs ago; it was awarded the FCC/AOS 10 yrs ago.

I was richly rewarded on Tuesday. I struggled to my volunteer work at the Hillwood Museum in DC to be SURPRISED with several of this hybrid already in flower. :)

AND, to think that it will only be a few days 'til mine is in flower?!

My only regret(s)? I don't yet have several (yet) of this hybrid in bloom, simultaneously like the museum!

OH, my! What a pleasant relief that might be!

--Stitz--


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

I have a few plants that were originated by Jones and Scully. A nursery that used to produce fabulous orchids at fabulous prices and shown off in a fabulous glossy catalogue.

I didn't import them, so do not know if they are mericlones of mericlones or the original mericlones from the nursery.

One example is Tolumnia William Thurston 'Orchidglade' flower quality surpassed by modern hybrids but the plant grows and blooms well so i keep it.


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Arthur,

J & S ? I still have catalogs from the '80s. :)
They make for pleasant wintry reading!!

--Stitz--


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A li'l he'p, please?

Nick,
Blc White Eagle 'Eagle King' ?

I can easily find data on your other referenced plants. More info is needed on this one.

A li'l he'p, please?

--Stitz--


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

I bought it with that name 10 years ago. It has huge well shaped, white, fragrant flowers with a little yellow in the throat. I never researched it so don't have any other info.

Nick


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

One thing that I think would be an interesting thing to do is cross older hybrids with more current ones! It would one, produce interesting varieties, and two, increase the genetic variety, which I think is fairly important.


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

What exactly is it that constitutes an older hybrid vs. a newer hybrid?...beyond the number of years since the original cross I mean.

Tyler


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Old crosses seem to be the norm amongst the Cymbidium entries at Australian orchid shows. It's not unusual to see 20-30+ year old crosses still competing and even taking ribbons. I don't know whether this speaks to the quality of the old crosses or the over reliance of Cymbidium growers on mericlones, though.


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

I'm no expert and I'm sure we'll get a much more scientific explanation, but here is my take. A hybrid has 2 different parents. Every one of the offspring is different as are all the children of a set of human parents different. 2 typical Norwegians are not going to produce a kid that looks like a Watusi, but all their kids, even though sharing basic characteristics, will be different.

An orchid hybridizer, like the famous Stewart of old, will cross a set of parents to give the hoped for characteristic. He will raise as many seedlings as he can to bloom. All share the same name, eg: (Blc XXX x Lc YYY) until one is named. The named one will be the only one with that name but will pass on the name to divisions or clones. The hybridizer will select the best of hundreds of offspring and try to get it awarded. Awarded or not, if it has commercial potential he will have it cloned. Now we have a horse of a different color as now there are thousands of identical plants with identical names. Blc Pamela Hethrington FCC/AOS is such an example. It represents the best of the best from that time frame and all plants with that name today should be identical to the clone made 30 (?) or whatever years ago. A famous clone will pass on into history, the hundreds of siblings from the same cross are forgotten.

This is an ongoing process which is duplicated numerous times every year by many breeders all over the world leading to bigger and better plants. My amazement, which led to this thread, is that in one window of my daughter's house three 30 year old clones were hanging in full, recently opened flowers, splendor. 2 pinks on each side with a white in the middle. To me they looked as good as any recent crosses I have seen.

Only age separates them from recent crosses, nothing else, the process has not changed much. Just like cars, newer crosses should be and no doubt are better than 30 year old ones. But some are timeless and just like a 1957 Chevy 2 door hardtop Bel Air or a Shelby 427 Cobra roadster (the real one, not the knockoffs) will turn heads 40 to 50 years later so will these plants.

Looking at that window was was like entering a parking lot and seeing a 57 T Bird, a 57 Chevy and a Shelby Cobra parked next to each other. Just like these famous cars, often they were not appreciated in their time. In 1966, at age 26, I bought a 427 Shelby Cobra from Shelby's showroom in El Segundo for $6,200. 2 years later, having gotten married and getting ready for our first child, the car was sold like any other used car. I think I got $4,000 for it. It's worth $750,000 today. If I had kept the car and passed on the wife, I would be $2,000,000 ahead today but my wonderful children would not exist. Oh well, you win some and you loose some.

Nick


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Not counting the primary hybrids I have, the three oldest would be Bow Bells from 1945, his son Bob Betts from 1950 and Sapphire from 1968. All are awarded and used fairly heavily in hybridizing.

I prefer Bob Betts to the sire because it is a more compact multiplier. Bow Bells splits into a Y and needs a much bigger pot to contain it.

I much prefer this type hybrid because they retain the classic cattleya shaped bloom. I am not a fan of the big round very flat bloom that is currently in vogue.

Brooke


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

  • Posted by ttkidd Toronto ON (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 29, 10 at 14:49

Nick - Thanks for the great explanation. Basically you're saying that recent crosses are awarded because they're judged to be better than the older plants produced by crossing the same two hybrids or species?

Tyler


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Sorry Tyler you lost me on that one. Just like humans, identical crosses can never be made.

Brooke, Bow Bells was one of my first orchids, I loved it and also was the first one I ever had to discard because of virus. What a heart break that was. I have been looking for a piece of it but have not found it. Would love to trade you for a piece no matter how small

Nick


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

" Just like humans, identical crosses can never be made."

Not that YOU are aware...!

--Stitz--


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Tyler identical crosses can be made but genetically they will be different. An orchid can only be identical if it is cloned.

In judging the parents are taken into consideration for flower quality awards but not for cultural awards.

Nick I will keep you in mind. I won't divide until after this blooming and I don't remember when the new growth appears. It should bloom late fall, early winter.

Brooke


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Great, thanks.

Nick


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

  • Posted by ttkidd Toronto ON (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 29, 10 at 19:43

Sorry...I wasn't being clear. Maybe my terminology was wrong. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the crosses were genetically identical, but rather that the parents were the same. I have a science background, and while I'm not completely ignorant about the genetics of sexual reproduction, I am completely ignorant about how orchid judging works.

What I was trying to clarify was the awarding process, and what criteria are used to judge the plant. For example, say Phal equestris and Phal gigantea were crossed thirty-some years ago and one of the resulting plants was awarded. If someone today were to do another cross of Phal equestris and Phal gigantea, would the previously awarded plant be taken into consideration when judging the new one? Does the new plant have to be judged better than the old one?

I'm just trying to get it straight in my head why newer hybrids should be better than older hybrids. The car analogy is a little flawed...you said the processes in orchid hybridization have not changed, yet the processes in building a car have definitely changed. We have better cars today because materials sciences, engineering processes and manufacturing processes have improved. If hybridization processes haven't changed then what is it that makes modern hybrids superior to old ones? Or is it just awarded hybrids that are superior because the award status of the older cross is taken into account.

Sorry for dragging this conversation a little off topic.

Tyler


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Is it my imagination? or are the newer Catts, not as fragrant as the older ones .
I had Blc. Mem. Crispin Rosales long time ago very fragrant , Bought a new one a couple of years ago it does not have the scent my old one had ..


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Ginge, similar with roses where they had to go back to the old fashioned types to bring the perfume back into the modern rose.

I have a large Standard Cat in bloom at the moment (Blc.Kesthin's Esther) and it has almost no perfume.


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

It is a let down for me especially on a first time bloomer a big floofy bloom with no scent that is just not right,same as a rose without scent :( ..


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

The collection I maintain in Sonoma has several old hybrids. This one is Cattleya Drumbeat, registered to Stewart in 1967. It could be one named 'Minerva Burr', I am still trying to decide that. I don't know if this was a selected seed produced plant or a re-make by Sea God Nursery. Very nice shape, size and color.

In my own collection I have Laelia anceps 'Boulder Valley' HCC/AOS. This plant is a division of the plant exhibited by Pat Trumble, Boulder, CO. and awarded the HCC by the AOS in 1983.


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Blc Nacouchee 'Mission Valley' AM/AOS and Blc George King 'Serendepity' just opened. I got both in the precious century and they have been faithful bloomers. I think I will make divisions of the plants in case, heaven forbid, they should catch a virus. I would not want to be without them, some of them are like the Swallows that come back to Capistrano. Fall would not be complete without them blooming.

Nick


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RE: Oldies.

That first one actually is Blc Nacouchee 'Mission Valley' x Blc Raspberry Parfait 'Sundance' and is one of my all time favorites. It's one of the first orchids I bought and has stayed near the head of the class ever since.

Nick


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RE: Oldies but Goodies.

Nick, the Nacouchee x Raspberry Parfait was registered several years ago as Blc Annick Mello -- if you are in a tag-changing mood. Sometimes I am, and sometimes I am not.


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