Another question...
Can I overapply nitrogen in organic forms in a garden. Meaning, I recognize that certain plants require more nitrogen than others, and that too much nitrogen (at least synthetic forms) is not good for certain root crops etc.
However, my understanding of organic ammendments is that they are only used as required by the plant.
If this is true then wouldn't it stand to reason that I could apply say a heavy rate of bloodmeal to my entire garden plot and not be concerned that my carrots are going to not grow properly because they have access to too much nitrogen?

Excuse me I'm out here spading and thinking...
When you fertilize before planting, do you typically broadcast fertilizers (before tilling in) over your whole garden area including pathways or just the rows? For that matter, do you till the pathways or just the rows? For that matter, do your pathways ever become incorporated into the garden, or do you establish rows and pathways with the thinking that that's the way your garden will stay.

Just thinking that if you were only to focus on ammending the actual rows with fertilizer, mulch, compost etc, expense would be cut down. But, at the expense of what?

I understand if you don't till the pathways then it's probably impossible to plant cover crops there so that complicates things for me.

Anyway, just wanted to see how some of you approached this.

Eddie

Can I overapply nitrogen in organic forms in a garden.

Absolutely. It's incredibly unlikely you would ever overapply any nutrient by using compost, but many grain meals such as soybean meal can be overapplied. Blood meal also can be -easily- overapplied. However, my understanding of organic ammendments is that they are only used as required by the plant.

This is an often repeated myth. Supposedly there is some communication process whereby the plant signals the bacteria to use the organic matter to produce just what the plant needs when it needs it, but this is demonstrably false. While there are examples of symbiotic plant/soil fauna relationships, in general the organic matter is consumed by the soil critters to suit themselves without regard to any plant life in the vicinity.

In regard to your question of hom much and how often to apply N, there is no easy answer. It depends on the needs of the plant, and the rate of break down of the material. Blood meal is almost instant release, but doesn't last long. Grain meals take a week or so in warm, moist conditions and generally will last a month or more. Composts vary enormously in their N content and release rate.

Organics in general are governed by soil activity and soil activity is governed by temperature and moisture levels. Warm and moist=fast release cool and dry = very slow release.

Fish emulsion is better used as a soil drench than a foliar feed. Foliar feeding is very inefficient and therefore it works best to quickly correct micro nutrient deficiencies rather than supplying macro nutes like N needed in larger amounts than can enter via the leaves.

Justaguy-
thanks for the info and clearing up at least one myth for me.
So, it's definitely not a put blood meal down at the beginning of the growing season and you're done for the rest of the season.

Now that I understand that, let me bring up the following.
I recently talked with a fertrell representative about their products and it became obvious that they had a variety of different components in their product with different release rates, similar to what you are discussing. All of these individual components using the fertrell products would be incorporated into the soil at the same time, recognizing I presume that they break down at different rates.

Well, wouldn't this imply that I could do something similar with off the shelf products?

So, I've got the quick fix part fish emulsion.
Then maybe blood meal.
Then maybe soybean meal, corn meal, alfalfa meal etc.
Then what?
If you could design a combination of products to initially put down before planting, what would it be?

Or, if I wanted to just use blood meal for instance, how long would you say the MAX it could last would be, say for feeding brassicas (sp?)? Tomatoes?

If I mess up and guess wrong, and the plants show it, do I just give them a shot of fish emulsion or what?

You mentioned fish emulsion is better as a soil drench. Application rates on the bottle indicate around every 3 weeks. How do you determine how much you put down at each plant as a drench? Just looking for something to gauge by. Is it a gallon, a quart, a cup or what for say one large tomato plant or one cabbage that's starting to get up in size.

Then, there's the question of green manures and chicken litter. If I use either of these, how long can they last using the same examples.

I know there are no hard and fast rules here. I'm just trying to get in the ballpark because I really don't have a clue as to quantities.

Surely someone out here has a rough ritual that they use for their organic gardens, that can get me started on the right path. What do you do?

Any help "designing" a program and understanding this would be much appreciated.

Eddie

So, it's definitely not a put blood meal down at the beginning of the growing season and you're done for the rest of the season.

No, it is more like 'whoah, my plants have an obvious N deficiency and I need to correct it ASAP, so I will use blooodmeal'. Bloodmeal is kind of the organic equivalent of Miracle Grow in that it acts fast and doesn't last long. It requires little in the way of soil fauna processing prior to being usable by plants. I recently talked with a fertrell representative about their products and it became obvious that they had a variety of different components in their product with different release rates, similar to what you are discussing. All of these individual components using the fertrell products would be incorporated into the soil at the same time, recognizing I presume that they break down at different rates.

I know nothing about Fertrell products. However, there are makers of organic and partly organic products (Epsoma) that combine ingredients to have different release rates to provide more sustained feeding and fewer applications. This is similar to synthetic fertilizer products that have various coatings of various thicknesses to vary their release rate. Well, wouldn't this imply that I could do something similar with off the shelf products?

Yes, you just need to know what each 'product' brings to the table in terms of nutrients and how quickly/slowly those nutrients become available to plants. This can be a bit complicated which makes pre packaged solutions attractive despite their greater cost. If I mess up and guess wrong, and the plants show it, do I just give them a shot of fish emulsion or what?

I would suggest that you focus right now on raising the overall fertility of your soil generically. Add generous amounts of organic matter: compost, manure, table scraps etc. What this does is it gets your soil into good shape to grow most anything. After that you only supplement what is lacking.

There really is no point in chasing nutrient deficiencies. It is a losing battle. Build up soil fertility generically and use fertilizers to make up for what is lacking only.

Unless your garden is pure sand in the desert or on a beach your soil will hold on to all nutrients long enough to be used up by plants. The sole exception is nitrogen which leaches and becomes a gas easily. For this nutrient alone many organic (or synthetic) growers supplement during the growing season. For all other nutrients a regular addition of organic matter is more than enough.

My advice for adding N is to forget about blood meal as it is usually expensive and it is easy to over apply.

Personally I use soybean meal for my lawn and my gardens. It is roughly 7% N by weight. To fertilize the lawn I spread it at the rate of 10-20lbs per 1,000 sq feet which amounts to a light dusting. This lasts at least a month for high N plants such as turf grass. There is more than N in the soybean meal, of course, but it is the N that I use it for.

Please, when growing in soil (as opposed to containers) don't focus on fertilizers, but instead focus on overall soil fertility. Raise it up with organic matter and only supplement as needed. N is the nutrient most likely to require supplementation.

justaguy-
Thanks a TON! You have no idea how you've helped me get a handle on this. I see now that I've been fighting a losing battle for 3 years now, trying to use blood meal as my primary nitrogen source. I think it explains a lot about the state of my garden in general.

As of now, my intent is to start building the soil with organic material. My main plan is to do this with cover crops and green manures and incorporate those into the soil, hopefully on a biennial basis. If I can pull this off, do you think that in itself will supply the needed organic material to the soil that I need? Recognizing of course, that I may need to supplement with nitrogen sources as you have pointed out to me.

Here's my "problem". I'm interested in composting- really, I even have the cages for it in my front yard that I throw stuff in) however I keep running into various walls with it. Primarily, I'm concerned about what I bring in and the possibility that I may be bringing in "stuff" that I don't want. Meaning, I'm in chicken house, turkey house, horse country heaven around here, but I'm just paranoid about using those materials because of all the synthetic things that go into these animals. So, I'm reluctant to use it. I have started at times to locate organically raised animals to get manure from, even for purchase if necessary, but thus far haven't been able to pull it off. I'm also interested in raising some of my own livestock (on a small scale, probably just enough to supply my family garden with materials but that's down the road also.
Similarly, I have concerns about bringing in problems from hay/straw sources that I purchase elsewhere.
So, while I want to do it "all", currently some things are getting in my way... mentally more than anything else.

So, I was thinking that if I could pull the whole green manures/cover crop idea/program off for the time being , that would allow me to start raising some bantams and or rabbits, catfish etc, with the idea that I'd know the source of my materials. In effect buy me some time until my plan comes together.

Thoughts about this appreciated.

Your comments above bring up a couple more questions for me. You mention (or maybe imply) for your lawn that you could use soybean meal, possibly as much as once per month (and mention that lawn uses a lot of nitrogen). Is it reasonable to assume on average circumstances that this could also be applied to my garden? Meaning, for me to get started SOMEWHERE towards a good garden, that I could apply SBM at the same rates once per month? Or, would this definitely be overkill? Again, really just don't have a clue. Them, if I do use SBM in my garden, is it something that I can just top dress or do I need to incorporate into the soil?
Many more questions (as always) but I'll spare you for now.

Again, many thinks for giving me some of your insight into this, it REALLY has been helpful to me.

Eddie

As of now, my intent is to start building the soil with organic material.

Awesome, this will solve 90+% of nutrient issues. My main plan is to do this with cover crops and green manures and incorporate those into the soil, hopefully on a biennial basis. If I can pull this off, do you think that in itself will supply the needed organic material to the soil that I need?

Depends. Where do you suppose those plants get their nutrients from? In most cases they get it from the soil so turning them under just puts back what they took. If you use a legume then they take nitrogen from the air and actually add something that wasn't there previously. Here's my "problem". I'm interested in composting- really, I even have the cages for it in my front yard that I throw stuff in) however I keep running into various walls with it. Primarily, I'm concerned about what I bring in and the possibility that I may be bringing in "stuff" that I don't want.

This is more a mental block than anything else. The overwhelming majority of stuff you don't want is destroyed or changed in the composting process. Compost is one of those things where you just do it. As time goes on you can do more research and become more particular, but the best way to start is to 'just do it'. Don't worry about perfection before starting. Start first and worry about perfection later. Anything else will just keep you from starting a very healthy habit. You mention (or maybe imply) for your lawn that you could use soybean meal, possibly as much as once per month (and mention that lawn uses a lot of nitrogen). Is it reasonable to assume on average circumstances that this could also be applied to my garden?

Sure, as long as you grow the same things as I do, have the same weather, same soil etc. Again, focus on raising overall soil fertility via the incorporation of generous amounts of OM and only supplement what is necessary. N is the most likely nutrient to require supplementation and soybean meal is a good choice for this, but so is blood meal or a fish emulsion where the first number is highest. More than one way to do this.

If you opt for soybean meal I would say a 'light dusting' once per month will prove more than adequate for most crops and may even deliver so much N that N sensitive crops like tomatos and peppers get huge with little fruit. I would love to give you a program to follow, but you have to trial and error it to get a feel.

When it doubt the best policy is do nothing.

If you are feeling really lost and just want a recipe then do this:

This fall get a large amount of manure and pile it 2" thick on the garden areas. Just leave it sit and in the spring when the weeds start sprouting turn it all under. Then plant. In all likelihood this is all that you will need.

Eddie,
Hi, been reading your thread with interest. I've been gardening off and on for a long time but, am NO expert in any sense. I do nothing special at all to my plots, and they produce in abundance. I'm trying to figure out why your in such a delemia.
Couple of questions...What type soil, are you gardening in? Before, your "dirt" area, was turned into a garden, what was planted there? Had there been heavy chemical use on that area in the past? Does anyone spray pesticides or anything in your area? Hows your bug population? Bees? What's a "normal" summer like for you?
Finally, you said that this years garden was a disaster...well, in what why? Cause the weather has been very untypical though out the US this year, and I don't think many of us were doing a whole lot of braggin.
If you don't mind, a lot of this is for my education, too. Smile. The thing is, I just think your having a devil of a time gardening....it shouldn't be THAT hard. You know what I mean? Thanks, Sue

I wonderful thing about most organic nitrogen sources like blood meal and feather meal, etc. is, unlike chemical nitrogen supplements, they are slow release over a long period of time. Applied a week or so before planting, you can be assured a gradual feed over a long period. For high nitrogen feeders like corn, you can top dress with additional blood or feather meal when it starts to tassle, and jyst scratch it in with a rake or how to keep it from washing or blowing away. A week or so before planting is also a good time to apply bone meal.
You want to be careful not to use too much nitrogen, which can produce large, green vibrant plants with sparce fruit. On the blood meal, 12 % nitrogen is available nitrogen to the plants. Insoluable means, for all intents and purposes, that is is not broken down by water and easily washed away.

Ron
The Garden Guy
http://www.thegardenguy.org
Message Forums: http://thegardenguy.yuku.com/

Sue/Ron-
Apologies for the late reply...
AND, I just posted a very lengthy reply and it went somewhere into never never land. I'm out of energy tonight, so will hopefully respond again tomorrow to this particular thread.
Eddie