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Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Posted by mike758 none (My Page) on
Wed, Dec 11, 13 at 9:20

Sorry for my poor grammar in the title, it won't let me edit that lol! I'm a full supporter of organic farming and eating organic. I have a feeling that more people are starting to figure out the negative effects of man made pesticides, fertilizers, and GMOs. I work at a produce market and we never sold organic stuff and we still don't, but I feel like more people are at least asking for it. Demand is important for the future of this stuff. Do you feel like it's starting to make a "comeback"?

This post was edited by mike758 on Wed, Dec 11, 13 at 9:21


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

  • Posted by ericwi Dane County WI (My Page) on
    Wed, Dec 11, 13 at 10:37

Here in Madison, Wisconsin, there has been steady, increasing demand for organic produce over the last 40 years or so. It can be found in the local supermarkets, the local food co-ops, specialty markets, and also at several outdoor farmer's markets, that typically run from May through October. Organic dairy products and eggs are also available. Prices are high, and I don't know anyone who buys 100% Certified Organic.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Huge market in this region, admittedly a trendy one with many shoppers for whom some extra cost is not a major concern.

Even rural central florida, though, has a grocery chain (Publix) with a fairly extensive organic section.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Yes! My local Aldi's has just starting carrying organic produce! Literally just started the other day! Keep pushing the organics guys! If you work at the market, talk to someone higher up and explain to them there is a demand for organics. Where there's a demand, there's profit! Sad to say, They might not dig the organics, but they'll sure dig the profit! Health should correlate with profit, now a days its almost the opposite.. Scary..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

At the produce market I work at I brought up the idea of carrying organic stuff and they turned it down, saying no ones going to pay the extra amount. People do ask for it multiple times a day, so I don't get why they don't at least experiment.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

A lot of people don't even have a clue about what organic is, or what benefits we would incur from supporting the organic and non-gmo projects.. It comes to the point where we have to stop asking for organics and demand organic. Do not take no for an answer..

It gets to me when people say organics are so much more expensive. I get it that some places there is no way getting around paying top dollar for organic,
, i really do get it, and i sincerely feel bad for those(hint:learn how go forage).. But for most of us, it's just a matter of learning how to shop.. The majority of my diet is organic, and i don't see that much of a difference in price. In reality, your probably saving money buying organic..

Besides, what is a few bucks to ensure you have non poisoned food. I bet if you use that line of terminology, a lot more people would wake up and jump on the bandwagon..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

You are right about lack of knowledge. I did a lot of research about the effects of GMOs and learned they are not so good. And you probably heard about how they took back research that showed it causes cancer. But of course there's lack of awareness because the media is not going to soil a multimillion dollar industry and our political figures aren't going to do anything because of the amount of lobbying


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

As I said previously It is always amusing when someone takes it as their life work to attempt to convince those of us that are committed to the organic way of life that we are wrong.
There is much research that shows that organic growers get yields equal to those of conventional growers most years and in years of sparse rainfall organic growers get better yields because their soil holds more moisture.
Much of the research that shows yields on organic farms has been done where good organic practices have not been followed


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Master gardener,

"A lot of people also don't have a clue that- organic farming represents a threat right now to our forests, wetlands, and grasslands (I will get into that in a second)."

Before i start, its important to note that organic farming in this day in age could be done better, there is a lot of room for improvement, i feel we would already have much improvement if they would invest the millions of dollars daily on organic sustainably, how to find healthier sprays, reduce spraying, remineralizing land, improving soil structure,etc, instead of invested that money researching how to develop a plant resistant to sprays, so they could spray the plant even more. If organic gardening is posing such a threat, than it is not truly real organic gardening. It's clear our agriculture system could be a lot better.. This is what pisses me off, if they put the millions of dollars daily that they use to research GMO crops into researching organic gardening and doing things more sustainable, because, after all, organic gardening is all about sustainability. And if you think "GMO farming" doesn't pose a even bigger threat to the environment and life living in that environment, you got a other thing coming..

Another thing,

First an foremost, I'm all for finding a more productive and efficient way to feed the nation. But step back and think about how much sense this makes, we are feeding the nation on mainly grains! Most of the GMO crops we do not even eat fresh, mostly found in processed foods! Most of the grain goes to cattle, which are not even supposed to eat grain, or processed foods (high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated soybean oil,etc), i as a human don't even eat that many grains.. So if they really wanted to feed the nation we would be eating corn on the cob, and hulling soybeans,not corn chips fried in unhealthy hydrogenated soybean oil. What costs more money a corn of cob or a chicken that is feed that corn? Is it really about feeding the nation? I sure really sincerely hope it is..

How about the risk of the farmer, our cattle, our heirloom crops?

The farmer is consistently in the field surrounded in glyphosate, and god knows whatever else. I already touched upon cattle eating grains.. How about the farmers being locked into a contract, where they don't have a choice stop growing GMO crops? How about the "farmers company" monsanto harassing the farmers. What about GMO taking over the seed industry? Its difficult to find heirloom corn..

"Organic farming produces 60% at best that conventional does on a given acre of land. So if we were to support world food needs with organic farming we need 40% MORE farm land. "

Where do you get this? My small 50x50 organic garden supports a couple just fine, I'm giving food away.. Much time,organic actually produces a lot more in my experience.. Also, look at the quality of the food.. Again, both our conventional and organic agriculture systems could be much better today. But, if you grow true organically, resupplying/recycling major/micronutrients with compost, leaves, wood ash,etc, the produce is going to have those nutrients in it. With conventional farming, they merely use three nutrients NPK with a lot of synthetic poisons.. Is that produce really nutritious? How would we feed the world with empty calories, or corn that we really shouldn't eat nearly as much as we do today..

GMO is not about your health,nor the health of the environment, not about sound science, not about feeding the nation, not about reducing spraying, its about money.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"How about the farmers being locked into a contract, where they don't have a choice stop growing GMO crops?"

That's a myth. An easy way not to be a GMO crop farmer is not grow GMO crops. No one is forcing anyone to be a GMO farmer.

Especially in the internet age, if you want a few million seeds of something you can get it.

The only people "forced" to grow GMOs are those farmers who contract with certain grain elevators...such as ethanol elevators that demand certain GMO-enchanced ethanol preferred GMO corn...which is a choice of farmer to get into that system.

"What about GMO taking over the seed industry? Its difficult to find heirloom corn."

That's also a myth. Also, if there was 0 GMO corn it would still be hard to find heirloom corn (in the US) because bred hybrids have been farmer's choice for many decades. Traditional seed cleaning outfits to save corn seed for farmers were already down to a handful before the 1st GMO even hit the market.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Talk to some farmers that grow tons of food. One field they grow is gmo/conventional crops. They only need pesticides once in a while. Now their organic field needs to be sprayed with pesticides so much! And who knows how safe these "natural" pesticides are, they quote.... "If people got out and talked to large farmers they would understand they do things for a reason."
Farmers goal-to give you a product that is SAFE and will make them money.

"Organic farming produces 60% at best that conventional does on a given acre of land. So if we were to support world food needs with organic farming we need 40% MORE farm land. "

"Where do you get this? My small 50x50 organic garden supports a couple just fine, I'm giving food away.. Much time,organic actually produces a lot more in my experience.."

It produces 60% at best! Sometimes its like 20% If we switched over to organic farming- 3 billion people would not have food.....

The OP asked:
Is organic produce starting to increase in demand?

So really it is at question about large ag organic produce, not like your 50x50 farm. I am saying that organic farming is more pollutive per pound produced on a large scale compared to conventional. It is "the biggest scam since bottled water"

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Thu, Dec 26, 13 at 14:47


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Talk to some farmers that grow tons of food. One field they grow is gmo/conventional crops. They only need pesticides once in a while. Now their organic field needs to be sprayed with pesticides so much! And who knows how safe these "natural" pesticides are, they quote.... "If people got out and talked to large farmers they would understand they do things for a reason."

If the organic field was truly healthy, you wouldn't need sprays, because it would be a balanced ecosystem, the good balance the bad. Im with you 100% about the sprays organic use really being safe.. I think you should get back into organic gardening and find out that what you said is actually the opposite in reality. conventional fields are sprayed much more than you think..

"Farmers goal-to give you a product that is SAFE and will make them money."

There are a lot of farmers growing Monsanto's corn that would you they think its unhealthy.. Some local farmers here wont eat the corn.. It's a monopoly, they really don't have a choice to grow GMO, if they want to continue farming like they do..


"I used to grow organic. Now I can see the massive yields I get from fertilizers that have high amounts of secondary macros. Remember these are the same nutrients in compost. Plants only intake the inorganic elements from the compost-plants only intake the inorganic elements (the same makeup) from synthetic fertilizer."

What a joke.. Do you know the world record for tomato's( something like a 30' big boy tomato by charles wilber) was set using strict organic methods? What to you say to that? It produces %60 at best, what a damn joke..

"So really it is at question about large ag organic produce, not like your 50x50 farm. I am saying that organic farming is more pollutive per pound produced on a large scale compared to conventional. It is "the biggest scam since bottled water""

It doesn't matter wether your talking 50x50 or acres, you would still use the same organic methods.. Maybe organic are just as pollutive(which i doubt),if your taking in account transportation of resources and petroleum.. But just look at the field and the accessories they use on the farm, conventional produce is much much much more pollutive than organic..

The big misunderstanding is your looking at the lacking agriculture system now, opposed to looking at how it should be run. Again, if they put the money towards producing plants without any chemical sprays, without the unhealthy organic sprays, and actually focused the billions of dollars on truly healthy methods, organic would be without a doubt superior to conventional, not only would they taste better, be more nutritious, they would do so without harming the environment. It's clear that manufacturing, transferring, disposing of these toxic chemicals conventional farmers use is not sustainable. It's clear that consuming these chemicals aren't healthy. It's clear making compost and using all the organic mater that would otherwise go to landfills is much more sustainable.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Its no joke at all.

Do you know who Norman Borlaug is?

" Dr. Norman Borlaug, Nobel Peace Prize Winning Ag Scientist, says, "The Truth About Organic Foods gives consumers a through and straight-forward explanation of why organic foods offer no real health or safety benefits. More importantly, Avery communicates why organic farming's lower yields and reliance on scarce organic fertilizers represents a potential threat to the world's forests, wetlands and grasslands. The book offers scientifically sound evidence that more-affordable conventional foods are healthy for families and also good stewardship of nature."

The truth about organic foods-book

"If the organic field was truly healthy, you wouldn't need sprays, because it would be a balanced ecosystem, the good balance the bad."

A balanced ecosystem in a high production farm field? Again,talk to some real farmers to understand why this makes NO sense at all....

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 15:51


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Master gardener,

I understand exactly where your coming from.. Organic is used as a marketing scheme and some people are strict organic buyers who are unaware that, if for example they are going to peel a cucumber, they dont need to pay double the money for an organic one, grab a conventional one and peel it. Some people just feel good for supporting organics, whereas its not as eco friendly as they make out. Trust me, i completely understand that.

You make it seem like they are no solutions to make organic farming improvements and much more healthy and sustainable. Lets face it, our cattle is not supposed to eat grains, we aren't supposed to eat nearly as much grains as we are producing, nor is provided the chemicals and resources sustainable, nor do we know if the GMO food is even safe to begin with. It shouldn't take much thinking to figure that out.. If we invest money into actually provided a true healthy sustainable crop production without any toxins what so ever, where farmers grow the soil just as much as the plant, call it "organic" or "permaculture", that is what we should be focusing on. And i guarantee, if just a portion of the money GMO corps spend daily would be invested on a more natural, pure, non toxic, truly sustainable crop production, we would already be seeing much much more benefit of organics than we ever did GMO..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Your very right. Organic really works on a small scale.

Because we need to feed such a high population conventional is the way. I am sure you have heard of "soil mining" it happens a lot due to farmers using synthetics to fit the plants nutritional needs thus not needing all that organic material. so after a while the soil gets lower. And the soil loses minerals. This is because of that high amount of production I talked about. Sure we are destroying the given land used to grow conventionally, but we can grow on less. If you had to rip down a forest to fit the populations food needs organically, maybe that farm land might be a little more "healthy" and less soil mining but it used to be a forest, get me?

We should really be looking at the good practice of each farmer rather than are they growing organically or not. A organic can have good practice, just like a conventional farmer can have bad practice, and vise versa.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Your very right. Organic really works on a small scale."

Organics could work on all scales. Especially if they had millions of dollars to spend daily like monsanto. Actually, the majority of us would not eat GMO crops if they were labeled, but look, everyone is eating them. Is it because we are in dire need of their technology to get the yields we so desperately need so we don't starve to death? Absolutely not, it's the money talking. Money corrupts. When money speaks more than the peoples voice, something is wrong.


"Because we need to feed such a high population conventional is the way."

A true healthy " organic" ecosystem yields much more than conventional.

"I am sure you have heard of "soil mining" it happens a lot due to farmers using synthetics to fit the plants nutritional needs thus not needing all that organic material. so after a while the soil gets lower. And the soil loses minerals. This is because of that high amount of production "

Soil depletion is due to not having a balanced and healthy ecosystem. In fact "soil mining" is one effect of conventional farming.Just like nature, it's in full production, who fertilize's that? Organic plant/animal matter is how she does it(leaves,fallen trees,animal skat/carcass,dead plants,etc). All the organic matter works with a healthy soil food web(worms,spiders,bacteria,fungi,etc). It's this life(food web)in the soil that works with the plant for its nutrients. Plowing,tilling, synthetic toxic fertilizers,pesticides etc, all kill or at least hinder this healthy food web. The more toxic chemicals(synthetic pesticides/fertilizers) the more you are hindering the soil food web. So does it make sense to genetically alter a food to make it able to withstand more toxins? And these plants feed the nation..Natural selection, the strong carry on. For eons nature evolved stronger and stronger, and you think some chemical miracles that only been out for a century or so are going to beat it?

"Sure we are destroying the given land used to grow conventionally, but we can grow on less. If you had to rip down a forest to fit the populations food needs organically, maybe that farm land might be a little more "healthy" and less soil mining but it used to be a forest, get me?"

I get you, but you obviously don't get me. Should we be destroying any land in food production? We should only improve the land, especially in use for food production, not make it more toxic. Conventionally farming is putting toxins in the land, in some time, these lands are going to be toxic, not able to farm. We should not have food and toxin in the same sentence, period. True healthy ecosystem "organic/permaculture" gardening will provide more than enough food for the nation. You just have to try it to believe, we don't need these special plants, nor special chemicals to produce food. Nature does it everyday without them. Learn how to forage, you'll see that there is food outside the grocery store.


"We should really be looking at the good practice of each farmer rather than are they growing organically or not. "

Exactly, we should be looking at the person growing the food. Spraying toxic chemicals on our food is far from a good practice. Come on already, that's mere common sense! If your neighbor told you he sprayed his vegetables he's selling with some toxic chemical, what would you do? You probably wont ever eat your neighbors veges, but she reassured you that she been selling these same vegetables sprayed with her toxic chemicals sprayed on them for decades. Now would you eat her vegetables? You would think she's crazy. Now you know how i feel about conventional.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"I get you, but you obviously don't get me. Should we be destroying any land in food production? We should only improve the land, especially in use for food production, not make it more toxic."

If it was land that was once a forest then even if it is a organic farm, we still ripped a forest down. We HAVE to destroy land for food production whether organic or not. It is a matter of how much land, and the truth is conventional yields more on less land.

I also heard a particular cup of coffee can offer a 1000 times greater 'health' risk than a whole year exposure to synthetic pesticide residue. Does this suggest to not drink coffee? No. It is showing how safe the pesticide residue is.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Sun, Dec 15, 13 at 21:58


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"conventional yields more on less land."

We could argue about this all day. Conventional farming only been around for a few years compared to organic farming. Think about it, why hasn't nature converted to conventional techniques?


"I also heard a particular cup of coffee can offer a 1000 times greater 'health' risk than a whole year exposure to synthetic pesticide residue. Does this suggest to not drink coffee? No. It is showing how safe the pesticide residue is."

Is this an excuse to spray toxic chemicals around our food?


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

For those that are opposed to organic growing of foods I refer you to the 1930's when "conventional" farming practices produced the dust bowl days. The Soil Conservation Service, now the Natural Resources Conservation Service, recommended farming practices that are still followed by most organic growers but not many conventional farmers, evidenced by the bare fields I have seen each fall.
Organic growing is, when properly practiced, environmentally friendly and organic growers, when proper practices are used, have fewer pest and disease problems then will those using "conventional" farming practices and so will not need to use toxic controls for those problems.
When proper organic growing practices are used yields have been comparable to "conventional" growing practices and better then "conventional" during periods of drought.

I have heard from people that tell me "I tried organic gardening for a year and it did not work" and I try to teach them that it takes much more than 1 year to get the abused soil "conventional" gardening/farming practices create to the point that you can begin gardening/farming organically. You cannot plow a field, plant something there, and walk away until harvest time even if you are growing "conventionally" and no real organic grower would do that. A real organic grower will work to be sure the soil she/he is working is made better then when they got it so future generations will have something to work with. A real organic grower will not mine the soil they have charge of and will not use toxic materials to try to keep pests and disease under control since when there is a good healthy soil there will be fewer of those problems.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

From what I understand conventional farming is not sustainable. I don't understand the argument that it's more Eco friendly when it damages the soil used. True organic farming uses methods that happen naturally in nature, so I don't see how it's dangerous. Sure you got people who use chemicals for their "organic" produce, but I'm talking about true organic. But anyway, if you ruin the land you farm on by using methods that aren't sustainable, that's not Eco friendly at all, no matter how much you yield


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Organic growing is, when properly practiced, environmentally friendly and organic growers, when proper practices are used, have fewer pest and disease problems then will those using "conventional" farming practices and so will not need to use toxic controls for those problems. "

Exactly.


"When proper organic growing practices are used yields have been comparable to "conventional" growing practices and better then "conventional" during periods of drought."

I still believe that with proper organic practices, yields will always be improved with organic farming. For one simple fact, because the soil and environment around them is constantly improved. We are growing the food web just as much as the plant. In most conventional methods, the soil is a mere medium to hold the plant roots. They disregard the soil food web and all the life that works to make the soil and the plant truly feel at home and thrive. It's fairly simple to understand that if you put poisons all around the environment, including on top the soil(some even fumigate the soil), till more poisons in the form of fertilizer, spray more poisons on them to for weed control, and top it off with spraying even more poisons on the food that supposed to be consumed. You see, would you live in this toxic environment? Neither will most the soil food web. It's this soil food-web that makes the nutrients bio-available to the plant. What we have to understand is it's not just about nutrients, it's about the mutual relationship between the plants and the soil food web. For example, mycorrhiza fungi works with plant roots, these specialized fungi colonize plant roots and extend far into the soil. Mycorrhizal fungi increase the surface absorbing area of roots 100 to a 1,000 times, thereby greatly improving the ability of the plant to access soil resources. No chemical can come close to mimicking the intricate food web. Conventionaly farming just reduces the food web. This food web is essential for a healthy ecosystem. There is no way to provide a healthy food web with toxic chemicals, toxin and health do not go together.

"A real organic grower will work to be sure the soil she/he is working is made better then when they got it so future generations will have something to work with. A real organic grower will not mine the soil they have charge of and will not use toxic materials to try to keep pests and disease under control since when there is a good healthy soil there will be fewer of those problems."

Exactly.

"From what I understand conventional farming is not sustainable. "

Anything toxic shouldn't be sustainable. If it was we would be sustainably poisoning the planet. How much sense does that make?

"I don't understand the argument that it's more Eco friendly when it damages the soil used. True organic farming uses methods that happen naturally in nature, so I don't see how it's dangerous."

Exactly. I don't understand it either.. It just keeps getting worse and worse. Deeper in the hole.. I seriously think if we don't stand up for whats right, Conventionally is going to take over, then GMO farming. Then its going to be a wake up that the GMO crops aren't safe, then its down path from there. Eventually, a truly sustainable way is going to have to be implemented. People, just like master-gardener are mislead, people actually think we absolutely need these GM crops and all the chemicals involved, when i guarantee there are more healthy sustainable organic solutions..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"People, just like master-gardener are mislead, people actually think we absolutely need these GM crops and all the chemicals involved, when i guarantee there are more healthy sustainable organic solutions.."

It's likely because it's what Monsanto claims. It's just like how people believe anything they say on the news and whatever. I understand where master-gardener is coming from, but it's a poor argument. From what I understand, he's comparing the best conventional farms to the worst organic farms. If both are done properly, the yields should be the same. And organic, again if done properly, may not be as natural as say woodland, but it's way more natural then conventional farming. And something to keep in mind when saying that the chemicals are "safe", weeds eventually become immune to the chemical (super weeds I believe they call them), and then they need even stronger chemicals, so even if they're "safe" now, who's to say they will still be in the future if we continue the trend?

I'm sure there's studies out there but it actually is something that I think would be a cool experiment. Set up 3 of the same gardens, and grow the same crops. Then properly grow organically in garden 1, grow properly conventionally in garden 2, and grow properly with GMO methods in garden 3. Then go back to check your yields and perform some soil test. From my experience, I believe they would all yield about the same amount, but the soil would be more natural in garden 1. It would still make a cool experiment though!


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Posted by mike758 none (My Page) on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 9:12
"From what I understand conventional farming is not sustainable. I don't understand the argument that it's more Eco friendly when it damages the soil used. True organic farming uses methods that happen naturally in nature, so I don't see how it's dangerous. "

Think about all that gas those trucks use hauling all that heavy organic material around the fields on organic farms to meet the crops nutritional needs. Think about that one easy run of application of synthetic fertilizer that is concentrated thus WAY lighter for the amount of nutrition.

It takes more oil to produce a pound of organic produce than it does to produce a pound of conventional produce.

Whats more ecofriendly?

Edit:
We have to look at the big picture.

"I seriously think if we don't stand up for whats right, Conventionally is going to take over, then GMO farming. "

It already has and always will for good reason. 2% of our food is produced organically for good reason. If it was 100% organic we would need to level 40% more of our land.....

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 12:09


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Think about all that gas those trucks use hauling all that heavy organic material around the fields on organic farms to meet the crops nutritional needs. Think about that one easy run of application of synthetic fertilizer that is concentrated thus WAY lighter for the amount of nutrition."

Conventional farming sprays are mainly sourced from petroluem. Besides, aren't we discussing possible ways to improve our current ag system? Your whole arguement is based on conventional yielding much more than organic, which right there dont hold that much weight. Even if it does, that dont say to much, because there is much improvement needed in the system. Furthermore, you make it seem like organic gardening needs huge amounts of oil to transport material, maybe it is that way now, but it doesnt need to be that way. Besides, conventional farms are in much more need of that oil than organic farms, because a lot of conventional sprays are sourced from oil..

Let's say, for instance, new technology found a "organic" way to fuel the world, just like petroluom but with no harm to anything. Organic farmers would adabt that and they would not use any oil. While, on the other hand, conventional farms still need that oil to produce pesticides, fertilizer's etc.


"It takes more oil to produce a pound of organic produce than it does to produce a pound of conventional produce."

What if you only need to eat a quarter pound of the organic produce to get your nutritional needs, but a full pound of the conventional to meet your nutritional needs? Conventional normally just puts down three nutrients NPK. Organic farms mulch with leaves, and other organic matter that has trace minerals. Again, we are talking about true organic farms, if they adapted all the needed improvements. Today, there probably is little difference in nutrition between organic and convention(not noted conventionally produce is irradiated).. But with the improvements that organic farm should have, organic will blow conventionally off the market, not only yield wise, but nutrition.

What's more ecofriendly, spraying petrochemicals or organic based chemicals?


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"What if you only need to eat a quarter pound of the organic produce to get your nutritional needs, but a full pound of the conventional to meet your nutritional needs? Conventional normally just puts down three nutrients NPK. Organic farms mulch with leaves, and other organic matter that has trace minerals."

Synthetic fertilizers also focus on secondary macros in high levels- calcium, magnesium, sulfur... These are very important to the over all nutrition of a crop, whether sourced organic or not. There are no studies that prove organic has more nutrients.( I talked about the science in my earlier posts)

Also, A good example- There are crops that are grown in green houses hydroponically with only synthetic nutrients that are some of the MOST nutrient dense produce ever.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 15:55


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"It already has and always will for good reason. 2% of our food is produced organically for good reason. If it was 100% organic we would need to level 40% more of our land....."

Again I feel like you are comparing the worst organic farms to the best conventional. I can almost guarentee that if we compared 3 gardens like I am said the yields would be the same. I used to use fertilizer and pesticides in my garden, but went all organic about 3 years ago. I still get the same yields.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Missouri...just for an example...crops about 3,500,000 acres of corn.

That wouldn't be able to happen organically...even with a soy rotation...unless Missouri took on a huge influx of chicken/pig/cow production to localize manure sources for organic nutrient supply that's economically viable (and available) for use.

Before we get into "but, they could grow tomatoes and peppers and eggplants and etc!"...well...there's 110,000 acres of tomatoes and 80,000 acres of peppers planted in the ENTIRE US every year. We have corn in Missouri (who ranks 10th in production by state) planting 3.5 million acres...and less than 200K acres of toms/peppers in all of the US. The #1 corn producing state, btw, is Iowa with about 14,500,000 acres. Iowa would HEAVILY need to centralize animal production to create the manure necessary to organically produce all that corn.

...and some will say...we don't need that much corn anyway...yet the world market says otherwise...even if ethanol disappeared overnight.

Corn, wheat, and rice feed a lot of people. The US produces a lot of the world's corn and wheat. It feeds a lot of people beyond our borders. We could probably produce enough corn/wheat/etc organically to feed ourselves (and our animal/meat system) with a mass re-arrangement of the meat production system in the US...but the world on whole would suffer...and so would some international government policy perks that come with being able to produce/export so much food.

Could the mass commercial food system go totally organic? Probably not unless we want to exit the export market and re-arrange the meat production system in the entire nation.

This is an entirely different thing for the home gardener. Myself, I'm not 100% organic because I use synthetic fertilizers (cheap, ease of use, exact dosage without waste) in conjunction with compost. I don't use herbicides and I've used pesticides so few times in all my years I can honestly say they're a "nuclear option" when all else fails.

Taking care of a few hundred feet to a few acres of something organically is a different beast from growing 50,000 acres of something...especially if you have a couple neighbors also growing 50,000+ acres.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

nc-crn

Thank you for your addition to this. You put some light on the subject.

"Iowa would HEAVILY need to centralize animal production to create the manure necessary to organically produce all that corn."

This is a very strong point.

See what i am saying now about the gas it takes to haul all that heavy organic matter. At a mass scale that very reason alone makes organic less eco friendly.

Posted by mike758 none (My Page) on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 17:47

"Again I feel like you are comparing the worst organic farms to the best conventional."

Nope. Its 60% at best. I said this earlier. It is sometimes even as low as 20%.

Again, nc-crn just brought up some great points.

Some things work on a mass scale, some don't.

What if I said that buying produce from a farmers market is less environmentally friendly than going to a large grocery store. Why? Well, it a bit of an economic scale situation. A bunch of different routs taken buy the suppliers (small farmers/gardeners bringing their harvest) in small trucks (small trucks get use MORE gas per TON of goods shipped). As compared to the few direct routs the larger trucks that use less gas per ton of goods.

So next time anyone goes and buys all organic from a farmers market thinking it is helping the environment, think again.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"So next time anyone goes and buys all organic from a farmers market thinking it is helping the environment, think again."

You are right about a local farmers market being a bit less Eco friendly, but remember you are supporting a mom and pop business. This is more political but I would rather hand my money to a family than a corporation. And come to mention it, how much of your precious woodland is your super walmart taking up? A lot. And how much is it hurting your local area? A lot. And I can't even imagine where the produce in your major retail stores even came from or how long it was stored for. I bet you get no local stuff either.

And I like the argument that nc-crn brought up. The only input I have to say though is that no matter how you do it, farming on that big of scale is not sustainable no matter how you do it. Maybe it's what we have to do, and at this point it probably is, but that doesn't make it any more Eco friendly or sustainable. By the way, like natures nature said, I believe that instead of putting more research into how we can use more pesticides, I think it should be how we can better balance the Eco system in conventional farming and lean towards a more organic approach.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Missouri...just for an example...crops about 3,500,000 acres of corn."

We shouldn't be growing that much corn. There's no other reason besides money. The animals arent supposed to eat grain, nor should we to much. There's a reason you wouldnt be able to produce that much corn, we simpley dont really need it.

"I've used pesticides so few times in all my years I can honestly say they're a "nuclear option" when all else fails."

Yes, you understand how toxic they are?

"Synthetic fertilizers also focus on secondary macros in high levels- calcium, magnesium, sulfur... These are very important to the over all nutrition of a crop, whether sourced organic or not."

How about trace elements?


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Yes, you understand how toxic they are?"

Toxicity is relative...especially in relation to what chemical is being used, how it breaks down, what it breaks down into, and how long it takes to break down in a given environment.

I don't use them because I don't need them...because I'm in my plants scouting them regularly...because I address small issues before they become big issues...because I took the time to learn what I'm doing (growing food) rather than jumping head-first into something with more good intentions than good education.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"I've used pesticides so few times in all my years I can honestly say they're a "nuclear option" when all else fails."

"Yes, you understand how toxic they are?"

They have to be toxic enough to control the insects while not harming the plant. Same thing with organic pesticides, they have to be just as toxic to control the insects. We cant judge something right away just because it is either man made or organic. That is a:" naturalistic fallacy"- what is natural is inheritably good, and what is not natural is inheritably bad.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"They have to be toxic enough to control the insects while not harming the plant"

That's part of the problem. This is why like I said there should be more money put into research on how we could use less pesticides. Right now with the GMO's they're basically trying to figure out how they can add more pesticides without killing the plant. The problem with pesticides is that there are good insects in our soil that get killed, "super weeds" are created with a resistance to the pesticide, and I'm not entirely sure they're safe for human consumption. You keep bringing up how organic pesticides are dangerous too, but I'm not supporting that here. I'm supporting how we should steal away from pesticides all together.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"You keep bringing up how organic pesticides are dangerous too, but I'm not supporting that here. I'm supporting how we should steal away from pesticides all together."

Your title is " Is organic produce starting to increase in demand?"

Yes.Organic farms USE pesticides. The organic produce in the store had pesticides spayed on it.

"This is why like I said there should be more money put into research on how we could use less pesticides."

This is exactly what monsanto is doing. GMO crops use LESS pesticides.

" Right now with the GMO's they're basically trying to figure out how they can add more pesticides without killing the plant."

Wrong. They are doing the opposite. These new GMO crops need way less pesticides(, because they have been altered genetically to be naturally resistant) than any of these outdated crop strains that organic farmers have to use.

Non-GMO crops require more oil, work, pesticides to grow.

Its too bad so little people are informed about this.

They see non-gmo on something and think it is a good thing. The truth is, gmo crops are way more eco friendly to grow


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Your title is " Is organic produce starting to increase in demand?""

I know that's my title, but somehow we got into this other subject.

"Yes.Organic farms USE pesticides. The organic produce in the store had pesticides spayed on it."

I don't know how many times I have to tell you, I'm talking about responsible and proper organic farming.

"This is exactly what monsanto is doing. GMO crops use LESS pesticides."

I think your the one who's misinformed. Your just a sheep listening to what your boys at Monsanto are telling you. All that Monsanto is doing is making their crops resistant to their pesticides. It doesn't mean that it's any less. And they're relatively new so there isn't much out there, but I've even heard about GMOs being linked to cancer. If we want farms to be sustainable and truly Eco friendly, we have to go away from the chemicals/fertilizers.

Your argument is like saying that instead of making cars more efficient on gas, we should focus on how to make gas cheaper.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"This is exactly what monsanto is doing. GMO crops use LESS pesticides."

Where do you get that all GMO crops reduce pesticides? Some GMO crops, like bt corn, try and reduce spraying. But from what i understand, it doesnt really reduce spraying.. Contrary, some GM crops like round up ready soybeans, promote spraying, that is the my main problem..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"The truth is, gmo crops are way more eco friendly"

This is literally insanity! Especially if you take in account that we truly do not know if GM crops are even safe. Open your ears, WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW IF GM CROPS ARE SAFE.

Where do you find most GM crops? In processed food, or animal feed. But, where is the fresh nutritious healthy GM crops for a starving/growing population? Our cattle is not supposed to eat grains, so they get all kinds of nasty diseases, have to be treated with antibiotics, hormones, ammonia in ground beef,etc. The animals are severely malnourished because they are not eating the foods they are supposed to eat. The GM crops are probably malnourished to begin with because of bad farming practices, on top of that, they only give a handful of nutrients to fertilize. So we have millions of pounds of poison ridden, deficient foods that go to no good use what so ever, besides the money being made from them.. GM crops do very little good, on the flip side, they do very much harm.. We are spraying more poisons than ever, harming our health, harming our animals health, and harming the environment.

People believe that GMO crops are the most environmentally friendly plants, really?


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"People believe that GMO crops are the most environmentally friendly plants, really?"

Thank you. It's a shame these people actually believe this and then try to call us out. But I'm pretty much done with master gardener, I don't know if you saw but he claimed that food in the big retail stores is more Eco friendly then farmers markets.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

It is more than a shame, it's Our future. If it was a mere shame, i wouldn't waste my time..

Master gardener did bring up some good points, however. Organic farms need much improvement. Our whole entire ag system needs improvement. That is what i keep redundantly repeating. I am merely pushing for a more healthy, non toxic, way to do things. I am merely pushing for the truth, and what i feel is right.

1. We shouldn't introduce foods into the food system until they are 100% proven safe

2. We should not invest all these resources in something that is a mere gamble, we don't even know if its safe

3. We should not introduce hundreds of acres of GMO crops to the outside world, until we are 100% sure of all the consequences.

3. We should not have any toxins, especially synthetic toxins on or around our food.

4. We should feed our animals what they are meant to be fed.

5. We should feed ourselves what we are meant to be fed.

6. We should feed the soil what its meant to be fed.

All these things are just common sense, common sense goes along way.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

It is more than a shame, it's Our future. If it was a mere shame, i wouldn't waste my time..

Master gardener did bring up some good points, however. Organic farms need much improvement. Our whole entire ag system needs improvement. That is what i keep redundantly repeating. I am merely pushing for a more healthy, non toxic, way to do things. I am merely pushing for the truth, and what i feel is right.

1. We shouldn't introduce foods into the food system until they are 100% proven safe

2. We should not invest all these resources in something that is a mere gamble, we don't even know if its safe

3. We should not introduce hundreds of acres of GMO crops to the outside world, until we are 100% sure of all the consequences.

3. We should not have any toxins, especially synthetic toxins on or around our food.

4. We should feed our animals what they are meant to be fed.

5. We should feed ourselves what we are meant to be fed.

6. We should feed the soil what its meant to be fed.

All these things are just common sense, common sense goes along way.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Your argument is like saying that instead of making cars more efficient on gas, we should focus on how to make gas cheaper."

No. My argument is quite literally like saying- making cars more efficient on gas, and cheaper."

Simple economics. GMO-making crops that are LESS pollutive per pounds produced due to the reasons I listed above in my other posts.

Organic crops use more-gas/time/money/land/ to grow making them more pollutive to grow at the scale that is needed to fit our populations needs.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

What a joke.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

As you can see my brain is working at full capacity with all of the nutrients I have consumed from inorganic produce....


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"As you can see my brain is working at full capacity with all of the nutrients I have consumed from inorganic produce...."

Is that supposed to be a joke? You are starting to sound like a spammer. No one said that eating inorganic was going to kill brain cells. And if anything inorganic produce has less nutrients...


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Perhaps it's the beneficial effects from the pesticides.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Is that supposed to be a joke? You are starting to sound like a spammer. No one said that eating inorganic was going to kill brain cells. And if anything inorganic produce has less nutrients..."

"And if anything inorganic produce has less nutrients"

Scientifically, that makes NO sense at all.....

Read my above posts to find out why....


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Almost 30 percent of the corn grown in the USA is used for ethanol with almost 50 percent used for animal feed which is one reason the cost of food for humans is getting so high.
The shills for the synthetic farming industry that appear here keep repeating the same fudgey facts that have been shown by reputable researchers to be in error. Rather then spending your time and energy arguing with them ignore them.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Kimmsr,

I'm glad to see someone view this subject from my perspective. I almost thought i was the crazy one..

Again, why are we growing so much corn? It's sure not for health or starving people. After all, Corn is not even that nutritious. And of course, the millions of animals were raising for food is only as good as the deficient corn, but even if the corn was nutritious, our cattle is not designed to eat it. Just like corn was not designed with BT. It was created that way for a reason.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Again, why are we growing so much corn?"

...mostly because people like to eat meat...and they want good cuts without paying a lot of money for it. This is a rather new phenomenon since the 1970s for most of the US that doesn't live near meat processing centers. The "beef roast" and whole roasted chicken used to be pinnacle of middle class...now it's New York strip steaks and boneless chicken breasts.

Animals eat most of the corn...and we eat them (well, those that choose to eat meat).

The amount of corn that goes into chips and other foods is rather miniscule...heck, sweet corn + corn-on-the-cob is a blip on the corn radar.

Long story short...cheap meat production...and even without subsidies it would still be their #1 feed source.

As far as animals not being "designed" to eat corn...animals we eat for meat are not "designed" to live long. The fact you can get a hog to slaughter size in 5 months or a chicken from egg-to-slaughter in less than 2 months is a testament to an animal that was selectively bred to die young. If they lived full lives, it would not be a happy life. If some people think what we, as humans, are doing with dog breed selection and health issues/genetics are bad...the meat industry would terrorize them...and this is before we put a single antibiotic, medication, hormone, or food type in them.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Nccrn,

I'm glad to hear the honesty in your last posts, i appreciate it. Im also glad that you "kinda" get a little of what i am saying.

"As far as animals not being "designed" to eat corn...animals we eat for meat are not "designed" to live long. "

Thats interesting, because carnivores tend not to live very long either..


"Long story short...cheap meat production...and even without subsidies it would still be their #1 feed source."

Not only is it cheap meat, it is low quality, and lacking the nutrients wild game, or properly raised animal tissue would have. Not even getting into the chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, arsenic, etc..

"We" are doing everything half ass, as cheap as possible, harming our health, harming our animals, harming our environment, for what? A bloody steak? We all know how healthy red meat is, especially the excess we eat nowadays. Is it really worth the gamble?


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Is it really worth the gamble?"

Alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen linked to 5%-ish of all cancers...tobacco contains many Group 1 carcinogens linked to 20%-ish of all cancers. Even a lot of people who won't touch a cigarette/cigar will knock down multiple 5-20%+ by volume glasses of alcohol over the course of a night/week/month.

People gamble with their health all the time. Meat consumption isn't very high on a lot of people's worry lists. The best most people do is try to not eat too much red meat or wild-caught fish/shellfish from sketchy waters (which is a lot of them these days).


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen linked to 5%-ish of all cancers...tobacco contains many Group 1 carcinogens linked to 20%-ish of all cancers. Even a lot of people who won't touch a cigarette/cigar will knock down multiple 5-20%+ by volume glasses of alcohol over the course of a night/week/month."

If it's a carcinogen, harmful to us, or the environment, it should be banned, that simple. No amount of money is worth living in a toxic slew.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

The cattle, for the most part, only get fed grain/corn in the last year or so of their lives. A lot of professional chefs prefer to use corn fed beef.

I also talked to hunters that said the pheasant they hunt has gotten tastier over the years due to the large corn fields they tend to fly down on and 'graze'. The more food the pheasants eat, the healthier they are.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Thu, Dec 19, 13 at 16:46


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"The cattle, for the most part, only get fed grain/corn in the last year or so of their lives. "

Where do you get your information from?

"This gets them a lot of fat, and contributes to the marbleization of the meat cuts. "

Feeding cows corn contributes to a sick cow, and poor quality meat. Take a visit to a slaughter house, see for yourself. Cows being fed an improper diet(corn) actually have lower quality meat.

"A lot of professional chefs prefer to use corn fed beef."

Funny, it's well known that most chefs prefer organic.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"The more food the pheasants eat, the healthier they are."

The more food the healthier, really? We already see where that gets you.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"The more food the healthier, really? We already see where that gets you."

Either over weight, or very strong.

Depending on caloric deficit.

Sure, I dont think it is ok to have cattle trapped their whole life in a cattle house close to each other. I am just saying a lot of 'corn' fed beef graze in an open field then are rounded up at the last year of their life into the cattle yard, or what have you, and fed plenty of corn to get them up in weight ect.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Thu, Dec 19, 13 at 19:28


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Sure, I dont think it is ok to have cattle trapped their whole life in a cattle house close to each other."

Well, That's the persona you give to others. That is what you're supporting when you taut GMO and conventional produce like you do.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Hey look what I found in a few mins of research. What I have been saying before this whole time about gmo crops using less pesticides and increased yield -

"Critics say that GM-crops only benefit the big seed manufacturers. What is your experience?
Well if you look at pest resistant GM cotton in Burkina Faso, the experience is quite positive. If you compare the local, non-modified cotton to the genetically modified variety you see a yield increase of about 30 percent. The increase changes with the pest challenge, the more insects the greater the difference you will see."

"The use of insecticides, and therefore costs for the farmers, decreases as well. Normally you have to spray six times, with the GM cotton you have to spray about two times. This also benefits the health of the farmers handling the insecticides."

Source: http://knowledge.allianz.com/environment/food_water/?503/will-gm-crops-feed-africa


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"Hey look what I found in a few mins of research"

That's the problem. With a few minutes of research I can find all the benefits of GM crops too. But if you take the time to look more into the actual problems (i.e. sustainability and safety of the products) and even some potential problems, they are out there too. And even if GM crops do offer a small benefit, you have to wonder if the benefit is worth the risk. I would rather have money go into something that will be beneficial and safe.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Naturalistic Fallacy- the claim that what is natural is inherently good or right, and that what is unnatural is inherently bad or wrong.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 11:08


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

  • Posted by pt03 2b Southern Manitob (My Page) on
    Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 13:14

Thoroughly entertaining thread.

Lloyd


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

We are way under estimating soil erosion.
Row cropping needs to be cut back regardless of organic
or conventional.

We need to eat more goat.
It has a much high feed conversion ratio than beef cattle.

We need to eat more duck and goose.
They will eat far more forage than a chicken.

KJV Isaiah 51:6 - ... the earth shall wax old like a garment ...
In other words, someday our soils will become threadbare.

We are way under estimating how scarce fossil fuel and chemical
fertilizers will become under a war time scenario.

And we are way under estimating climate change.
Grains suffer far more under extreme climate than forage systems.

We need whole systems where foraging hogs follow cattle to gain
efficiency from coprophagia.

We need systems where sheep are used instead of mowing.

We need blood and bone worked back into the soil where
it came from.

We need to eat more fruits that are easy to grow without
pesticides and herbicides instead of the tastiest fruit
that cannot survive without being constantly sprayed.

We even need GMO that are tested properly.

We need to completely rethink everything.
Including what we eat.
We will spend ourselves into banckrupty given our
current dietary practices.

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden For Nutrition

This post was edited by GreeneGarden on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 19:38


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Why did you delete what you said GreeneGarden, I though it was pretty good


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

You did change the direction of the discussion, but that's alright because this discussion has already been far off my original question, which is whether or not organic is increasing in demand. That's alright though because I enjoyed the discussion. But I agree with your view on the fact that the whole system of the way we farm needs to change. I do believe that in the system we have now, organic is the better way to go, but then again the system we have now can be improved on.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

" I do believe that in the system we have now, organic is the better way to go, but then again the system we have now can be improved on."

Did you know gm crops, organic farmers cant use gm crops btw, need less tillage there for cut down on soil erosion? They also need less pesticides, and yes, organic farmers use plenty of harmful pesticides..


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

mike758, I see more and more organic foods available around here. I bought some swiss chard the other day and the organic was the same price as the non-organic. Didn't check the other produce. BTW, the stickers on the produce you buy has a 4 digit number on it. if it starts with 3 or 4, that indicates pesticides and or herbicides were used in the growing. If it starts with the number 9, it is organic and if starts with the number 8 it is GMO. Nothing starting with the number 8 comes to our house.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

PLU codes are a guideline, but they aren't official or universally adopted. You'll be hard pressed to see any PLU labeled GMO sweet corn or GMO papaya (none that I know of)...same for the 3/4 pesticide/herbicide thing (which I have never heard of).

It's mostly a supplier/inventory management tool rather than a consumer tool.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 20:14


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

I've heard about the code thing before, and I'm pretty sure it's accurate whether it says organic or not. The problem though is since GMOs aren't required to be labelled, I've heard this doesn't apply to them. But most fresh food is currently not GMO at this point anyways


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

mike758, I was checking these labels at a couple of supermarkets, which are not sku numbers btw, and the organics that were labeled and the non-organics that were labeled with the extra tag were 3/4 or 9. Obviously, I found no label starting with the number 8 because they are not required to and they don't want you to know that information. JMO


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Just throwing this out for what it's worth. A local radio Chinese specialist doctor made the statement that the corn produced today vs corn tested 25 years ago that one of the universities tested. The nutrient value today of the corn took 30 bushels of GMO corn today to equal one bushel of non GMO corn from 25 years ago. If that doesn't scare you about GMO, then nothing will.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

"The nutrient value today of the corn took 30 bushels of GMO corn today to equal one bushel of non GMO corn from 25 years ago. If that doesn't scare you about GMO, then nothing will."

What's scary is taking that at face value as a fact.

What nutrients? What amounts?

This would make very little sense. Even if it was 2 times more than it is today, corn would be a super-food giving you 50-100+% of your daily requirement of 10+ nutrients. An unreal amount of health food stores would be growing/stocking heirloom corn varieties and making extracts from it.

30 times more would be practically poisonous for some of those nutrients, especially if you ate more than one serving of corn a day.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Here are some good studies -- at least from the descriptions there seem to be some well designed ones -- that show some higher nutrient levels in organic foods, and the specific nutrients are named.

Some of the studies also demonstrate the higher levels of harmful pesticides in conventional foods, such as the study that measured the levels in the urine of children from two groups, one eating conventional and one eating organic.

And the value of organic methods for soil microbiology and carbon sequestration and the like is also mentioned in some studies.

I would like to note that the "source" for information in the posts by TMG1 on this thread is primarily a propaganda pamphlet paid for and produced by big AG (it's a circuitous route, which was described to him last year when he was last here touting these fictional "facts" but he didn't believe that his source was inherently flawed, and so he's come back armed with misinformation again.) If anyone really wants to know the route and how the pamphlet came to be sold on Amazon, I can lay it all out again.

Here is a link that might be useful: nutritional values, pesticide levels, value to soil in organic foods


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Thanks elisa_Z5 . I have done quite a bit of research myself on the issue and pretty much came to the same conclusions which you can probably see in my arguments. I actually did a research project on GMO's. I actually want to try some small scale experiments on my own now about all of this. And you are right about themastergardener, pretty much all their "research" is monsanto propaganda, I picked up on it pretty quick, especially since I did my own research. I'm ignoring them now because they simply keep trying to come back at me with big ag propaganda... I also looked at your link btw


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

I imagine that foods grown on truly healthy soil and harvested at the peak of maturity, stored properly, and prepared healthily would be more nutrient dense than foods raised to produce the maximum yield. That said, I think that producing all the food organically would not be possible...unless we went to a lettuce diet or thereabouts.

Upon reading quite a bit from older gardening books, it was frightening to see the amount of lead arsenate used for insect control and this was from a day of using a lot of manure. Even though things were more organic, there were crop failures and bad bugs no less.

My point is that two schools have pretty well lined up here..Yes we can and No, we can't. I think that the truth for our present economy is somewhere inbetween


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

The issue people tend to forget that I worry about is long term sustainability. A lot of synthetic fertilizers are made from bi-products in the petroleum industry, which isn't an industry we should rely on heavily. With pesticides and herbicides there's an issue with bugs and weeds becoming resistant. This is something that has been already occurring for years. And once they become resistant you got to use a higher concentration which isn't safe. Another thing I don't like is Monsanto's terminating seeds. If Monsanto becomes a monopoly in the seed industry and some thing were to happen to Monsanto, what would we do?

And I know there are flaws with sustainability with some organic methods, but I feel overall it's more sustainable and we can't steer completely away from it.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

  • Posted by pt03 2b Southern Manitob (My Page) on
    Wed, Jan 1, 14 at 22:20

"And once they become resistant you got to use a higher concentration which isn't safe"

This is not always true. As an example, there are some wild oats that are resistant to some herbicides. With proper management techniques, the problem can often be controlled without increasing herbicides. It may also possible to achieve a high rate of control without any herbicide application.

Lloyd

Here is a link that might be useful: A Five-Step Strategy To Decrease Wild Oats


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

Lloyd, It seems, like the poor, we always have had weeds. I suppose that they do some good by deep rooting and making organic matter. Still, it might help if some would quit sowing so many 'wild oats'.


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RE: Is organic produce is starting to increase in demand?

A most interesting thread, especially demonstrations of propaganda from the ever present MG persona. MG popped up over at HT complaining about h/is treatment here and started posting the same horse puckey there with the added insult of editing out most of what was the meat of the posts. We didn't appreciate the unwillingness of this person to post links in support of the insufferable BS being advanced.


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