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One of the best recipe 2

Posted by valerie_ru Russia (tsygikalo@mail.ru) on
Thu, Apr 15, 10 at 2:25

This thread is a continuation of the thread
One of the best recipe in Organic Gardening

Main idea is to use non-alcohol fermentation in the gardening based on the fermenting cereals grains. There are many ways of fermenting cereals to make beverages. But trying to be as simple as possible we came to this simple formula:

6 tbsp rye flour + 2 tbsp molasses + 1 gallon water, sit 3 days.
(author - Nandina)

This stuff is called on Russian kvas, Ill use this term for designation.

Chemical composition: lactic acid, acetic acid (vinegar), enzymes, vitamins, antioxidants.
Microbial population: lactic acid bacteria, yeasts.
Physical properties: acidic, white color if made without molasses.
Way to keep: closed under the lid or covered by plastic film if kept in an open barrel.
Behavior: tend to be more acidic with time.
Related theory: Effective Microorganisms

Kvas may be used in the garden directly for watering and sprinkling plants diluted with water in ratio 1:0, 1:1, 1:10, 1:100, 1:1000. Better to use more diluted and more often. But pure kvas may be applied too, without hurting.

Kvas may be used for fermenting everything else in the garden: weeds, fruits, peels, etc to make fermented plant extract (FPE). Just put them in the kvas and wait some days. Herbs increase their healing and antioxidant properties tens times after fermentation with kvas.

As a tool for insects, ferment garlic or/and pepper and/or any herbs used as repellent. Use in dilution 1:100 1:1000 for sprinkling plants every other week.

There are more advanced recipes of making kvas based on using malt, making sourdough bread in oven, etc. (in this case microbial population will have also photosynthetic bacteria). But this recipe is simple and good for beginners.
With the given information everybody can try it in the garden.


Follow-Up Postings:

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Grain

Valerie, did you add molasses or just flour and water?

Just flour and water.

Molasses or/and honey or/and sugar or/and malt or/and fruit juice or/and beet or/and carrots or/and herbs may be (or may be not) added in the end. Too much sweets makes fermentation slow. So, not too much "sugars", say 1 teaspoon per 1 liter. Then continue fermentation 1-3 days. Then "sweets" may be added again in small quantities.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Here are my observations so far. I have been applying kvas (4tbsp flour per gallon of water - let sit for 2 days) as a foliar spray and soil drench once a week for the last month. I've been applying it to 2 out of 3 eggplants and 1 out of 2 tomatillo plants that were transplanted in mid March. The eggplants receiving the kvas seem to be a little greener, a little bigger and have more flowers that bloomed earlier. The difference is very very minimal. The tomatillo plant that received kvas however, is significantly smaller but still very healthy and green. It strangely has more flowers and it set fruit a couple days earlier than the one not receiving kvas. So, for me, the results are very inconclusive and could easily be as the result of genetics of the seed. With such a small sample, it was to be expected I guess.

Now, last week I made a batch using the recipe that Nandina and Valerie have come to - 6 tblsp flour + 2 tblsp molasses per 1 gallon of water - let sit for 3 days. I used it with no dilution and only as a soil drench. This is obviously a very premature observation but promising nonetheless:

I had a number of squash plants that were lagging behind the rest significantly. They were in the same soil, and were treated exactly the same with regards to watering/fertilizer etc. They are much smaller, more pale etc and I have no idea why. Well after a week, they have grown significantly, turned much greener and look healthier. There could be so many other factors but I will now expand this experiment to other parts of my garden to see if it was as a result of the kvas.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Thank you.
Have you expected the soil? Has it changed? And what smells like?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by luke_oh zone 5 NE Ohio (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 17, 10 at 18:07

Valerie, I have about 2 1/2 gallons of rye flour and water that I started last summer when you first started this thread. I'll be able to evaluate the solution soon. Now I'm wondering if I should add some molasses? I think that last year you said no?. I'm a little confused as I have been from the beginning. Getting different messages.

Luke


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I've really enjoyed catching up and learning from this thread for the past few weeks. after my most recent batch of lactobacillus made through carandang's method runs out, i plan on using this method, which seems more cost efficient and less wasteful. I can attest to the addition of the lactobacillus to the soil (which seems to be part of what is in kvas). After one application to my hops plants, they have grown about an inch and a half in a matter of days. An elderberry plant that was dying looks like it may come back.

I was wondering about something though, and it may be more of a hassle and not needed. I noticed toward the beginning of the thread 1, it seemed that some were having issues with the mixture going bad, i'm assuming due to growth of the aerobic bacteria/yeasts, or something along those lines. Would you be able to better ensure success by boiling your water first for long enough to evaporate the oxygen from it, and then allowing it to cool and adding the rye flour to it? It may be easier just to make the sourdough, but for the sake of appeasing curiosity, what are your thoughts?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie,

It's hard to tell if the soil has changed. Most of my beds are native clay. It seems fluffier, but that could be because my compost is continually breaking down. It smells sweet but not much different from the soil that hasn't received kvas. I will continue to observe the soil, what should I be looking for?

Shlegminitism,

I've never had a problem with the mixture going bad. I think the people that were having trouble back then were not putting enough flour into the mixture because of some confusion with the recipe (gallons vs liters etc.). With this latest ratio of flour to water, there shouldn't be any problem.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Luke,
Rye flour and water solution is a basis. It can be used alone. It may be enhanced also by addition everything including molasses, just add there what you want, preferably "sweet", and ferment 1-7 days more. Simple sugars 1-2 days, herbs up to 7 days. But you can use it alone without everything else. Dilute in whater 1:10 - 1:100 and use for sprinkling and watering.

Would you be able to better ensure success by boiling your water first for long enough to evaporate the oxygen from it, and then allowing it to cool and adding the rye flour to it? It may be easier just to make the sourdough, but for the sake of appeasing curiosity, what are your thoughts?

I agree with you, boiling water is good. But I don't think it is necessary. Using sourdough starter is better for success.
How I make sourdogh starter?
I use mixture of rye flour and malt in ratio 1 tbsp of rye and 1 teaspoon of malt. Malt is used for sacharification (making sugars from starch). Then I add hot whater (really boiling) and keep in warm place 1 day covering it by counterpane. When it is cool, I add a grain of yeasts. After 1 day it is foam on the top and sourdough starter is acidic also due to lactobacteria. This starter can be kept long time in refregerator. Then it may be added to rye flour solution to ensure success and to ferment it faster. 1 tablespoon per gallon is enough. If you have no malt you can use molasses. This starter is a mixture of lactobacteria and yeasts. Fermentation container, where you make kvas, must be slightly open during fermentation. Yeasts make gas CO2 and thus kvas is "bubbling".

Kingcongos,
My soil under the plants which I water with kvas has strong fungus but pleasant smell. It is also lump when dry. Lumps are small, half of an inch.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Has anyone tried the fermentation mixture using maize as a starter?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I made it according to this recipe:


Mahewu

This is a fermented maize meal commonly consumed as a staple among black South Africans. It is traditionally prepared by adding one part of maize meal to 9 parts of boiling water. The suspension is cooked for 10 minutes, allowed to cool and then transferred to a fermentation container. At this stage, wheat flour (about 5% of the maize meal used) is added to serve as a source of inoculum. Fermentation occurs in a warm sunny place within 24 hrs. Streptococcus lactis is the main fermenting organism in traditionally prepared mahewu (Hesseltine, 1979).

Not bad but it has specific odour.

Here is a link that might be useful: FERMENTED CEREALS


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

For those who want to deal with fermentation more seriousely, I recommend this nice web-site.
It's simple science, nevertheless one have to knew something to be successful.

Here is a link that might be useful: PROCEDURE FOR BREWING A LACTO FERMENTED BEVERAGE


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Some other usage of kvas

Valerie,
I have a rain barrel that has a non-removable top and i can't wash it inside.
I am wondering if i add kvas to rain water in this barrel will bacteria clean walls of barrel?
If yes, how much kvas should be needed (this is 75 gallon
barrel).


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Good idea :-)
I've never made it but I think it must work.
Comparing with activated EM which is added do water in ponds and aquariums in ratio 1:10000 per month, it could be 300/10000=0.03 litre=30 cc (30 grams) per month. This is for prevention water bloom. Less than a half of cup.
I would begin with 0.5 litre per week and then per month. If it does not work than increase to 1 litre.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I am interested in this as I make a lot of rye sourdough to eat. It is good for my diabetes as it is a low GI food and whole grains. I have been using miracle grow and lady bugs with good success. Will this deter larger pests? will it affect my lady bugs? Will it make my veggies grow bigger?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

If you make rye sourdough bread you can make kvas directly from it. Cut bread on small pieces and put them in oven again to make crackers. Then put crackers in water to make kvas during 1-2 days. Use sour dough starter (a mixture of active lactobacilli and yeasts) in the beginning.

What is interesting, photosynthetic bacteria such as purple non-sulfur bacteria PNSB were found by scientists in the crust of sourdough bread and in the crackers. It may seems strange because temperature in oven exceeds 200-400C. But it's not strange if remember that these bacteria can live at high temperatures.

Pests and veggies.. Try kvas and tell us what you have seen.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

still use only once per week or everytime as a water substitute?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Start with small concentrations (1:100 or 1:10) if you water often. If you use irrigation system then 1:500 is good concentration. You will understand "how much is too much" after beginning to work with kvas.


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For those who want to dive in the subject deeper.
Read APNAN manual booklet.
I hope it can help to understand why the idea of using fermentation in gardening is great!
All genius ideas are simple.
Fermentation is one of them.

Here is a link that might be useful: APNAN manual booklet


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

all right, I have started my rye sourdough starter. See ya in two days!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I've made 4-5 batches of ryeflour-and-water-only kvas over the past month or so. Some of my starts do seem to have more lustre to their leaves the day after I give them some though I could just be seeing what I want to see. However, I have been putting kvas (about a 1:10 dilution) on only half of my peas and the ones that have received the kvas appear to have about 10%-20% more growth to them.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Thank you.
Has anybody used it on trees and shrubs?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Has anybody used it on trees and shrubs?

I've been giving diluted kvas to some newly-planted Cornus mas, flowering quinces, and a stauntonia vine. Thus far, however, I have noticed nothing positive or negative.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Ok, I have some results. I've applied this latest recipe at full strength as a soil drench and at half strength as a foliar spray twice (once a week) and will be doing the 3rd application in a few days. From my point of view, it's undeniably working. Below are 4 pictures of 3 pablano peppers that really got stunted indoors because the peat pots I started them in were constantly drying out. They are WAY behind the rest of my peppers/chiles. Unfortunately, I totally forgot to take "before" pictures so you'll just have to take my word for it when I say that the peppers in the first 2 pictures were actually worse off than the one in the 3rd. They were significantly smaller and had much less foliage. So you may not see as big a difference as I have noticed. Also the camera doesn't quite capture how much of a difference there really is between the 3. They're actually much greener and healthier than the camera portrays. I've had similar results with some squash and eggplants that I've applied it to.

Received Kvas:

Received Kvas:

Did not receive Kvas:

All three - the 2 on the left received Kvas:


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Now I have a question. How can I make this stuff on a large scale? What kind of container must I use? Here are a few pictures of my garden to give you an idea of how much I could actually use. I'd obviously dilute it and not apply it every week.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 29, 10 at 8:26

Valerie

Would honey work as the "sweetener" instead of molasses? You've said the concoction doesn't really need sweetening, but if I wanted to add it, we never use molasses but we do have honey on the shelf. I know molasses has all kinds of goodies that plants like, so if honey won't work, I'll see if I can find a small amount of molasses somewhere!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Kingkongos, thank you very much, nice pictures.

How can I make this stuff on a large scale? What kind of container must I use?

It is possible to make it in any container, barrel, plastic barrel etc. Just cover it. Plastic film is also possible to cover. Large barrel is more suitable, you can add weeds there at any time to get fermented plant extract. Grass clippings, leaves, banana peels and so on can be added. Then just take kvas from barrel and add the same amount of water and rye flour or molasses or weeds or beets or everything you have in the garden. After few days you'll have kvas again. And so on.

Would honey work as the "sweetener" instead of molasses?
Yes of cause. It will have a smell of honey too.
You can add any greens: weeds, fruits, green leaves, grass clippings and so on.


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I remember reading a while back in the first thread about the need for a clear plastic container to encourage the growth of photosynthetic bacteria. Would using a large 40 gallon trash bin inhibit the growth of that bacteria since it's a solid color and doesn't allow light through?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Photosynthetic bacteria use invisible infra-red light. This light can go through many non-transparent materials. It penetrate to the depth of 1 meter in soil. So, it's not a problem to use 40 gallon trash bin.
Photosynthetic bacteria need first of all:
1. Anoxygenic environment
2. Organic acids
Even if there are no photosythetic bacteria in a batch of kvas, they will grow in soil after watering it with kvas.

Don't bother about oxygen too when making kvas. Just keep it without oxygen (closed under the lid or plastic film in a barrel).


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 30, 10 at 11:30

Valerie

I'd like to experiment making kvas with whole wheat flour. Now, I'm aware that you recommend rye flour as being the best, and I'll do that one, too. I just want to test some other flours as well. I started out with 6 tablespoons whole wheat flour, 2 tablespoons molasses, and a gallon of water. It's sitting outside in the shade in a one gallon covered glass container.

So, here are my questions. What do I need to find, smell, or see in the solution to know that it's developing good bacteria? Should these indications be similar to the rye flour solution? And can I add other green organic matter to it as well? Should it sit outside the requisite number of three days before adding green matter or can it be added in the beginning?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Wheat flour has higher protein content. Thus kvas from it is similar to have been made from rye, but more stinky. Nevertheless it can be better than from rye, but it needs more time to ferment, 1 week or so. Usually I make kvas from wheat during 3 days, then pour out in other jag to remove sediment, then add small amount of sugar or honey and regularly add banana or orange peels, tea remainings, herbs, honey, carrots, beets and everything that I have.
Don't worry about white film on the surface. These are yeasts and they are not dangerouse for health. During 1 week all bad odors disappear (a sign of photosynthetic bacteria, I think). Then I filter kvas again and put it in botles. After the botling it can be kept very long time remaining fresh and having aromas of what you put there.
This way you can make beverages with any aroma you want. Nice drinks!

Kvas is good when:
1) It's acidic
2) No bad odors


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Using honey:
I had a jar from honey that we just finished.
I had added rain water and some rye flour to this unwashed jar and closed it.
In three days i got nice smelling kvas that i have used for watering my plants. I left some kvas from the bottom and use it to make another batch of kvas. This time i just added flour and rain water. It's working.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 30, 10 at 14:05

Valerie

Great and thank you for the information! I'm glad to know it is as good, even if stinkier in the beginning! Fortunately it's warm enough now to leave almost everything out in the shade (so the glass doesn't freeze and break and so the odor doesn't offend anyone). After a week or so, I'll need to dump the contents from the gallon container into a five-gallon bucket to add anything else to it.

I'm eager to try them in the garden!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Val,
I made a batch as per instructions, and i let it ferment closer to 5 or 6 days because i went out of town. The first few days, i did mix it up regularly, and it smelled like the first batch i made and had tiny bubbles showing activity on the inside. When i came back, there was a little bit of mold (or yeast?) along the top of the mixture, mostly on the jar and not as much in the kvas. I smelled it, and it wasn't really off-putting, but i imagine it may taste a little more sour than it should (for drinking) but should it still be good to go for plants?

I look forward to fermenting vegetation in it next time! Thanks for starting this thread.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Shlegminitism,

Mold on the top are not mold but yeast, really. Don't fear them, they are ABSOLUTELY safe. I see sometimes even large bubbles on the top and I don't afraid them too. When tinny bubbles float to the top, they collect under the film of yeast and form large bubbles. Don't afraid them too, it's the same yeasts. Add something sweet (not too much) and it will be more sour. I keep it after fermentation in bottles few months already and it is as fresh as it was and even more fresh (even small bad odor dissapear, if it was).

So, it's good for plant without doubting.
Don't forget dilute it in water befor use.
1:10 is still very strong, I think. For watering and sprinkling 1:100 is good.
So, from 1 litre of kvas (1 tablespoon of rye flour as I make in 1 litre of water) you'll have 100 litres of this elixir.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Tue, May 4, 10 at 7:07

Valerie

I just checked my covered solution of wheat flour, molasses, and water out on the deck, and the scum that was on the top day before yesterday has disappeared. I thought it was a yeast reaction, but it must not have been. It smells sour but not unpleasant. (I'm not sure I'd want to drink it, being partial to sweetened iced tea myself.) It is a clear or transluscent pale brown in color, and there is a good two inches of flour residue on the bottom.

Do you think it has produced the useful bacteria now? Is it ready to use or would it be better to wait a while longer?


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Pictures Whole Wheat KVAS w/Molasses

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Tue, May 4, 10 at 8:37

Whole wheat KVAS with molasses at four days of fermentation:

Photobucket

The flour residue on the bottom:

Photobucket


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

WOW!
How do you say, WOW? :-)
Well, this thing is called simple kvas or raw kvas.
It's already ready and can be used.
If you want to keep it then separate from residue. Residue can be used as fertilizer (very good fertilizer) under the plants. Kvas must be kept closed under the lid.

For wheat flour it's better to continue fermentation:
1. Separate from residue. Left 2-3 inches on top for additives.
2. Add something you want (or like). I like to add orange peels and/or hips, e.g. Add teaspoon of molasses or sugar.

Then after 3-7 days it will be wonderfull smelling aromatic drink with aroma of what you have added there.
Then just filtrate and put in refrigerator.
You can use it for drinking or/and for gardening.
As a beverage it has powerful healing properties.
I checked it on myself. I stoped pains in articulations and had no influenza and bronchitis this year since I began to drink it regularly. Enzymes and antioxidants are the explanation of it. And explanation of why it's good for plants too. Humans and plants have many common enzymes.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I have been making kwas from early 90s.
In the beginning for fertilizer value, But from last few years for additional important microbial action.

I used wheat floor, yam flour, powdered rice (rice flour) wheat bran, Rice bran, Rye floor pumpernickel flour, barley floor, alfalfa, and germinated rye seed floor.

Added kelp, Soft rock phosphate, Yogurt, milk, butter milk, Molasses, honey and barley malt.
Fruits Bananas and Papaya.

For fertilizer

Used to have an acre and half of garden with thin layer of topsoil.
Add one cup for gallon, make the ingredients as much diverse as possible in a five gallon bucket. cover it and stir it often . Use after one week. Few more days in winter. This I do in fall. No dilution.
Some times after few days I add a handful of soft rock phosphate. Some times high calcium lime.
Some of the ingredients are available at fair price in feed stores 12-15 dollars for a 50 pound bag. Some from Amazon, Asian, Indian and Mexican grocery stores at fair price.
The diversity of ingredients, supplies many amino acids, some like alfalfa and kelp supplies minerals, barley malt Etc supplies different sugars.

Result.
The soil becomes loose.
Return of earth worms in large numbers. Makes other nutrients such as bound calcium and phosphates easily available.
There is an enhancement of flavor in the vegetables you grow...
Fermented seed meals make the soil acidic. Hence during growing season the need to dilute. Some times if used undiluted it may cause yellowing of leaves, stunting, a temporary set back. But can be corrected easily.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 5, 10 at 10:44

Valerie

Okay, I'll let the kvass sit a little longer and add some kitchen residues to it.

Apparently Kombucha tea is another version of kvass tea that is used in other parts of the world, thought to have received that name in Korea, "Kombu" for the physician's name, and "cha" which means "tea".

It caught my attention because it is said the tea relieves arthritis, a malady I have to deal with daily. It is made with tea, sugar, and the Kombucha "culture", which apparently you need to purchase on-line, though I'd be happy to find a recipe for making the culture so I don't need to purchase it.


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HA! How to make a Kombucha 'mother' culture

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 5, 10 at 11:20

You'll need a bottle of Kombucha tea probably sold at health food stores, plus tea, sugar, etc., but you won't need to buy a "mother culture" from the internet.

Here are instructions on YouTube.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Eswar,

Thank you very much, impressive story!
Your formula: "a cup per gallon" sounds perfect.
You have great experience too!
How did you come to the idea? Where did you get it?
It seems that it is of Asia's origin.
I think that kwas can transfer soil to zymogenic kind of soil and then to synthetic soil when fertilizers (including kvas) are almost not needed. Isn't it the reason why you stopped using kwas in large quantities?
Have you experience with using it against pests?

Thank you.


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Kombucha

"cha" which means "tea"

anney, :-)

Tea on Russian sounds like "chaj", that is cha+j.
Of cause you know why - Russia has boundary with China and long history of relationships. So, Kombucha is a thing I know very well from my grandmother (and she heared about it from her grandmother).
Kvas can be made easier and from cereal's grains only. And I don't think that Kombucha is much better. Though for some specific illnesses it can be better. Kvas is also a good thing against arthritis. Generally kvas and Kombucha almost the same thing. Just lactobacteria and yeasts in kvas live separately and in Kombucha in symbiosys.
Have you tried japanese miso?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 5, 10 at 12:12

Valerie

No, I haven't drunk Japanese miso, though I've read about it.

You know something? I am convinced that we in America are extremely isolated in many things, including medicine and ways to enhance the environment. And the huge American and European corporate powers that be are happy to keep it that way.

I always appreciate new ways of looking at life, how to enhance it. So thank you for bringing this information to us.


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About miso

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 5, 10 at 12:42

I guess you don't drink it unless you drink soup liquids! I did not know that it is fermented soybeans!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

anney, I can disclose one little secret: if you drink kvas you have no need in fuites, juices, vegetables, berries and so on. And you will be still in excellent shape. It's the cheapest way to be healthy in 95% cases. Because of enzymes, vitamins and antioxidants.
Nowadays food industry makes food that has everything besides enzymes and antioxidants because it's difficult to keep them on the shelf long time. Even juices in shops are now lifeless. This is convinient, but without enzymes many disorders in the body happen which then corrected in the clinics. This is the way modern civilization goes.

I remembered miso because it's fermented food and fermented food has healing properties. In Hiroshima only those families didn't get radiation sickness which ate miso. It's interesting fact.

Cereals grain civilization (which we a still are) was going very well while people ate bread (grains) and drank kvas (fermented grains). Now they eat bread and don't drink kvas (cocacola instead, so to speak). And problems began.


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The idea of using milk, butter milk and yogurt is from my Grand mother -Indian origin. They also use them as foliar spray , soil drenching for cucumbers, squashes, and cantalopes. and melons.

Yes I am an Indian living is US from 1974 .Few articles came in Acres USA an Eco agriculture magazine about them. They gave me stimulus. This method is cheaper and eco friendly.

The Idea of diversity in seed meals is from acres USA, but mostly from some one who grows weeds (marij).They talk about enhancing flavor.They can tell whether the grass (marij) is grown with chemical fertilizers or natural organic fertilizers from taste and flavor. Some of them flush the plants one week before harvesting with only watering .

One may have fertilizers in the soil. But they should be available to plant roots in a suitable form. This is where KWAS stands out.

If KWAS fails it is from the soil lacking Phosphorous, calcium and trace minerals.

I do use Kwan in larger quantities every year in fall after all the plants are pulled out.

Few applications are needed. The greatest advantage of Kwas it makes the soil live and makes what is in the soil easily available to the plant roots.

Kwas to certain extent can take care of nitrogen needs.


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Eswar, thank you for reply!
Nice to see someone from India here.
In 1980-th I lived in Moscow near the square with two monuments of Indira Gandy and Mahatma Gandy. And I knew some students from India. And my impressions about India are mainly from India's cinema that was very popular in Russia and in general in USSR that time.

Unfortunately know very little about schools and methods of agriculture in India besides those described in books of Sir Albert Howard. I think that East can propose some valuable ideas in this relation.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

All right. I'm doing it, too---using it for fertilizer that is. I'm fertilizing 1/3 of my onions and snapdragons with kvas, 1/3 with fish emulsion fertilizer, and 1/3 with kefir.

What I am not going to be able to talk myself into is drinking kvas---at least not the kvas that I concocted!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

You maybe doing something wrong if you don't want to drink it. It's pretty nice when made from rye flour only, just pour out in a jar living 1/4 of it free and add 1 teaspoon of sugar per 1 liter AND a handful of orange peels (or any other peels such as banana) and leave it to stay closed under the lid during a week. I also throw there green tea castings. After a week put in refrigerator to cold. Then you can dilute it according to your preferences of acidity. This beverage reminds juices and is very probiotic drink with lactobacteria and broad spectrum of organic acids.
Now I sprinkle home plants with high ratio of dilution (1:20) and addition of very small amount of sugar (1/2 teaspoon per litre). My plants are storming: many new sprouts, leaves and they are very green too.
All I make for plants I capable to drink too.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Sat, May 8, 10 at 12:59

Valerie

I keep forgetting to ask you if I can use the residue from the first batch of kvas alone to prepare another batch without adding anything else, or should I add more wheat flour?

And I have another question that is quite far from the discussion to date.

Would the kvas increase the strength of cucurbitacin attractiveness to cucumber beetles? (It may require some experimentation to learn if this is the case.) I'm thinking of making a batch and putting cucurbit skins in it to see if the fermentation process would produce a liquid that would be attractive to the beetles.

I've been working for about two years now on devising a bait to mix with an insecticide that kills only cucumber beetles. This year I'll use a zucchini squash, Caserta variety (scroll down to Table 1), that attracts the beetles in great numbers and red dye #28 which is phototoxic to the beetles if they consume it, though it is harmless to other life that is interested in cucurbits, including mammals. If the two are mixed, I'm hoping it will work to protect my cucurbitaceous crops -- melons, cukes, gourds, etc. -- as well as suggesting it as an organic insecticide that could be created by gardeners themselves.

This article mentions fermenting the juice of a Hawkesbury bitter watermelon (to keep it from spoiling). This melon is also extremely attractive to cucumber beetles because of the cucurbitacin compounds in it. The beetles are not repelled by the fermentation results -- they still are attracted to the fermented watermelon juice as well as the fresh juice. But I don't know what fermentation method the researchers used. So I thought I'd test this one.

Do you have any thoughts about whether processing cucurbitacin-containing peelings or the fruits themselves would enhance their attractiveness to the beetles? If you don't know, it's all right, something that might need to be tested.


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That second link did not work

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Sat, May 8, 10 at 15:00

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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Anney, I don't know what is cucumber beetle. They looks like colorado beetles. Colorado beetles are our main enemy on potatoes. Had not test kvas agaist them yet.

I keep forgetting to ask you if I can use the residue from the first batch of kvas alone to prepare another batch without adding anything else, or should I add more wheat flour?

You should add more wheat flour, of cause. And with residues 1 day (24 hrs.) is enough for fermentation.
Residues better put around plants as fertilizer.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

  • Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on
    Sat, May 8, 10 at 16:39

Valerie

Okay, I'll add some more flour to the mixture.

You are lucky you don't have cucumber beetles! I'll test the cucurbitacin using kvas as the fermenter described above to see if the fermentation does not affect the cucurbitacin attractiveness to beetles. The goal is to see if the bait solution can be fermented so that it lasts a reasonably long period of time and does not affect the attractiveness of the bait solution to the beetles.

If I could identify a really good bait or trap crop for Colorado potato beetles, I'd test the concoction of bait plus dye on them, too. The same principles (bait plus the dye) are used with other insects that are destructive to human foodstuffs as long as they are flies and beetles. Maybe it will work with potato beetles, too. I haven't seen on the internet that anyone has experimented with them.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Yes, I made it wrong. I added the molasses immediatly to the flour and spelt wheat berries and boiling water. The stuff started fermenting the next day and is rather odoriferous right now in my laundry room. I actually have already started watering stuff with it, but I'll heave it out and follow the initial recipe more closely.

It is definitely not something that anyone would consider ingesting.

Do you know kefir?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I used kefir once as inoculants to Kwas.

Kefir is not available easily and expensive in Alabama at local health food stores.
Now I add yogurt a teaspoon (Greek yogurt sold at Costco or Sams club) once in a way. It is also a good compost additive.

I do not add kwas next to the stem of the plant. I add it to the drip zone, like a ring. I want the roots to spread out as much as possible instead of clumping together. The roots seek moisture and nutrition.

For row planting I use it in the drip zone or in between the rows.

Later (30 -40 days)when the plant reaches flowering and fruiting stage I add one half to one table spoon full of bone meal and ----.For flowering and fruiting phosphorous is necessary. Add it after 3 days wait for a couple of days more for the bone meal to ferment...
Fermented bone meal is commercially available but costs 30 dollars per gallon. It is cheaper.
One good book to read is" Nutrition home grown" by Beddoe available at Amazon. It is expensive about 25 US$.

Another advantage of using Kwas is draught tolerance.

The average yields of tomatoes per season for a home Gardner is 25-40 pounds. The world record is 328 pounds. (His techniques are available as book).One with little effort one can reach 100 pounds.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Kefir?
Yes of cause. It is sold in food shops everywhere.
When I remember kefir I always remember Mecnikov.
He was an interesting kind of scientist. For example, he wrote a book called "A theory of death" and when he was dying he continued to record his observations over himself.
One of his last records was "I am not feeling fear, I am feeling forthcoming of something very glad".

Here is a link that might be useful: Mechnikov


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How to dissolve

Eswar, thank you for very good advices.

Yes, really, kwas is a good basis for fermenting ("dissolving") of any organic (and inorganic too) additives:
-bone meal
-seaweeds
-blood meal
...
Really everything.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I bought kefir grains off the internet and make kefir on the countertop. The directions that came with the grains recommend that I use any excess kefir I produce on my plants. I've used it on houseplants, but haven't really noticed any change.

It didn't occur to me to use the kefir to make the kvas.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Okay a couple of questions:

First, Dan Staley... you comment on just about every post, which is great, I've come to respect your opinion, why not this one? What's your take?

Nandina, you haven't posted in a while... did you finally drink some of this stuff and have now gone to the big compost pile in the sky?

So, I got all excited and started a batch using the 6TBS flour + Molasses + Water... then reread everything from the beginning. Now I'm confused. I need clarification.

First, I realize valerie is saying to only use flour and water at first and add molasses later. I think Nandina was saying to add all ingredients at once and you get the same results?

I used to make compost tea using compost, water, molasses and a fish tank aerator. I'd let this aerate for about 7 days before applying to the garden, which gave me great results. I remember the smell of that stuff well. Not that it was offensive, just unique. Sweet, but it would not come off of your skin. I use to wash my hands over and over and it would still be there. I would never consider ingesting it. Guess what, that's exactly what the Kvas I am currently brewing smells like.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

My name has been mentioned by rlv4. Yup, I am still here and just sitting back waiting for comments from others on this subject. Here are some of my current thoughts...

1. Next to vodka kvas is the most popular national drink in Russia. I note through searching that Coca Cola is about to introduce a bottled kvas drink there. Interesting. Yet, the basic ingredients in kvas are also present in fruits. My preference is to enjoy ripe fruits such as apple, mango or peach all of which can be used in many ways in cooking recipes. Sanitation is my main concern when dealing with homemade kavas recipes to be consumed. Valerie will probably disagree with me but I feel it is important when brewing kavas for human consumption. Which leads me to another thought....

2. Anney alluded to the subject of Kombucha tea. I spent three years experimenting with this tea horticulturally. After trying every experiment I could think of I concluded that it is of no use on plants. I have just finished a long search on the subject of Kombusha tea and find a great deal of fragmented advice. If some of you are tempted to begin making and drinking it daily for its supposed health benefits please use strict sanitation and all boiled water. The YouTube site on making Kambusha tea which Anney posted does not do this and it is important. Some of my friends have been drinking Kombusha tea for many years and now are showing signs of liver damage.

3. Okay...on to how I am presently making kvas and what results I am noting. Using a plastic container I either use one gallon of rain water or one gallon of tap water set open on the counter 24 hours to remove chlorine. To this I add 6 tablespoons of rye flour and two tablespoons of blackstrap molasses, all at the same time. Shake well and stand in the sun three days, shaking often.
I watered this full strength all winter on my winter annuals, veggies and herbs every other week. They thrived. However...
As the weather warmed and I tested the kvas full strength on rows of veggies I found that it weakened them. They stayed green but just lay down and sulked. Scratch that method. On to the next experiment, water with 10% kvas as Valerie suggests. Frankly, I do not see any difference between the kavas treated plants and those grown in good compost enriched soil. I will keep experimenting but have a hunch that eswar is leading us in the right direction. Apply kvas in the fall to the garden.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Law of minimum.

The minimal amount of nutrient determines the health and yield of plant.
The least inadequate nutrient is the determining limiting factor. Make sure that the soil is balanced and got all the nutrients necessary, what ever is used up needs to be returned to the soil.
My understanding is that kwas helps in making the nutrients available to the plant roots if they are in the soil...

The nutrient value (apart from the Lactobacillus, enzymes Etc) from the seed meals (flour).It is a week to moderate source of Nitrogen. The bacteria consume the food first, makes the soil PH suitable for the roots to absorb by making week soluble organic acids with nutrients.

Kwas does not supply trace elements, essential calcium, Potassium or phosphorous. Hence diversity is the key. Bone meal, soft rock phosphates, supplies phosphorous, SRP supplies minimal trace elements and calcium...

Addition of alfalfa meal, kelp supply potassium and adequate trace elements,
Molasses supply carbons, sugars and few trace elements.
Hence diversity is the key.

There are several case reports where farmers used only biologicals without addressing other nutritional needs nor fertilization at allfound their yields dropped down to 25% in the third year.

If there is no adequate food for the bacteria, they simply die and disappear.

Imagine dropping 10 people in the middle of Sahara desert. When the little food they have is used up, after few days they simply starve to death. If the lactobacillus does not have any food they simply die after exhausting all available resources.

The specific nutritional needs of plants, their quantities are different at different stage of growth.
The nutritional needs of an infant, pregnant woman, lactating mother are different. They need to be addressed first--- In the vegetative growth phase and fruiting and flowering phase.

Most people fertilize in the spring. That is it ---and they expect it will last till the end of season .That does not happen.

Good gardening is assembling all essential needs of plant and taking care of it. Unlike us plants cannot walk to the refrigerator or kitchen cabinet get some thing to eat.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

First, my answer to the questions of rlv4.


I realize valerie is saying to only use flour and water at first and add molasses later. I think Nandina was saying to add all ingredients at once and you get the same results?

No, results are not the same, I think.
Fermentation which I speak about is made by two main groups of microorganisms: lactobacteria and yeasts. They both use sugars. Lactobacteria crack sugar into lactic acid, yeasts crack sugar into alcohol under some conditions but here they use sugar as an energy source and release gas CO2. Depending of what group of microorganisms predominates you can get different results. If only flour and water is used then lactobacteria predominate and will be predominating after molasses has been added. If put molasses in the beginning then yeasts will be there in significant numbers too. I prefer lactobacteria dominating kvas.


Guess what, that's exactly what the Kvas I am currently brewing smells like.

Yes, its the reason why I think that compost is excess thing in the aerated compost tea with addition of molasses. This tea is not compost tea but rather yeast tea.

Nandina, thank you for posting your results. Bad news Yes, undiluted kvas is acidic and thus can cause damage of plants roots if applied to soil. It becomes more acidic with molasses. I used undiluted kvas made from rye flour only for watering 2-3 times and had no problems.
So, be careful Water around the plants with some distance from stem.
And if your soil is good then kvas is not needed. Sprinkling soil with kvas in the autumn is good idea. It may help to save OM from residues in soil instead of leaching into atmosphere.

I think that kvas can be useful for sprinkling plants first of all.
Ill test it soon in the field conditions and tell about it here.
I am expecting:
1) Better photosynthetic activity (greener plants)
2) Enhanced immune system (less diseases)
3) Enhanced pests resistance. (less pests)


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Eswar,

Some researches show that such things as kvas promote the grouth of michorhizae fungus because easily available nitrogen - amino acids and nucleic acids. And michorhizae in its turn return phoshorus from minerals.Organic acids in soil promotes the growth of photosynthetic bacteria such as PNSB which are nitrogen fixers also.

Generally, kvas is very natural thing for plants because when seeds germinating they release enzyme amylase inside the grain and it crack starch to sugar. This process is called malting. And then surrounding lactobacteria and yeasts (which are "packed" in grain under the husk) decompose sugar making ... kvas ... around the seed.
So, kvas is very natural thing for plants.
What is needed is to dertermine concentration. Better to use more diluted and more often, I think. The idea of sprinkling is more easy than the whatering. Antioxidants and enzymes will be delivered to plants through leaves, not through rootes. This is what I am going to test this season.

I swear, that kvas enhanced my immune system sygnificantly this winter. I am expecting the same for plants.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Scratch that method

Here is where the devil:
If it's good thing, I'll add more.

Here on gardeweb forum there is an interesting discussion about drinking vinegar. Generally the recipe is: 2 tablespoons of vinegar per day (diluted, of cause).
Nandina decided to "drink 1 litre of vinegar per day".
So the resultes...

Next to vodka kvas is the most popular national drink in Russia

I would not say so. Russian's attitude to vodka is very different. Nevertheless, it's the best characteristic of kvas! Really, kvas is able to retore all troubles after vodka. I know it, I've made many experiments on myself.
Without kvas, I think, we all could be dead (drinking vodka by buckets). Thanks to kvas, we are still alive, as you see :-)


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie wrote:

"Then after 3-7 days it will be wonderfull smelling aromatic drink with aroma of what you have added there."

Okay...day 3 with the 6 TBS Rye flour to 1 gallon water. I put it in a sun tea jar with a spout on the bottom. I placed the jar on our kitchen table where it receives a couple of hours of morning sun. We keep our house around 70F. I poured a sample from the spout today to check the odor. My Kvas smells like Kv-ass! Valerie, I don't remember putting ass in there! Hopefully a day or two more is all it needs.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Don't wait. If it's bad it will be bad further.

I put 4 TBS per gallon (1 tbs per litre) and always have good results. This corresponds to ratio 1:20 by volume or a cup per gallon.
Start with ratio 1:10 by volume.


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What is a cup?

Here is what I mean "a cup".

Here is a link that might be useful: cup


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What was an error

Again, perhaps Nandina's error was in molasses.
Molasses makes kvas more acidic. So, if molasses is added then dilution is necessary. Dilute kvas in water with ratio minimum 1:10 anyway befor watering. 1:20 (a cup per gallon) must be absolutely safe.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

So now the recipe is 4 TBS per gallon, not 6? I'm getting confused....


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

4 is minimum.
The more the better.
If 4 works, 6 must work too.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

rlv4,
what water did you use?
If it was tap water, it could contain chlorine, that kill good bacteria.
I always use rain water. You can let tap water to stay in open pot for 24 hour to get the same effect.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

briergardener,

We are on a well, so our water is chlorine free. I have seen mention of boiling the water first which I have not tried and may do so next.

I also thought maybe it was not a good idea to expose to sunlight? Maybe indirect light is sufficient?

Valerie,

I thought I remember you saying sometimes the liquid smells foul for a while until the process advances. Is this only the case with wheat flour, and not rye flour.

Another question, I have found a wheat version of kvas at our local health food store. Can I use this as a primer?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

rlv4,
I never had any problem with rye flour (if mixed with water in ratio: a cup per gallon). Wheat flour in the same ratio can be stinky, though general process go to right way. Sunlight is not needed if temperature highter than 18C. It is also possible to make it in any vessel.
I think you can use kvas from health food store as inoculant. Especially for wheat flour. You also can use kefir, yogurt as starter cultur (primer). 1/2 half per gallon is enough, I think. In next batch they are not needed - just add flour to remainings.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Hi Valerie,

Thank you so much for your patience in informing us about fermentation! You made a very interesting comment:

"Herbs increase their healing and antioxidant properties tens times after fermentation with kvas."

This is amazing to me. I have read several books and articles on fermentation and have made numerous home recipes of cultured vegetables, dairy, E.M. in the garden, etc but I am sure that in Russia you probably have much more understanding in this area. Are there any sources I can read to find out more on this subject in English? I am especially interested in reading more about the fermented herbs increasing their healing powers.

Thank you!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Greenleaf,
I don't know any book translated to English.
I know some on Russian.
There are experimental data showing that the content of some vitamins, enzymes, antioxidants, available micronutrients increases significantly after fermentation. And the content of phyto-toxins decreases.
Ordinary carrot approaches to ginseng by healing properties after fermentation.
This subject is very interesting but unbounded.
So, I bounded myself just only to making simple beverages based on kvas and it's derivatives. Kvas itself is a medicine for me. Powerful medcine.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie, have enjoyed this topic and made Kvass that smells and tastes great. I made it with organic rye flour and distilled water. Yesterday, I was rereading "Let Nature do the Growing" by Gajin Tokuno (originally published in Japan in 1980.) This book has been a favorite for growing Asian vegetables. I had skipped over sections that I felt I already knew well. When I read his comments on fall planted cabbage, I was amazed to find that he suggested fermenting soy meal in water in a volume ratio of 1:10. Tokuno says to apply this solution "once or twice for nutrition." At the time of his writing, GMO and 'roundup ready' soybeans were not sold anywhere. For my fall greens, including cabbage, I plan to make this soy formula with organic soy.
Has anyone done comparisons with various grains/Kvass? Hope to see this topic continued.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Blueberrier,

I made experiments with different grains:
1. Soybean
2. Buckweet
3. Rice

They all works!
Fermented soybean liquid smells like yogurt. Thus, it is called soygurt sometimes.

Important remark is that they must be ground befor the putting in water. I make it in coffee grinder at home. It takes 2 days for fermenting.

But what I found recently astonished me very much!

Firstly, I began experiments with rice. I put rice flour (that I make in a grinder as I said) in 3 liter jar, yes, in ratio 1:10. Filled with water and waited 2 days. Then I had noticed small bubbles jumping from the bottom to the top. It's a result of yeasts formed there and it's very natural for grains. Then I added 1 tablespoon of sugar and saw a lots of bubbles soon. After 1 day I pour out 2 litres of the liquid (let call it "rice water") in large cup, added the same amount of water to the jar and 1 tablespoon of sugar again. Few times per day I mix it. And this procedure I do already 2 weeks every day and the process seems to be endless! The amount of rice is almost the same after 2 weeks!

I want to say that this "rice water" is slightly acidic, slightly fluffy and very good beverage for drinking, much more pleasant than raw kvas from rye flour. Now I try it on home plants for sprinkling and watering and it seems to be good.

This my little discovery is amazing me.
What is needed most of all is sugar, and very little amount of grains flour!

I am thinking about it now and making experiment on reproducing the process from beginning, from zero, trying it with other grains.
Will tell about it later.

For me its very promising source of probiotics. Unlimited source!
Both for me and for the plants too.
Fantastic!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Thinking back to history, I more and more make sure for myself, that Kvas made Russia, not Russia made Kvas!

Please, everybody think about it!
(For those who have mind)


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie, any type of rice? White rice all right?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Rice, soy, soybeans all right.
Any grains all right.
Our civilization is grains' based.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Why do you think my first batch went bad? Too early incorporation of molasses?

Now that I think about it---I made it out of ground spelt wheat, not the rye that you'd advised initially.

I'm trying rice next, but I have to go to the store first.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I think that regenerative forces will lead you here back.
We'll wait.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Don't feel responsible if you never hear from me again, Valerie. It could just be a coincidence.


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well

Don't worry anny,
I'll pray to you all the rest of my life!
God, keep Annpart in your stockroom!


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Thank you.

I appreciate that! It's some small comfort.

What day do I drink this? Day three?


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recipe 3

Day three...

God said to us: wait, and it render!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I have been fascinated by this thread, and decided to brew up a batch. I used 6 tbsp. rye flour (not organic) in 1 1/2 gall of well water, in a clear plastic container. I set it next to a window, but no direct sun, and gave it a shake once a day for three days. It smelled a bit sour and a bit yeasty, but not "bad". I then added two heaping tbsp. honey, one heaping tbsp of epsom salts, and the contents of one chamomile teabag. Two days more and it is smelling really nice ! As soon as it stops raining here I will be trying it as a 1/10 diluted foliar spray with a little neem added, and a 50/50 diluted soil drench on the new veg garden. I don't think I'll drink any though.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

mandolls,

I advise you to dilute it 1/10 for soil drench too.
And water around the stem, not directly under it.
This thing can be very acidic/robust for some plants.
If you'll see some signs of withering, then just drench soil with clear water.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Will do - -thanks for the advice. By the way, yesterday I could smell the honey and chamomile, today it is back to smelling yeasty and sour - should I add more? OR just keep it as it is,(since I'm not drinking it anyway)


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

If to add more honey/sugar then it will be just more acidic. Honey or sugar is a food both for lactic acid bacteria and yeasts. Lactic acid bacteria are more active. Yeasts make gas CO2 and alcohol. But it takes LONG time for yeasts (and much honey) to make significant amount of alcohol, so alcohol there is VERY low. Gas CO2 is more important. It makes "sparkling" and agitates all the mixture. Lactic acid bacteria overcompete yeasts and make lactic acid much more rapidly than yeasts make alcohol. Smell of honey can disappear since LB eat honey. But in my experience the smells of herbs remain.

Well, keep it as it is. But it's better to add small amount of honey or sugar 1 day befor the using in order to activate (multiply) lactic acid bacteria.

Lactic acid bacteria are very good for sprinkling against infections of plants because lactic acid has sterilizing effect.

I sprinkle plants without dilution but very rapidly, so not too much of kvas remains on plants. I want to test this thing against powdery mildew and phytophtora.

It's very good also to add pepper (1 teaspoon per gallon, wait 1 day) if you want to use it against insects.
I'm trying now this method against Colorado beatles on potatoes and going to see results tomorrow. I sprinkled them today in the evening.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie, I'm on day three with the rice mixture. I'm adding the first sugar today. I'm confused, though. Step 7. Pour out the stuff in the bottles? And use it, I presume? Add sugar and water to the original vessel? Am I adding more water and sugar to the rice left in the bottom of the original vessel, which has had its liquid poured off?

(Thanks)

1. Grind rice in coffee grinder
2. Add 10 tablespoons of that stuff into gallon of water
3. Wait 2 days
4. Add 1 tablespoon of sugar to it
5 Wait 1 day

7. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

8. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

9. Wait 1 day

10. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

11. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

12. Wait 1 day

13. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

14. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

15. Wait 1 day


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Valerie, I'm on day three with the rice mixture. I'm adding the first sugar today. I'm confused, though. Step 7. Pour out the stuff in the bottles? And use it, I presume?

Yes. Keep bottles in refrigerator. Not long time.
It's nice beverage.

Add sugar and water to the original vessel? Am I adding more water and sugar to the rice left in the bottom of the original vessel, which has had its liquid poured off?

Yes.

Pour out 3/4 of the liquid. And left 1/4 in vessel.
Then add water and sugar.
After 1 day it will be ready again.

Advise: put some raisins there.

The cycle can be repeated many times.
But if it became "stinky" - don't drink it and stop the process.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Good! It's smelling pretty good today. I wish I'd rinsed the rice because the water is slightly dirty-colored, but I'm going to forget about the dirt, refrigerate the liquid tomorrow, and drink it tomorrow evening cold. I'll add some raisins to my second batch, although if they plump up too much, I may not be able to drink it.

I may feed this to my chickens, too.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Well, wellcome to the World of Fermentation!
It's amasing world!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Ok i've been reading these threads for a week now. I started my own batch of kvas in a 1.5 litre glass wine bottle and used plastic between the metal lid. i used roughly 4tbsp of rye flour and water, no molasses since i read it would slow down the process and could be added later. I left on a shelf outside my window that gets full sun most of the day, but is significantly cooler at night. I shook it a couple times a day for the first 3 days, then once a day after that. It's been about a week. I opened it for the first time just now...
-it's cloudy translucent color, with two layers of sediment at the bottom- grainy brownish on the bottom, finer white on top of that.
-slight odor, reminds me of something i can't place, not specifically "pleasant" but definitely not bad.
-tastes a little sour, only a little fizzy. i enjoy it.

so now a few questions i have-

1- Valerie i notice you seem to use plastic. Does it make any difference between plastic or glass?

2- i did not allow the chlorine to evaporate from the tap water. Does anyone know what the consequences might be from fermenting it with chlorine?

3- I am ready to add something to the mix. I will use raw honey instead of molasses but i was interested in the idea of FPE and was wondering what difference it makes compared with regular kvas?

I had the idea to add the pruned leaves from my tomato plants which smell amazing, and then use the resulting kvas on the tomato plants themselves. Any thoughts?

I love this thread by the way. Thank you, Valerie, and everyone else for your input!
Cynthia


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Cynthia,

Thank you very much for your input too!

Not to say that I know everything, but the more I'm working with this thing called kvas, the more it intrigue me too.

Well, I made many mistakes in thinking since I began my experiments. It's very natural.
Now I came to this method:

A cup of rye flour per gallon of water.
Sit 2 days.
Does not matter if it closed from air or open.

Really, I make it now in plastic barrels and they are open, and no problem! I have a lot of white kvas. It has nice smell, OK.

One of my barrel is 60 litres, and another is 40. I used 2 kg of rye flour, so I've made 100 litres of kvas from 2 kg of rye flour. It's very cheap for me!

All I make is just mix it once per day by large stick.

This thing is similar to sour milk, I think.
It's very healthy, too. I whash my hands there and even the face sometimes - it's very pleasant!
(By the way I unload dandruff too.)

How I used this thing? And what are results?

1. Planting

I made comparative research with the beet.
One plot was planted with kvas.
I just watered the soil with this white kvas and pushed the seeds of the beet there.
On another plot I made the same but without kvas, just only with water.

I want to say that the beet on the plot with kvas is 2 times higher and luxury green than the plot without kvas.

Why?

2. Pests.

I sprinkled one of the most strong pest in the world - colorado beatles on potatoes. I used pure kvas without dilution. Now I can say only about adultes, larvae have not appeared yet. Adultes became to move from one potatoe plant to another, and they are still there, but there are very few of them now.

So, this is my results now.

But what surprise me most of all is my beets.
I used very small amount of kvas!
But they are definetly much more than neighbors.
Why?

I came to conclusion:

Lactic acid bacteria established in soil during planting.
Then, after beets began to grow, beets emited carbohydrates (sugar) into soil, that is very common to plants, and lactic acid bacteria ate this sugar (think about addition of molasses to kvas) making lactic acid which (as any other acid) dissolved minerals making food for plants. More strong plants emit more sugar. More lactic acid bacteria. More food for plants.

What I'm still surprising - I watered my home plants 1 year ago with kvas, and 1/2 year ago. And not after then. But they are still grow and grow and grow!
I think I understand - why!

Sorry if I missed something in your questions, my message is large enough, and I need a rest.

Don't be shy to ask again!


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Answers to the questions.

1- Valerie i notice you seem to use plastic. Does it make any difference between plastic or glass?

No difference. But high pressure can be inside the bottle and plastic bottle is better from this point of view.

2- i did not allow the chlorine to evaporate from the tap water. Does anyone know what the consequences might be from fermenting it with chlorine?
Its better to make without chlorine. Chlorine kills microbes.

3- I am ready to add something to the mix. I will use raw honey instead of molasses but i was interested in the idea of FPE and was wondering what difference it makes compared with regular kvas?
Some plants repel insects. FPE made from these plants repel insects too. Plants are also a food for microbes. So, FPE is a cheap way to get more kvas from weeds.

I had the idea to add the pruned leaves from my tomato plants which smell amazing, and then use the resulting kvas on the tomato plants themselves. Any thoughts?
I dont know but I think it is possible.


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Anybody has tried corn syrop instead of sugar or honey?


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Why do some want to tinker with Valerie's formula right now? Shouldn't we be trialing his original formulas using molasses to see if we get the same results he claims work? Would like to hear your thoughts on this, Valerie.


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Why did this thread die? Was looking forward to results.


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Where are all the folks experimenting with this Kwas? Kingkongos and others?

Maybe they drank their solution? and are happy campers?

Intriguing thread. Took me awhile to figure out what you were all writing about, tho.


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kingkongos
Your garden enclosure is very nice. Would you tell us what type of posts you used.
Thank you
Happy Gardening
Jan


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I have been so busy with expanding and preparing for spring that I haven't done any further experiments since the one mentioned above. In those, both the peppers as well as a few squash plants that received kvass showed noticeable improvements. I also used it on my indoor winter vegetable seedlings and although I didn't have a control group, I had extremely healthy seedlings ready to transplant in a very short period of time. So, it's too early to tell but the results I had were promising.

I've now expanded my garden to about 3000 sq ft and will have many opportunities to experiment further. I'll report back periodically.

Thanks Okak! I used 2" PVC which is coated with a protective spray-paint.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Kingkongos,
What solution did you use on your seedlings? Straight kvas or diluted? How often? Did you use any other fertilizers? What kind of seedling mix did you use (wondering if it contained compost)?

Enclosure is very good, agree with Okak. Can you tell what spray paint did you use?

thanks


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I used diluted (1-2 ounces/gallon) kvas about 2 times a week. I also used a liquid fertilizer called Biothrive Grow/Bloom at the recommended amounts. The starter mix was the Organic Jiffy Seed Starter Mix from Home Depot (vermiculite, perlite, peat moss). With my winter veggies, I only grow them for about 4 weeks tops in 72 cell trays...so no potting up.

The spray paint is called Krylon Fusion for plastic.


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thank you, kingkongos.

Anybody else was using kvas last year?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I trying the rye flour recipe, but the flour dont want to disolve in the jug. The type of flour that im useing is dark rye flour. It looks like sand in the bottom of the milk jug. I have been shaking the jug about 4 times a day. Also i use 2 tablespoons molasses with the flour. Dose anybody know why the flour wont disolve??? ,,,,thanks


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Hey rlv4, to pick this up years later I do have a testimony for you on kvass. I bought an avocado tree that I later noticed had a bad spot on the bark near the ground level. The bark was eroding away and seemed to threaten the life of the tree. I tried several organic solutions (not to mention complete organic program with the soil). I finally tried spraying kvass on the area full strength and it healed up nicely. I am also a big believer in using probiotics and cultured foods for human nutrition and have benefitted greatly personally by them. I have not tried kvass internally yet but plan to very soon.


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I am also planning to use it. Very useful thread, thanks everyone.

Caelian


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Interesting discussion. Kvas was my favourite summer drink when I was growing up in Russia and it had never occurred to me that it could be used in your garden. We also had Red Kvas but i bever liked it, I guess it was a flavored type. Those who are not so keen to try it: you are missing a lot. You can drink it (chilled of course) or you can even make summer soup with it called Okroshka. Basically you use kvas as a liquid and add chopped: eggs, radishes, green onions, dill, potatoes and luncheon or ham. Its a favorite cold summer soup in Russia.
I live in Dubai now and we don't have it here (well maybe in Russian shops but those are ridiculously overpriced) and though I knew you can make it at home I never tried it (cuz until recently I never found rye flour here). Our soil is actually sand that is very alkaline. I did read the thread but the info was quite overwhelming. Well I actually started by searching for homemade fish fertilizer, cuz here our choice is pretty limited and expensive, and link after link I ended up here. Now my questions are:

How can kvas be used in my conditions on our soil? We are actually starting our gardening season as the temperatures are dropping. Rain is scarce but we have irrigation. I am planning to use square foot gardening as well as container gardening, but I also have some trees in the ground (at planting time I added potting soil and peat moss to the holes).

Since compost choices are limited here I am starting my own. How can kvas be used with compost? Can it be used to speed things up?

I hope someone can help me with the questions.
By the way yesterday, after reading this thread, I started a batch of kvas with whole wheat flour and another batch with rice water. I'll try to report back here with my observations.


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Dubai-gardener,
I guess red kvas was beet kvas as I remember for my years in Russia.
I think you can layer raw things that you usually put in compost, spray with kvas (it will speed decomposture) and cover with another layer of your soil.

gregstep,
flour will not dissolve, it has to ferment.
Maybe you added water that has chlorine and it called lacto bacteria.

Last year I used kvas on tomatoes and did not have late blight. This summer I skipped this step and got late blight, maybe this is coincident, not sure.


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"Last year I used kvas on tomatoes and did not have late blight. This summer I skipped this step and got late blight, maybe this is coincident, not sure."

Given that both early and late blight famously comes and goes based on various factors, I would say that it is extremely likely that the role of kvas in your anecdote is coincident - IOW, it's absence did not cause late blight to attack the plants, nor did its presence eliminate late blight.


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Dubai-gardener, don't forget cucumbers for your Okroshka :)
Earlier this year I made a batch of "kvas" to fight some super stinky carpet in the house we rented. Luckily, we moved out of there and I have some great "kvas" with me. It was made like it is described here, some rye flower, molasses and water. The first batch turned bad, it had some strange overtones to it. The second one smelled just like kvas I remember. I use it to keep my compost from smelling bad and, I believe, it does more than that. I use it to water the soil before planting, it makes it smell earthy good.


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Yes gvozdika I forgot cucumbers :)
I am making a batch with whole wheat flour now, I added the sugar today, and also added date syrup since I don't have molasses on hand, will see how it goes.
Are you Russian by any chance (gvozdika)?

This post was edited by dubai-gardener on Wed, Oct 9, 13 at 8:32


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Pnbrown,
Let me not to agree with you. If you google "late blight tomatoes probiotics" you can read info about some researches. And because kvas does contain probiotics, I believe that my this year problem was connected with fact that I have not used probiotics (I have used leftover of home made kefir in addition to kvas last years).


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

You do agree with me, because as you said all that can be known is that the use of kvas was coincident one time with an absence of late blight.

There were probably certain birds or insects on or near the plants as well in the absence of late blight and then those same animals were absent in the presence of late blight the next year. Probably not causal.


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Valerie, it is a pleasure to note that this interesting topic has been resurrected again. Let me add my updates/observations. etc. to the discussion. I continue to use the same formula: 6 tablespoons of rye flour, 2 tablespoons of dry molasses granules in one plastic gallon bottle of chlorine free water which stands sealed in the daylight, shaken several times a day for three days. Just for my own interest I made one gallon of this formula using water that had been boiled for 10 minutes, cooled, flour and molasses then added. This I set on my back porch exposed to sun, shade and the elements for two years. It remained clear and when I opened it the fragrance was pleasant and yeasty. I used it to water winter vegetables which thrived! Beautiful, deep green healthy plants.

1. I find that this formula works well here in my southern conditions best on winter growing plants. Plants growing in my summer heat and humidity appear stunted and not healthy. Very northern gardeners may have a difference experience.

2. I will trial using a diluted spray for tomato blight next summer as under discussion above. Sometimes little thoughts like this dropped here on GW have led to some interesting discoveries such as....

3. Over on the Tree Forum the idea of saving trees with damaged bark (especially young ones) using a slurry made of garden soil and water rubbed on the damaged areas was mentioned. So far this method has worked well for me. I have been using the Kvas water worked into fine, sieved soil as a slurry which is then applied gently and thinly.


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"Over on the Tree Forum the idea of saving trees with damaged bark (especially young ones) using a slurry made of garden soil and water rubbed on the damaged areas was mentioned."

That is an awesome way to introduce possible pathogen in the soil to a plant.

It kinda blows my mind anyone would suggest that, especially to a high value plant such as a tree. Soil splash is the main cause of viral and bacterial spread of disease to plants outside of piercing/sucking insect visitation.

Unless a tree is "ringed" to the cambium layer(s) all the way around or the bark damage is extremely severe the tree will survive just fine.


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Also, I hate to even venture into this, but some of you are doing incorrect things with your LAB (lactic acid bacteria) mixtures as it pertains to plant application...such as the kvass mixture that seems to be ruling this thread. I underlined "plant application" because this method may produce kvass (or other LAB mixtures) not suitable for human consumption. I don't drink kvass, so I dunno. I do, however, know how to make LAB mixtures for plant use.

1- You want to keep it out of direct light and in a breathable container at room temperature (or a container with a thin cloth on top secured with rubber bands, or something similar) while creating the mixture and doing the fermenting

2- If it doesn't smell a bit sour/off after a couple days after the initial mix, it's not doing it's thing

3- You don't want to shake/agitate the mixture and introduce oxygen into the process because this is an anaerobic process. This is very important and disturbing the mixture can kill the anaerobic bacteria you're trying to culture and instead culture other types of bacteria or totally kill the whole process.

4- It should separate after 3-5 days into a "cloudy liquid" + solids layers (up to a week if cold)

5- You want to keep the "cloudy liquid" part and get rid of the solids. Get as much of the solids out as you can. You're shooting for as close as you can get to 100% separation...solids will add to "off" smells as well as more quickly "turn bad" the final product.

6- Store loosely capped or in a "breathable" bottle so it doesn't explode

7- At room temperature you have a week...refrigerated, you have up to 5-6 months

8- It should have a sweet-to-neutral smell...if it smells "rotten" it's beyond...if it smells "earthy" it's way beyond use date and pretty much dead

Btw, you can make a whole lot more powerful LAB mixture using rice and milk in a 2-step process...way more powerful. Do steps 1-5 listed above with rice water (directions below), then add 1 part of the finished/fermented rice water to 9 parts milk (make sure to only fill the container 3/4 full because there will be severe solid separation, a whole lot more than the rice) and repeat steps 1-5 listed above...then carry on from there with parts 6-8. This culture should be diluted heavily for application (a bit under 1 teaspoon per gallon or 3 tablespoons per 10 gallons) and once diluted it should be lightly stirred/shaken to incorporate and used immediately. More is -not- better...this is very strong stuff.

Btw, you're probably only going to need a mason jar (or smaller) batch of this. Most home gardeners are not going to need a lot of this.

...to make the rice water you're going to ferment for step 1...

1- fill a container 1/2 full with rice

2- dump the dry rice into something you can sieve water through and collect all the water that will go through it

3- fill the container 3/4 full with water (without the rice)

4- pour the water over the rice, collecting the pour-through water

5- run the collected water through the rice again and repeat until you get a white-cloudy water

-afterthought edit- ...and if you don't want to waste anything, do it when you're planning to cook rice and salvage that rinsed rice since you're only using the rinsed rice water...though it'll be kinda "sticky." :)

This post was edited by nc-crn on Thu, Oct 10, 13 at 6:03


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I started a batch with wholemeal flour and the rice water. I am on day 5 today for both. I found the instructions for rice water thing online, on a website about newspaper bokashi. I was initially gonna use the rice water for homemade EM for newspaper bokashi, but also thought I'd use it as kvas is mentioned here.
The flour mixture didn't smell bad on day 2, on day 3 it smelled BADLY, on day 4 it was better. Today the smell is sour but not as offending.
Will report how it all goes.


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I drank a lot of kvas back home in Russia as most of people in that country.
Last couple years I was experimented with kvas in garden, well, I used not only kvas. I have made own kefir using tiberan kefir mushrooms and was using leftover and water that I used for washing mushrooms in garden. My garden liked my treatment.
I will continue my experiments next year, this time separate areas where I am using kvas for areas that I am using some other amendments.


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Dubai-gardener, if it smells bad even just a little, better throw it away and try another batch (yes, I'm Russian :) I don't know but hope that there is more than LAB in kvas. Fermenting flower is like making sourdough starter, so it should host LAB and fungi.
Nandina, thank you for sharing your experience. Reading this thread I wondered where are all the people who tried this :)
Nc-crn, I keep my "kvas" in the refrigerator for more than 6 months now. I take some of it to use, add a little bit of sugar and some water to bring it to the level it was, mix well and give it another week or so. It still smells like kvas ( luckily I remember how kvas should smell :)


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Yeah, my recipe is based on a single culture production, not a continuous feeding/recharging.


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550 calories; 31 grams protein; 18 grams carbohydrates; 2 grams fiber; 38 grams fat; 13 grams saturated fat; 115 mg cholesterol; 6 grams sugar; 909 mg sodium.
Organic seeds exporter

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic seeds Exporter


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Gvozdika, but didn't Valerie and others said it smells bad in the beginning? And Valerie said that wholemeal flour would be worse. Am I missing something? Я запуталась по ходу дела.


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Btw, the spam from "Earthendelight" isn't talking about anything in this thread.

Oddly, it happens to be the nutritional profile of a Wild Game Meatloaf recipe posted from the LA Times two years ago.


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Bots have their peculiar ways to intrigue people :)
Dubai-gardener, from my understanding, we are trying to catch and grow some microorganisms using different mediums in different environments. Our results may vary widely. We don't have any lab equipment so we have to use our senses (and our common sense :) to judge if we have the right guys after they settle in there. My first batch didn't smell bad at first and then it got a funny overtone. The next batch didn't have any bad smells and I kept it for almost a week. I was reading about capturing beneficial indigenous microorganisms at that time so I kept the jar by the open window. The place where we lived had very nice fungal activity (I used some soil from there to bring my dying camellia back to life!) Just keep trying and experimenting, it's fun! Udachi!


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We'll gvozdika I went with my gut feeling and threw the batch away, will try again.


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  • Posted by vjeko Croatia, 9 (My Page) on
    Fri, May 30, 14 at 15:24

I have read both threads about kvas but may not have grasped everything in detail - I would appreciate if I could get a confirmation/clarification on a few points:
(a)container does not need to be closed
(b)container should not be shaken (Would shaking the container have an adverse effect / formation of CO2/gases ?)
(c)after several days the sediment is removed.
(d)If (a) is true, is the only way one can tell that the kvas is bad is if it smells bad ?

Other than the above, I am also interested in using kvas for fermenting grass/compost etc.. In one of the posts, it was mentioned that kvas should be diluted 1:10 and could be used as EM/directly for fermenting. I guess that the fermentation still needs to be done anaerobically. I have taken two 15l paint buckets and have filled them with vegetable scraps, grass etc. sprinkling kvas (diluted 1:8) on each layer and compressing each layer (eg. 2cm) until filled. Not sure if fermentation will work as one of the buckets seemed to be creating gases/ I needed to put some stones on the lid to keep it closed. I'm not sure if opening the bucket will kill the whole process/how long should I wait before opening ?


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  • Posted by vjeko Croatia, 9 (My Page) on
    Sat, May 31, 14 at 4:07

forgot one more question:
what is the final say on adding sugar/molases etc. at start/ afterwards regarding producing a more acidic/yeasty kvas
(sorry if it is a stupid question but no time to brush up on my chemistry) and if such a thing as a more "yeasty" kvas exists, can it produce fungal problems if sprayed on plants ?


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Just my thoughts on this, but I think nc-crn's recipe with rice water and milk is the best for plant use.
nc-crn, what about using acidophilus pills or other lacto-pills that can be bought over-counter for use? How would you whip up a recipe using that?


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

Having kvas on hand when those summer vegetables start producing is also a good idea for making Okroshka, a chilled summer soup that I actually like quite alot.


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RE: One of the best recipe 2

I'll have to look that recipe up. I started some as well, just because I like to learn through experimentation.


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