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reptilegrrl

Organic Fertilizers and Pest Control

reptilegrrl
18 years ago

Hello, I am new to this forum. I love plants and I have recently planted a winter vegetable garden. Although I have gardened before, it was when I was a kid, in conjunction with my grandfather. So this is my first veggie garden all on my own. I have a houseful of other plants, too.

I am gardening using the {{gwi:158860}}, and I am growing organically. So far my garden is doing quite well and I am happy with it. I am considering using a fertilizer, though, especially since the broccoli is said to be a heavy feeder.

So, I am writing today to get some opinions on organic fertilizers. My plants are planted in a soil mix consisting roughly of one part compost, one part peat moss, and one part vermiculite (there's actually a bit more compost and peat moss than verm, due to my particular situation.) I'm going to mulch things with more compost once my seedlings are a bit more grown. I recently applied some Soil Soup and I will probably continue adding it occasionally; the theory behind it makes sense to me. I use it as a foliar treatment as well as a soil treatment; I mix it with water and "rain" it onto the plants with a watering can. Some people might think that all this is quite enough fertilizer, but as I am growing these things for us to eat I want to give them every chance to thrive and produce.

I have used Ferti-Lome fish emulsion in the past, on my houseplants, and been fine with it. I haven't really seen it to affect my plants in a big positive way, but I haven't seen it cause any problems, either. It's quite inexpensive, which is a bonus (I am a disabled, impoverished college student, so I can't spend a lot of money on this stuff.)

Other things I am considering:
Drammatic Liquid Fish and Liquid Fish & Kelp- this is supposedly better than the usual fish emulsion, since it is processed at lower temps and you get the whole fish, not the leftovers from manufacturing other things. For those of you who have used it, how did it work out for you? Better than standard fish emulsion? Can I just mix it with water and use it to water the plants?
Plant Tone- I've heard a few good things about this organic fertilizer. Have any of you used it?

Regarding pest control: I do not yet have any visible pests, although I do have a spider living in my parsley now, so there must be at least some small bugs about. I've used Orange Guard around the house before with good results, but I am not sure if it's safe for edible plants or not (I've contacted the company and am waiting to hear back.) I've used pyrethrin powder for fleas in my carpet, and I know about diatomaceous earth. I have some nasturtiums growing in the garden to help ward off pests. Anything else you suggest?

Comments (33)

  • Kimmsr
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you have a good, healthy soil for you plants to grow in you won't need "fertilizers", even organic fertilizers. Dig into your native soil and look closely at what you have by;
    1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fillting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it it for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. Your primary concern is the OM level and yours may be pretty good.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your soil smell like. Pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

    5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

    A good soil test, by a good lab, for base soil nutrient and pH levels would also be a good idea. what you have done is okay but not a long term solution, unless you want to make potting soil for your garden annually.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think I'm confused. You are using ONLY compost, peat moss, and vermiculite? You need some soil in there. Here's a good soil mix: 99.999 parts soil (with real minerals - could be clay or sand or anything in between) 0.001 parts compost dusted on the surface. That's all you need to start. Any other organic matter you have in the soil (top soil) may help, but growing in near pure organic matter isn't what most people use.

    Definitely fertilize the soil with organic fertilizer. My favorite is ordinary corn meal because it is so cheap in 50-pound bags at the feed store.

    For sucking insect control, foliar spraying with liquid seaweed every two weeks will take care of most of them.

    Fish hydrolysate is a more complete microbe food than fish emulsion.

  • reptilegrrl
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kimmsr: the SFG method does not require that I make new soil annually, only that I add compost after every crop has been harvested/rotated. I do not plan to invest in improving the soil in my yard; I am a renter and I want to grow successfully now, not in a year or so. I do want to add worms to my bed, though.

    Dchall: Yes, I am using only peat moss, compost, and vermiculite. As I mentioned, I am following a gardening method that suggests this, which has been used successfuly by people all over theplanet. You say "growing in near pure organic matter isn't what most people use." You're right, most people use petrochemically-derived fertilizers, instead of starting with a nutruitious soil mix; most people dig and till and dig some more instead of using soil that always remains friable and almost weed free. I didn't know that organic gardening was concerned with what "most people" do.

    Thanks for your input on fertilizers; it makes sense that fish hydrosalate would be more complete and nutritious food than is fish emulsion. Have you ever used it?

  • mountain_curmudgeon
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some people love the Square Foot method but it is not something that I could afford financially on the scale I need, even if I got over the fact that it wastes a gardener's most valuable asset, the soil.

    This first year of gardening on my rented place resulted in 1600 square feet of raised beds following aspects of the biointensive method. If I had to buy my "soil" and build walls for the beds, I would have gone broke. Amending the sandy soil here to produce a bountiful crop the very first year was an investment of exactly $0.00. I invested only time and rewarding labor.

    Compost made from free manure, free leaves, free grass clippings, free garden and kitchen waste and free wood chips was all that went into the soil in my beds. No other fertilizer was necessary. The compost augmented the already fertile soil, soil that contains the necessary trace minerals needed by the plants, soil whose structure helps bring groundwater up to the roots, soil whose very weight helps anchor large plants and keeps them upright in the wind. The addition of these materials resulted in soil that remains friable and, especially with a heavy mulch of spoiled hay, is almost weed free. Plus it needs little watering. And it was free, other than the time and enjoyable labor.

    As I said, this place is rented. Every garden I've ever planted has been created as if I would garden there for the rest of my life. I may do just that here or I could be gone next year. In any case, the soil I'll leave will be better for it. And did I mention that it didn't cost one thin dime?

    Wayne

  • apcohrs
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you are growing large plants with heavy fruits like tomatos you may be very sorry you did not mix in some native soil with your light mix. A good wind might just pull the plant right out of the soil-less mix.

    I am a firm believer in using tons of compost, but I usually add it to my soil, not replace my soil with it. My flower pots are different - I do used a soil-less mix there, but my porch and stoop are protected from the wind.

  • kris
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't see that what she did was all that different from laying a lasagna bed seem to get rave reviews from many. She laid down cardboard, and then put a mix of peat moss, compost, and vermiculite. OK, Vermiculite wouldn't be used, but it's not gonna hurt anything. She will probably mulch with something leaves etc..she's in TX she will have to. The worms will go right through the cardboard and then deep roots can go down, just like in a lasagna bed. Seems to me like she is soil building.

    I would suggest you seed some greenonions around most everything. Onion seedlings really helped me with the crickets that were eating my seedlings, and now I have scallions all over the bed. If I seeded onions at the same time as say brussels sprouts the crickets seemed to leave the seedling alone (I went through about 3 seedlings before I noticed this was working on a near by broccoli/onion patch)-you have to seed it pretty close. Onions are also supposed to keep rabbits out of the lettuce.

  • username_5
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Folks,

    While I am not a proponent of the soilless mix recommended by the Sq.Ft. Gardening method, it works just fine to grow anything and there are literally thousands of people using it. This site even has a Square Foot Gardening forum as the method has become quite popular.

    Reptilegrrl,

    Do you have the book? In it Mel gives a recipe for an organic fertilizer he recommends with his methodology and mix. I have never used such a mix, but if you want to stick with the Sq. Ft. Gardening approach entirely then this is what he recommends:

    For his all purpose fert:

    1 part blood meal
    2 parts bone meal
    3 parts wood ashes
    4 parts composted leaf mold

    For a high nitrogen fert it is the same ingredients and amounts except the blood meal is increased to 3 parts.

    By far the leaf mold has the lowest amounts of the big 3 nutrients so it would be the one to skip if you can't find it or don't want to take the time to make it. Oddly it is the one ingredient I would most want myself. You can make it yourself by stuffing a bag full of leaves and leave it sit somewhere for a year or two.

    This isn't an endorsement of the fert mix, I am just letting you know what the author of the method you are using recommends.

  • reptilegrrl
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wayne,

    I don't have the time, tools, or the labor to amend the soil here before planting. Nor do I have free ingredients from other people. I am disabled and my goal was to grow vegetables cheaply, organically, and with as little labor as possible. I honestly cannot spread and till here; it is beyond my physical capabilities. You're growing in 1600 sqft; I'm gardening in 16 sq ft (although in future years I will probably add more beds.) You also mention that you had already fertile soil; I doubt that I do. I've seen four earthworms in this entire yard, and one was dead.

    I think it's very sad that I came here asking for advice and most people are compltely ignoring my questions, instead criticizing the method I've chosen to use. It is disheartening to say the least. Why did you in particular even respond? You contributed absolutely no input to my questions. Were you just desperate to criticize?

  • mountain_curmudgeon
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was responding to your statement that you are an impoverished student and described less costly alternatives. Responding to the notion that it's either Mel's Mix or poison-ladened agriculture. Responding to the notion that an investment in improving in soil, rented or otherwise, may not be worthwhile. Responding to the notion that one can't have a successful garden in soil the forst year.

    When someone starts a discussion on these forums, it is not unacceptable for the discussion to go beyond the original question or statement. Can't help it that you are sad about this but that is the nature of discussions.

    Congratulations on your successful garden. Do whatever works for you.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dchall: Yes, I am using only peat moss, compost, and vermiculite. As I mentioned, I am following a gardening method that suggests this, which has been used successfully by people all over theplanet. You say "growing in near pure organic matter isn't what most people use." You're right, most people use petrochemically-derived fertilizers, instead of starting with a nutruitious soil mix; most people dig and till and dig some more instead of using soil that always remains friable and almost weed free. I didn't know that organic gardening was concerned with what "most people" do.

    Your 'tude is definitely showing, lady. As "most people" have already commented, we DISAGREE with your approach. Face it. We're not consciously ganging up on you. That's why you can't get us to agree with you, or even pay much attention to your questions.

    Great organic fertilizers are a mix of small amounts of blood meal, large amounts of ground up grains (including nuts, beans, and seeds), and huge amounts of extremely high protein materials like feather meal. If you visit your local feed store, you will find things like ordinary corn meal (about $5/50 pounds), alfalfa meal ($7/50 pounds), soy bean meal ($10/50 pounds), flax/linseed meal ($10/50 pounds) or other ground up grains. You might find a deal on blood meal in 50 pound bags, but that's a 10 year's supply for small plots. The application rate for any of the grains is 10-50 pounds per 1,000 square feet. 10-20 is more normal but you can go to 50 pounds with no real problems. Start with 10 and see what happens.

    And just reiterate, we like soil with soil in it. Your system reminds me too much or hydroponic growing. Yes you are fully organic but where are the minerals the microbes and plants need? Not in the vermiculite.

  • peter_6
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    reptilegrrl: I would stronly recommend soil. Plants and soil have co-evolved over the last 75 million years or so, so that the accumulated wisdom of plants (DNA if you like) calls out for what the soil has in it.

    As for fertilizer, I would recommend against named products; they only have 50 years of track record at best. It would be sufficient to add organic matter (compost, natural mulches, green manures) and make good any mineral deficiencies revealed by occasional soil tests by using the apropriarte rock powder.

    And as for insects, you will be pleasantly surprised at the shortage of pest insects now that you have sworn off pesticides -- artificial or natural. Weeds, sad to say, are another matter.

    I genuinely hope that this helps. I hate to see unecessary expenditure; save it for good seeds. Regards, Peter.

  • byron
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >As for fertilizer, I would recommend against named products; >they only have 50 years of track record at best

    10-10-10 and DDT was used 50 years ago BTDT

    reptilegrrl

    Just my 2 Garden tone 4-6-6 should be enough Agloflash is another low npk liquid.

    Should make your mix about 50% real soil, Mainly for wind damage. A thunderstorm could wipe out your plants

    Using low N can also reduce pests

    Heavy feeders, NMSU has a fert need chart, Corn = a heavy feeder at N = 4, Chiles a lite feeder N = 1.8

    N = 1.8 = 1.8 lbs of N = 45 per 1000 sq ft

  • Kimmsr
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No matter what you do it takes time for soil to "get better". You simply cannot make soil that is good and healthy overnight and certainly not a good, healthy soil using just compost, peat moss, and vermiculte and no mineral part. Since peat moss has no nutrients in it you need to add something that will supply the nutrients the soil bacteria needs to digest that material as well as what your plants need to grow strong and healthy.
    There are some decent organic fertilizers out there that can assist you in growing relatively healthy plants until your soil, if it is built properly, is in a condition to grow those plants.
    A spider is a beneficial intruder in your garden, although a passive one and nasturtiums are a trap crop, not one used to ward off any insects. Keep an eye on your plants and target those psts you find. If you have aphids a strong water spray so they are knocked off the plant is all that is necessary. Other pests can be just as easily controlled, especially if you have a good, healthy soil, and for many hand picking is the best means of control. Your pyrethrin dust is a last resort control in the garden, not something the reach for first.

  • byron
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >No matter what you do it takes time for soil to "get better"

    Loam wasn't built in a day :-)

  • peter_6
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Byron, you're right, so was Superphosphate -- my great uncle swore by it back in the 1940s-- but they don't belong in a self-respecting organic garden any more than other artificial "bag" fertilizers or DDT for that matter. Regards, Peter.

  • reptilegrrl
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    certainly not a good, healthy soil using just compost, peat moss, and vermiculte and no mineral part. Since peat moss has no nutrients in it you need to add something that will supply the nutrients the soil bacteria needs to digest that material as well as what your plants need to grow strong and healthy.

    Shockingly, people have been using this system for over 20 years and it's working just fine. There is, as someone else pointed out, a forum on GW specifically for SFG and people are having great success with it.

    Compost supplies nutrients to my plants, as do the compost tea and fish emulsion that I add. Peat moss and verm are not the only ingredients of the SFG soil mix; you conveniently forget that the very compost that you mention is there. Is it because you would rather criticize?

    A spider is a beneficial intruder in your garden, although a passive one

    Spiders are far from passive. I take it you don't know much about them.

    I am ware that pyrethrin is a last resort, which is why I am using things like Orange Guard and garlic-pepper tea before even turning to pyrethrin.

    Really, Kimmsr, you have been incredibly rude and ignorant in your responses here. I wish I could delete the whole thread, just so I could stop receiving rude responses that only criticize my gardening method, one which has been used successfully by many thousands of people, for over 20 years. I didn't make a post asking for critiques of SFG.

  • username_5
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't make a post asking for critiques of SFG

    No, you didn't, and I am sorry you got it.

    To get back on track though, the Sq. Ft. Gardening method really doesn't focus much on fertilizing rather it depends on the high quantity of compost and the continual replenishing of the compost to supply the nutrients.

    In the book Mel says that light feeding crops do not require any further feeding with the method and that heavier feeders should be supplied with 2 basic fert sources. High nitrogen and the other a source of potassium and phosphourus.

    Having said there there is little difference from one organic or mineral source to the next among the basic choices other than the relative amounts of the 3 major plant nutrients. You could purchase pretty much any preblended product and it would work just as well as if you made your own using (just as an example) fish emulsion as the high N fert, greensand for potassium and rock phosphate for phosphorus. Or if you wanted to be really au natural you could compost in place in order to get the full nutrient value of materials into the growing medium and to the plants

    What I am trying to say is that you really don't need to be very concerned about the fertilizer you use with this method. Any organic fert, or organic material like kitchen scraps will do. So, your options are wide open, choose whatever you would most enjoy.

  • byron
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SFG

    The one thing that is rarely mentioned, This method is an invitation for diseases in a humid microclime. It only takes about 24 hours for grey mold to spread to every plant.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Really, Kimmsr, you have been incredibly rude and ignorant in your responses here.

    Hey? I was a lot ruder and ignorant(er) than Kimmsr! How come he gets all the credit?

    I wish I could delete the whole thread, just so I could stop receiving rude responses that only criticize my gardening method, one which has been used successfully by many thousands of people, for over 20 years. I didn't make a post asking for critiques of SFG.

    I'm calmed down now. Honestly, I think we were giving you suggestions to improve upon the system you (and thousands of others) have chosen. I think there are at least thousands of successful soil-type farmers roaming around, too. But I agree that our replies have come across as critical of the method. You must know that we are critical of many methods here. Again we are not singling you out. We are singling out the method. I am critical of other methods, too. For example I am rabidly critical of any method that includes tilling, digging, lifting, double digging, forking, spading, working in, or any other euphemism for outright moldboard plowing. So I am critical of at least 15,000 years of arguably successful farmers as well as critical of nearly Ph.D. in agronomy that ever lived. I'm not shy about it either. I am also critical of anything like sterilized hydroponic growing. I am much less critical of your method, but I do prefer to use soil in my own soil. For me I find that having soil in my soil makes gardening much less hassle, and that is one of my main objectives.

    If I was gardening in a soil less mix like yours, first thing I would do is water with diluted milk to infuse the mix with a rapidly decomposing type of protein. If you don't let it stand in the diluted milk longer than a day, the soil should not smell. The first thing you'll notice is that the soil retains water about 1.5 to 2 times as long once the milk gets in there. Actually it is not the milk that holds the moisture but the fungi that decompose the milk. I water like this: when I empty out a milk carton, I refill it with water and water my plants with the milky rinse water. That's all it takes and is a relatively free source of a great protein based fertilizer. And at that dilution rate, you really don't have to worry about overdoing anything. Just don't let any pots sit in the milk water. You can also spray the foliage with that mix.

    Hope this was more helpful than my previous reply. Oh, and did I mention that I like to garden with real soil? ;-)

  • Kimmsr
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am somewhat (not much, just somewhat) taken aback that you think I was rude in my responses to your questions. I think if yoiu read those responses, not as a criticism but as an attempt to help, you would find good information there.

  • TedBell
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm with Dchall_San_Antonio and Kimmsr - you need some real soil with only organic amendments as needed (not vermiculite).

    Also reptilegrrl, this is an organic board, so if you cannot take some thoughtful suggestions from well-meaning people then maybe you should take it own down the road (and take your SFG with you).

  • marshallz10
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with TB and the others. Organic gardening and farming center on living soils, not artificial media.

  • greenathart
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been gardening organically for a while now and I use worm castings. Earthworms secrete a natural, totally organic soil fertilizer known as worm castings. By stimulating the natural activity of beneficial soil micro-organisms and enzymes with natural plant growth, worm castings enhance any soil and create a healthy environment for any plant no matter how delicate it is! I buy 100% organic worm castings from www.soapsgonebuy.com . To use: Simply add one part castings to 3 parts soil or top dress the soil and as you water, the nutrients will trickle into the soil. Worm castings are time released and 100% water soluble. It also makes a perfect primer for new transplants.

  • farkee
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You guys would turn ANYBODY off organic gardening.

    Reptilegrrl, agree completely with your analysis of the tone of these terse/and or rude organic gurus (with a few exceptions) . They are completely ignoring your question--you say you have the plants already in the ground (THAT YOU RECENTLY PLANTED A WINTER GARDEN!!! Duh, does that mean anything to you helpful posters?) and they are lecturing ad nauseum about how you have done it all wrong and how you SHOULD have done it. What do they want you to do--rip up the plants? Cutting and pasting stuff that doesn't pertain to your question at all doesn't take alot of thought.

    Where does the definition of organic gardening say that you have to use soil? There are organic tomatoes being raised in greenhouses utilizing soilless mixes and beneficial insects. ((Google Organic Production In Greenhouses.)) It is frequently recommended that garden SOIL not be used in containers--much better to stick to soilless mixes. Does that mean you can't grow organically if you grow vegetables in containers?

    Finally square foot gardening can be 100% compatible with organic gardening. The author recommends amending with compost--sounds good to me and totally organic. Just use an organic fertilizer if called for and you are set to go.

    I can't understand why they are jumping all over you-you amended with 1/3 compost and plan to do more in the future. You fertilized with Soil SOup (presumed to be organic) and were asking about fish emulsion and pest control.

    Even if they are agast that you did not somehow procur lots of homemade compost and mix it in your existing soil they could have simply said after the season has past why not dig what you have already got into the existing soil though there is really no reason to do so. That is one of the reason to used raised beds in the first place so you don't have to do all that digging. I mix lots of organic matter into my raised beds and also grow cover crops in them during the off season.

    You can now buy a bag of Organic Fertilizer for Containers at Lowes for about $5 --I am sure you could use that in your raised bed if your plants warrant it. That would be cheaper than mail-order.

    It's a bit late but wishing you much success with your garden and there is always more to learn every year (like spiders in the garden are a good thing--I never disturb them. If you are afraid of them just ID them to give you peace of mind.)

  • dchall_san_antonio
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where does the definition of organic gardening say that you have to use soil?

    If you'll search THIS forum you'll find that we cannot agree on what organic gardening is; however, I don't remember seeing anyone promote soil-less organic gardening.

    There are organic tomatoes being raised in greenhouses utilizing soil-less mixes and beneficial insects. ((Google Organic Production In Greenhouses.))

    Besides the fact that we're not talking about greenhouse gardening, I Googled it and got 7 hits. Apparently not as many as even I thought I would get. But besides that, who said anything about greenhouse growing not being organic? Those are completely compatible concepts. But soil-less mixes? Let's quickly review what soil brings to the plant. It brings a support mechanism for the roots. It brings minerals. It brings a place for microbes to hide and grow. Soil-less media can do the same if you add minerals to it. The best way to get just the right minerals is to throw a little soil in the mix. Oops! There's that soil thing again.

    It is frequently recommended that garden SOIL not be used in containers--much better to stick to soilless mixes. Does that mean you can't grow organically if you grow vegetables in containers?

    You're stretching quite far on that one. I agree that this recommendation is frequently made. In fact I'd say 90% - 95% of all recommendations are that soil not be used in containers. I bet if I went to my library I would have a darned hard time finding a different recommendation. They also recommend changing the soil every 3 months and replacing it with a sterilized mix. They usually go further to say that the old potting medium be discarded. Some suggest rinsing your roots in Clorox or alcohol when you repot. Some suggest periodically misting the leaves with alcohol to control the nasties. If this is the way you treat your soil, then you are not growing organically.

    On the other hand, if you leave your potting mix alone (almost no matter what you started with) so the beneficial microbes can establish themselves, dust the surface with compost, fertilize with organic fertilizer, and never spray with chemicals, then you can grow organically in containers. As reptilegirl already pointed out, we are not concerned with what most people do. However we are concerned about what most organic gardeners do. Most use soil. In fact we absolutely rely on soil. She also said she was impoverished. We have all suggested she use soil (a free resource) instead of going out to buy peat moss, compost (the most expensive material in the organic arsenal), and vermiculite. Why are we getting this flack?

    I need to check out Lowe's for organic container fertilizer. I'm intrigued. Are they packaging dried milk, or flour, or corn meal, or dog food? I need to start doing that.

  • reptilegrrl
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dear Farkee: my garden is doing great! I had a little trouble with leaf miners in the chard, and then snails. Diatomaceous earth is controlling those things quite well. I draped a mosquito net over my garden to keep some large bugs off and that is doing its job.

    I am using fish emulsion to fertilize. I've also used some pellets of leftover fish food and they have been quite successful. I rain some soil soup on every once in awhile, and I add compost when I rotate a crop- my crawford lettuce went to seed very early, so I pulled it out, added compost, and planted more spinach seeds.

    Things were slow growing during our chilly december, but things are picking up quoite a bit. The kale is looking like kale, the broccoli is leafing out. The parsley has been growing like crazy since the very beginning, and in fact I have so much I am giving it away. The nasturtiums started blooming in late November or early December, and continue to do so. I have been feeding some of the flowers to my turtles, and leaving the others alone. A few seed heads are developing.

    Let's see, what else? The spinach never caught on the first time, but I've read that that is normal. I replanted it. The green onions are growing nicely, the lettuces other than crawford are still growing with no problems. I cut the leaves every couple of weeks and have a salad.

    I am looking forward to spring- we are planning for tomatoes, peppers, zucchini, and other things. Definitely some basil, since I love to cook with it.

    As I have said, and many people choose to ignore, I live in Houston where the soil is poor. I want to have an actual, working vegetable garden without a lot of labor, and after some months of this, I am sure that this is one way to do it. Everyone here grows with raised beds, except for the people who live on hills and/or have topsol carted in to enrich their yards. Tilling into the soil would be a waste of time and effort. Usable soil here is not a "free resource"; it's something you have to buy.

    It was very nice to get a positive, thoughtful, intelligent response. Thanks for your comment.

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    organic section at lowes is nothing special. The only thing id get from there is liquid seaweed. Maybe organic pest control.

  • farkee
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is Mel Bartholomew author of SQUARE FOOT GARDENING gracing the cover of ORGANIC MAGAZINE (Feb. 1996) (click to enlarge)


    {{gwi:158862}}

    I am not disputing the desirability of building soil over time with the addition of organic matter but home-made compost takes time and is not available to new gardeners anxious to start planting in poor soil or who may not be physically able to score manure, leaves, wood chips, & grass clippings nor have the time to build and improve soil prior to planting. Mel encourages all new gardeners to start composting as he prefers it over store-bought for amending the boxes when you replant.
    You may not like the method as it requires store-bought purchases but for 1000's of people it was their first introduction to successful gardening. I know it was mine and I still use a modified version of raised beds on very poor and nematode plagued soil filled with 70/30 and amended with compost, organic fertilizer, and cover crops.

    (("Thanks for your comment." you're welcome))

  • eric_wa
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, Flame war going on in here. Down a posting, they are burning Organic Magazine too. :-)

    Eric

  • eureka
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi reptile girl:
    Let me say that I understand your feelings of being critizied and your question ignored. I read your original post then everyone thereafter, then back to yours. I'm hoping I can help you feel less attacked and perhaps give you a better understanding of how this site works. I also had an experience of feeling attacked and I barked back, then several people jumped on me etc.

    This is what I hear in your original posting: you are very proud of the hard work you have put into your garden of choice, SYG. You continue to give info about your efforts to provide the best growing mixture and fertilizers that have worked for you. You were not looking for any additional information about soil structure, how you should change the way you garden, etc. you are a happy camper with what you have accomplished and should be. The one question that you asked was what organic fertilizer could you add to your garden to insure the best possible crops. Instead you got bombarded with advice, corrections, suggestions, critisims etc. These are my thoughts that I hope help you; first it is helpful to understand that the people who hang out on the Garden Web are extremely knowledgable gardening people either through university or years of experience or both. These people can help you with virtually any question or problem that you may have. Also just by reading in several different areas you will learn so much more than you can imagine. Now all these experts are great resources but just like a professor, they are quite willing to share their ideas, thoughts, tried experiments and so on. And just as professors in the same subject area, they do not all agree with each others view point or practices. Often many of the postings are the experts discussing between themselves the positive & negatives of what has been written. One thing can be said about this site, there are many generous people who are willing to share their views and that's great. What you probably should do in the future is ask your question, that's it. By putting down so much info, everyone got on board with their ideas, stuff went back and forth and you ultimately felt attacked. They really are not attacking, they are very eager to share their knowledge to be a benefit to you. If you visit again and have a concern or question, I'd suggest giving only pertainent info that would help the other readers to give you exactly what your looking for, no more, no less. Those of us who reply to a post should probably take an extra minute to understand exactly what info is needed and offer only that unless the poster comes back to ask for more info. Efforts to help all who post are truly generous with their time and talent but I can see the flip side, so much response with so much advice and/or critiques can be overwhelming to the newbies. I hate to see & read the sniping back and forth that escalates to a point where some really nasty things are said. I think that before we offer so much advice, we may need to realize that not everyone wants or needs all of the knowledge that we are so eager to share and are then offended "after all we've done" when the writer says "enough." I hope reptile girl that you can see this site in a new positive way. My one big piece of advice comes from a Russian grandma that lived next door years ago. She had several potted rose bushes that produced gorgeous roses and all she did was throw left over vegetables, fruit skins, virtually anything into a pot, covered it with water and left it heat for many hours. What was left she poured on the roses. It sure worked. Last year I had quite a science experiment in my frig. plus stuff to go out to the compost pile. I gathered it all together and decided to put some of the scraps into my blender w/some water and spin for awhile. When I was done I had two big bowls of gunk that I poured on my two Deodor cedars. Within days those trees were sprouting all kinds of new growth on all the branches and both trees became substantially fuller and taller. I thought it was hilarious. Maybe I should repeat that routine and try it diluted much more in several other areas of the garden. I may be on to something. Good luck with your crops, it is fun and rewarding when you can actually feed yourself from your own garden, plus I'm sure the nutrition levels are so much greater than the average found in stores.

  • anaerobic
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Everybodies comments were educational to me and I won't take offense if my ideas are critized. I have posted a discription of a Large Basket Garden that I build for elderly and handicapped gardeners. I would appreciate any comments, positive or negative about what I am doing. In building these round gardens I put quite a lot of vegetable and fruit surplus in layers with the leaves. I think what I am doing is called Anaerobic Digestion. I grow vegetables for 2 to 3 years before I tear it down and then rebuild it. I end up with some really good soil, about 50 5 gallon buckets full to put on top of the new ones. The description of these round gardens is on the first column of The Garden Web forum under Raised Beds for Wheelchair Gardeners. My e-mail address is: msjbaxley@bellsouth.net Be blunt, I can take it. IF I'm doing something wrong tell me what and how to change it. Thanks in advance. Anaerobic

  • dchall_san_antonio
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oooooo, anaerobic...the biggest thing you did wrong here is change the subject of someone else's thread. I can guarantee you that the people you want to see your message will not see it. You need to start a new topic with a subject that will draw people to your concern/question.

    Also if you go to your topic on the other forum, you can copy the URL at the top of the window and paste it into your message here so we can find the cross post.

    And if what you are doing smells extraordinarily stinky, then what you are doing is anaerobic.

  • peggy_g
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    reptilegrrl
    I use fish emulsion and add kelp powder so your choice would probably work fine. Corn meal, alfalfa meal or pellets would also be good. If you want a quick hit of N, blood meal is excellent. It is expensive, but a little goes a long way. You just sprinkle a little over the root zone and water it in. A cheap way to mulch and add organic matter to your garden is to pick up the bags of leave and grass clippings your neighbors put out in the trash. Some people have even had neighbors bring the bag to them! Just ask if they spray with posions! A mix of shredded leaves and grass is gold. You can put these right on the garden, just don't put up against plant stems as fresh grass gets hot; or you can make a pile and let them compost and then use them as a mulch. If you make a pile, you can bury kitchen vegetable scrap in it and let it compost.

    If you have problems with caterpillars you can spray with Thuricide, Home Depot and Ace have it. It is cheap, friendly, and effective. Good luck with your garden and let me know if you need any more details.

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