I have a hard time believing nothing happens when you spray with insecticidal soap and neem, unless the formulation is too weak. Spray all surfaces of plants with neem, often, and when you scratch the soil spray that too, very well. You can't do it once and call it good and come back next weekend. Start there. Ladybugs will not eradicate every aphid if they hang around your yard.

Dan

veggiedreams

It would be helpful if you'd list the vegetables you're growing. They may all have different pests, and you may need to treat them differently.

You're sure about the aphids, yes. I know they can be destructive, but they should be eradicable with just sprays of water that knock them off the plants, and they die. I'm more curious about the "gnat-like" insects and any other insects you see. Can you take pictures? If not, can you describe them and notice which plants they seem to like?

The gnat-like insects may be aphids with wings.

I, too, am baffled that the neem isn't working. I've been drenching every square inch of the plants' leaves and stems, and pouring it into the surrounding soil at least once a day for over a month. Sometimes I spray 2-3 times per day, because new ones seem to move in within hours. I'm following the manufacturer's directions of 2T/gal. Once or twice I've tried a higher concentration, which has burned the leaves.

I've got all kinds of veggies in the plot. They started attacking their favorites and have now moved to the less desireable. The only thing they haven't touched (yet) are the carrots, though they might be sucking on those beneath the ground (which is what happened to the daikon radish--lots of greens and a shrivled up root). In order of their preference, I've had (or have tried to grow): bok choi, mustard greens, turnips, chard, radishes, sugar snaps, pole beans, beets, lettuce, and arugula.

I'll try to take a pic, but I haven't yet been able to get my camera to focus on them because they're so tiny. The mites are barely discernable, about 1/10 the size of an aphid.

I'm starting to think I have mutant aphids or something...

Are you using pure, cold-pressed neem oil or some other prepared concoction that is likely lacking most of the azadirachtin because of how the oil was processed?

I always have very good results with Dyna-Gro's neem oil when using this method:

In a 1 quart spritzer bottle, mix:
1 pint very hot water
1 teaspoon neem oil (cold-pressed or virgin oil only - Dyna-Gro packages a very good product)
2-4 drops Murphy's oil soap
Shake well and add 1 pint of 70% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol.
Spritz
Shake frequently while spritzing. Be sure to cover the entire plant. Don't spray in full sun. A little more Murphy's is ok, but unnecessary if using the isopropyl. Repeat at 1-2 week intervals as needed.

Al

Understanding the Aphids life cycle might help some. Aphids can produce live young almost as soon as they are born so by the time you see an Aphid you may well have 5 or more generations in various stages of development. An Aphid has a life span of about 30 days from birth to death. The simplest method of control of Aphids is a sharp stream of water to knock those you see off the plants. This control needs to be repeated because as soon as you knock off one generation the next moves in to replace them. The generation you knocked off the plant dies because they have no idea where they came from and don't go back there.
Aphids can also be an indication of nutrient imbalances in the soil since they much prefer plants with lush green growth, ie. too much Nitrogen in the soil. Take a good look at your soil, when was the last time you had a good, reliable soil test done?

..... and the azadirachtin in cold-pressed neem oil is a chemosterilizer that prevents future generations from becoming sexually mature and disrupts the metamorphic cycle. I know which one sounds better to me.

Al

Mother Nature sends in the kill forces as soon as it is recognized that unhealthy plants exist. Over fertilization makes long weak cells. While the plant may be a lush green and seemingly well just the opposite is in play.

For the past thirty five years I have used nothing but Neam or other horticultural oils to maintain control. You mentioned moving in new soil. Perhaps you bought a pig in a poke.....so to speak. I do wish I was close enough to spend some time in your patch. I do not understand why you are not getting control with Neem Oil. Spraying once every ten days should have done the job. You mentioned spraying three times in a single day.

I suggest you contact a local farm agent and or Master Gardener. I think it is hands and knees time. That help should be available. Is there a local garden club? Call and ask for help.

docgipe, you are new enough that you probably are not aware that I completed all the requirements for and was certified as a Master Gardner in 2001 and completed all the requirements for and was certified as an Advanced Master Gardener in 2003. So veggiedreams has talked with a person with MG training.

And I teach MG classes and see the cross-section of students. Nonetheless,

Doc has an excellent set of points, take some soil to the Extension counter and have an agent look at it. The too-much N is a likely culprit, and someone else telling the OP what is said here may tip the balance. I'm another who wonders why neem isn't working and some eyes need to look at the situation to get the full story, not what is given here.

Dan

Ay yi yi! I've taught Master Gardener classes, too, Dan. I know EXACTLY what you mean, lol.

veggiegardener, what is the name brand of the neem you've been using? Perhaps we can come to some sort of conclusion about its efficacy if we have that information. Also, did you use a home-brewed version of insecticidal soap or a commercial brand? Oftentimes, the home made versions can be utterly useless (no directions and all that kind of stuff).

Lolol - I lecture, do demos, and conduct workshops for many Master Gardener's clubs, as well a whole host of other garden-related and community clubs, too. I also took MG training years ago and was a MG. My own experience and my continual rubbing of elbows with the gardening community as a whole, and with MGs specifically has shown me that being a MG gardener means little more than you're willing to perform the required community service to keep your title. There are very knowledgeable MGs and AMGs, and there are MGs and AMGs that don't know a hoe from a sown row. I mean how knowledgeable do you have to be when given a week to take an open book test?

You really do need to get these critters identified and then correct the cultural issues that are allowing these burgeoning pest populations and/or get started on a workable IPM program, and a trip to the Co-op Ext Service sounds like a logical next step to me. I will take just a second to reiterate that the TYPE of neem product you use has considerable impact on its effectiveness, and particularly its long term effectiveness.

Al

Hi all--

The neem I've been using is Green Light Neem Concentrate, which lists Neem oil as 70% of its composition. (Not sure if it's cold pressed.)

The "soil" I've added to fill this new raised bed is about 70% of a local premium blend, recommended by our city's gardening classes (http://www.garden-ville.com/4429764_36600.htm --they call it 'rose soil,' but it's what they recommend for veggie beds as well). I had bought a half-yard, which wasn't quite enough, so I added some bags of various composts from HD on top. I haven't added any additional fertilizer.

I'm beginning to think the mites are actually the more urgent problem, and I think these may have been brought in from one of the HD bags--either the pine bark fines or manure compost, which were both also added to the pots, now riddled with mites. (The mite activity in the pots is noticeable within a day of filling/planting the pot. Having never encountered mites, I didn't think much of the little soil critters, focusing instead on what was going on above-ground.)

As an experiment, I worked in some DE into the top few inches of soil in the containers. It seems to have taken care of the mites, as far as I can tell. (Unless they retreated further down into the soil...is that possible?)

In contrast, my well-established, 5x20', in-ground veggie bed (on the other side of my yard) is flourishing with happy plants and beneficial insects, which seems to confirm that the aphid/mite/gnat issue stems from some bad soil. Ugh.

Al......of course I do not recognize and would have no reason to care to much about earned titles. I have seen and been with the best and the worse Master Gardeners. If you name a hundred of any like title I would be able to say the same thing about them.

I am a ROADS SCHOLLAR. I love to talk one or two on one standing knee deep in poison ivy. Going down the roads I still play "How To Tapes" on the way many times to meet someone else who will either teach me something or learn something for the time envested. We have been "HOW TO" teachers owning a school to teach true Antique Doll Restoration. We have done the whole national media trip. I personally still like it best knee deep in poison ivy to make a point.

Now my wheels of life are starting down the last road. I may be able to enjoy the helping part of this site for some years. My hands no longer fit the hoe handle.

I was one of the first in the country to begin using aerobic compost tea from proven tested base materials. For at least ten years now I have a standing offer to anyone and specifically the County Agents office and the Master Gardeners. It goes like this. The learning is relatively simple. I will give you hands on training in my back yard one on one or class you set up for your friends free. It will take one evening and one three hour following evening attendance with camera and note books. Coffee will be provided. To date no County Office interest, no Master Gardener Interest, no local garden club interest. Now is not that a pretty good status of the day report?

On the subject of the Worst Master Gardeners meaning ones who may not have been in the "A Row" in class. My opinion is that just presenting a slide show with very simple subject matter looks good to entry level gardeners. The Master Gardeners courses that I have attended were not open to discussion or question. All materials originated at Penn State University. It was in one of those courses I learned that Comfrey was a horrible weed and should not be used. My Comfrey is grown in a K-Mart huge plastic containment planter. Makes enough for a whole year of Comfrey Tea on my property. I would offer that knowledge as a bonus to anyone interested in what has been happening here for over thirty five years.

We are 98% organic here. We lie about the other 2% Our patch is now down to patio pots. They are in keeping with my opening statement in this paragraph.

It occurs to me that this is the perfect situation to test what Valerie from Russia has been espousing; antioxidants repel insects. Veggiedreams, would you try an experiment? I can assure you that it will do no harm as I have been working with the following formula and using it heavily for the past five months with interesting results. But, I have not been able to try it on unwanted insects because I do not have any at the moment.

The formula is easy. Let a one gallon milk bottle of water stand overnight to remove chlorine or use rain water. Add to this 6 tablespoons of rye flour and two tablespoons of unsulphured molasses. Cap tightly and place on kitchen counter for three days. Shake often. Then strain contents of bottle through a coffee filter, pour into your hose end sprayer, set the dial for 8 oz. and spray your insect infected garden. Repeat once a week making a new solution every week. Pour any leftovers around plants of your choosing. If you decide to try this, please report your observations. Did it work? Did it stop your insect problems?

A few general thoughts on this formula for those interested. I have planted my veggie garden so I can continue experimenting with this rye flour formula, separting rows, treating one and not the other once a week using the formula full strength, pouring it down a row. Note: it does not have to be strained in this situation, only when it is used in a sprayer. The results I am observing encourages me to ask you all to trial it. See if you notice a difference in plant growth. And, if you are fighting an insect infestation does spraying with this formula control them?

A professional organic grower recommended planting nasturtiums as "bait" plants to attract aphids. You can then pull up and discard any infested nasturtiums. Same thinking behind the planting of rose bushes to attract june bugs in vineyards.

Trap crops are an important part of IPM and lessen the pest pressure - they don't eliminate it. Just a part of the strategy, not all of it.

Dan

The product that Valerie from Russia has presented is already a proven fine product. Using rye flour simply makes it easier.

I have used the commercial variety for years. My application is foliar and drench. When my existing stock of this product runs out I will switch to making my own from rye flour.

Where I differ is that first I start an aerobic compost and earth worm cast tea at about the same time I would start the rye flour tea. I make forty gallons of the aerobic teas and bring two gallons of the rye flour tea to the larger brew.

Delivery is by sump pump and garden hose with thumb over hose to apply softly and get a drench of both teas at the same time. This is the best of both worlds. I have been doing this all over my property for ten yeas as a combination product delivery.

Application by normal garden pressure tanks is very harsh. If you do not squash them with pressure at the nozzle they may live to break their little necks while hitting your plants in excess of a hundred miles an hour.

I make about seven brews each growing season. The first rinse watter gets saved for the house plants the next day.
All residual goes back to the compost piles.

All I can say is I have slaughtered millions of aphids with insecticidal potassium soaps and my fingers and I'd put this method over anything suggested above. Of course in you have a large area of land to manage, its impractical, but for a home garden it's a good way to learn to see your plants differently, as a predator searching for your prey's habitat and it gets you peering at the undersides of leaves and stems, where you might notice other pests/pathogens or cultural problems.

I never expect to extirpate aphids here, especially because of their symbiotic relationship with the Argentine ant that's here to stay in LA, but I know I need an hour a week just for aphids right now. As Dan noted, it's reducing the pest pressure the best you can, while minimizing collateral damage that is important and many of us have evolved our own particular styles. I'll fight the spring aphid infestations on my gaura, but let it go later on. And I did interplant cilantro that I let bolt to attract lacewings and ladybugs in that bed.

I have never found neem to be broadly useful and I don't like the sheen it leaves on most plants after application. And while it is completely disgusting to squish stem after stem of squirming aphids into goo, maybe the act of killing another creature should be repulsive, even if deemed necessary.

Ladybugs annihilated my aphid infestation, I love em. I have never had to use any other treatment.

Dear all MG,

I am new in this and am planning to use the neem oil as overall care for my organic farming, one of my counter-part hesitant of my choice, can anyone could answer me if nee oil will affect soil microbes condition? ie benefit the microbes, harm the microbes or no affect at all.

Your view highly valued.

Thank you

Our neighbor used worm casting tea to spray on her tomato plants to eliminate aphids. She also uses worm castings as a soil amendment for the microbial activity and to help control harmful nematodes. After seeing the results we now are raising nightcrawlers for the castings.
The tea spray really works as do the castings in the soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nightcrawler Castings