burra_maluca,Yes it can be done and like yourself, I am also tired of the negativity about using organic fertilizers in containers. There seems to be a following about 100% organics in containers will not work, be erratic, unreliable, unpredictable, will not grow, will die, etc. I proved them wrong as the pics speak louder than words, or is it "A picture is worth a thousand words"? I will not be told I have to use chemical fertilizers to grow successfully in containers, especially berries my family eats. "Stuck in their ways" was not directed towards you at all. Sorry out of time for now it's late and I have to work tomorrow.

I've been thinking, which is always a sign of trouble to follow, and I was wondering if I could do a double-whammy when I water the containers by making up an aerated compost tea including urine?

In aquaponics, they pump 'dirty' fish water up to a growing bed and then let it empty out again into the fish tank, the theory being that bacteria will convert the urea/ammonium into nitrites and then nitrates which get used by the plants and the water returns to the fish 'cleaned'. Presumably this bacterial conversion to nitrate happens *in* the water??? So would it be possible to brew up some compost tea with a dollop of nice active compost and an aerator and then add urine which would be converted to nitrates which my container plants could use? It would also innoculate the potting compost with bacteria, which might or might not survive long enough to start creating a mini-soil-food-web. I could make up a batch once a week or so and maybe this would help ensure my plants can make best use of what nutrients I have to offer. Maybe I could throw in a handful of any leafy weeks or banana skins or something to boost and balance the nutrient level too.

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

FWIW - I have never said that growing organically in containers wouldn't work, or that you should use soluble fertilizers. That's a personal choice; but I have seen people by the hundreds if not thousands abandon the practice because of the problems they encountered and the unsatisfactory results. Personally, I don't see anything unusually spectacular about the bramble in the picture above. They're genetically extremely vigorous and very easy to grow in anything but maybe molton lava. ;o) . If it was simply pictures that told the story or provided ample support for a perspective, I and many others could post hundreds of perfectly healthy and very productive plants grown in a soil with an extremely small organic componant (only 1/3 fir bark - the remainder inorganic mineral) using only soluble fertilizers.

No one, including me, is trying to seperate you or anyone else from your moors. I'm no slouch when it comes to container culture and I have the advantage in having grown in mediums like you are using and trying to use organic soil amendments as supplememts. On a personal level, I found the results unsatisfactory. There is also no denying that a huge number of people over the years have switched from growing in heavy media based on peat and/or compost, and I have yet to see any that decided to go back. That alone is a rather powerful testimony.

Our minds are like parachutes ... functioning best when open. If you're quick to allow, as am I, that my way isn't the only way, you'll need to allow that because so many have expressed their reservations about growing things in containers while relying only on the purest of organic methods and have fled to alterenate methods w/o looking back, that they just might be on to something.

I listed the things that need to be overcome in using all organic methods, but you didn't reply to anything except to say that your way works ok for you and to post a picture. I said that all organic methodologies which include growing in compost presents the issues of
1) High water-retention
2) Reduced aeration when compared to bark-based soils
3) Unreliable and erratic delivery of nutrients due to large fluctuations in biotic soil populations
4) Difficulty watering properly so accumulating salts are flushed from the soil because you risk root rot (see 1&2)
5) Frequent N immobility due to the tendency to use unfinished compost
6) In some cases, excessively high media temperatures due to the ongoing breakdown of unfinished compost

If you could reply to these specifically, and then list the downside of growing in highly aerated soils using soluble fertilizers (other than shorter watering intervals) we're on the way to a meaningful discussion that will help people decide what dcourse they prefer to steer. ;o)

Al

Al, you do understand this is an Organic Forum right ? I don't think people who are participating in this forum for the very purpose of growing purely organic container plants want to hear your praises of chemical use. Just because you gave up on an all organic approach and your methods didn't work,doesn't mean that you have license to judge other methods that work successfully or expect others to follow your path. If you want to continually bash everyone's decision to use 100% organics, please go somewhere else because you sound like a broken record. Please,respect the organics forum on GW.

I'm not bashing anything or any one. What I just said are legitimate issues faced by anyone who is trying to grow in compost and maintain an all organic approach to container culture. In fact, they are issues faced by all container gardeners, but some methods allow easy resolution while other methods simply exacerbate the difficulties.

Instead of taking me to task, perhaps you could take a more positive approach and tell us how you deal with the issues I noted, or point to anything you think is an illegitimate observation or in error. Either I'm wrong in my thinking, or you must be annoyed by accurate observations. It doesn't make sense to ignore a perfect opportunity to clear the air in favor of complaining because I don't do things in a particular way. I've noted that I maintain a near 100% organic approach in the beds and gardens, and it works very well, but what works in the garden is often completely out of place where container culture is concerned. Should I only be allowed to talk about that half of my gardening experience? Do I get expelled from the club for being a strong proponent of organic methods on only one hand?

From the original poster: " .... well, to be honest, I've always questioned to myself whether organics in container plants is effective and fully applicable. What I never thought to question was whether this was a true concern to the population, I just thought I was unenlightened on the subject. SO.......no I'm not hard stuck on organics in containers if it's not completely successful."

If you take a look at my subsequent post, you'll see I directed the OP to another forum, but Kimmser & others seemed to want to keep the conversation going. I had stated my case and would have been happy to move on. Now I'm just waiting for you to comment on the things I noted or just drop it altogether.

Take care.

Al

it's good that al is being subjective. I agree, that just you shouldn't have to go 100 percent organic in order to be able to make discussion in an organic forum. I too have had trouble with the techniques of container culture which were instructed by 100 percent organic gardeners. like someone said, something work better for some than others......
and besides, lets be a little rational when it comes to the eco-aspect..it's different from buying a few 40lb bags or lawn fertilizer or using roundup.....its just containers having chemicals used.....how much salts are u pouring in your gardens and water streams by maintaining beautiful containers???
and i know someone will trow that line back in my face, but just remember, we don't exactly ride horses to work or anything lol. wow this thread opened a can o worms.

Oooops, I never meant to stir up such a can of worms! But then on the other hand some of us don't drive cars, or have much money to buy synthetic fertilisers, or live near anywhere to buy fertilisers, and *do* use horses for transport. Well, in my case it's a donkey these days, but you get the picture. It isn't always a clear cut case of the ethics of organic growing, or even what is and isn't allowed. It's 'what's the easiest all round way of getting stuff to grow given what supplies I have and what much money I have' *combined* with the ethics. If there's a way of getting my back yard plants to grow well without having to spend time and money fetching NPK from shops, I'll take it. If that also helps with stuff like 'where shall I empty the ash from the fireplace?' and 'what shall I do with the contents of the old mans piddle pot?' then that's an added bonus. It just seems to me that if it's possible to grow stuff organically but it's a bit erratic, we should be able to figure out first of all *why* it's erratic, and then figure out a solution to it.

Not everyone is going to want to do all the fiddling involved of course, but at the moment when people like me decide to read this forum to see 'how it's done' I get nearly taken over by the waves of negativity. It's only because I'm as stubborn as my donkey that I'm willing to stick my neck out and ask 'why not help me figure out a better way?'

I've dug out a little plastic barrel, a dollop of half composted donkey poop with bedding, some nitrite test solution (couldn't find the nitrate one, must get some more) and an old aquarium pump which might or might not work. When I get a chance I'm going to set up some compost tea brewing, add a handful of weeds and a splash of urine and see if I can generate something the plants can actually use.

Wish me luck!

I think that when people are firmly teathered to an ideology, they have self-limited many of their best options. When your options are limited, it often makes problem resolution more difficult. It's kind of like saying 'I need my problem solved, but I won't consider option A, B, or C, only D'.

Several times I've seen people on this forum that were obviously having issues trying to grow in heavy soils because of their inability to deal with excessive water retention. Even the simple act of offering the advice to reduce the volume of compost to under 15% and use pine bark as the primary fraction of the soil has met with opposition because someone felt that pine bark was somehow not organic enough in comparison to compost. That is just plain wrong, and it imposes their narrow view on someone who came here looking for help.

If people come here who are obviously having nutritional issues they don't have the skills to overcome, do we ensure their continued frustration by suggesting they stay the course with a minor modification that many of us are able to see as futile, or is it ok to suggest they can get all the nutrients they need in the right ratio IF they are willing to use a soluble fertilizer? Is that offensive to everyone, or just a fervent few?

I've provided a lot of useful imnformation on a wide variety of topics on this and other forums over the years, but when I look upthread, I see it being suggested that I go somewhere else because I dared to offer help that offended someones views. That person had no answers .... was only offended because of my different perspective.

Any time someone offers their parameters and asks for help within that parameter set, I would always do the best I can to help; but if no parameters have been set, it seems a true shame not to disclose options that may be unknown and may have been hidden from the one needing help. That's clearly the way this thread developed.

Thanks for taking the time to consider my thoughts.

Al

you do understand this is an Organic Forum right ? I don't think people who are participating in this forum for the very purpose of growing purely organic container plants want to hear your praises of chemical use. Just because you gave up on an all organic approach and your methods didn't work,doesn't mean that you have license to judge other methods that work successfully or expect others to follow your path. If you want to continually bash everyone's decision to use 100% organics, please go somewhere else because you sound like a broken record. Please,respect the organics forum on GW.

Shorter adherent: clap louder, everyone!

I'm interested in 'crazy burro's' results and hope he will report them here.

Dan

That's burrA, the female of the species ;-)

And of course I'll report my results here. But please bear in mind that I don't really have any experience of container gardening so it's very much going to be an experimental thing and I'll be glad if any of the stuff grows at all. And if you want to know where the 'maluca' bit comes from, you only have to peep into my back shed. There's an incubator full of guinea fowl eggs, the shells of which will be crushed up and added to a load of donkey poop which will be cooked in the old crockpot next to the incubator and used to grow mushrooms before being turned into potting compost, then next to that lot there's a plastic barrel full of piss, donkey poop, weeds, and water collected from the shed roof bubbling away ready to start experiments on the container plants.

I like to think there's method in my madness, but some days I'm not so sure...

I wonder if I dare ask how to ammend the donkey poop mushroom compost to make good potting compost?

Can you post some pics? I would like to see how your project is coming along.

Thanks

"I wonder if I dare ask how to amend the donkey poop mushroom compost to make good potting compost?"

You can't. I'll illustrate: A mixture of donkey manure and mushroom will be a very muddy consistency before you add anything to it (not to mention extremely high in soluble salts unless you leach or it's well-aged and been leached by rainfall), so I'm going to use mud for the purpose of this illustration.

If you start with a bucket of mud, how many BBs or other large particulates do you need to add to it in order to get it to drain and be well-aerated? You can't take 10-20-30-40- even 50% BB fraction and have a mix that is well-aerated and drains well. The mud simply surrounds the BBs and drainage/aeration is as though the BBs weren't even their. The BBs DO reduce the amount of water in any given volume of the mud/BB mix, but they do not change the drainage characteristics, nor do they change the ht of the perched water table. Even at 60-70% BBs, the mix remains water retentive and poorly aerated.

Now, lets look at a different scenario. Start with a bucket of BBs. We have wonderful drainage, spectacular aeration, and NO perched water to deal with. We also have virtually no water retention; BUT, if we add a LITTLE of that mud to the BBs, we're starting to get some water retention. We can probably add up to 20% mud to the mix before we start to see any deleterious effects in the properties I mentioned.

If you START with large particles, like pine bark fines, you can amend it for water retention by adding a smaller fraction of material like compost or peat, but if you start with fine material, you cannot amend it to give your plants their best shot at growing as close to their genetic potential as possible. The reason I can issue such a blanket statement - that you cannot amend it - is because as illustrated, you would need to add in excess of 50% of large particulates to do it, and then you would essentially be amending the larger particles with the mud. I suppose you could CALL a soil peat or compost-based if either was the largest fraction of the soil and there were multiple other materials comprised of large particles to make up the lions share of the total volume, but I shouldn't have to work so hard to qualify what I said because the point is so easy to visualize and understand.

No matter how you grow - I wish you success.

{{gwi:3266}}
Al

It will be a while before the first batch of donkey poop is converted to mushroom compost, but from the way it behaves in the compost heap I'd be surprised if it will be 'muddy'. When it's in the compost heap the problem I have is keeping enough water in it and I'm forever having to water the heap and put plastic covers on to keep the moisture in, so I'm not sure drainage is going to be a problem. Similarly my heaps always stay aerobic, unless I forget to cover them if we have torrential rain that lasts for several weeks. It's my first time at growing mushrooms though, so I've no real idea what the properties of the finished mushroom compost will be. Time will tell.

As for the salts, I'm not sure on that either. Donkey does have access to a salt block but she doesn't use it much and the rest of her diet is just straw, garden waste and rough grass so would it really be much higher in salts than if I just composted those things bypassing the donkey?

You seem to be saying that bark fines will improve drainage while peat will worsen it. At some point I have to add a layer of clean material such as peat on top of the donkey poop to 'case' the mushrooms and encourage them to fruit. I basically have a choice of either straight peat or a potting compost based on peat and bark. As the price is similar I'm going to go for the peat/bark potting compost so the resulting mushroom compost will have a higher percentage of nicely draining stuff. Also, I'm happier buying something with less peat in it, and I'm also determined to do *something* you've suggested else you'll be convinced I'm just out to be awkward...

I'm not really fussed about the semantics of what ammends what, I just want to make the best use of the resources I have and buy in as little as possible. Would any bark fines I add to the mushroom compost to make up a potting mix have to be composted? Or could I just get in a load of pine bark from the sawmill and use it as donkey bedding until she has pounded it all up with her dainty little feet and turned it into fines?

By the way, your illustration with the BBs and mud was great, but it took the Burra about ten minutes to figure out what BBs were - ball bearings, right?

Experiments with the compost tea still progressing. I've consulted with some aquoponics experts and they recommend passing water through a gravel bed rather than just aerating the water as the bacteria work much better on a surface rather than just floating about in the water. So it looks like I may have to set up a fishless aquaponics system, maybe using the gravel bed as a place to strike cuttings. The barrel has been set up and bubbling for several days now and so far no nitrite nor nitrate has been forthcoming. I shall keep experimenting though!

If you need surface area for the bacteria, consider lava rock instead of gravel. The chemical consistency of lava rock is highly variable, so depending on the course you could get very different results. Ideally, you'd want a lava rock that is inert. If you trawl the fish forums online you'll find tests to determine if the lava rock is inert.

A highly porous concrete would also provide more surface area, or dead reef rock sometimes sold as "lace rock". Both the concrete and sea rock would have a high aragonite content, so they might change the water chemistry in good or bad ways. It may be a good source of calcium for your plants and could buffer your pH.

Well, BBs could also have meant the pellets you load in a BB gun.

I actually wasn't making any suggestions - only using illustrations to explain the science behind water retention in container media so you have the information you need to make your own decisions. We would be wise to raise long term aeration of container media above concerns other than possible phytotoxicity or allelopathic properties of the ingredients. Structure is much more important than what nutrients are in the media. You can adjust all the other requirements a plant has, but it's exceedingly difficult to adjust the amount of air a soil will hold after it's made.

BBs are little spherical projectiles, .177" in diameter (.187 is 3/16"), that are used as ammunition for air guns, but 'ball bearings' works for the illustration too.

Al

Watch out! You'll put yer eye out with that Red Ryder!

Interesting discussion. I grow everything in containers organically using tapla's soil/bark mulch recommendations, some of my own compost, plus wicking the bottom of the pots and standing each pot elevated on bricks. I fertilize with Neptune Harvest 2-3-1 fish and seaweed fertilizer every two weeks plus a handful of epsom salts spread on top of each pot once a month. I do work small amounts chicken manure into my compost pile several times a year. Plus I use Espoma Bio-tone Starter Plus; a handful in each planting hole and two handfuls on soil surface of each container just once while planting. Yes, I truly believe in this organic product which contains Mycorrhizae. It makes a difference especially on tomatoes, peppers, herbs, strawberries, most ornamentals. Not all plants utilize it but most do. Note to Dan...you really should try this. It can be added to the top of containers now even though we are into the growing season. I find it at Lowes or Ace Hardware.

To burra...yes, you can use the pine bark straight from the saw mill. I have done that with no problem. Suggest you collect lots of it from there and pile it up on the back forty for future use. The best garden I have ever seen grows on an old southern plantation purchased by a friend. Out horseback riding one day he found the remains of an old sawmill and large piles of decomposed pine bark. He trucked that back to his raised beds, used only that for soil and the productivity of his garden is amazing. Pine bark is your best friend for container growing. As to your other projects I will be interested in your reports.

Seems like the chemical sales-people have invaded the organic forum. Instead of spreading their BS on us they should be using it!!!

..... and instead of being trite and throwing stones from the sidelines, you could contribute something meaningful. ;o)

Al

I did contribute a lot I cut thru the BS and got to the truth of the matter.

I did contribute a lot I cut thru the BS and got to the truth of the matter.

Did you indeed? And exactly what do you perceive to be the truth of the matter? That those of us who garden and grow extensively in containers and choose to maximize our results by not following total organic principles are all "chemical sales-people"? What nonsense!!

Not every gardening situation can be approached optimumly by adhering to 100% organic methods. That is just a simple fact of gardening life, irregardless of one's philosophy. Sure, you may get some qualified success using organic methods in container growing and if "qualified success" is sufficient, then by all means, go for it. If you want consistent, proven success and maximized yeilds, you may need to amend your approach to consider non-organic nutrient supplementation.

The bottom line is that a 100% organic approach to fertilizing container gardens has significant drawbacks -- primarily the lack of naturally occurring soil organisms in a well-aerated, durable potting soil to digest, assimilate and deliver nutrients in a plant accessible form. If the organisms are not present or present in sufficiently high populations, you are simply wasting whatever insoluble organic ferts (and the vast majority ARE insoluble) you are applying. Why it should be considered pro-chemical to suggest that a different approach might offer better, more consistent results and higher yields just indicates a huge lack of understanding of the unique conditions and requirements of container gardening. And that is the "truth" of the matter.

FWIW, all of us "chemical sales-people" that recommend considering a non-organic approach to fertilizing container gardens, tend to be 100% organic when approaching inground gardening so your 'theory' flies out the window. But we share an understanding of how container soils work - vastly different from inground or landscape soils - and how they need to be supplemented to maintain optimum plant health and production. And organic ferts just do not cut the mustard.

I did contribute a lot I cut thru the BS and got to the truth of the matter.

Arguing with false premises is not "getting to the truth of the matter". It is arguing from false premises, nothing more.

Dan

Opinions are interesting. Too often we allow ourselves to enjoy the comfort of one without the discomfort of thought, exercising that portion of our will which allows us to make decisions without information .... or allows us to make decisions for others. It has never mattered much, to me, if someone wanted to cling to an ideology so tightly that his best hope would be to luxuriate in mediocrity; but I've never been able to understand why anyone would ever want to prevent others from having the information necessary to make an informed decision based on things like facts, logic, reason, the experience and practical application of others, ..... and so on.

People always feel threatened when you chip at the edges of their ideologies because once exposed, you usually end up questioning the ethics which usually reveals some variation of 'me first' on a case by case basis. Combine a large dose of idealism with a rigid ideology and you end up with a very serious blight on the ability to exchange information.

Al

"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason so few engage in it." Henry Ford

When one takes their self-identity from their ideology, such issues as the one I italicized just above are expected outcomes.

Dan

Hmmm - just found out that, for my 'turn pee into nitrate rich fertiliser' experiment, it's going to take six to eight weeks for the relevant bacteria to become established, and when they do I'll have to attempt to keep the levels of urea etc pretty constant or risk killing them all off again. Seems like this is going to be a longer term experiment than I first thought!

In the meantime, a few of my young plants started to look a bit yellowish, so I stood the pot in a deep tray of diluted 'pee-tea' taken from the barrel and they soon perked up and started to green up again, which flies in the face of everything I've been learning. Perhaps there are more bugs in my potting compost than I've been giving it credit for...

Dan& Al --- Are you guys like the Siegfreid and Roy of the Fertilizer world?

You diminish yourself, not Dan, nor me - again, nothing meaningful - ideology ahead of reason.

Al

I'll say this again.

Al's mix is very suitable for organic amendments.

At least, that has been my experience. I have had absolutely no problems using organic fertilizers/amendments in Al's mix.

FWIW, EVERYONE. Let's stop bickering and find solutions to gardening. If you have an idea, great, metion it so others can see your point of view. Every gardner has their own ideology until proven wrong, which in many cases,is how we learn. Even if a few well known members on the forum raise the red flag, so many of us will look the other way due to so many variables in gardening. If someone doesn't take your advice and you know for a fact you are right, let it go.

I used to use miracle grow fertilizer with great success. Then I had a small nursery business where I grew organic herb plants to sell. At that time I switched to organic soil and fertilizer. Since then, I have used Dr. Earth fertilizer - including their (hard to find) liquid fertilizer. Now I'm growing mostly tropicals / sub tropicals but continue with organic only in case I decide to sell some of the plants / products from them - organic plants are in demand.

Since this is an organic forum - all questions should give organic solutions. If a non-organic solution is wanted, I'm sure OP could have easily found another forum which would give non-organic answers (or they would have grabbed a widely available container of miracle grow fertilizer)

So for an organic solution: You can mix in fertilizer when repotting (or in the ground around the plants) and supplement with either a tea made from the solid organic fertilizer, using a liquid organic fertilizer (such as Dr. Earth liquid fertilizer) or make your own fertilizer (using an organic fertilizer as a base - or not)

Even in the same area - most people do not have the same growing environment. There are microclimates, shade / sun discrepancies, wind differences, humidity differences, container differences, potting soil / soil differences, plant growing differences. What works for me may not work for you --- and what works for you may not work for me. Guidelines are just that and you need to find out what works best for you and makes your plants the happiest.

Since this is an organic forum - all questions should give organic solutions.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree :-) There may be many posters to this forum who are unfamiliar with the unique characteristics and requirements of growing plants in containers - again, this is a very different situation from growing plants in the ground - and it may be helpful to them to know why relying solely on organic sources to fertilize containers may not work very well. They don't pose this question on other forums because they don't realize or don't understand that the means to successfully assimilate and utilize organic fertilizers in containers are just not present - the soil biota is missing from container soils or is present in such low and inconsistent populations as to be non-existant. One can fertilize their head off using organics in a container growing sitaution and have 99% of the nutrients applied wasted or not utilized simply because the means to deliver the nutrients to the plants is missing. What's the point of that?? The desire to be organic or adhere totally with that mindset does not always provide the best solutions to various growing situations.......an organic approach does not work equally well under ALL gardening situations, as much as many of us would like it to.

Why give them instructions or advice that is neither complete nor especially helpful......just because it is "organic" so stays within the "boundaries" of the forum? No one is trying to dissuade anyone from using organic nutrient supplementation if that is what they want to do -- only proposing the notion that it is not very efficient, that your plants may/will not be getting the nutrients they require and that alternate methods may/will achieve better results.

Since this is an organic forum - all questions should give organic solutions.

and

Why give them instructions or advice that is neither complete nor especially helpful......just because it is "organic" so stays within the "boundaries" of the forum?

Some would characterize such behaviors as a 'religion'.

Nonetheless, organic gardening/farming requires a lot of knowledge and work, and the uninitiated beginner should have all the information, not just ideologically pure information.

Dan

What I think is interesting is when a new poster comes on board a forum and first post begins telling others what to do. And totally ignoring all the other reasoned discussions that have been offered about the difficulties of organic fertilizing in containers, a special case.

We could probably have done without the scolding and been happy with the poster's own experience and fertilizing regime.

Just miracle grow everything then - who cares if it isn't "organic" just because OP bought organic soil and posted on the organic forum??? If OP doesn't want to grow organic, then the post should have been in the container gardening forum or OP would have bought miracle grow and not be concerned with posting on an organic forum for advise. I have no problem with non - organic but it is off topic on an organic forum.

I'm glad my plants don't know growing 100% organic in containers is suppose to be so difficult.

I'd never consider any information that adds to one's knowledge base 'off-topic' whether it adheres to specific dogma or not. Since the question involved container culture and answer dealt specifically with that issue, there was nothing off-topic about it. Organic gardening methodology was never intended for container gardening and while many have adopted this method for their containers, it is not an ideal situation and therefore other approaches may be more effective and more efficient.

It boils down to whether one is primarily a gardener first or an ideologue. If first a gardener and with an fundamental understanding of how organic fertilizers are assimilated and then utilized by plants and how this utilization is compromised in a container growing situation, then advice that might not include a strictly organic adherence makes perfect sense and is an entirely reasonable approach. If one is first and foremost an organic ideologue and a gardener second, then anything that digresses from organic dogma is considered heresy :-) Typically, ideologues will jump immediately to the underlying philosophy and pay minimal attention to the science. And successful gardening is 95% science and 5% luck :-)

And one must wonder what is the reluctance to accept something less than total organic methods when it has been established that this might be the best/most effective method. Do the plants care from what source their nutrients have been derived? Do they taste any different? One can still observe organic principles with regards to insect and disease control with container plantings - and these have by far the largest bearing on concerns about being organic or not or chemical contamination or residues - but the efficiency of organic fertilization in a container growing situation is definitely in question.

FWIW, I've managed to grow successful, productive, fruiting edible crops in containers without any supplemental fertilization so yes, using organic ferts in a container setting can work. But does it work as well as it could if another, less dogmatic and more thoughtfully considered method were used instead?

Once again, the difference between inground gardening and gardening in containers is significant. And fully organic principles applied to inground growing conditions do not translate equally well to containers. It is a simple fact of gardening life and has nothing to do with adherence to organic principles or not. And very relevant to questions pertaining to container gardening regardless of forum.

If anyone reads the first dozen or so posts, they will see that great care was taken to respect the fact that this is a forum dedicated primarily to organic gardening. I understand container culture very well, and I offered to help the OP within HIS parameters. IOW - HE established the parameters, and I offered guidance based on a broad experience growing a very wide variety of plants in containers. It's very likely that this particular gardener would have been frustrated had he stayed the course most of the overwrought responders would have him follow - no matter HIS success or how HE feels about his accomplishments, so long as he adheres tightly to the very narrow view of a judgmental few.

Just exactly what is there to be upset about? Which of you would have this information withheld from the OP because it doesn't fit with some one's view of how things should be? I find that attitude more than a little selfish. Wouldn't it be better to spend your energies offering constructive and scientifically viable solutions to how to grow in compost various soil amendments, and countering the observations that it doesn't work well because .......? If you can't, then isn't it proper and right to allow someone else who CAN help this person at least speak w/o being stoned from the sidelines?

{{gwi:3265}}

Al

Thanks Al for the pic, it's a breath of fresh air...........
I really like the bird house and the container arrangements are wonderful.

I think Al did a good job of referring the OP to some great information that is relevant to his question. He should not be surprised, however, that he ruffled some feathers when he asked if the OP was "locked in" to organic or primarily "results-oriented." If he truly believes those two are exclusive then I'd say, "That's a pretty large horse your climbing onto, pardner."
Respectfully,
Benne

I'll offer a view from my perspective, then let you decide if the question was appropriate. Deal? ;o)

First, I want to reiterate that I never said you can't grow healthy plants using all organic methods. I have said that it's more difficult, there is less margin for error, and delivery of nutrients from organic soil amendments in container culture is erratic and unreliable. My interest isn't convincing someone who is set in their ways or determined to 'grow organically' to change anything. I have a very long history at GW of helping people to understand plants and particularly how to grow them in containers. IOW, I try my best to see that people have any opportunity I can offer them to improve their growing abilities or increase the satisfaction they get from their efforts. I don't twist any one's arm, I just offer the science and what I've learned from my experience, and let them make up their own mind. To be fair, judging by the questions in my email and the thousands of thank-yous I've received on the forums and in my mail, there are a lot of people who appreciate those efforts. I'm not saying this in a boastful way, I'm simply pointing out that my history clearly shows my heart is in the right place.

I've been at GW for a long time, and I've been through this particular scenario hundreds of times. People who aren't all that experienced are often no different than people with lots of experience. There will always be some that are extremely rigid in their views and some that are open to all input .... some in between, too. Some would never consider a practice that didn't fit into whatever ideology they've established for themselves. It's a lot easier to cut to the chase with a qualifying question than it is to give a lengthy answer and find out that I'm talking to an organic lifer and have to endure a lecture for my efforts. Then, if I get a lecture from the OP, you can bet there will be others willing to jump on the jam pile - witness this thread. ;o)

You thought that it might not be unreasonable that someone would take exception to my asking, "Are you locked into an all-organic approach to container culture or primarily results oriented?, but I think it is a precise qualifying question. The fact is, there isn't much specific advice that can be given to ensure the OP's success from the organic perspective because of the large number of variables, but a raw beginner can follow a few simple instructions that revolve around a well-aerated (organic, if perlite isn't offensive) soil and soluble fertilizers and be almost certain of success. I know this because I've been a part of it thousands of times. It's not just something that "works for me". It's been proven over and over to work for practically anyone with the wont to try it - it's that simple.

If the question I asked seemed inappropriate, maybe it's because of perspective? If you quote from that particular post, it would have been easy to scroll down the thread a couple of posts to where I said, "West - I asked because if you're locked into approaching container culture from an 'organic only' perspective, there isn't much I can do to help you, because the number of variables that come into play make everything pretty much guesswork. If you're results oriented and NOT locked into all organic methods, then I can help you a lot. I don't want to try force you to see things from a perspective you want nothing to do with, so I thought I would take measure of how you feel on the subject .... to see if you're open to discussion or if your mind is set.", which explained the question to the OP and allowed him to set the parameters. In my next post, I offered a link to the container forum, where the discussion could be continued if the OP chose.

I don't know what more I might have done. It was after I had essentially ended the conversation with the OP that the stones started flying, but no one was willing to offer anything constructive. How well something works is very subjective, and the offering, "Well, it works for me" has never been much of a clarion call or convincing support for an ideology. Why not just say "This is the way I've done it for x years and the way I'm always going to do it, and the results are good enough me", and let others plot their own course?

Again, who would have kept the information I offered from the OP?

Al

If the question I asked seemed inappropriate, maybe it's because of perspective?

Absolutely.

I have lots of education and experience and I have no problem deferring to Al.

Al disagreeing with received wisdom on some forums isn't a bug, its a feature. A beneficial feature.

Dan

Wanted to add my less than two cents worth. I have done several year of quasi-experimentation with powdered eggs as a fert. More than once I have yielded equal to, if not greater than, inorganic ferts with watermelons and tomatoes. The eggs are a natural 7-1-0.5. The interesting thing...they act just very nearly as quickly as an inorganic fert. The growth curves are insignificantly different. Anyway, they worked very well for me in containers, but I think eventually one would need some potassium....hope it helps.

When adding fertilizer to your soil there are a lot of different things you can add. You will get the best and healthiest plants that sail through enviromental extremes the best if you stick to mostly organic ingredients. I add small amounts of a bunch of different organic ingredients such as compost, seaweed extract, crab meal, liquid silicon, manure, epsom salt, as well as a granulated organic fertilzer that contains all of the n p k along with multiple other ingredients. The growth rates and yields I get are astounding. I know of a website that has all kinds of great information on organic additives for soil and water that will make plants grow fast and healthy. Check it out at the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: organic fertilzers to add to soil and plant water to increase yields

Sounds like a wonderful way to supplement plant nutrients in your garden and build the soil, but the operative words here are 'potting mix'. Gardens and container culture are distinctly different. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being growing in gardens and beds, and 10 being full hydroponics, container culture is probably about a 7 or 8. IOW, container culture is much closer to hydroponics than it is to growing in the garden; so very often, if not usually, gardening strategies do not work in containers like they work in the garden, which is what we have been trying to get across.

Al

"container culture is probably about a 7 or 8"

Yes, but that's precisely the problem. Hydroponics requires expertise, including the knowledge and experience of applying all ~16 plant elements and timing those applications. The average container gardener doesn't know and probably doesn't want to know. 'Organifying' container gardening provides a buffer and adds flexibility. Decomposed organic matter holds on to nutrients and moisture better and longer than a typical soil-less mix. There's also the advantage of the micronutrients supplied by these amendments. I sure don't want to calculate how much molybdenum to apply to every container. Perhaps it's not the *best* way to grow a plant, but it's more practical.

BTW, I'm not an organic gardener.

end3,

Can tou let us know your fertilizing schedule? Very interesting indeed.

The average container gardener doesn't know and probably doesn't want to know.

Exactly. You cannot purchase a consumer product such as 'X Organic Potting Mix' and 'YFarm Liquid Organic Fertilizer' and call it good.

That is the issue here. The folks who spend 14 hours a week on their tea and seaweed extract, crab meal, liquid silicon, manure, and Epsom salt ministrations are not the Lexus driver who wants to go green the easy way. The OP had an idea that it may not be that easy and the thread was fine 55 posts ago.

Dan

DH - I can't see where it's a problem at all, and if there was, the solution is so simple a monkey could manage it. Besides, taking an all organic approach to container culture doesn't move container culture any closer to gardening; it's still container culture, but nutritionally speaking, instead of knowing exactly what you're applying, how much, and when it will be available, you're left guessing - on all 3 counts - not very practical at all. The practical approach would be to use a soluble fertilizer that supplies ALL the essential elements plants normally take from the soil as soon as it's applied, in favorable NPK %s, AND in a favorable ratio to each other. It doesn't get any more practical or simpler than that. What lands the fly in the ointment is when some few try to trump practicality with their own personal ideologies, and go further still to virtually insist that all follow suit or be looked down upon as unworthy of "gardener". Not all are willing to sacrifice everything on a long list of positives to an ideology.

Al

Hey Preston,
It has been awhile and forgive me for not rechecking the math, but I think 3 tablespoons/sq. ft. is 100 lbs./acre. Don't hold me to that as I am going on memory. Or I think it is about 2 to 3 raw eggs in a 8 in. pot.

The best bet if you want to try it is to mix the eggs into the top inch or two and water as usual. If you just sprinkle or pour on top, it forms a crust that takes awhile to go away. Outdoors is better than indoors as the raw eggs generate a little odor...a couple of days and then it goes away.....it never bothered me too much, but some people it does. Due to the odor, the first two or three days makes the plant more susceptible to small animals, so please be aware of that aspect. But, if you will take the time to mix the powder or liquid into the soil, there is less odor and animal problems overall.

With that dosage, I would say about every 3 to 4 week you would reapply, but that is probably a little more than is needed. I could tell when the plant stopped growing usually. I am certainly not a container expert, but that is what I noticed...the plant would just stop whenever it ran out of nutrients.

Last time I checked, retail inedible egg powder was 60 cent per pound. I realize this is pricey compared to free poop, but it is easy to apply, fast acting, salmonella free, and works well.

Good luck

I say try what you're comfortable with, keep records, and use what works to your own specifications over the years. There is a lot of useful information in these forums. Don't hesitate to be selective in what you do.