Is an Organic Hot Topics forum a possibility?
That would be a great idea.
We sent TMG1 over to Hot Topics, and he posted, and then some people didn't even know what GMO's are.

I do admit that some of these crazy topics, and the humor that has gone with them, has been great entertainment for cold snowy days with wind chills below zero. If we had our own OHT, I think people would be nicer, too -- some of those HT folks are pretty uppity. I won't even stick a toe in the waters over there.

Are you suggesting it as a real possibility? Ask the admins?

I'm just looking at page 2 and 3 of this forum and wondering what the hell is happening on page 1.

It's like night/day.

Page 1 here is full of GMO, chemical agriculture, choir preaching threads...page 2 and 3 (and beyond) are full of organic gardening threads.

I wouldn't even make this thread if it wasn't for Henry's uptick in posting this GMO/chemical agriculture stuff the past 2 days after being called out on it.

Hopefully he'll at least scale back on it rather than throwing a hissy fit about being called out on it and throwing 2+ new threads a day out there.

Seriously, I do believe there is a place for discussion of these topics...but not this much...and not a daily multiple-thread creations...and it would help if what's posted as a topic was at least pertinent to gardening or truly major news.

I miss the days stuff on pages 2+ dominated page 1. It's been a weird few months. We didn't have this last winter...or the winter before...etc. The way things are going I don't think it'll stop when we get into the season, either.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Fri, Jan 3, 14 at 21:56

I guess the answer for now is to stop posting on those threads and they will slide down the scale.

I'm in.

Lloyd

"Going on an organic forum to talk about GMOs and chemical agriculture is like going to an exercise forum to talk about people who sit on the couch all day watching TV."

That's the forum I would like..

Nc, i hear where you are coming from completely. Henry did jump overboard... But, personally I enjoy "learning', being aware of the possible benefits as well the negative effects of GMO. If lessoning to Henry's spiels is the worst thing in the world, it isn't that bad.. After all, most people need to wake up and learn what's taking place around them. Most people probably don't know that the sugar they are buying is probably GMO, most people don't know about the possible negative effects some studies show GMO to posses.. And without people like Henry, we the people are almost blindfolded, having to lesson to monsanto's own study showing that the product they are selling is safe. Furthermore, isn't it illegal to conduct your own studies like monsanto, etc. Anybody see anything wrong with this? All I'm saying is there should be a forum to discuss safety concerns about our food supply etc, where the people could voice their opinions without being suppressed by big corps.

How about a GMO forum? Man, that just sounds hot...

Food safety forum?

nc-crn,

I agree wholeheartedly and would like that forum to be established so I can never go there :)

I enjoy reading gardening forums for the diversity of opinions and experiences.

I have no interest in that same 'wisdom of the collective' on scientific topics and reading it just creates a feeling of despair. (the recent 'Global Warming' threads on the Fruit and Orchards forum being one additional example.)

~emmers

I think the posts are relevant and educational, especially for those unfamiliar with the subject.

From the forum description: "Organic gardening is most easily defined as a philosophy that stresses the use of naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and avoiding man-made chemical fertilizers and pesticides."

I don't find much relevant or educational about dozens of cut/pasted articles about GMOs, RoundUp, large scale commercial farming, and chemical agriculture in an organic gardening forum...especially when a lot of it isn't timely or groundbreaking...and very especially when some of it is coming from pseudo-science sources.

It doesn't help when one tries to throw some water on the flames only to be told...by someone with no training, education, or experience in the field...that their Google search for more pseudo-science or a study they're misreading because of a lack of understanding the material trumps what you're stating even after explaining what's wrong with where they're going with the material they want to stand behind.

If someone starts a fire, they should at least know when to quit trying to fan the flames and let a fireman do their job...especially if science and knowledge is something they actually care about rather than their emotions, ego, and philosophy.

Any chance it's because the past two winters have been mild (I was prepping beds in January last year!) and this year it's sub zero in a lot of places right now? Maybe we're just bored ;) I have definitely noticed an uptick in argumentativeness during the winter (last year, too). Maybe we need to grow more indoor sprouts.

On a page labeled titles there is link organic gardening. This takes me to the page labeled messages (Which has the link to this thread.) Back under Messages I find:

On-Topic Discussions [Switch to: Conversations]

The problem seems to be nobody uses Conversations! I started some threads there. Experimented with ideas supporting and objecting to GMOs for example and no one was interested.

"The problem seems to be nobody uses Conversations! I started some threads there. Experimented with ideas supporting and objecting to GMOs for example and no one was interested."

No one uses them because there are no instructions! I even emailed garden web when i got banned(they banned me and not Henry, seriously?) and they did not reply back. They banned me for posting threads with a youtube video, they thought i was promoting my business.. In reality, I'm just trying to help people get more knowledgeable, let them be aware of what they are not. These conversation threads seem like just the place for me, where you can find information you think would be helpful to others, and share that information. Unfortunately, I'm scared to post a thread with a video because I might get banned. The thread "soil food web" for instance, I thought i would of been banned.. It's sad you can't help others because people always think you have malicious intentions, some people are soo close minded..

I commiserate with nc_crn about Henry's "gift givings" but I have more angst about Master Gardeners onslaught of often erroneous "facts" in defense of conventional and against organic farming. The dude refuses to post links to back up claims. When the claims are shown to be false, the dude does not respond with counter proof, just with non sequitors and more red herrings and ad hominems.

"and then some people didn't even know what GMO's are."

Elisa, I find that hard to believe. Did someone over at HT say that they did not know what GMO is?

Pat, I too wondered about that. How many times have we discussed gmo issues?

More times than an argumenter can shake a stalk of bt-corn at.....

LOL

Pat and Marshall -- I just looked back and saw what gave me that impression -- someone who thought all fruits and veggies were GMO -- a confusion w/ hybrids. Then the next person sort of agreed. Then later on, someone talked about genes being spliced into chicken . . .but actually, most people were quite knowledgeable.

A discussion forum is a place for people to discuss ideas.
There are some people that would like to suppress ideas that are contrary to what they think and therefore would like to limit what can be discussed.
If you are not interested in the discussion topic you do not have to participate. There are a few industry shills that come here and comment on just about every topic posted and most often with erroneous information.
nc, it is not your place to censor what is posted here, that is why this forum has moderators.

This post was edited by kimmsr on Mon, Jan 6, 14 at 7:01

"nc, it is not your place to censor what is posted here, that is why this forum has moderators."

I don't have the power to censor. You also don't have the power to censor my complaint about where we've been going lately on this board.

"There are a few industry shills that come here and comment on just about every topic posted and most often with erroneous information."

I don't think there's a conspiracy of "industry shills" coming in here. I know of 1 person here who's said they're in the industry and that's me...dunno where the conspiracy of others is coming from...and myself, I'm not on a campaign of disinformation.

"There are some people that would like to suppress ideas that are contrary to what they think and therefore would like to limit what can be discussed."

Suppress ideas? Who's been holding who back from expressing themselves? Who's trying to "suppress ideas" that are contrary to what they think?

I don't think people would like it if I created a bunch of threads a week discussing chemical agriculture or GMO in a positive or realistic light for the sake of "discussion" even though I could.

What if I posted this?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2014/01/06/agent-orange-gmo-after-usda-backs-24-d-seeds-michael-pollan-marion-nestle-lead-activist-hype-of-discredited-link/

Then I posted this?

http://southsaskfarmer.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/why-i-grow-gmos/

Then I posted this?

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/henry-i--miller-on-the-meaningless-distinction-between-genetically-modified-organisms-and-their-conventional-counterparts

Then I posted this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/us/on-hawaii-a-lonely-quest-for-facts-about-gmos.html

Then I posted....

etc etc...I think you get the point. I could post 5-10 a week of these, easy...timely stuff, not just stuff dug up from the past for the heck of it.

At what point would people yearn for the days of people actually discussing gardening rather than the politics of large scale commercial farming and government regulation that doesn't pertain to organic farming/gardening?

At what point would people call me out for posting stuff like this in an organic gardening forum? Would it be welcome and open for discussion even though it's something some may not want to hear? This would be fair game? This would be considered a great addition to an organic gardening forum?

...and no, I'm not going to start posting stuff like this because I've NEVER started a chemical agriculture thread in the Organic Gardening forum and I've NEVER started a GMO thread in the Organic Gardening forum.

...also, I posted these links as an example to make my point...not to start a new discussion on their merits. They've shown up in my email recently. I do recommend the NYTimes one, though.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jan 6, 14 at 8:27

Also, I think someone who for years has been giving out canned gardening advice to suggest that someone else is a "shill" is a bit rich.

Boy, and they complain about HT being contentious! :)

Oh yes, you've missed a lot of fun around here lately...

I don't know of my posts is part of your 12, but it was intended to have something to due with organic gardening and got into a whole bunch of issues related to organic gardening, but far from what this forum is intended for. There were some really good discussion though so I wouldn't call it a total loss, but I know what you mean

When you think about though there aren't too many other forums on this website that really tie in with the whole GMO vs conventional vs organic farming. I've actually tried to find other websites and forums that have more to do with actual "farming", not gardening, but I haven't found any good ones at least

This post was edited by mike758 on Mon, Jan 6, 14 at 10:06

Perhaps this chattiness is akin to over the fence gossiping -- maybe more so when most of the country is in winter doldrums.

NC, are you a organic gardening expert? Just curious. There used to be a poster who would pop up only when the word RoundUp appeared on a thread to defend the herbicide's use, safety, value to the Nation and the world. A couple of others would appear when gmos were subjects of discussion.

"Expert" might be in the eyes of the beholder, but I do have many years experience/training in my own private life, education, and working experience.

I doubt I could take my collective experience and call myself an expert, though...not like that stops some hacks in this world, though. We have a lot of so-called "experts" out there playing food-advocate and farming-expert who are anything but proper spokesmen/spokeswomen for the industries they choose to speak/write about.

I've consulted on commercial compost facility operations. I've helped set up school organic gardens. I've helped set up a commercial demonstration organic garden. I'm a certified Permaculturalist. I have degrees in Horticulture and Soil Science. My own garden is mostly organic aside from chemical fertilizer use (hence, mostly).

This may shock people, but if you think about it...it makes sense. In the industry you have to use a whole lot of organic management in greenhouse/field work because you can't go around introducing herbicides/pesticides in plants you're raising to test a single, specific herbicide/pesticide on.

Thanks for the summary. We share similar interests and educations and experiences but my degree was not in horticulture but in tropic plant ecology/biogeography and ethnobotany. Soil science masters, ag research in the Amazon (Green Revolution/miracle rice), university teaching, compost consulting and certification inspections of compost operations (in lieu of State standards at the time), school and community gardens, orchard installations and management, landscaping, garden management, conventional and organic farming, organic farm inspecting, etc. I also do garden designing specializing now in California natives and in special gardens with spiritual/religious themes. I keep busy. I run three enterprises with good help. I'm supposed to be slowing down.

Keep posting links nc-crn. The NY times piece was a good read. The comparison to global warming deniers was interesting.

I see some horticulture people here. I'm currently studying in horticulture

"Going on an organic forum to talk about GMOs and chemical agriculture is like going to an exercise forum to talk about people who sit on the couch all day watching TV."

I agree with this. The worst example was at the idig forum. That forum is run by Jere Gettle of Baker Creek heirloom seeds. There are a couple of posters that have used the forum to only argue with people who garden organically and are against GMOs. These users do not post anything about gardening or plants at all. The one a couple years ago just posted republican propaganda and nothing to do with crops but after I said something and was temporarily banned for it, they stopped all political posting (and eventually let me back in, even though they obviously agreed with what my complaint was). So anyway that forum is 10X worse and I guess at least here if you want to argue about GMOs you are allowed and the moderators are not so evil like RedZone at idig.

It seems to me that whether it is politics, organic gardening, or no-till farming with cover crops, the people who are passionate about these things tend to make them like a religion with the expected litmus tests for true believers. That is reality and a bit of consideration will sweeten discussions.