Hi Termater,

Interesting thread. I also was surprised by the reference to DEET on the mosquito thread. The whole reason I posted to the Organic forum was to get recommendations OTHER than DEET.

No, I don't buy regular toothpaste or deoderants or shampoo or handcream.

No, we don't buy non organic meat or cheese or eggs that aren't free range.

Don't go to drive throughs or drink coke or other tonics. We put a little juice in glass with soda water if we want something like that. We don't drink that much either.

Has been many years since I ate at a McDonald's. Have switched to ground Buffalo for hamburgers.

Have been managing our small 1/4 acre yard and almost always grow vegetables every year, without using any chemicals in any form, other than an occassional dishwashing squirt with garlic in a spray bottle. And no chemical fertilizers.

We have been supporting organic and sustainable farming by spending a fortune at Whole Foods since before there was a Whole Foods and we were then going to Cambridge to the health food stores there.

This year, it was doubtful that we were going to be able to raise enough vegetables in the yard, and we enrolled in an organic farm CSA in our state to get organic produce every week because Whole Foods doesn't always have enough organic produce.

No we're not perfect, but we are doing our best.

Adam

I am an abject failure as an organic humanoid although I might be purer as an organic market farmer.

Our fenced-in backyard lawn and garden are 100% organic when it comes to fertilizer, weed and insect control since our daughter plays back there. Our front yard is almost entirely organic but I had to lay down some fireant bait since they were getting out of control. (Check out our memberpage to see some of the products we use.)

We do enjoy range-free eggs though. However, I believe that just because the foods we eat are not 100% organic doesn't necessarily make it bad or sub-par.

-Todd

Sprite When it is on sale, McDee's when an Ice tea or Chkn nuggts are on sale. I usually ignore the swarm of moskito's, they don't take much!, but I use deet when really ticked off. my personal garden is 100% chemical free, and it always will be. organically grown food tastes and is much better in all ways. but I am small buget, so I only get organically grown foods, when I grow them.

I'm getting there. My philosophy on making lifestyle changes is you have to take it slow; if you try to change everything all at once, you're setting yourself up for failure due to being overwhelmed with everything being different. At least, that's how things work for me. I grew up eating fast food, preprocessed food, etc. To try and rip all that out from under myself all at once I think would be too big of an adjustment. It takes time to learn how to coordinate the extra trouble it takes along with the everyday things like working full time, taking care of kids, etc. I.e., even just finding sources for this stuff and coordinating trips to those places (which are invariably inconvenient) takes time and energy until you get it worked out as part of your daily/weekly/monthly routine.

I'm using up my last tube of regular toothpaste; have some sort of natural stuff waiting.

Same with soaps/shampoos...using up the last of the regular stuff and switching to Castile soaps.

Similar story with laundry detergent.

Haven't used deodorant with aluminum for years. Use that crystal stick stuff.

I use cloth diapers on my kids, and wash with biodegradable soap (that "Soapworks" stuff in the purple box).

Introducing more organic fruits/veggies into the diet. Organic meat is harder, because it's harder to find (and afford!). Also just getting the stuff is more difficult (have to go to multiple stores to get everything as opposed to one stop shopping at the regular grocery). That said, if there is an organic alternative I will generally take it (aside from rare instances where the organic option just didn't look good, e.g., bad batch of strawberries or whatever). Just this weekend I wrote up some meal plans, as having plans will facilitate fewer shopping trips for non-perishables, and therefore the ability to shop the farmer's market for organic produce once a week (since I don't have to do the "other" groceries once a week).

I buy cheese and milk that comes from cows that have not been given hormones. I know a lot would argue that dairy should be cut out altogether. I may get there some day; right now the task of figuring out how to cut out/replace dairy is too overwhelming. I do not consider cheese and milk substitutes an option (I've tried them); rather, I will have to adjust my diet to just not need those things. Since I use dairy/milk just about every day, I am at a loss as to how to do this. I consider using the hormone-free stuff a happy medium for now.

Am just starting my first vegetable garden this year. My soil is horrible, so I'm a little daunted. I have herbs and a pepper plant now, along with tomato seeds I planted this weekend to prepare for a fall crop. I consider these an experiment with my yard to see what grows good where (i.e., where they can get enough sun without burning to a crisp in this blast furnace we call Phoenix, AZ). Once it cools off and I can stand to be outside for any length of time, I'm going to till the soil and add some amendments (still learning what) to get it ready for planting in the spring. I'm hoping to have a number of veggies; at the same time, I don't want to do too much too fast and get overwhelmed by the whole thing.

I've never used pesticides or weed killers. I'd rather live with the bugs/weeds! I did get the number for a local pest control that is supposed to use "natural" products, although I haven't yet called them to find out what "natural" is. I know with the gardening it will be more of an issue, because "living with them" may equate to "no crops", so I've got to learn something more proactive.

I hate any fast food burgers, so that's not an issue. I prefer my own burgers :). I do have a horrible addiction to Popeye's chicken and their red beans & rice, and have been unable to duplicate their recipes at home.

I probably drink one soda a month, and that's usually if I'm at a restaurant where the water and tea taste really bad. I drink about a half gallon of tea a day; it's probably not organic, I don't even know where to get organic tea (and I'm picky about tea, which doesn't help: http://www.specialteas.com). DH keeps Coca Cola in business. I wish I could change that, but he's a grown man and I can't tell him what to do (even though I have tried, LOL).

That's about it. I consider myself a newbie to the whole organic/natural living thing, but I guess I'm doing more than I thought I was!

Organic Living People.
Their commitment to organic living is tied to a deep understanding of the state of the world and to their wish to improve the present and leave a good future for unborn generations. They respect and honor the planet. They are honest about recognizing the need to improve not only their own lots but those of others. They promote health, love, happiness, community, and education. They are willing to lead by the example of their own lives. They support organic and sustainable farming. They also tread lighter and minimize negative impact.

Does that mean that people who drink Cokes or use Mennen Speed Stick don't care about the present or about their children's future? That people who eat non-organic Parmigiano-Reggiano on their organic spaghetti couldn't care less about anybody else as long as they've got theirs? That people who think an order of McDonald's fries every now and then isn't a catastrophe promote sickness, hate, anomie, and ignorance? That people who pick their own strawberries at local but non-organic farms don't support sustainable farming?

I, personally, me, Alfie, like to think that the world would be a better place if everybody lived the way I happen to want to live.

But I don't find, in my experience at least, that I make a lot of converts to my way of thinking when I present it like that.

Most people want to make the world a better place, regardless of what products they buy.

We try, but we've decided we can't do everything. We have a farm, and I won't use chemicals or fertilizers in the garden. I did just buy loam for my raised beds because I couldn't find organic.

I won't use pressure treated wood even for horse fencing. However, sometimes we have to have it for a building project (sills, etc.) by code.

We have a toddler and started him in cloth diapers, but he was too heavy a wetter, it was interfering with his naps. So we spend a ton of $$$ on Seventh Generation brand disposable diapers, which is a nice compromise for us.

Our son ate organic everything (except formula) for about the first year of life, but is now in daycare and has to eat normal food. He drinks organic milk and eats organic 100% whole wheat bread, but the rest is up to the provider. It's a struggle just to find daycare that understands my desire to raise him on whole grains and non-preservative type foods, much less trying to ask them to buy organic foods.

I started him in organic clothing but talk about expensive! I opt now for only natural fabrics (100% cotton) and just wash the heck out of them. I did make his futon mattress out of organic cotton batting & fabric + local wool.

We try to buy organic produce when possible, but we are 45 minutes from a grocery store, much less a co-op or natural foods store, and it's really difficult most of the year. I've decided that eating veggies & fruits is more important for our health than avoiding them because I can't find organic versions. When there are organic alternatives and they look good and aren't ridiculously expensive, we choose them (Stonyfield Farm yogurt, for example).

We don't use chemicals in our home.

We do eat out and go through drive-throughs a lot - that's life when you're always in the car.

We patronize the grocery stores with an extensive natural foods section.

We can't do it all, but I believe we are making our dent :-)

Yeah, that's a good point...just because you don't do everything doesn't mean that the things you *are* doing don't help. I look at it this way: I'd rather have 100% of people doing 25% of the things they could possibly be doing to help the earth/environment than 5% of the people doing everything and the other 95% doing nothing because they got the idea that it is an all or nothing prospect.

Basically I'm frugal and lean heavily toward organic products. My garden is organic, the only thing I use besides homemade compost is liquid kelp and Sluggo. I buy almost all organic or locally grown food (year-round farmers' markets), though occasionally I still buy in-season fruits and vegetables that are on sale at the local market. And all the vegan prepared foods seem to be organic (have been veg for 30 years). I've been buying bath soap, toothpaste, deodorants, and shampoo at health-food stores for decades, but not toilet paper or dish or laundry detergent (whatever's cheapest and has the fewest additives). I don't use drive-thrus, drink sodas, or eat "fast food."

All the books I buy are no doubt made from nonsustainably harvested trees, and I've never bought organic-cotton clothing (but clothes and other stuff mostly come from thrift stores and rummage sales). (Doesn't cotton use the most pesticides of any crop grown in the U.S.? Has anyone done studies on pesticide residues in clothing?) I do have a car and computer, but I use them for many years.

The big-picture things at the top of most lists of "best things to do for the environment" involve using fewer resources on an everyday level: driving less (or not owning a car), eating lower on the food chain, having fewer children, living in a smaller house, buying fewer consumables, recycling and composting. (I don't have a reference handy, but every so often a list of "10 best things you can do for the environment" comes along.) I think this can be boiled down to living lightly (fewer inputs, awareness of where things come from and what effects they have on the wider world) and waste consciousness (fewer outputs, waste equals food, no "away"). I think it's a continuum, not a list of absolutes, and I see living lightly as a problem-solving opportunity and a chance to be creative.

Individuals can do a lot, but part of the big picture is that groups (businesses, government, etc.) use more resources and create a lot more waste. In my town, for example, the study group on zero waste that was looking into municipal composting of food wastes found out that three-quarters of the food waste comes from businesses, only a quarter from residences (in a town of about 60K).

I have a tendency to get obsessive and distracted by lists and counting and stuff like that, and at one time all these lifestyle choices threatened to take up 100% of my brain cells. So now I try to keep my ship pointed in the right direction all the time, keep a sense of proportion (choices with big impacts are more important than occasional detours from the path), and --- always --- remember that there are people out there with completely valid lives that do not resemble mine in any way.

Best,
Martha --- whose most recent project is trying, every day, to do something along the lines of cleaning up after somebody else and not saying anything about it.

i try and fail. organic is jsut not a lifestyle where i live. the products just aren't there, except a few at the grocery store. as far as garden products, non-existent in my area. add the expense to that, although worth it, the average person goes for the less expensive product on the shelf. with pets, i have to give and take. to get adequate nutrition, i have to purchase products i would not want them ingesting. please, no one berate me for not doing raw diet. after all, i go to arbee's myself. people take their kids. mcD's is just too outrageous.

green cotton? i can't even find it anymore. i find organically grown, but not "green". has terminology changed? then you have other family members working against you, besides the business owners.

I try my best to live an organic lifestyle. My garden and yard are completely organic. However there are some things I cannot risk doing organicaly, such as using mosquito repellant on my horse. West Nile Virus is just too dangerous a threat. My neighbor lost three horses to it last year. I do everything I can organically, as long as it's not unsafe.

I don't eat meat or dairy, and I eat only my own vegetables or ones purchased from local organic farmers.

Fairy_toadmother, I think green cotton was conventionally grown cotton that wasn't subjected to bleach and finishing treatments. Maybe it's just being phased out?

I dont' feel comfortable with the term "lifestyle". It sounds like a fad that has no real basis other than to be fashionable. That said, I've always gardened organically and don't use the types of products listed. We're very lucky to have abundant food co-ops and a couple of Whole Foods as well. The oldest co-op is @ 30 years. We've been shopping there for over 20, so have had access to alternatives for long time. It has only been since the early or mid '90's that a wider variety of choices for things like laundry detergents and so on have been available. Before orgainc food became widely available, the alternative to fresh, organic out of season was co-op brand canned or frozen. Our food purchases are probably 95% organic, sometimes just free-range for things like chicken or beef. I got some kohlrabi at the neighborhood farmers market this morning that isn't organic, but locally grown by a very nice woman.

"Their commitment to organic living is tied to a deep understanding of the state of the world and to their wish to improve the present and leave a good future for unborn generations."

Termater, could you explain what you mean by a deep understanding of the state of the world? I feel I don't have such an understanding at all.

I'm w/ habitat - frugality, simplicity and vegetarianism goes a long way toward "doing the least harm" possible, which should be the goal

consumerism is the main problem in our culture - gotta have it all, gotta have the latest, gotta have those 'comfort foods', gotta have it now, pack the old stuff in plastic and put it by the road, outta sight outta mind

Poledra - "I do have a horrible addiction to Popeye's chicken and their red beans & rice, and have been unable to duplicate their recipes at home" - you need to add more salt, sugar, and msg - 3 things I eliminated from my life long ago, but which are the main flavor ingredients in all 'fast food' and most processed foods

Bill - who misses Mexican food most about Phoenix, but makes his own now and enjoys it!

I like PoledraDog's point. Often changes for the better start with a.......well a little start. Then these things can be expanded on.
I don't do the pop. I use crystal rock [hope it is working well!!]. I use a natural toothpaste with xylitol. Am now eating a neighbor's eggs. I grow a lot of fruit and veggies. My garden is enriched with good things, but I am not interested in being gung ho organic. My yard is chem free though.

In essence, I want to be healthy so I fortify my body with supplements and nutrients...I don't like the medical way of chems for everything, but believe in building health from the inside out.

Poledra - "I do have a horrible addiction to Popeye's chicken and their red beans & rice, and have been unable to duplicate their recipes at home" - you need to add more salt, sugar, and msg - 3 things I eliminated from my life long ago, but which are the main flavor ingredients in all 'fast food' and most processed foods

Bill - who misses Mexican food most about Phoenix, but makes his own now and enjoys it!

Alas, you're probably right, Bill, that and a professional fryer (something I don't exactly need to be investing in, as to make it worth the money I'd have to use it frequently).

Funny you should say that about the Mexican food...I moved here from my home state of Texas 10 years ago, and I soooo miss the Tex-Mex. But, the Mexican food here is good, just different; I have been to areas that I couldn't say the same about (which I won't mention, lest I offend someone :) ).

-Lisa

To tread as lightly as possible - do the least harm - one must eat only plant products. To talk of having the lightest possible impact on the planet while scarfing red meat is absurd. To talk of it while enjoying the benefits of burning fossil fuel is equal nonsense. We do what we do cuz we feel like it. We draw arbitrary lines in our ideologies cuz we like to eat steak, or cheese, or because we would rather not walk miles to the store or tote water on our shoulders.....toothpaste - give me a break. If the planet were the most important thing in our lives we'd scrub our teeth with a little branch and some sand.

In all honesty absolutely not. I am only here to learn alternative methods of treating garden problems. But I do have a problem with some of the tones I get from this forum, sort of a holier then thou. Such as suggesting that people who eat at McDonalds or drink soda are hurting the planet, all while typing away on a computer that is connected to the WWW. Using electricity that we take for granted that is made by burning coal, or other methods that disrupt the entire eco system. I have no problem with people who are entirely devoted to doing what they want to improve their lives, health or planet. But I do have a problem with the preachy nature of the half believers.

To state it a better way,... Absolutely not.

I use regular toothpaste, good 'ol aluminum laden deodorant, I eat lots of non-organic meats and cheeses and I even suck down a Coke once in a while.

But I am organic in the definition of this forum's title, Organic Gardening.

Life is balance and moderation in the end. Calls for organic purism and for rejecting all or most of the elements of modern civilization are just impractical and off-putting for those not in geographic, economic, or social positions to act in this rather elitist way.

I grow most of my vegetables at the farm but if I'm short carrots, I am not going to walk 11 miles to the farm to get a half dozen (or drive for that matter.) I will go the the nearest supermarket carrying organic carrots that I know from experience are grown by huge corporations and with massive machinery and cheap labor.

When preparing this message I didn't prep a piece of paper bark, cut open a vein for ink, and then hand carry this posting to each of you. I used my computer system, large parts of which were made in other countries and shipped to the States.

Sorry if I appear to be a bit over the edge this morning.

I know of many people who would like to use more natural foods and such, but can't because they don't have the money for it. There's a big price for anything labled organic.
I do most things organically, but I'm not a purist. I'd never be able to go out to eat otherwise. :) I do have to be careful about what type of paints, etc. that I use, because I'm so sensitive to fumes and the same goes for lotions and shampoos.

Do what we can:
We grow our own veggies organically. Ditto meat and eggs.

We buy regular toothpaste. Tried the crystal, hated the clammy feeling--it's deodorant, not antipersperant. Don't think it works well here in the south.

We reuse our greywater.

We recycle more than the average bear. All paper products are composted.

We live too far from places that have organic choices in products and it would be too expensive to ship or drive.

Marshall,
Thanks for the humour, which you generously spread in various other fora. I'm one of the "lurkers". I wonder if you and other contributers realize that that you have readers and that we will actually zero in on your writings.

I hope I'm not being thought an elitist because I don't use brand-name toothpastes. It isn't available where I shop. I would have to go out of my way to buy it or use baking soda instead of sand and a twig.

My question was prompted by all the mentions of DEET in the mosquito thread. Got me to wondering how many grow organically veggies then go out and support chemical laden companies and industries.

Do you research your products before buying? No but we read the research sent to us about what is on the market.

For example how many use regular toothpastes and aluminum laden deodorants? we use both, but sometimes Tom's .

Do you buy non-organic meats and cheeses? Most of the time

How many still suck down the pepsi and coke products while at the drive thru? We don't drink soda or eat from drive thru's; not that we don't miss it.

How many still eat at Micky D's? Not us, tasted good for years, tho.

Organic Living People.
Their commitment to organic living is tied to a deep understanding of the state of the world and to their wish to improve the present and leave a good future for unborn generations. They respect and honor the planet. They are honest about recognizing the need to improve not only their own lots but those of others. They promote health, love, happiness, community, and education. They are willing to lead by the example of their own lives. They support organic and sustainable farming. They also tread lighter and minimize negative impact.

I am sure this is going to be an interesting thread!!

When we had two good jobs we were all organic, now that we have one mediocre paying job and a mortgage, we buy cheap groceries, but not from Wal-Mart, and we TRY to get org. coffee and bananas. We don't buy paper towels or napkins, we grow as much food to eat as possible, we buy used products and clothes. We are crazy water conservationists. We don't have air conditioning. We could do much better with a bit more cash. We love our tv and computer and both cars.

Thanks, Steve, for the applause and welcome to the GW. In truth, I don't think of lurkers or some future audience when I post to threads on this or other boards. Sometimes my attempts at humour fail to please some; I tend to post ironic (sarcastic?) comments when I can't stand something anymore but can't get up a good rave.

Right on Marshall, as per usual. The toothpaste is a good example of the holier-than-thou mindset. The 'organic' and 'responsible' toothpaste comes in a squeeze tube or some other disposable container - destined to be trash, and requiring energy to manufacture. The toothpaste has to be manufactured itself, and the finished product has to be shipped to where the holier-than-thou can buy it. And etc. The only significant difference in this case is that the organic toothpaste might be healthier for the user. There is little or no benefit to the environment. Most of the 'health' products fall into this catagory. The environment would benefit from reduction in use: scrub our teeth with baking soda, or salt, or sand. Don't use a plastic brush, make one from wood, or use fingers. Conservation is not for yuppies, or the holier-than-thou. Conservation is for whackos, yuppies and cheney agree on that much. And yet even conservation has a serius problem: individual conservation doesn't result in a savings for the planet, it merely results in ultimately more people. Maybe the consuming hogs have it right: use it up fast, break the system as soon as possible, because it will eventually result in lower populations and the environment will rebound that much sooner.

I knew it would be an interesting thread, looks like some feathers were ruffled although that was not the intention, at least by me anyway so sorry if some of you got your feelings hurt and I really dont think that anyone here is holier than thou, except those that know every damn bug in the garden, those people I bow to :)

Personally, I think its a matter of timing and where you are at in your own life. Nobody can tell you what to do, you have to do it yourself. If its the right time for you to dump colgate and use Toms, then it will happen.

I was organic gardening 15 years before I started the rest of my quest, cutting down on the Mickey D's, the sodas, the chemical laden stuff etc etc. I still eat out although not fast food, I like to eat out and realize that most of it is not good for me.
I am also in an area that is lacking in healthy restaurants options. Seems to be all bisquits and gravy here.

There are options though, and they dont involve twigs :0)
Toothbrushes
The Preserve toothbrush was developed with dental professionals over a two- year period and represents the latest in toothbrush design and function. It is constructed with environmentally friendly materials to let you replace without the waste.
Join the cycle: return the Preserve toothbrush to Recycline, we will grind it to make material for recycled plastic lumber.

There are good companies out there too that are really trying and do not share the same practices as the conventional ones.

Toothpaste

Tom's of Maine toothpaste, for example, comes in a recyclable aluminum tube inserted in a box made from 100 percent recycled cardboard and printed with soy-based inks.

Yes, Coca Cola as a company is bad for the environment, ask anyone in India who has had their well dried up because the local Coca Cola plant used up all the water supply.
Think Coca Cola is only impacting abroad, check this out.
Coca-Cola is abandoning the decades old practice of packaging its soft drinks in recycled content containers (aluminum cans and glass bottles) in favor of non-recycled plastic.
The impact of Coke's action is undermining a large part of our nation's recycling infrastructure.
- Plastic waste is increasing ten times faster than recycling of plastic soda bottles.
Coke used 600 million pounds of PET plastic in 1997 to make soda bottles sold in the United States, which is more than the entire amount of PET soda bottles recycled that year.
- Recycling rates for PET soda bottles have dropped 3 years in a row, from a peak of 50 percent to only 36 percent in 1997.
Coke is the industry leader with 45 percent market share. So its packaging choices affect the entire industry.

Finally, MSG is in more foods and packaged more ways than you can imagine.
MSG
Burger King, McDonalds, Wendy's, Taco Bell, every restaurant, even the sit down ones like TGIF, Chilis', Applebees and Denny's use MSG in abundance. Kentucky Fried Chicken seemed to be the WORST offender: MSG is in every chicken dish, salad dressing and gravy.
No wonder people love to eat that coating on the skin, their secret spice is MSG!
* Food Additives that ALWAYS contain MSG *
Monosodium Glutamate
Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein
Hydrolyzed Protein
Hydrolyzed Plant Protein
Plant Protein Extract
Sodium Caseinate
Calcium Caseinate
Yeast Extract
Textured Protein (Including TVP)
Autolyzed Yeast
Hydrolyzed Oat Flour
Corn Oil

* Food Additives That FREQUENTLY Contain MSG *
Malt Extract
Malt Flavoring
Bouillon
Broth
Stock
Flavoring
Natural Flavors/Flavoring
Natural Beef Or Chicken Flavoring
Seasoning
Spices

* Food Additives That MAY Contain MSG Or Excitotoxins *
Carrageenan
Enzymes
Soy Protein Concentrate
Soy Protein Isolate
Whey Protein Concentrate
Also: Protease Enzymes of various sources can release excitotoxin amino acids from food proteins.
Aspartame - An Intense Source Of Excitotoxins
Aspartame is a sweetener made from two amino acids, phenylalanine and the excitotoxin aspartate. It should be avoided at all costs. Aspartame complaints accounts for approximately 70% of ALL complaints to the FDA. It is implicated in everything from blindness to headaches to convulsions. Sold under dozens of brand names such as NutraSweet and Equal, aspartame breaks down within 20 minutes at room temperature into several primary toxic and dangerous ingredients:
1. DKP (diketopiperazine) (When ingested, converts to a near duplicate of
a powerful brain tumor causing agent)
2. Formic Acid (ant venom)
3. Formaldehyde (embalming fluid)
4. Methanol (causes blindness...extremely dangerous substance)
Common Examples:
Diet soft drinks, sugar free gums, sugar free Kool Aid, Crystal Light, childrens' medications, and thousands of other products claiming to be 'low calorie', 'diet', or 'sugar free'.

So, dont be offended by the thread as we are all in this together, and the more that we can learn from each other is the whole point isnt it, otherwise we wouldnt be on this forum, would we?

As Basil Fawlty once said "What's the bloody point"?

Whew!, Pat ........
Anyway, more natural methods such as flouride free toothpaste with xylitol which helps prevent cavities, are for our better health. It may not be better in total energy and resources used, but using healthier products is just a further extention of the conserving mindset....conserving health and resources.

a ;ittle off topic:

termater, another fawlty towers fan!!!!! yippee!

i will be checking into the preserve toothbrush. see, i am learning stuff on this discussion/dissection.

I loved Flowery Towels too!

A group that shouldn't be cast as holier-than-thou elitists are those who buy organic/safer products for health reasons. I don't for a minute believe that those suffering from extreme chemical sensitivities who live in porcelin trailers think they are making a "lifestyle choice". One of the reasons I'll forego a night out is to save the money and put it toward organic cotton sheets for example, because of my sensitivities. Sometimes the choices are more critical than others might think.

Frog Queen,
The learning part is what its all about, Que?

Althea,
MCS is a terrible thing, I spent many many hours investigating MCS while I ran my environmental clean up company and it is not a choice. Watching someone break out in hives from eating a conventional apple is something to see. When the apple was tested it contained residues of 26 different pesticides.
Have you found a good place for organic sheets? I found an Organic mattress that was affordable, I dont suffer from MCS but couldnt see the point of breathing formaldehyde for 8 hours a night.

I have link to Fawlty Towers online every night if you are interested, free too.

"I'm sorry, he's from Barcelona"

I'm not ruffled, in the feathers or anywhere else. Glad to find a good debate. My point is merely that it is easy to confuse what is good for the health of an individual with what is good for Gaia. But buying expensive replacement products rather than reducing individual consumption is self-indulgent at the least. No surprise there, humans are supremely self-indulgent, and the clever ones are good at guising it in robes of un-selfishness. I like to undress and look at the skeletons. You think it would be better if people didn't drink soda. Better for their health, and much better not to make plastic bottles in the first place - whether they get recycled or not. I agree, absolutely, and the same goes for every other product. "Recyclable" aluminum tubes still have to be made and then remade: fossil fuel burns in the process. I have my doubts whether many of them would get recycled rather than just tossed like most small trash items. It is so irksome to have to buy a cornucopia of hyper-packaged products with money that has to be earned by dint of fuel consumption and of yet other packaged products, and then have to dispose of the very trash that I had to buy. It's an insane way to live, and if it were just me I wouldn't. All we can do is try to reduce, first and foremost. And obviously make common-sense choices. I'm sure Basil would agree.

I'll agree for sure, pn - reduction of consumption is the only solution, and energy consumption is the engine that drives the problem - also few folks realize that packaging is by far the single largest part of our waste stream, and of that pallets make up the major part - can't reduce the 'waste' without reducing the consumption, "organic" or not

Bill

Well, I'm ruffled. This is a forum about organic gardening. OT (and however else you want to characterize them) threads like this were the reason the "Sustaining Our Evironment" forum was created over at Naturenet. FWIW, the tone of threads like this is one of the reasons I tend to avoid this forum for months at a time, despite the fact that I'm an organic gardener and more principled in most in my consumption habits. Sheesh.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sustaining Our Environment

Yes, but it is conversations...so relax a bit

Ah, here is the thread. I was thinking that the less-toxic paint I was using could have more voc's than they list on the label. ;~)

"Oh spiffing. Absolutely spiffing", Termater. Yes, please post the link to Fawlty Towers online!

The last place we got organic cotton sheets was 7th Generation, on sale for 60% off. I wish I would have ordered more than two sets. Tomorrow's World often has pretty good sales on these types of things.

These organic cotton sheets are a good example of anti-consumerist frugality because they cost a lot more than the cotton sheets made of genetically modified cotton, heavily dowsed with pesticides then treated with finishing. What is good for the health of the individual just happens to be good for Gaia as well.

Althea,

What you have to do is download the free winamp version from www.winamp.com its virus free, I have been using it for years.
Then once its downloaded and setup on your system (automatic set up) you can look at the media library for the TV listings. You will see lots of ESS shows, thats one of the places where Fawlty Towers alternates every other hour each night with Red Dwarf another funny britcom.
The other listing is TVgold that shows Fawlty Towers almost every day.
Also, check out Radio Paradise on the radio listing side, thats what I have blasting in the garden all day long, commerical free radio, ahhhhh thats nice, no car ads.

If you get any problems or questions email me at baji@worldemail.com and I can help you out.

"Shot another one, Fawlty"?

Here is a link that might be useful: Winamp Player

Termater, thanks for the link and the offer for more help if necessary. Winamp won't work for me with a Mac. Oh well. My dial-up isn't the best speed for wathching videos on the computer anyway. We'll have to order the dvd's.

"Don't mention the war!"

i read this thread earlier, went out to the garden--found a new generation of bugs on the cannas--read a little--and couldn't stop thinking of what i saw here. First, I would like to say there is a wonderful article in Mother Earth News this month about this very topic. How can we live sustainable lives in our economy? There isn't much call for loom makers or pottery specialists in tourism-driven Pensacola. Our only co-op seems poised on the brink of corporate-driven profit. With gas prices zooming, we can barely rationalize visiting family 400 miles away. Are communities going to change to accomodate a new lifestyle--or do we build new communities?

btw, habitat gardener, just a thought: i happen to be in favor of large families for the simple reason of passing on values to the one group that we affect most. (Not to mention all the fun they can be).

I know I sound ready to start a commune or join one--only if they are organic!

Couldn't resist joining the discussion...what neat thoughts you all have...

bekados, is the Mother Earth News article you read available online? I looked at the latest issue online but didn't see anything on point. There is a very good article about winter squash however.

I use 100% organic gardening methods.Don't use chemicals in lawn/yard.
I gotta admit that it's for selfish reasons.It's fun seeing the
soil get more fertile and not worrying about my kids rolling
around on the lawn.
I wish I could say it's for noble reasons like saving the planet.
I gotta work on my eating habits. I like beer and breyers ice cream.
I avoid soft drinks for the most part. High fructose corn syrup
products, for some reason the sound of it scares me.

Swanz

I try to live organicly and am curretnly evolving into a vegetarian again. Dont know if I could ever give up butter though, at least I eat organic butter if I do.

My gardens are organic and I feed my farm animals organic feed or allow them to free range on walks with me to eat untreated grass or shrubs on my property.

I avoid processed foods and dont use chemicals in general on my body. Fortunately I dont stink too bad and if I do I live on a farm and the animals just dont really care.

When I go to the city I am always amazed how many people wear heavy scented smells of cigarettes, deoderants and perfumes etc air fresheners in car and have asthma at the same time?! In an elevator I can almost gasp for air with all the chemicals and it seems nobody else seems to mind.

I dont use bleach, or actually have no reason to use bleach. I dont use it in my wash and my clothes look clean and fine.

I was raised by a military officer who was a strong republican and the family was very typical, microwave ovens, allumiumn foil, artifical sweetners, sodas, lots of candy and processed foods, deet sprayed all over our face and arms and legs every summer, flouride treatments, nail polish, weed and feed, pre emergents on the lawns, raid when there were insect pests, new carpet shag with lots of formaldehyde and decks with pressure treated wood that is now illegal, Heck I even siphoned gasoline with our garden hose for the lawn mower using my mouth to create the suction and draw the gas out of the tank.

Then I attended an environmental college and I went cold turkey and became more natural and in step with nature.

It means different things to different people. But nurturing yourself and your family with organic methods is what I try to do. Once enlightened about what risks I am actually taking with my choices it becomes easier to be more responsible as a organic gardener.

For me it doenst just stop in the garden, for the intent is more than just growing the food, its how its prepared, is it being counteracted by wrapping it in alluminium?! or plastics?!

Its a bit and a lot of what everyone else has said, its just p[lain respecting yourself enough to become as responsible as you can and still live life.

This is a very interesting thread! It was I was heading over here to ask everyone and the kinds of things you did to become more 'aware' of ecology minded products, etc.

We are trying to be very organic in everything we do and do garden organically.

One thing I dont like is saying something is "blach, blah, and blah' since people live in such different zones, etc. that you can not do it that way. Like calling ourselves 'vegetarians' when we are still mostly vegetarian.

No one but me defines me but I also like seeing a 'guideline' of what to aim for too.

I hope to get to know everyone on here. heading over to the organic side to read the threads.

Maria