Return to the Organic Gardening Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Of bindweed and Roundup

Posted by girlndocs 8 WA (My Page) on
Sun, Mar 26, 06 at 23:03

I've never used any synthetic pesticides in my garden, since the day we moved into this house. But I'm being driven to it, I think, by the persistent and massive bindweed problem the whole yard has.

There is no living with it. It smothers my roses completely unless I'm out there rescuing them once a week (and if I don't want to rip off whole branches' worth of rose leaves and flowers, I have to carefully unwind each bindweed tendril individually). It runs along the ground and covers my other flowerbeds and veggie patch. It appears everywhere.

I can't dig it out: as those of you familiar with this weed know, it has root systems that no doubt span several yards. You pull up a 6-foot piece, and it breaks somewhere under the ground and grows back in a flash.

I can't kill it with vinegar or smothering: it's in my flowerbeds.

So I have a bottle of Roundup and a plan, which I found on the Weeds board: install containers of a dilute solution around the garden, gather the tips if still-growing vines and submerge them in the solution,and allow the vines to slowly absorb the low-dosage poison until eventually the whole root system collapses.

But before I make up my mind to do it, I need to knwo I haven't overlooked any alternatives. I don't want to use pesticide if I don't absolutely have to. Has anyone here found an organic way of comtrolling/eliminating bindweed?

And if I *did* use the RU, can it hurt the soil, or the microherd, or birds that eat bugs out of my dirt? What repercussions might there be if I use synthetic pesticide, this once, in my organic garden?

Thanks,

Kristin


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by jean001 z8aPortland, OR (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 26, 06 at 23:35

You asked: "And if I *did* use the RU, can it hurt the soil, or the microherd, or birds that eat bugs out of my dirt?"

No, no, and no.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

No one who claims to be an organic gardener would use Round Up or any Glyphosate produce. The USEPA Water Quality Division is finding glyphosate in the water we drink and wash in. Glyphosate is present in many soils. This article may be of some interest.
"MONSANTO IS POISONING US: HOW MANY STUDIES DOES IT TAKE?
New research from France has confirmed previous studies that Monsanto's Roundup, the most commonly used herbicide in the world, is much more toxic that Monsanto admits. The study indicates that at levels 100 times lower than the recommended use in agriculture, Roundup herbicide causes reproductive damages and endocrine disruption. In other related news, the FDA Office of Plant and Dairy Foods has stated that half of the non-organic produce they have tested in grocery stores contains traceable residues of various pesticides, including Roundup. http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/pregnancy060305.cfm"


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by ericwi Dane County WI (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 27, 06 at 9:24

We have bindweed too, although not as much as we had 10 years ago. I keep pulling it up, which goes much more easily after a significant rainfall. It makes great compost, and I am not seeing any evidence that our compost contains viable bindweed seed. We have a slow compost pile, so the bindweed would be in the pile for at least a year.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

While the use of RoundUp would certainly not be considered an organic gardening practice, sometimes practicality overrides good intentions. Bindweed can be a nasty, agressive problem in our area, difficult to control. It is even more problematic if it appears in an already planted area. Your solution sounds reasonable and with minimal impact on the environment. Glyphosate has an extremely short half-life in the soil, breaking down into quickly biodegradable compounds, and your proposed method of allowing it to metastasize through the plant tissues reduces any likelihood of the surfactants and other adjutants (which are the real pollution issues) from leaching into the groundwater. Be sure to use this process when the vine is in active growth. And you will need to still keep on top of any remaining sprouts, which will undoubtedly pop up from seeds or dormant roots. If you get them early, they are much easier to remove. Diligence is the key!


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

"No one who claims to be an organic gardener would use Round Up or any Glyphosate produce."

If using glyphosate once makes me "non-organic," then I guess I'll be non-organic. I would rather have a "non-organic" garden (with biodiversity, carefully-built soil, and natural pest and disease solutions) than the world's most organic mound of bindweed foliage, which is what my garden will be if I don't find a solution.

I understand that OVERuse of glyphosate products and other pesti/herbicides is a huge problem, but that doesn't necessarily make *my* careful and considered use of it a danger. You simply haven't presented a convincing argument that I shouldn't use it in the manner I described.

Do you have any alternatives for me? Because I've spent 4 years being smothered by this stuff and looking for alternatives. I'm not running out to spray it full-strength on the first dandelion I see.

"While the use of RoundUp would certainly not be considered an organic gardening practice, sometimes practicality overrides good intentions."

Exactly, gardengal, this is what I'm beginning to realize about my situation. I'm thinking that this is what synthetic pesticides are really *for*: for careful use when nothing else works.

The guy who described this method of using RU on bindweed said that after the main root systems collapsed, tiny seedling vines kept popping up, but those were *much* easier to simply yank once and for all.

I am still open to organic solutions. I would rather not use the RU. Unfortunately, I don't have 10 years to spend yanking the stuff out: it's taking over now, and I expect the chunk I yank out in my yard runs all the way over underground to several of my neighbors' yards, so it's a losing battle.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

There are times when you really have no realistic choice other than to use Round Up (or other glyphosate compounds).

Our home is on 1.25 acres of land which was neglected for 10 plus years as the previous owners' health declined.

Now, we are trying to get things back under control.

It is not humanly possible to control/manage/maintain that type of space (with the problems that it has) without the use of limited chemical applications.

I do not use RU in the areas that I use for my veggie garden but I do use it in a controlled and limited way in other areas.

There is just no other practical way for me to do it.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Kristin, I think what kimmsr is saying is that many organic gardners won't even consider the chemical pesticide route, because we find it isn't needed; and we recognize the enormous damagage that has been done to our farmlands, our culture, and our health by conventional farming practices and we feel that we don't want to support that industry in any way. There are other more natural herbicides that can be of use to you - some take a little more time to make, gather, and use, but, to me, it's a great satisfaction to grow a bounteous garden without the chems. The link may give you some suggestions for dealing with bindweed. Its written for farms, but can be adapted. Good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: bindweed hebicide protection


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Thank you for the resource; I'll check it out. It sounds like the kind of thing I've been looking for.

I love gardening organically and I'm committed to avoiding a lot of things (not only in my gardening but the rest of my life) that I feel are implicated in irresponsible environmental and/or social stewardship. I understand the point of view that some things are to be avoided whenever possible, because it's my point of view too. This is the first time I've ever even considered using a synthetic 'cide, it's only happening now because I'm so desperate for some kind of solution, and I'm struggling with my conscience over the choice.

The organic cause is not served in any way by snotty replies, rather than help and resources. Those are the "organic freaks" people talk about when they tar all organic gardeners with the same holier-than-thou brush. And it certainly won't do anything to make conventional gardeners want to change their ways, if all they get is condemnation for the solutions they've found without any help to arrive at other workable solutions. As I say, the choice between a "non-organic" garden and an organic patch of bindweed has a fairly obvious answer, no? In order to find something isn't needed, you need to know about a practical alternative to it.

Kristin


 o
RE: alternatives

OK, I've had a chance to look at the link mikkle provided, and I'm afraid I'm not any further forward than I was before :(

I don't think any method will work for me if it doesn't somehow systemically kill the root system. The issue is that I'm in an urban yard, and this stuff has a truly *monstrous* root system -- when I said in my first post that the roots span several yards, I didn't mean the unit of measurement, I meant residential lots.

So if I try to weaken the bindweed by depriving it of its aboveground growth, no matter how diligent I am, it's only going to laugh at me. That very same root system is probably over in both my neighbors' yards sending up more leaves to nourish itself, so it can keep popping up in my yard indefinitely without being weakened. Ditto for black plastic or weed fabric, which I understand to be horrible for soil structure and microherd anyway.

And the organic herbicides the article recommends for organically-certified farms are all non-root-affecting. So I'm back to square one, and even that article says that sometimes you just have to use glyphosate.

Sigh.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Nope Mikkle, what I said is that no glyphosate product is accetable to an organic gardener. People that use those products and parrot the manufacturers claims that the products are environmentally safe are not paying attention to the mounting evidence to the contrary.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Kristen, You might look at the url; it provides a little different insight into why weeds are there in the first place.

Here is a link that might be useful: weed control without poisons


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

From the link:

"Bindweeds - tight crusted soil, low in humus."

Well, it all SOUNDS very good, but I've intensely amended my veggie and rose patch soil to a beautifully friable state with lots and lots of humus, and the bindweed just loves it.

Even if it didn't, I have a feeling the link is talking about a slightly different scale than I'm operating on, here. Sure, the average soil quality in my neighborhood is probably heavy and low in humus, since that's what I had when I moved in. But it's not like I can go around amending all my neighbor' yards.

And frankly? I laugh in the face of all this "little herb" "pioneer plant" business. Excuse me if I sound kind of bitter. I've been wrestling with this stuff for 4 years and believe me, there is no use it could possibly have that would make up for its unstoppable destructiveness.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I'm battling a much smaller but still annoying bindweed infestation.

The Roundup-in-containers plan has potential drawbacks of rainwater dilution, potential overflow due to heavy rain and problems for the gardener trying to maneuver around the containers. I agree that impermeable black plastic and landscape fabric are bad for soil quality/plant growth, but what about using several sheets of newspaper as an alternative, covered with a few inches of mulch at the start of the season, applied throughout the entire garden? Any bindweed that manages to come up directly at the unprotected base of plants can be dealt with more easily through spot treatment with the preferred herbicide. The key would be to block as much sunlight as possible from reaching the bindweed. Eradication would likely take several years, but I'd bet that using Roundup alone is going to be a lengthy process as well.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I actually thought a lot about a plan similar to yours, Eric. Here's the drawbacks I see to it:

1) in my heavy clay-based soil, I get really bad results if I mulch early in the season before the ground warms up and dries out a bit. By that time, the bindweed is already up and actively growing, which would make covering it with anything a real challenge.

2) I can't mulch my neighbors' yards and there are quite a few spots in my own yard that would be difficult to impossible to mulch. The bindweed comes through/under the fences and out from these spots in a flash.

3) to me it seems much more touchy and risky to use herbicide, organic or not, on bindweed coming up right around the "neck" of a desired plant, than it would to apply a herbicide only to the bindweed at a spot further away from the plants.

and 4) bottom line, I don't see eradication happening at all, ever, with this method, due to the fact that the plants simply send up more shoots in my neighbors' yards and across the alley to revitalize themselves for another attack in my yard. I would be stuck doing this heavy and meticulous mulching on every inch of my yard for the rest of the years I live here, and really make no progress with it. I'm not fond of running in place indefinitely.

The RU method is supposed to work within the season (not counting the seedlings which are apparently easy to pull up before they grow their huge roots). It kills the monster root system spanning my yards and my neighbors'. For good.

I think that hanging the containers on fences or walls up off the ground wil minimize the danger of accidental spillage. I would cover the containers with lids that have just enough of an opening cut out to hold a tight bundle of bindweed stems as they point down into the container, and tent those openings with baggies or something similar to protect from rainfall overflow. Positioning as many as possible of them under the overhang of my eaves will provide further insurance.

Believe me, I don't want this stuff in my soil, I don't want it on my plants, I don't want it to contact anything except what it absolutely has to and only in the amounts necessary. I just want that bindweed gone.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

The last couple of years we have been using a mite that munches bindweed as its only source of food. This mite was developed by a local insectery in Palisade, Colorado. It is totally organic and it works, not as fast as spraying, but completely safe. The mites winter in the roots and come out the next spring to keep on munching. So there are alteratives out there, you just have to search for them.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Can you give me the name of the insectery? I would love to check that out.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Never mind, I Googled it up for myself.

"Bindweed mites survive better in drier settings. Their impact in sprinkler irrigated settings, especially lawns, will probably be less than in non-irrigated sites [...] Excessive moisture appears to be the environmental factor that limits its establishment."

I live in the rainy PNW, and the bindweed is in my well-watered rose beds. :(

Kristin

Here is a link that might be useful: Bindweed Mites


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

"I've intensely amended my veggie and rose patch soil to a beautifully friable state with lots and lots of humus, and the bindweed just loves it."

"...in my heavy clay-based soil, I get really bad results if I mulch early in the season before the ground warms up and dries out a bit."

Um...OK. Good luck with whatever you do.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Yes, the soil in my yard is heavy and clay based. Yes, I have amended parts of it, namely my veggie and rose beds. I have not amended others as heavily, or at all, and find that on the whole, mulching heavily before the soil warms up has a bad effect in my garden.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I read some where that this person used the method you are talking about with the round up. The Bind weed took up the Round Up and as it traveled through the roots it killed any plants that were near by.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Holy crap. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm afraid of. If anyone can provide more substantial documentation of this happening (not just "I heard of this guy") I'd appreciate it.

I'm a little skeptical, I have to say, simply because if it killed everything around the bindweed it would have laid a whole yard or more bare. The roots are a network that runs under *everything*.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

"The guy who described this method of using RU on bindweed said that after the main root systems collapsed, tiny seedling vines kept popping up, but those were *much* easier to simply yank once and for all." Do you have "substancial documentation" that the RR will work as it was described by "the guy?"


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

No, I don't, and that's a good point, but I DO have corroborating stories from several other people on the Weeds forum that describe it as working for them. Nobody described it as killing a single plant it wasn't intended to kill.

It's not exactly documentation, true, but I tend to think that anecdotal evidence is on the side of its working (without wiping out whole gardens in its path).

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I purchased an applicator for round up which looks quite a bit like a paint roller on a wand. I believe I got the applicator from A M Lenard. The wand is a reservoir for the round up. You simply roll the wand over the unwanted plants, and it wets the weeds. I've used it around the base of roses, and it works well. The beauty of this system was that I did not have to worry about spray hitting the roses, and could still get very close (within an inch or so) to the base of the rose. You may need to come back and hit the strays that did not get killed the first time, but I've found this a quite useful tool. I imagine that you could use a standard paint roller and tray to apply the material also. The only advantage to the wand I described is that it meters material to the roller. This method essentially eliminates any concerns about excessive ru application which could cause adverse environmental impacts.

Renais


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Bind Weed is a nasty weed. It can be controlled by hand pulling if it is very young and not well established. This assumes a persistant gardener who keeps pulling it at the first sign of a new sprout.

Once bindweed gets established it presents a problem that challenges even the most dedicated gardener regardless of whether they are organic only or follow some other approach/methodology. Simply put it is difficult to eradicate established bindweed even with RoundUp.

Pulling established bindweed simply activates the roots to push up more sprouts and it can withstand repeated pulling for many years. Tilling the ground simply divides the roots into seperate plants which makes poisoning the plant more difficult as one now has 100 plants instead of 1 or 2.

It is a great challenge.

The only method I have heard of that works fairly reliably with established bindweed is RoundUp. And simply applying Roundup the normal way doesn't work because it won't get far enough into the root system to kill the plant.

You have to do as you are asking about, make a solution and place the growing tips into it and wait for the plant to take it up fully.

I don't know of, and never heard of any other way to control bindweed than this.

Even this may not provide the clear victory you are hoping for. If neighboring properties have bindweed your victory might be short lived and require constant vigilance. There is an ancedotal story I heard of from another GWer years ago where he used the soak it approach with RoundUp on bindweed that had been present for over 25 years on a property. According to his report the Bindweed in the neighbor's property across the street turned brown and died as did the bindweed is his own yard. If true, this suggests the bind weed in his yard was so established that it's roots extended under the street and into his neighbor's yard. Of course, I can't confirm this report, it is ancedotal, but I found it not unreasonable given the remarkable vitality of bind weed and it's ability to form extensive roots systems immune to nearly all control if not eradicated promptly.

Good luck.

In the future you might wish to avoid posting to the organic forum with questions regarding RoundUp as it inevitably leads to contention. There is a weed forum that is likely more suited to your query. This isn't a rebuke, just a friendly suggestion based upon experience with this forum ;-)


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Thanks, username. I especially appreciate your corroborating description of bindweed. I think some of the people who gave me a hard time are envisioning it as some ordinary weed, maybe a tenacious one but still one that can be handled by mulching or pulling with due diligence. It isn't, and none of the organic methods that have worked for me with other very invasive weeds (like dock and blackberry) will possibly work with bindweed.

I understand that applying the glyphosate isn't going to be the end of my troubles forever, although I wish it would. All I want is to get on top of it, so I can keep up with the dang stuff. My home is rental property that hasn't had any real yard upkeep for God knows how many years (decades?) before I moved in, and right now I can't possibly pull or mulch faster than this stuff spreads and chokes. It's just coming up now and I see it literally everywhere I look. I only just worked over my mounded tomato & pepper beds 2 weeks ago and covered them with black plastic -- I removed yards of root/vine then, and now there are new vines peeping out from under the plastic!

I can see how how asking my question here could be seen as deliberately antagonistic, but I did it for a reason -- I really wanted to avoid using the stuff, and in my experiemce the Weeds forum is frequented by people who think nothing of spraying an entire garden patch with it to avoid the work of tilling or smothering sod. Over there, almost every answer involves synthetic herbicide of some kind -- I wanted to see if I could avoid using it. I wanted the perspective of folks who took it as seriously as I do.

As it turns out I was half successful -- I didn't find any organic solutions that would be workable for me, but I did have my suspicions confirmed that this is stuff I should handle with far more caution and respect than the vast majority of conventional gardeners do.

Kristin


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Let us know how it goes. I'm thinking of a similar solution. How long do you have to "soak" the shoots? How dilute should the solution be?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

girlndocs,

I sometimes frequent this forum because I have great respect for managing my property in an environmentally responsible way. The 'pray and spray' approach of unknowledgable land owners really irriates me.

I believe that organic principles are sound, but incomplete. Thus, I am not an 'organic only' manager of my property. I try as best I can to use natural, low toxicity methods if I have to use any 'control' at all and really try my best not to have to use any.

However, there are certain problems for which I, personally, know of no reasonable non chemical control. Bindweed, once it is well established, is such a beast.

Found early and treated aggressively chemical controls might be avoidable, but once expansive roots have formed, I don't know of any reports of success with anything other than RoundUp using the soaking approach.

There might be another way and perhaps other forum members will offer a viable alternative.

Nevertheless to answer Diane's question, the dillution isn't all that important. The way RoundUp works is that the plant takes the material in via it's leaves and it travels down to the root system. Once in the roots it goes to work and results in plant death. At least this is how it usually works. With a weed like bindweed the problem is that the roots are so extensive that the toxin from a 'normal' application only makes it to a portion of the root system and the damage to one portion of the root system serves as a biological trigger to the rest of the roots to go into overdrive and send up shoots to get energy from the sun.

To kill this weed requires a long term 'force feeding' of toxins to the roots. Unless you have gotten advice elsewhere that suggests differently I would suggest the approach another GWer posted from years ago (I mentioned his report in a previous posting). Mix the RoundUp at the normal rate listed on the label.

Place the solution in a container that won't tip over in the wind. Consider supporting it with rocks or something to secure it. Grab the end of the weed and stuff it into the solution and try to secure it into the container. Rubber bands might be useful here. How long do you leave it? Until the weed is visibly dead. This means brown, no green left. As long as there is green it is still translocating the toxin into the roots.

You may have many seperate weeds so as one dies, if others remain green they likely have a seperate root system and the approach needs to be repeated.

Good luck. The good news is this is a winnable battle. The bad news is that unless someone here has an alternative solution, chemical controls may be your only viable option. Please excercise all due care and keep all pets and kids out of the area.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I hate to bring this to the to the front again, especially in this forum, but I guess I got something to say about this. I used to be a regular on this forum, and then I got busy and have been gone for over 4 years. Just registered for the first time (last time I piped up, registration was optional). So forgive me if I just jump right in. Let me introduce myself. Serious committment to sustainability and organics. Think we all have to make sacrifices to make that happen. Training in chemistry, biochemistry, and biotechnology. Don't shoot me for that.

Here's what I got to say about bindweed and Roundup. One of the few applications that makes sense. And this application only makes sense in very limited situations.

Here is my personal experience. I bought a house (URBAN ENVIRONMENT) with a major infestation of bindweed. That was good and bad. Provided habitat and food to urban wildlife in a major way, but was a classified noxious weed.

This is what I did, and it worked:

1. Pulled as much of it as I could the first year. Tried to substitute for habitat and food sources as best I could.

2. Used roundup (only time in my life), but didn't use it according to manufacturer's instructions. Instead I bought the concentrated form. Then I went out with cotton swabs and some clippers. I looked at the vines, picked each one (OK a few main ones) that showed new growth, clipped it back to reveal a freshly cut stem, then swabbed the cut stem with concentrated RU. Did it on a day without rain for 48 h, did it on a day with the temp above 55-60.

Worked great. Didn't kill everyting, but made such a dent that the next year was 1/50th the effort. And now it's gone, or gone enough that hand pulling will work just fine, even with the neighbor's growth.

I was so happy with the results that I (for a brief moment) got RU happy. I'm not proud of this, but I learned from it. I can tell you first hand, that spraying the stuff or even gently putting the stuff out, can kill plants nearby that are not directly exposed. The most specific thing I have seen with the -- um -- stuff is to carefully q-tip it onto a freshly cut stem. In extreme circumstances only. I believe that there are circumstances extreme enough for this, but they are few and highly situational. (Oh I so want to editorialze here about profit margins and marketing, but I wont). Please don't skewer me.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I was just reading a site about companion planting which said Mexican Marigolds kill bindweed. A general search for other references recommend planting Mexican marigolds as a cover crop to kill bindweed.

HTH

Here is a link that might be useful: google results


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I'm finding this discussion both interesting and useful. I see on althea's google results that Mexican Marigold is considered a realproblem in some areas of the U.S and other countries. I also note that some sources indicate that the herbicidal properties don't kick in until the plant is 3-5 months old. I can't determine why the difference in the length of time.

Reading a number of the google results pages leaves me thinking a lot of people have heard or read that this plant deters weeds and haven't really tried it themselves. Nor have they thoroughly checked beyond the sales catalogue description to determine if it's a good choice for their area.

Has anyone come across any information about what property is in the Mexican Marigold's roots that results in a weed deterent?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Certain plants release chemicals that are toxic to other plants. The walnut tree is a really good example of this.

However, most of the plants reputed to have this 'power' really don't or they do, but only within a few inches of themselves. Others release toxins that only work on certain plant species and not others.

Established bindweed will have a root system that must be completely killed for good control. The root system on well established bindweed can easily extend the span of multiple city lots. This is why not even a spraying of RoundUp (or any other toxin, synthetic or organic) is enough in many cases.

Complete eradication of bindweed, once it is well established, requires a persistent, educated approach and one should expect to spend more than 1 year in most cases getting it under control.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I am curious to how does Weed-b-gone compare with round-up.
What kind of resedue it lives behind. Additionally
a mild dose of scott's lawn fertilizer - what kind of half life it would have.
I have been battling with clover in the yard. I am
considering spot treatment of weed-b-gone.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Round Up is very safe.Round UP uses aormatic amino acids pathways to kill plants. Humans have no aormatic amino acids.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I cannot believe that anyone would consider using ROUNUP in any circumstance. It is indeed toxic. There is more and more evidence all the time. Stop thinking only of your yard, and start thinking of the people who are exposed of it at the factory, the worms,http://www.guarding-our-earth.com/aggrand/roundup.htm
amphibians, http://www.chronicle.pitt.edu/media/pcc050411/sci1_pesticide.html
the company that makes it (Monsanto)
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BBQCMC/interactiveda-can801-20
and then listen to "Deconstructing Dinner"
http://www.cjly.net/deconstructingdinner/043009.htm
Then let me know if you can apply Roundup and still sleep at night.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

You resurrected a 3 year old post for this? There is nearly always a current RoundUp thread one can rant either way in ;)


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Wow, a three year old post. I'm willing to bet he was doing internet searches on "Roundup" and found it.

Anyways...I nuked a lawn with Roundup this past weekend. Not really a lawn, more a tangle of foot high weeds. Didn't feel too good but we needed a quick solution. Older lady who had neighbour's threatening to call the city and have her fined if she didn't take care of it. Weeds and allergies mean a health issue, but I think the neighbours were more concerned that the weeds were getting into their own lawns.

We nuked last weekend and this weekend we will be going over to lay down landscape fabric all over her lawn. Then we'll lay raised beds for her to plant flowers in. Strangely, the neighbours complain about her weeds causing allergies to act up, but flowers, roundup, and weed 'n' feed don't bother them in their own yards. Must be a specific allergy they have.


 o
Did it work???

Does anyone know if the RU actually killed the bindweed? Unfortunately, RU is used a lot commercially, but I have NEVER seen ANYTHING that will kill bindweed even with MANY applications.
Please note that I am not using it, and WILL NOT use it in my garden.
Just Wondering,
Tom


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Bindweed is bad news..it grows everywhere. Or will if something isn't done about it.
Since I don't use chemicals, I've concluded, the only way to keep a garden looking its best is WORK. Don't wait a week or month. As soon as a weed pops up, dig. Dig deep. Remove as many roots as possible.
Don't toss green, healthy bindweed cuttings in a compost. Set in the sun until all parts are dead.

No matter what any company says, chemicals are killing people, causing cancers. It's amazing how many people have acquired cancer over the years. I believe chemicals are the culprit.
Google organic methods for gardening and most household chores. Vinager and Peroxide does wonders.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I was told yesterday that a gentleman was cured of cancer when he was told he has 6 mos to live. He was given bindweed to eat. You can cook it like spinach or eat it like lettuce Just the leaves that is!! It was recommended by his migrant helpers and this was an old farmer that told me this. He was cured in 2 mos! I want to give this a try


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Believe it or not, some Univ. actually did research on at what point a bindweed plant must be clipped off to eventually kill it. In a nutshell - cut the plant at ground level, it can re-grow up to the point where it is no longer than 8". At 8" or less long, cut the plant off again. Repeat the process disallowing the plant to ever get past 8" long and the entire plant will die. The research stated that the means by which this works is never letting the plant send any reserves back into the root system, until the plant reaches 8" it is utilizing reserves from the root system.

Having never tried this method until about 8 years ago, I can report that my bindweed infested patch was cleared completely in 3 years of painstaking cultivation with a stirrup hoe. Now I just have to keep the edges cultivated as it tries to creep in from the garden's neighboring lawn in places.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.,USA (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 10, 11 at 22:08

I wish Round up was as BAD as some of you are saying. My brother compost, but uses round up. He put it on wild dewberries. The new growth had crinkled, but put out & grew like nothing happen. Gasoline would have killed it. He used BLUE label & it did not kill the dewberries or wild garlic, will not kill nut sage either.
For killing bindweed, try clear plastic in hot weather, around the garden. Do not do this in the beds, it will kill the soil food web. Yes, I am going to try it on the dewberries this summer.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Any glyphosate product, or any product containing 2,4,D, or 2,4,5,T, or any other organophosphate, or any other synthetic material is unacceptable to any organic grower. If you use any such product you ought not call your self an organic grower for a minumum of 3 years after the last use. I have seen nothing from the very weak National Organic Standards Board that permits those things to be used on an organic farm and no one that is truely an organic grower would use any of them.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.,USA (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 11, 11 at 20:49

No one said my brother was a Organic gardener. How ever the round up can not be killing his food web in the soil. when he has as good of crops as I do. I am a organic gardener & I do not care what the NOSB thinks or says.
Bureaucracy is just another way for the government to stop the freedom of speech.
My point is, that if RU was as bad as some of these people say then the stuff should have ran across the 1 acre pasture & killed my garden too. My brother uses green horse manure with no ill effects & the RU did not bind up the nutrients & minerals or he would not have as good of a garden as I.
Who died & made you the person who can say a person is or is not an organic gardener. You are a sad person who loves to hear their on voices.I could say you are not even a gardener, but then I would be like you!


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I have no particular aversion to using RU but do have one observation from years of it's use at work: it seems spraying RU is like spraying weed seeds around. Wherever I spray it, the plant I intend to control certainly craps out but usually 2 or 3 new species take it's place and they aren't any better. The newcomers aren't present until the RU kills off the target species. Ain't life a bee-och!

In the garden, I prefer to use the hoe though it is a great deal more work than the squirt and kill method. Mechanical cultivation definitely works if done properly (species dependent) and the more you do it, the less is required (if you don't get arthritis first!).


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Canada Thistle is another weed that may be nearly impossible to eradicate by "normal" means and effort. Let's stir this pot up on a "slow" gardening day.

jolj....I like your effort to ferret out more truth and not just wilt under pressure.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.,USA (My Page) on
    Sat, Feb 12, 11 at 20:43

thanks wayne 5,I am sorry I let my temper get the best of me. I do not like people who say" If you do not follow my rules, then you are not what you say you are."
I Knew a woodworker who claimed that his woodwork was better then other, because he used no power tools,just hand tools.
I thought that he did not raise the trees & throw them, cut the lumber on a hand saw. Where will this insane, I do it better than you , stop.
Now I am going to compost my soap box.
michael357
I would try the safe way first, clear plastic or heavy mulch or vinegar(20% acid) solution or salt water. Salt will kill the soil food web so be careful.
I only know about Round up because I know many people who use it. I know one gardener(not organic) who uses it to weed his sweet corn, with out killing the corn. I do not know how he can have that much control. I would have killed the whole row. I called the company (RU) about killing
eastern poison oak with BLACK label RU( I hate the stuff), not in my garden.
They told me I could not plant edible plants in the area for 12 months. It was in the woods, but I decide any thing that strong was not for me. That was 4 years ago, the poison oak is doing good, I just stay away from it.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Finally, you realize that a symbiotic relation between you, the gardener, and bind weed is inevitable. Become one with the bind weed. See the bind weed for what it is, a lovely little twiner with violet and white blooms. Pull some, toss some mulch down, keep it at bay. Pop $20 for a copper hoop and sign and write Convolvulus arvensis sub sp. "fairy bracelet" and put it in the middle of your display. Then take a nap in the hammock with a cold one.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

If you don't want to spray things with RoundUp try this. Buy the undiluted stuff and paint it onto the leaves of the offending plant with a small brush. I had a small elm tree among my roses. Tried to pull it up but it had too much root. I cut it off and it came back the following year. One painting with RoundUp and it is gone. The roses showed no harmful affect.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.,USA (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 13, 11 at 17:41

Careful, the organic police will take your organic gardener permit away for 4 years!
albert 135, I had friends who grew flowers use that trick, too.
Seems to work well for them, but it may cause climate change.
I am not sure but it seem every thing we do these days causes something bad. The new fab is to say stop that or the earth will fry...... or is it freeze now?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Here is a link to Univ. of CA Integrated Pest Management page. They take a pragmatic view and recommend chemical controls only as a last resort and applied very carefully. They have a lot of good info on Bindweed control. Good luck. Steve.

Here is a link that might be useful: UC IPM Bindweed Page


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Notwithstanding all the commotion about being organic, bindweed is a plant that seems to defy all organic attempts to eradicate it. If you are not officially growing plants or produce under an organic banner, then you are free to do what you need to do to your garden. I am not certified organic. My interest is in simply doing my best to avoid the synthetic chemicals in common use. Since 2001 I have done pretty well at it, but I have never faced bindweed in my garden. I've seen it in action and it is incredible!

I have read of a very success approach using RU. The method is minimally 'invasive' to the organic nature of the garden. Read on and see what you think.

Bindweed apparently is an interconnected plant. The method that seems to work is to lift out a strand of bindweed and place it into a shallow container of RU. Allow the bindweed to sit in the container for several days and absorb the RU. Then observe what happens. From what I read, you should see bindweed dying all over the garden.

Yes this approach uses the dreaded RU, but you are not spraying it willy nilly over the entire yard. In fact this selective approach should allow your regular garden to go on unaffected by the RU app.

I would be interested in reading more results from regular folks.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Those of us that have been organic gardeners/farmers for many years and understand what organic garening/farmiong is all about, the non use of synthetic and unsustainable practices, do not and will not use any glyphosate product and would consider anyone that does as not organic.
There is no good reason to use that stuff if you claim to be an organic gardener/farmer.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

The statement was made that applying RoundUp by letting a part of a weed soak in a container of the liquid " In fact this selective approach should allow your regular garden to go on unaffected by the RU app."

This statement ignores the scientific studies that the RoundUp can leave the roots of the infected plant, travel through the soil, and be taken up by the roots of other plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: thread in weed forum


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Henry, I think you are confused on two points.

1. In reading the full litany of that link it is my opinion that you lost the argument handily to JAYK. Did you think you had the more convincing support? JAYK really knows his RoundUp. I've never seen him lose a discussion including many with me. I've learned more from him about RoundUp than 99% of Gardenweb writers. In your circumstance, there may be a few scientists who have been able to cobble together a situation where RoundUp transferred out from the roots of one plant, through the soil and tens of thousands of microbes trying to decompose the RoundUp, up to the roots of a completely different species of plant; however, that does not account for JAYK's point of the near universal success of the chemical for more than 40 years.

2. This is not a scientific journal refereed by scholarly peers. It is a collection of amateur hobbyists trying to solve problems immediately before they get out of hand. With bindweed, time is of the essence. People here share what we have experienced and what we have seen/read. The hope is that the hive will eventually come to realize what works even if we do not know or care why it works. All of us are free to make decisions which may disagree with you and the few scientists you agree with. I'm not saying we should not be persuaded by science, but there is an awful lot to be said for millions of anecdotal observations.

While I agree with kimmsr, the question was asked here and I see no reason to censor the discussion from the organic community. If anything this community should be informed as to why they are not using chemicals.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

dchall_san_antonio, Google Scholar is open to all interested readers. It presents scientific papers that have passed the scrutiny of reviewers and the editor. It also tells which papers have cited each paper and gives the links to these more recent papers.

I am interested if anyone has found any reviewed scientific papers that challenge the 2006 conclusion that roundup leaves the roots, goes into the soil, and can be absorbed by the roots of neighboring plants.

--------------------------------------

The 2006 link given in the other thread apparently has been changed. Below is the new one. That paper has now been cited by 31 more recent papers.

I can only give one long link per post, but the readers of this thread may find the 2009 scientific paper with the following title interesting (one of the 31 cited as quoting the 2006 paper):

"Glyphosate in the rhizosphere��"Role of waiting times and different glyphosate binding forms in soils for phytotoxicity to non-target plants"

Here is a link that might be useful: 2006 paper


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Table 3.8 of the very recent M.S.Thesis reports that (hand) wiping with glyphosate of the weed Dogbane damaged 28 % of the desired Blueberry at one location and 63 % at a second location.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dec 2010 MS Thesis


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Well, Henry, there is likely a smallish translocation of Roundup in the soil, but the question remains: What would you suggest for the problem presented concerning bindweed?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Recently, flaming has been studied ane positive results (90% dry matter reduction) were reported.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dec 2010 Scientific Study U. of Nebraska


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Some may be interested in this.
ISIS Report 21/02/11

Emergency! Pathogen New to Science Found in Roundup Ready GM Crops?
#########################################################

USDA senior scientist sends "emergency" warning to US Secretary of Agriculture
Tom Vilsack on a new plant pathogen in Roundup Ready GM soybean and corn that
may be responsible for high rates of infertility and spontaneous abortions in
livestock. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho

Please distribute widely and forward to your elected representatives

An open letter appeared on the Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance founded and run
by Judith McGeary to save family farms in the US [1, 2]. The letter, written
by Don Huber, professor emeritus at Purdue University, to Secretary of
Agriculture Tom Vilsack, warns of a pathogen "new to science" discovered by "a
team of senior plant and animal scientists". Huber says it should be treated as
an "emergency'', as it could result in "a collapse of US soy and corn export
markets and significant disruption of domestic food and feed supplies."

The letter appeared to have been written before Vilsack announced his decision
to authorize unrestricted commercial planting of GM alfalfa on 1 February, in
the hope of convincing the Secretary of Agriculture to impose a moratorium
instead on deregulation of Roundup Ready (RR) crops.

The new pathogen appears associated with serious pervasive diseases in plants -
sudden death syndrome in soybean and Goss' wilt in corn - but its suspected
effects on livestock is alarming. Huber refers to "recent reports of
infertility rates in dairy heifers of over 20%, and spontaneous abortions in
cattle as high as 45%."

This could be the worst nightmare of genetic engineering that some scientists
including me have been warning for years [3] (see Genetic Engineering Dream or
Nightmare, ISIS publication): the unintended creation of new pathogens through
assisted horizontal gene transfer and recombination.

Huber writes in closing: "I have studied plant pathogens for more than 50 years.
We are now seeing an unprecedented trend of increasing plant and animal diseases
and disorders. This pathogen may be instrumental to understanding and solving
this problem. It deserves immediate attention with significant resources to
avoid a general collapse of our critical agricultural infrastructure."

The complete letter is reproduced below.

Dear Secretary Vilsack:

A team of senior plant and animal scientists have recently brought to my
attention the discovery of an electron microscopic pathogen that appears to
significantly impact the health of plants, animals, and probably human beings.
Based on a review of the data, it is widespread, very serious, and is in much
higher concentrations in Roundup Ready (RR) soybeans and corn-suggesting a link
with the RR gene or more likely the presence of Roundup. This organism appears
NEW to science!

This is highly sensitive information that could result in a collapse of US soy
and corn export markets and significant disruption of domestic food and feed
supplies. On the other hand, this new organism may already be responsible for
significant harm (see below). My colleagues and I are therefore moving our
investigation forward with speed and discretion, and seek assistance from the
USDA and other entities to identify the pathogen's source, prevalence,
implications, and remedies.

We are informing the USDA of our findings at this early stage, specifically due
to your pending decision regarding approval of RR alfalfa. Naturally, if either
the RR gene or Roundup itself is a promoter or co-factor of this pathogen, then
such approval could be a calamity. Based on the current evidence, the only
reasonable action at this time would be to delay deregulation at least until
sufficient data has exonerated the RR system, if it does.

For the past 40 years, I have been a scientist in the professional and military
agencies that evaluate and prepare for natural and manmade biological threats,
including germ warfare and disease outbreaks. Based on this experience, I
believe the threat we are facing from this pathogen is unique and of a high risk
status. In layman's terms, it should be treated as an emergency.

A diverse set of researchers working on this problem have contributed various
pieces of the puzzle, which together presents the following disturbing scenario:

Unique Physical Properties This previously unknown organism is only visible
under an electron microscope (36,000X), with an approximate size range equal to
a medium size virus. It is able to reproduce and appears to be a micro-fungal-
like organism. If so, it would be the first such micro-fungus ever identified.
There is strong evidence that this infectious agent promotes diseases of both
plants and mammals, which is very rare.

Pathogen Location and Concentration It is found in high concentrations in
Roundup Ready soybean meal and corn, distillers meal, fermentation feed
products, pig stomach contents, and pig and cattle placentas.

Linked with Outbreaks of Plant Disease The organism is prolific in plants
infected with two pervasive diseases that are driving down yields and farmer
income-sudden death syndrome (SDS) in soy, and Goss' wilt in corn. The pathogen
is also found in the fungal causative agent of SDS (Fusarium solani fsp
glycines).

Implicated in Animal Reproductive Failure Laboratory tests have confirmed the
presence of this organism in a wide variety of livestock that have experienced
spontaneous abortions and infertility. Preliminary results from ongoing research
have also been able to reproduce abortions in a clinical setting.

The pathogen may explain the escalating frequency of infertility and spontaneous
abortions over the past few years in US cattle, dairy, swine, and horse
operations. These include recent reports of infertility rates in dairy heifers
of over 20%, and spontaneous abortions in cattle as high as 45%.

For example, 450 of 1,000 pregnant heifers fed wheatlege experienced
spontaneous abortions. Over the same period, another 1,000 heifers from the
same herd that were raised on hay had no abortions. High concentrations of the
pathogen were confirmed on the wheatlege, which likely had been under weed
management using glyphosate.

Recommendations In summary, because of the high titer of this new animal
pathogen in Roundup Ready crops, and its association with plant and animal
diseases that are reaching epidemic proportions, we request USDA's participation
in a multi-agency investigation, and an immediate moratorium on the deregulation
of RR crops until the causal/predisposing relationship with glyphosate and/or RR
plants can be ruled out as a threat to crop and animal production and human
health.

It is urgent to examine whether the side-effects of glyphosate use may have
facilitated the growth of this pathogen, or allowed it to cause greater harm to
weakened plant and animal hosts. It is well-documented that glyphosate promotes
soil pathogens and is already implicated with the increase of more than 40 plant
diseases; it dismantles plant defenses by chelating vital nutrients; and it
reduces the bioavailability of nutrients in feed, which in turn can cause animal
disorders. To properly evaluate these factors, we request access to the relevant
USDA data.

I have studied plant pathogens for more than 50 years. We are now seeing an
unprecedented trend of increasing plant and animal diseases and disorders. This
pathogen may be instrumental to understanding and solving this problem. It
deserves immediate attention with significant resources to avoid a general
collapse of our critical agricultural infrastructure.

Sincerely,

COL (Ret.) Don M. Huber Emeritus Professor, Purdue University APS Coordinator,
USDA National Plant Disease Recovery System (NPDRS)

References

1. "Researcher: Glyphosate (Roundup) or Roundup Ready Crops May Cause
Animal Miscarriages", Jill Richardson, La Vida Locavore, 18 February 2011
http://www.lavidalocavore.org/diary/4523

2. "Researcher: Glyphosate (Roundup) or Roundup Ready Crops May Cause Animal
Miscarriages", 18 February 2011, http://farmandranchfreedom.org/gmo-miscarriages

3. Ho MW. Genetic Engineering Dream of Nightmare? The Brave New World of Bad
Science and Big Business, Third World Network, Gateway Books, MacMillan,
Continuum, Penang, Malaysia, Bath, UK, Dublin, Ireland, New York, USA, 1998,
1999, 2007 (reprint with extended Introduction). http://www.i-
sis.org.uk/genet.php

Read the rest of this article on the ISIS website
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/newPathogenInRoundupReadyGMCrops.php
========================================================
This article can be found on the I-SIS website at
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/newPathogenInRoundupReadyGMCrops.php

All new articles are also announced on our RSS feed
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/feed.xml

ISIS website is now archived by the British Library as part of UK national
documentary heritage

If you like this original article from the Institute of
Science in Society, and would like to continue receiving
articles of this calibre, please consider making a donation
or purchase on our website

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/ISISappeal.php

ISIS is an independent, not-for-profit
organisation dedicated to providing critical public
information on cutting edge science, and to promoting social
accountability and ecological sustainability in science.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing list
unsubscribe at
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/unsubscribe

or email unsubscribe@i-sis.org.uk
========================================================
CONTACT DETAILS
Please see http://www.i-sis.org.uk/contact.php

MATERIAL ON THIS SITE MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED IN ANY FORM
WITHOUT EXPLICIT PERMISSION. FOR PERMISSION, PLEASE
CONTACT ISIS at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/contact2.php


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Reuters News Service has written an article about the last post concerning what Plant pathologist and retired Purdue University professor Don Huber is claimed to have written.

I use the words "is claimed" because in a Google search I found one article that suggests that the clain that such a letter exists may be a fraud. This article stated "A call to the USDA Office of the Executive Secretariat (OES) was unable to locate any letter of correspondence, or email, from Dr. Don M. Huber to Secretary Vilsack since December of 2010. Within this time frame, the Secretary of Agriculture did not receive correspondence from Dr. Huber." (The following is the link with a space added in the middle as without the space the link would throw off the formatting; but if you cut and past into your web address box and then remove the space, you should be able to read the full article regarding suspected fraud.)

http://cookingupastory.com/purported-letter- from-dr-don-huber-to-secretary-vilsack-possibly-a-fraud

H. Kuska comment. However, Reuters states: "USDA officials declined to comment about the letter's contents." This appears to confirm that a letter was received. (I would expect that a professional organization such as Reuters would have made it clear to USDA as to the time period they were interested in.)

This will be interesting to follow. (I have filled out the Google form to inform me of any further papers on this subject.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Reuters article


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I do not know if I missed the following quote in the Reuter's article or if they revised it after I posted about it.

""We're reviewing it, and will respond directly to Dr. Huber, rather than responding through the media," said USDA spokesman Andre Bell."

This statement appears to remove all doubt about whether such a letter was sent by Dr. Huber and received by the USDA.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I have received a large number of links from my " Google Alerts" (using the keywords "glyphosate" and "Huber")

So far the one linked to below seems (to me) to be the most balanced.

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Two conflicting views of the situation.

http://www.no-tillfarmer.com/pages/News---Growers-Urged-To-Prepare-For-Disease-Problems.php

http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/huber-pathogen-roundup-ready-crops.aspx


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Well guys I have a personal way of dealing with this organically. First, I have a great rear-rototiller that I set to till about 2-3 inches down. It works marvelously and I can easily restore 1 acre taken over by weeds within a couple days. Second where the rototiller is too wide (such as in getting in between plants), I use a blow torch (like they sell on here http://www.eweedcontrol.com/ ) with which I touch just the weeds leaves and in a couple of days everything dies. Of course there are always some remnants coming from seeds or whatnots, but I wouldn't say that it amounts more than 1-2% of the weeds that were previously there. And all that without using one ounce of RU.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I wouldn't want to use roundup in the garden for normal weeding by a long ways.

In case of certain perennial hucksters like poison ivy, Canada thistles, or bindweed, it might make some sense sometimes to get rid of those.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

the main thrust of this thread (despite the hoaxes and rants) has been a call for the "organic" purists to propose an alternative solution to using RU for controlling a massive, well-entrenched, urban infestation of Field Bindweed. To date, no such solution has emerged.

hand weeding, mulching, etc. work well (appropriate to investment) for the occasional instance of bindweed, but cannot begin to cope with a half an acre of crop-choking vines that appeared in my new garden after i was unexpectedly gone for a week in early July. i am a patient, no-chemical spraying, urban farmer with years of experience managing many kinds of weeds (and other pests) in many settings AND ten 8- to 10-hours days, on my knees, PULLING weeds in the past two weeks, but i have never seen the enormous devastation of a beautiful garden by bindweed that i'm experiencing now, in my first year at a new garden property. i feel perhaps even more overwhelmed than girlndocs did when she started this thread over five years ago.

it is very disappointing that those that insist they have some sort of ownership of the concept and application of terms like organic gardening/farming have no better recommendation to fellow gardeners/farmers that are pleading for a solution than the glossy, meaningless rhetoric that has punctuated this thread. i'm forced to agree with one poster - call me any name you like, the bindweed's just gotta go, even if i have to go buy some glyphosate to survive.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

The following was stated: "even if i have to go buy some glyphosate to survive."
------------------------
H. Kuska comment. It is interesting that you selected the word "survive", if you are going to apply glyphosate over a half acre, are you considering the possibilty that there may be long term health effects to you, your family, and your neighbors?
--------------------
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161813X11000301
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
The following was stated: "it is very disappointing that those that insist they have some sort of ownership of the concept and application of terms like organic gardening/farming have no better recommendation to fellow gardeners/farmers that are pleading for a solution than the glossy, meaningless rhetoric that has punctuated this thread."
-------------------------
H.Kuska reply. ????? I posted the following, (which you have not discussed): " Posted by henry_kuska z5 OH (kuska@neo.rr.com) on Thu, Feb 24, 11 at 0:10

Recently, flaming has been studied and positive results (90% dry matter reduction) were reported.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dec 2010 Scientific Study U. of Nebraska

Here is a link that might be useful: Dec 2010 Scientific Study U. of Nebraska


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Flaming is one method that could be used even though it uses non renewable resources to accomplish the job. It would be much more preferable then poisoning this planet even more then it is already.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Newbie here. We moved to a house with very established bindweed and thistle last year and, being entirely overwhelmed by the move, the bindweed went to seed.

This year, with help from this thread, I'm taking a three-pronged approach:
1) weeding baby bindweeds CONSTANTLY
2) black matting in the area where we planted the new plants and
3) consistent round up application - round up directly on sprouts and the weakened round up in the jar approach nearer to the main root.

Thus far - and it's June - the bindweed has been manageable and the garden has not been taken over by this PITA weed. Hope to have this under control this year.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

2013...still waiting on Dr. Huber to actually submit his research...or have it peer reviewed...or actual pictures of his "maybe it's a fungus, maybe it's a virus" electron microscope scans...


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Though it may not be researched thoroughly by agroscientists, I believe there is a lot to the idea that serious weed infestations can be managed by changing the balance of soil cations, generally calcium. I have found Charles Walter's book "Weeds, control without poisons" to be right on.

For those of you with serious bindweed problems and a willingness to consider what Walters says about it:

"Low calcium, phosphorous, potassium and pH are benchmarks. Most creeping-vine-type weeds have fast growing rhizomes that develop to completely entrap the soil nutrient system in and around all the clusters of organic residues. The biological energies contained in these foul, rotting residues support numerous dominating hormone enzyme systems that are 'just right' for the vine weed families, and 'not just right' for other species of soil and plant life".

He goes on to say that a crippled decay system caused either by very dry sandy soil or overly wet clayey soil are often involved with a bindweed problem. Interestingly the only place I have a problem with it is in central florida, where of course the soil is exceedingly dry and there is very little normal decay in the soil.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I was just out pulling my very first bucket of bindweed of the new season, and saw this thread. A coincidence, or what?

Each season, I spray it if I can, when the rest of the garden gets really going and its difficult to spray, I pull it - the famous coffee-beer* method, and finally, sometime in late July, I give up - succumb to the Zen of it all.

My bindweed story of 2013 comes from the heavily mulched vegetable beds, where the weed managed to get through 12 inches of chopped leaves and grass clippings. Pull it out, and there is a foot-long strand of white stem as it pushed its way through to the sunlight.

* pour cup of coffee. Go pull bind weed until it gets too hot. Later, when it cools down a bit, grab a beer and go pull more bind weed.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Dave, in your warm-season climate it is probably a similar case to florida winter: very dry soil conditions and reduced decay?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Pretty much, Pat. I put newspaper mulch out, cover it with grass clippings to make it look a little better, and that will last for several years - like eight.

I can't find it now, but I read an interesting study about how bind weed and prairie dogs are now in some symbiotic relationship - bindweed is one thing that grows like a bandit around prairie dog colonies, its is not very palatable unless its very new growth in the spring, which sustains the rodents in the early spring. Then later in the season, because its not palatable for cattle or horses, they don't don't wander through the colonies messing up their mounds.

Here we have prime bind weed / prairie dog habitat.....


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I have found a possible organic solution to killing bind weed with out using round up. I have used the following solution and it works very well at killing thistle plants. I have tested it on the bindweed in my yard and it seems to be doing well at killing it.

Items needed:
1 gallon general purpose sprayer.
1 gallon distilled vinegar (generic brand works fine, also cheaper)
2/3 cup of salt
A couple drops of dish soap.

Mix together in sprayer and provide a liberal dose on any weeds that you want to kill. Be careful not to spray on any plants that you want to keep. I find that using a sprayer with an adjustable nozzle allows you to either cover a wide area or pin point just the plant you want to get rid of.

It is best to apply during the morning on a dry day so the plants it drink up. Since there are no harmful chemicals in this solution it is safe to use in your garden. The only side effect I have noticed so far is that you have a craving for fish and chips after you use it.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

What is "general purpose sprayer"?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Nice to see some threads never go away.

Since I wrote here on Wed, Feb 23, 11 at 17:02, i have purchased a new home in George West, TX. It came with almost an acre, some of which was the previous owner's 30x40 garden. Nothing is left of the garden except one lone bougainvillaea. That plant is a tangle of bindweed, so I have my own little laboratory.

I tried putting some RoundUp in a bud vase and dropping a couple strands of bindweed into the liquid at the bottom. A week later the bindweed looked normal. 2 weeks later and it still looked normal. However, about 3 weeks to a month later it died. The shrub was unaffected. Looking around I noticed all the bindweed on the bougainvillaea had died. I also noticed that there was some dead bindweed on the chain link fence, 30 feet away, that I had never noticed before. That garden is a sticker patch where I am encouraging the St Augustine to fill. For now I don't hang out there to make observations. I do see the bindweed is back for 2013. Now I want to try the vinegar and salt.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

The fact that bindweed is only present in certain frequently-disturbed soils is a clue to possible control methods.

Hint: glyphosate is not the answer.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

You can control bindweed with cultivation, but you have to get at very early in it's growth...which is hard to do in most active gardens since it's not going to come up all at once very early in the season.

Heavy mulching works, but you need to keep it heavy enough that it blocks light and it takes years (2-3+ years). Even then you have to watch out for latent seeds which can last for a few years more if you remove the mulch.

Most chemical (non-organic) herbicides are control methods rather than eradication. Glyphosate and 2,4-D work, but it takes weeks...and it has to be applied while the plant is in an active growing stage...and it will have to be applied more than once in a season. Pre-emergent chemical controls are also spotty in effectiveness and are a better control method rather than eradication.

It's a really crappy weed to have around. Established stands are a pain in the ass. Spotty occurrences are easier to control, but still no fun. It seeds like crazy and it has a root system that's about as crazy as the amount it seeds. It's a real nutrient stealer and crazy grower.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

From your description, one would suppose a weed that able would have taken over the temperate latitudes and eaten our collective lunch. Why hasn't it?

That it has not is a clue to managing it. Poison is never the answer for dealing with infestations of plants or insects.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Not so sure about 'cultivation' - if you want a real mess, run a 7 hp tiller over a bind-weed infested garden. Each little rootlet/piece of stem will grow a new plant, and ... if you fed the soil by tilling in manure and compost and water it well, you end up with an 8 inch thick mat of bind weed. Ask me how I know....:-).

You never get rid of it, the issue is control. A thick layer of mulch does wonders - by the time it works its way through that, weeks have gone by, and its easy to spot and pull.

Put up one of those little copper plant tags with Convolvulus arvensis var."Fairy Bondage" and pretend you planted it.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

ed-[Unforgivably rude. Removed.]

This post was edited by albert_135 on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 16:25


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Cultivation isn't a good idea for "infested" plots...it's only good for early growth bindweed. It sets crazy huge roots when it has age on it...really broad/deep.

Cultivation isn't a 1-time-and-done method, either. Very few people use it for control unless it's new to the plot...even if it's a yearly thing.

Most people use chemical controls followed by hand applications of what comes up later.

"From your description, one would suppose a weed that able would have taken over the temperate latitudes and eaten our collective lunch. Why hasn't it?"

...mostly because in field plots (where it's a noxious invasive in many many states) they are taken care before they take over fields. Palmer amaranth and Johnson grass are more pesky in fields than bindweed (and seed/spread a lot easier), but you'll still find bindweed on many field margins and buffers growing all over the rest of the plants in the area. It is very good at not being crowded out by anything and reaching over existing plants to spread.

The reason it's a hated weed is because it takes a long time to die out even with chemical applications. It doesn't respond to glyphosate/2,4-D in a manner of days to a week like many common weeds...takes 2-3x longer.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

This thread, like many here, has started as a home-scale debate and ended with a farm-scale debate.

On a gardening scale, one simply deals with it as with any pernicious weed: you keep after it, or you don't grow crops. People kept themselves fed before glyphosate (that's where Albert's analogy fails - before antibiotics, a severe bacterial infection was fatal).

On the farm scale, it's simply about money, as always. If applying glyphosate multiple times is cheaper than applying the amendments and changing cultivation timing and practices and/or rotations to reduce a weed problem (which of course it is in the short run), that's what will be done.

There is not a single common weed where you won't find gardeners and farmers somewhere saying it's the worst thing on the planet and cannot be controlled without this and that poison. And yet a few miles or counties away it's a different weed that can't be dealt with.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

"Field bindweed has a large economic impact in production agriculture. Bindweed can reduce wheat yields up to 30%, barley yields up to 65%, and sorghum yields up to 48% (Westra et al. 1992). Bindweed can also increase production costs by increasing time and fuel spent on tilling the ground or spraying with herbicides such as glyphosate or 2,4-D."

For the home gardener, its more of a minor hassle - as long as you keep working at it. Leave it alone for two months and then you have a real problem.

Its more a psychological thing - most weeds, you pull 'em, they're gone. Not this.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Dave, in this wetter climate, during the growing season if you leave anything alone for two months you will have a holy mess: red-rooted pigweed will be five feet high with trunk an inch across; ditto for lamb's quarter. Greenbrier would overtake certain areas of my home garden in that time; passionflower chokes the fruit trees (note that this OP starts out with a complaint about bindweed choking rose bushes); sun choke is madly invasive - I've been pulling the shoots out of some beds every few days since April; let's not even talk about the bamboo from hell.

Other places it's kudzu, fireweed, whatever. I don't buy it that a particular weed is only controllable with glyphosate, if that were true then every invasive weed could only controlled with glyphosate.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I will like to help you all with your weeds
I have a fast green solution to killing weeds
Just use sea sait.

Go to www.freefertilizer.com

see how it works

Here is a link that might be useful: Free Fertilizer Inc


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

No matter what glyphosate products are anathema to an organic grower. The use of them means that you cannot call your self an organic grower for a least 3 years after you stop that use.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I mulch the heck out of my vegetable garden with both polypropylene weed barrier in the pathways and 6 " thick grass clippings over the soil where the plants are, and I still can pull a bucket of bind weed, lambs quarters, wild purslane, thistle, dandelion every few days. Any of those weeds will exploit the tiniest opportunity.

Now if you don't mulch, you either spend your summer hoeing weeds or you give up.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Luckily with my sandy soils I can pull the non-grassy weeds with little effort - less than hoeing, or mulching. I guess if I ever managed to plant in neat rows I'd be more of a hoer (does that sound funny?).

Things like bindweed are probably much more daunting in a wet heavy soil. Speaking of purslane I am finding again this year that it is a dandy living mulch that does not seem to reduce crop growth much.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

pnbrown, " I am finding again this year"

Maybe in a couple more years it will be the crop....


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Wayne, I don't know what you mean by that.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

A heavy concentration of vinegar & salt should kill them.After applying,sprinkle baking soda for a even beter chance.If they are very close to the plants,just foilar spray & try not to get it on your plants.It will fry whatever it gets on.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

We finally had a cooler cloudy day after weeks of record and near-record temps, and I got on the bindweed in the big front flower bed.

Two hours later, I'd filled the 7 gallon weed container 3 times, stuffing the bindweed vines down.

This is the only bed on the property that isn't heavily mulched. Ah yup.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

And yet, the bindweed must be supressing other weeds that would also be problematic, were conditions not so ideal for bindweed.

Dave, just for kicks, how about dosing an infested area with gypsum, and see what happens over a year or so?


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

I could do that - I was at the farm store yesterday and they were selling gypsum in 50 lb sacks.

I don't think the bindweed is suppressing other weeds, its just that this particular flower bed was "designed" to have lots of daffodils, tulips, and other bulbs early in the spring, and as that foliage dies back, that space would be replaced by sedum, re-seeding annuals, ice plant, and other low ground covers. As that foliage dies back, and the perennial ground covers start to grow, here comes the bindweed.

So picture trying to weed bindweed out of this w/o ripping up half the plants.......


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Perennial beds can be tough, for sure.

I was thinking more of an area where you can till in a good dose of gypsum, to see if the increased calcium will change the game as far as the bindweed dominance goes.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Just today I was touring someone's large garden and saw an area pretty severely overrun with bindweed. The first really bad infestation I have seen in the region. My field is just down the road from hers in identical substrate. I have never had any serious trouble with bindweed.

What is the difference? Her field had the topsoil stripped and sold years back, and she started cultivating there only 3 years ago. Lots of imported compost and "topsoil". IOW, a new and unbalanced situation which has apparently made conditions perfect for bindweed. The worst of it was in and around a high tunnel, indicating that high heat is part of what bindweed needs. I asked if she added calcium and she said she limed in the beginning but I'd be willing to bet Ca is still low.

From upthread:

" but i have never seen the enormous devastation of a beautiful garden by bindweed that i'm experiencing now, in my first year at a new garden property"

Note again, a new situation. Unbalanced soil for crops, perfect for bindweed in a hot region. Change a factor, and some other weed will dominate.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Entropy 2013, 15 1445

Please read :
This paper presents an exhaustive review of the toxic effects of the herbicide, glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup®, in humans, and demonstrates how glyphosate’s adverse effects on the gut microbiota, in conjunction with its established ability to inhibit the activity of cytochrome P450
enzymes, and its likely impairment of sulfate transport, can remarkably explain a great number of the diseases and conditions that are prevalent in the modern industrialized world. Its effects are insidious, because the long-term effects are often not immediately apparent. The pathologies to which glyphosate could plausibly contribute, through its known biosemiotic effects, include inflammatory bowel disease,
obesity, depression, ADHD, autism, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, multiple sclerosis, cancer, cachexia, infertility, and developmental malformations.

Glyphosate works synergistically with other factors, such as insufficient sun exposure, dietary deficiencies in critical nutrients such as sulfur and zinc, and synergistic exposure to other xenobiotics whose detoxification is impaired by glyphosate.

Given the known toxic effects of glyphosate reviewed here and the plausibility that they are negatively impacting health worldwide, it is imperative for more independent research to take place to validate the ideas presented here, and to take immediate action, if they are verified, to drastically curtail the use of glyphosate in agriculture. Glyphosate is likely to be pervasive in our food supply, and, contrary to being essentially nontoxic, it may in fact be the most biologically disruptive chemical in our environment.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Entropy is a horrible journal. If you have money, you can get published there. Entropy is a "journal" that only publishes online and covers 90+ topics. If you have the money, they'll "print" you. It's a popular place for special interest groups and industry shills to publish their works because legit journals refuse to publish them. PubMed refuses to index or recognize Entropy...which is a hell of a red flag given that they index pretty much every scientifically legit journal in the world having almost 25 million papers in their searchable database.

Stephanie Seneff, a co-author of that paper, has 0 training or education in agriculture, chemistry, or biology. She's a popular proponent of selling sulfur supplements as a cure-all as her claim to fame...which, coincidentally (aka, not at all) she summarizes her effects on P450s being sulfate inhibited as the main issue of the problem here even though that's a stretch at best, and ignorant to wishful thinking at worst. The other co-author has no training in biology, himself...and is an environmental chemical contaminate expert chiming in on biological effects.

The paper in question you've quoted "Glyphosate’s Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome" has been widely panned, fwiw. It contains 0% actual research by the authors and is a accumulation of parts of cherry picked studies done by others...some of it misinterpreted. The study references various retracted, withdrawn, deleted, and/or discredited studies...most specifically the "rat study," the "Wakefield autism study," various unsubstatiated papers such as the "leaky gut syndrome (which doesn't exist, except in alternative medicine "woo" lore)" paper, and past discredited papers (also found on Entropy) by Seneff.

Also, fwiw, almost anything you put into your system is going to disrupt or change the action of one of the nearly-60 identified (and more not known) cytochrome P450 enzymes found in the human body temporarily as they act upon a substance...they are one of the main mechanisms of breaking down medications and substances entering the body. This study covers (and applies to humans) p450s not even found in humans for some of it's points. The authors don't feel the need to separate (or may not know the difference) this fact, though. It doesn't take in account (or mention) experimental dosage amounts vs likely contaminate levels on many points.

Saying "P450" is kinda like saying "sugars"...fructose is different than lactose, is different from glucose, is different from maltose, is different from lactulose, etc etc...

This post was edited by nc-crn on Thu, Sep 5, 13 at 16:08


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

And yet, why not take the cautious route and presume that a substance that ultimately kills plants from root-tip to leaf-tip may not be very good for soil life at the very least? And what is bad for soil life is ultimately bad for us....


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

A cautious route is one thing...a sulfur-suppliment shilling person with no training in biological science somehow coming to the conclusion that sulfate transport routes are disrupted in humans...in a paper published in a online-only "journal" that's pay-for-print...and PubMed refuses to index is another.

It's a fair cautious route to approach this paper with caution.

No legit journal would touch this paper.

PubMed and other index services refuse to touch Entropy "journal" entries because they're a pay-for-play clearing house for refused papers that other journals won't publish. They "publish" 90+ topics under their journal umbrella...which is an insanely broad scope.

If someone has an issue with Roundup/glyphosate there's many better places to look for information/studies/papers to build an argument against it's use than this particular paper.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 15:53


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

nc-crn makes statements without documentation. For example, he stated:

"No legit journal would touch this paper."

AND

"PubMed and other index services refuse to touch Entropy "journal" entries because they're a pay-for-play clearing house for refused papers that other journals won't publish.."

----------------------------------
It is correct that PubMed does not index them, but what documentation does he have for his "because". Is it possible that the reason is because Entropy publishes many/mostly non medical articles? I do not know. I do know that Google Abstracts does cover Entropy. Since he stated "other index services refuse to touch", I am asking: which other index services?

The following are PUBMED hits for Stephanie Seneff publications:

"Results: 5
Select item 22291727
1.Is the metabolic syndrome caused by a high fructose, and relatively low fat, low cholesterol diet?

Seneff S, Wainwright G, Mascitelli L.

Arch Med Sci. 2011 Feb;7(1):8-20. doi: 10.5114/aoms.2011.20598. Epub 2011 Mar 8.

PMID: 22291727 [PubMed] Free PMC Article
Related citations
Select item 22232053
2.Association of alzheimer disease pathology with abnormal lipid metabolism: the Hisayama study.

Mascitelli L, Seneff S, Goldstein MR.

Neurology. 2012 Jan 10;78(2):151; author reply 151-2. doi: 10.1212/WNL.0b013e318242b283. No abstract available.

PMID: 22232053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related citations
Select item 22098722
3.Might cholesterol sulfate deficiency contribute to the development of autistic spectrum disorder?

Seneff S, Davidson R, Mascitelli L.

Med Hypotheses. 2012 Feb;78(2):213-7. doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2011.10.026. Epub 2011 Nov 17.

PMID: 22098722 [PubMed - in process]
Related citations
Select item 21402242
4.Nutrition and Alzheimer's disease: the detrimental role of a high carbohydrate diet.

Seneff S, Wainwright G, Mascitelli L.

Eur J Intern Med. 2011 Apr;22(2):134-40. doi: 10.1016/j.ejim.2010.12.017. Epub 2011 Jan 26. Review.

PMID: 21402242 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related citations
Select item 15693733
5.Gene structure prediction using an orthologous gene of known exon-intron structure.

Seneff S, Wang C, Burge CB.

Appl Bioinformatics. 2004;3(2-3):81-90.

PMID: 15693733 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "

Here is a link that might be useful: PUBMED hits for Stephanie Seneff publications


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

-original post deleted-

I'm not getting into this again.

Sorry, Entropy isn't a respected journal in the industry (make that, 90+ industries) no matter how much you'd like it to be relevant.

Source: the real world of research science (c) 2013

You might enjoy this more critical response to both the issue at hand and the journal in question...make sure to check out the comments section for even more fun times...

http://scholarlyoa.com/2013/05/16/more-controversy-over-open-access-publisher-mdpi/

Here's one of their more "famous" published papers...

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/1

Google the title of it ("Theory of the Origin, Evolution, and Nature of Life") for critical reviews of the article. Pseudoscience at it's best...

Here's a starting point in case you don't feel like firing up a search engine... http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/01/how-the-craziest-fing-theory-of-everything-got-published-and-promoted/

This post was edited by nc-crn on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 23:41


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Please note that nc-rm has not documented his early statements that I questioned on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 22:37.

His statement: "Source: the real world of research science (c) 2013" is not documentation. In the real world of research science, anyone who disputes something in a published, reviewed scientific paper has the opportunity to submit a follow up paper for review and possible publication. One can use Google Scholar with each of the 5 Stephanie Seneff publications that I reported in my post. For example for the first one: "Is the metabolic syndrome caused by a high fructose, and relatively low fat, low cholesterol diet?" has been cited by 18 more recent scientific publications. I will just select one (which has the full paper available, free) to see how Seneff's paper was utilized, cited). Her above paper is reference 15. This what was said that referenced paper 15:

"Oversecretion of potentially harmful adipocytokines, such as PAI-1, tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF-α) or visfatin, and hyposecretion of potentially beneficial adipocytokines, such as adiponectin, might be major mechanisms involved in lifestyle-related diseases, including diabetes mellitus, hyperlipidemia, hypertension and atherosclerosis, comprising the so called MetS [15, 16]."

Here is a link that might be useful: link to paper quoted that references one of Seneff's papers


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

You still don't seem to "get" that Entropy isn't taken very seriously within the research community no matter how much stuff I give you to research on your own...or examples...not to mention the fact I work in the research community and that isn't good enough for you (as if anything could be good enough).

...and for some reason you want to talk about other papers rather than one being talked about...or the journal being discussed.

This is a very typical discussion with you when it comes to things you want to champion (such as this journal, for some reason seeing as this is the 3rd time or so this has come up).

It always branches out to other things with your replies...and that's why I'm not getting sucked into another one. Once I reply, you ignore my reply and then add another point onto whatever is being discussed...usually something that's totally separate from the issue at hand while the initial point is lost in a downward spiral of never-ended subject changes.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

The following was stated by nc-crm: "...and for some reason you want to talk about other papers rather than one being talked about...or the journal being discussed."

H.Kuska comment: I have presented her other papers published in other journals in order to document that she is a respected scientist in this field.

------------------------------------------------

Further discussion of the fact that this paper was submitted and published in the journal Entropy.

Here is the link for the Entropy paper:
http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416

H.Kuska comment: Please notice that it is clearly labeled as a review. Thus the apparently critical statement by nc-crn: "It contains 0% actual research by the authors" is not pertinent - reviews by definition do not normally contain new research.

Also as stated at the beginning of the article: "(This article belongs to the Special Issue Biosemiotic Entropy: Disorder, Disease, and Mortality)".

The explanation for the Special Issue and the call for papers is given at:

http://www.mdpi.com/journal/entropy/special_issues/biosemiotic_entropy

My point can be summarized as: the author's published work in this area has been accepted by a number of different journals, and I can understand that she would judge it beneficial to participate in a special reviewed scientific specific issue with her peers in that area.

------------------------------------------------
Regarding the statement that I questioned earlier (and which nc-crn has ignored my request for him to document) "other index services refuse to touch Entropy "journal" entries".

H.Kuska comment: Why does someone make a statement if he is unable/unwilling to document it?

H.Kuska comment on the above statement: I routinely use 2 index services for my scientific literature searches. The first (Google Scholar) I aleady mention abstracted the paper. The second is Scirus http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/. Scirus also covered the paper under discussion.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I was trained to respect other scientists' viewpoints. That does not mean that I always agree with their conclusions. (We would not have to train future scientists if everything was understood.)

The following is in the link below (which I signed):
" Conclusion: When those with a vested interest attempt to sow unreasonable doubt around inconvenient results, or when governments exploit political opportunities by picking and choosing from scientific evidence, they jeopardize public confidence in scientific methods and institutions, and also put their own citizenry at risk. Safety testing, science-based regulation, and the scientific process itself, depend crucially on widespread trust in a body of scientists devoted to the public interest and professional integrity. If instead, the starting point of a scientific product assessment is an approval process rigged in favour of the applicant, backed up by systematic suppression of independent scientists working in the public interest, then there can never be an honest, rational or scientific debate."
http://independentsciencenews.org/health/seralini-and-science-nk603-rat-study-roundup/

Here is a link that might be useful: link for statement that I signed


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Related research paper...

http://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf

This pretty much clears everything up.


 o
RE: Of bindweed and Roundup

Careful RoundUp (big kill, little/no soil contact) use :
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/weeds/msg0222404021598.html # search: "container"

Biological controls:

1) Bindweed moth :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyta
http://www.arkive.org/four-spotted-moth/tyta-luctuosa/
Inhabits grasslands, and is usually found on south-facing slopes with patches of bare ground. It requires a source of the larval foodplant field bindweed (Convolvulus arvensis)

2) Bindweed gall mite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceria_malherbae
http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/Adams/weed/pdf/BindweedMite.pdf

Sources of biologicals (bindweed controls available to Colorado residents):
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef125.asp


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Organic Gardening Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here