"Spud Farmers" is pretty bad when referring to Australian Native Terrestrial Orchid growers, Dirt Plants is worse, how about orchids growing in Terrestrial mix?

Just wondering if some of the old time additions to orchid mixes might assist. First and foremost are composted English Oak Leaves and perhaps dried up crushed bracken fern leaves , that is assuming bracken fern here is the same as bracken fern there.

The spud growers have recipes calling for dried up Casuarina Tree needles to be sprinkled on the potting surface.

Not much help seeing Casuarina needles are probably as scarce as hen's teeth
over there.

There is specific reference made to the mulch of the Red Pine which has the fungus with which the tree enjoys a symbiotic relationship. The orchid is a freeloader taking from the fungus but giving nothing. Some of them don't even bother growing chlorophyll relying totally on the fungus for nutrients.

This tree is found around the Great Lakes, there are none in California. Closest I can get is the local pine, I will try some mulch from one.

Spud farmers is a good one, I think I'll use it, actually know some people who grow Pterostylis, Pleiones and Habenarias. A couple actually look what I expect a spud farmer to look like.

Nick

Nick, the use of fungal symbiosis by orchids is restricted to the young orchid embryos as adult plants do not need the relationship once they have leaves.
Here is a link to a store in Escondido where they had 5 Epipactis giganteum for sale. This plants likes it wet but needs well draining mix. Prob. repot every 2 yrs. Feed with every watering when in active growth.

Here is a link that might be useful: Las Pilitas

Thanks for the lead on the Epipactis. On the fungal issue, what you say is true for 100% of the non-terrestrial orchids and probably also true for a majority of terrestrials. There are however numerous exceptions. Cephalanthera austiniae, the Phantom orchids, is the extreme example.

http://www.wanativeorchids.com/Cephalanthera%20austiniae/index.html

It is the only one in North America that does not produce chlorophyll. In Australia there is a subterranean one that never even bothers to break ground. I'm sure Arthur has a large collection of that beauty. These 2 are extreme examples and since they are not found in cultivation they are only of academic interest.

Of practical interest are several of the terrestrials from the slopes of the Himalayas who live in forest mulch and do have the need for certain organism to thrive. In cultivation, unless they find something to their liking, they will either not initiate (from seed) or have a short life span (from a tuber). Makes sense to avoid these if they can be identified.

Our January speaker is Dr Holger Perner who is being flown in from China to talk at the Paph Guild in Santa Barbara. We were able to snag him to speak to us on the orchids of China. His main focus in orchid studies: Cypripedioideae (slipper orchids), since 1993 regular field studies in the United States, Canada, Russia and China. This is a quote from his bio.

I'm sure he'll be most helpful in answering my questions, I'm just jumping the gun to see if anyone has tried these.

Nick

Once you start delving into terrestrial orchids, you enter a parallel universe. There are forums, societies, seed banks, information (encyclopidia) sites and who knows what else devoted entirely to terrestrials.

Here is a list of 200 plus genuses and a bunch of species.

238 Genera

Aa, Acanthephippium, Aceratorchis, Acianthus, Acrolophia, Adenochilus, Altensteinia, Amerorchis, Amitostigma, Anacamptis, Androcorys, Anguloa, Anochilus, Anoectochilus, Aplectrum, Aporostylis, Apostasia, Arethusa, Arnottia, Arpophyllum, Arthrochilus, Arundina, Aspidogyne, Auxopus, Barlia, Bartholina, Baskervilla, Beloglottis, Benthamia, Bipinnula, Bletia, Bletilla, Bonatea, Brachycorythis, Brachystele, Braemia, Bromheadia, Brownleea, Burnettia, Caladenia, Calanthe, Caleana, Calochilus, Calopogon, Calypso, Centrostigma, Cephalanthera, Cephalantheropsis, Ceratandra, Chamaegastrodia, Chamorchis, Changnienia, Cheirostylis, Chiloglottis, Chloraea, Chrysoglossum, Claderia, Cleistes, Coeloglossum, Collabium, Comperia, Corunastylis, Corybas, Corycium, Corymborkis, Cranichis, Cremastra, Cryptostylis, Cyanaeorchis, Cyanicula, Cyclopogon, Cycnoches, Cynorkis, Cypripedium, Cyrtidiorchis, Cyrtochilum, Cyrtosia, Cyrtostylis, Cystorchis, Dactylorhiza, Dactylostalix, Dichromanthus, Didymoplexiella, Didymoplexis, Diglyphosa, Dilochia, Diphylax, Diplomeris, Dipodium, Disa, Discyphus, Disperis, Diuris, Dossinia, Duckeella, Eltroplectris, Elythranthera, Ephippianthus, Epiblema, Epipactis, Epistephium, Ericksonella, Eriochilus, Erythrodes, Eulophia, Eulophiella, Eurycentrum, Evota, Galearis, Galeola, Gastrodia, Gavilea, Gennaria, Geoblasta, Geodorum, Glomera, Gomphichis, Goodyera, Govenia, Graphorkis, Gymnadenia, Habenaria, Hammarbya, Hemipilia, Herminium, Herpysma, Herschelianthe, Hetaeria, Himantoglossum, Holothrix, Houlletia, Huttonaea, Hylophila, Ipsea, Ischnogyne, Isotria, Kuhlhasseltia, Lepidogyne, Leporella, Ligeophila, Limodorum, Liparis, Listera, Ludisia, Lyroglossa, Macodes, Malaxis, Manniella, Megastylis, Mesadenus, Microtis, Mischobulbum, Monophyllorchis, Myrmechis, Myrosmodes, Neobolusia, Neotinea, Neottia, Neottianthe, Nephelaphyllum, Neuwiedia, Nigritella, Ocampoa, Odontochilus, Odontorrhynchus, Oeceoclades, Ophrys, Orchipedum, Orchis, Orthoceras, Pachites, Pachystoma, Palmorchis, Paracaleana, Paradisanthus, Pecteilis, Phaius, Phragmipedium, Piperia, Platanthera, Platycoryne, Platylepis, Platythelys, Pleione, Pogonia, Ponerorchis, Ponthieva, Porphyrostachys, Potosia, Prasophyllum, Prescottia, Pristiglottis, Pseuderia, Pseudorchis, Psilochilus, Pterichis, Pteroglossa, Pteroglossaspis, Pterostylis, Pterygodium, Pyrorchis, Rhizanthella, Rhomboda, Sacoila, Sarcoglottis, Satyrium, Sauroglossum, Schiedeella, Schizochilus, Schwartzkopffia, Selenipedium, Senghasiella, Serapias, Sertifera, Sobralia, Spathoglottis, Spiculaea, Spiranthes, Stenoglottis, Stereosandra, Steveniella, Stigmatodactylus, Tainia, Tetramicra, Thelymitra, Thelyschista, Thulinia, Thunia, Thynninorchis, Triphora, Tropidia, Veyretia, Vrydagzynea, Waireia, Warrea, Wullschlaegelia, Yoania, Zeuxine
32 species

Coelia bella, Coelia macrostachya, Coelogyne papillosa, Cryptopus elatus, Cymbidiella flabellata, Cymbidium cyperifolium, Cymbidium defoliatum, Cymbidium ensifolium, Cymbidium faberi, Cymbidium goeringii, Cymbidium insigne, Cymbidium kanran, Cymbidium lancifolium, Cymbidium macrorhizon, Cymbidium micranthum, Cymbidium multiradicatum, Cymbidium nanulum, Cymbidium qiubeiense, Cymbidium rhizomatosum, Cymbidium sinense, Cymbidium suavissimum, Cymbidium teretipetiolatum, Masdevallia davisii, Masdevallia ignea, Masdevallia veitchiana, Oreorchis foliosa var. indica, Otostylis brachystalix, Otostylis lepida, Phalaenopsis buyssoniana, Phalaenopsis pulcherrima, Phalaenopsis regnieriana, Polystachya songaniensis.

There is a site in Hungary that trades seeds from all over the world! Interesting, all are orchids yet none of them look like a floofy BLC.

Nick

The parallel universe in Australia are the Orchid Societies devoted entirely to growing Australian Native orchids. Sadly i do not belong to one so i cannot give any culture hints.

Here are a few pics of orchids belonging to Nick's list above.
Genera; Caleana, Calochilus and Cryptostylis.

{{gwi:208109}}

{{gwi:208111}}

{{gwi:208113}}

Some of these orchids grow in poor sandstone country around Sydney and probably need an appropriate fungus growing near their roots to help in obtaining nourishment.

Now you are upsetting the floofy Blc. growers. I've given up on those too. If you have to put corsets on an orchid to get it to a show it is not worth growing.

Thanks for the photos, Arthur, they have a beauty of their own. Subtle, low key but when there is a colony of them and one sees 10 plus of them in bloom, it can be attractive.

Have been looking at the Epicactis gigantea and watched the availability drop from 5 plants to 2. Finally took the plunge, now there is only one left. It's in full dormancy right now, you get a pot full of dirt with some dry tufts sticking out. Exiting, certainly not like a 8" Lc or Blc with flowers so big and heavy they have to be supported or they'll flop over but I'm not complaining, thanks for the lead.

Nick

Just got a bunch of bulbs and right away a dilemna. 2 had green leaves starting, no problem there, they got potted up. Several of the others had 2" plus new shoots emerging. With shoots that long, do they still go in the fridge for another month? I potted the longest ones including some where the tip is turning green and put the rest in the fridge. This summer and fall should be interesting, stuff never before seen around here should emerge if they survive and bloom.

I'm going north to Redding tomorrow and will bring a few 5 gallon buckets of pine mulch from up there. Since these plants grow in alpine meadows, that's as close as I can get to pleasing them. There is an outfit in Germany called 'Gartenversand Omega' which makes a specifically formulated mix called 'NeudoHum OrchideenErde' which the terrestrial nuts rave about on their forums. Produces tubers twice the size of what they have seen before. Apparently it includes microfungi which have been introduced on purpose and goes along with what I've learned. It is possible to have it shipped to the US, just need to find out the cost.

The 2 most senior silverbacks in our society each have a large collection of floofy cats. One of them threatened to bring a spray can of Round Up to the meeting if I bring these weeds in. Going to need Secret Service protection for these beauties!

Nick

Oh good Lord Nick you make me cry!!!! ginnibug

I have that effect on women, born with it, probably a mutation.

Nick

I'm getting closer. Talked to someone with specific knowledge about these things today and came away with useful information. I was just getting ready to leave for a coniferous forest to collect mulch. He stopped me stating that the pine needle mulch is too acidic and will kill the fungus the plants depend upon. Suggested leafy mulch, California Oak for example as being preferable. Also gaveme leads on how to buy the fungus.

The one closest to home is a big Ag business called 'Orange County Agricultural Supplies'. They sell a mixture of many microfungi which you then add and mix into your soil. Each plant has a preferred microorganism but trying to duplicate this is impossible. When transplanting them from the alpine forests of the Himalayas to a pot full of Ca Oak mulch, the best one can do is to offer them a brew of many different microfungi. If there is one in the mix they like, the plant will thrive, if not then it won't. It's as simple as that, it feels like I'm throwing a pile of stuff against the wall to see if any of it will stick.

Nick

This is a weird threat as I'm mostly talking to myself. I hope some one has interest in these plants.

The person I talked about in the previous post has a masters in agriculture and has been growing orchids all his life. He however has never grown these plants and was giving me book knowledge. Yesterday I talked to CARSON WHITLOW, the webmaster of the Orchid Mall who has 30 years experience growing terrestrial orchids. He has hybridized them and gives lectures on them and has an extensive collection. From him I got a totally different perspective.

I related to him what I had learned about these plants and the fact that I had just obtained three 5 gallon buckets of Ca Oak mulch full of mycelia and rich in nutrients. I told him I was planning to seed it with the bought Microfungi I mentioned above.

He stated that I correctly voiced the book knowledge. That's exactly what's recommended however he advised against it. In his experience it does more harm than good. The bulbs come from the meadows of the Himalayas and are used to certain microorganisms. Duplicating that is impossible. I would thrust them head on with a multitude of organisms from the mulch plus the bought microfugi. They are not used to any of these and would probably encounter more pathogens than beneficial types. What he and others do, is to make the mix as one sees fit using mulch, crushed oyster shell, bone meal, peat moss, perlite etc and then sterilize the finished product by heating it in the oven to 250F for 30 minutes. He feels that adult, well establish bulbs do not need the relationship with the fungi I have been harping about and he claims that his results have been far superior using a sterile potting mix which then gets inoculated with the resident organisms of the greenhouse giving the bulb time to adapt. He strongly recommended doing that with these Chinese bulbs.

I think I will follow his advice, get the ingredients together and heat the final mix this weekend. He also feels that once a bulb shows a robust sprout, vernalization is probably complete and the bulb should be allowed to grow.

This has been quite a trip, wish me luck with these babies.

Nick

Nick,

I/we enjoy your ramblings, keep it up dirt cooker ;-)
Not my 'cup of tea' currently, but I find the thread and your experimenting interesting.

Bob

There's nothing wrong with talking to yourself. You have lurkers. msflintlock

The beat goes on but this will probably be the last installment. I cooked the mix and planted the bulbs on Friday. Today at the Species Study Group in San Diego one of the members who is big into native California plants, completed the circle.

Plant them in sterile stuff. This avoids pathogens to the new bulbs. Once the plant is in robust growth (using stored energy from last year) then hit it with everything including the kitchen sink. Add mulch which has not been sterilized, add the microfungal supplement, add steer manure, bat guano etc. By then the plant should be able to handle it. Most people successfully grow these things the first year but only get a repeat performance the following year if the plant hooks up with a favorable organism.

It's like being on a first date, will there be a second one? There is nothing further to do but wait to see what they'll do, I'll keep you posted.

Nick

Bump.

I have since then had a lengthy discussion with Dr Holger Perner, PhD in botany who has done extensive research in Russia and China on Cepripediums and other terrestrials. He had a completely different take on this. According to him, very few of these plants are dependent on a specific microfungus which is so important according to the literature. He said 'Plant them in a well draining mulch, give them water and fertilizer and keep them cool.' The plants are very sensitive to exact conditions related to their habitat altitude and will not tolerate much variation. A little too cold they die, a little to warm, they die. He plays a leading role in a Chinese national park which has elevation from 8,000' to 16,00'. Some of the plants come from a 8 to 10,000' foot range and require a different temp than plants from 12,000'.

Accommodating them is obviously impossible so the suggestion is to throw a bunch against the wall and see how many will stick. He looked over my list and pointed out the variation of altitude where they came from. He thinks I might have a chance of 75% success the first year, down to 50% the second year. What ever returns the third year will be here to stay.

He feels that since there is such a high mortality rate even amongst experience growers, the microfungus is a convenient scape goat. He advised me to keep a log of what lives and what dies and don't repeat the failures. An altitude range might become apparent amongst the successful plants and that's the range my specific greenhouse offers, the logical conclusion then is to get more from that altitude.

Nick

Hi all;

would anybody have suggestions about care of Ludisiana? I have potfull (12" hanging basket-full now, but started with 1 stem about 3.5yrs ago). Recently had an accident - fell & most of the soil got spilled. No panic, I picked up broken pieces & put in a bottle with water (?!) & just about all of them have roots now. I guess I should do more research on net, but reading posts on GW forums I see there is so much knowledge available...I am learning a lot from reading here, and greatly appreciate anybody taking time to post. Hope one day will know more & can 'pay forward'...
Thank you
Rina
{{gwi:208115}}From my Ludisia

Today I finally got my shipment from Fraser's Thimble Farm. Spent the good part of the afternoon mixing mulch, bonemeal, perlite and what have you. Planted them all and now I know what a spud farmer feels like. My fingernails are black and I have dirt all over my potting bench.

That's a good term, Arthur.

Nick

Rina, I hope you found the info. on Ludisia discolor. Had mine for ages before i bumped it off because i think it got too much light in my glass-house.

Not my term Nick but so apt as is weed farmers for Cymbidium Growers around these parts.

I was down to one (Cymbidium) before i got stuck with nine raffle plants to mind and then the 5 inch deluge in one day arrived and one of the beastly things has died. Drats!

Nick, just read this thread. Fascinating & gorgeous blooms.

Would these be called terrestrial orchids?

Hab medusae, Hab radiata, and a Phaius have done well here in a "terrestrial orchid mix" from Orchids Ltd. Probably widely available.

However, the orchids you're talking about seem a bit pickier.

Along w/ the plants, could you also get some mulch from the vendor? Maybe regulations prohibit it.

And yes, your hands get dirty. :)

Glad you're thinking out loud.

Nick, I read all of this with great interest. As you know, I'm into terrestrials and now I would love to know how the ones you had back in 2012 are doing?

Carol in Jacksonville

Pleiones, Habeneria, Calanthe, Pterostylus, Calopogans and a few other US native terrestrials are doing fine. The ones from China, Cephalathera, Orchis (Chususa), Oreorchis, Amitostigma, Peristylus, Neothianthe, Herminium, Gymnadenia all did uniformly bad. I still have a few of them but they are lingering, barely alive. Last year I got a few from Europe, alpine terrestrials they call them, 50% success rate only. Biggest success story is the Cypripedium experience. After getting the hang of them, I'm doing well with them. I posted a number of them on the 'Gallery forum'.

Nick

On a wild impulse, I purchased Phcal. Kryptonite “Ursula” last year. It hasn't done a whole lot but then, it didn't decline either. It is still happily napping. Do you have any experience with Phaiocalanthe (Phcal)? The only ones of which I know are Kryptonite, 'Ursula' and 'Chariots of Fire'. Ever had any of those?

Carol

I purchased Phcal. Kryptonite “Ursula” last year. It hasn't done a whole lot but then, it didn't decline either. It is still happily napping.

Identical experience except I got 'Chariots of Fire'.

Nick

You probably outbid me.

Nick, don't feel weird about your posts. As a new orchid grower I have learned more from reading everything you write (great writing style by the way) than from all the orchid natural history books, articles and internet sources. Please dont stop

Nick, I know this is an old post, but I was wonder, if you are located in the US, if you know, where I can get legally Cephalanthera austinae seed. I am testing experiments of myco-heterotroph orchid germination with their symbiont, for research for a French project between mycoheterotroph-mycorrhizae-hosttree.
Till now I could test on European and Asian myco-heterotroph orchids. I am waiting seed from Corallorhiza and Hexalectris. But Cephelanthera austinae would make the picture for the Northern America's complete. It does not have to be much.