Don't know, but how were the beds prepared?

We generally have heavy clay, which requires heavy work to prepare mixed perennial beds. I prepare the beds down 12 inches and upgrade the broken up clay, especially with organic material.

But if I hadn't also pick-axed the clay on the bottom, the beds would act like sumps.

never heard of shampoo'ing my beds ... good luck with that.. lol ..

i did try using such to restretch dryer shrunken cotton clothes.. and it worked ...

so basically... someone is suggesting that the 'poo will cause the molecular bonds of the clay to break down .... so as to make it softer????

there is so much wrong with that sentence... lol ...

give it a try.. what do you have to lose ... i would use dollar store stuff.. and mark off a small area.. and give it a go ... i would avoid the plants ....

ken

I finally hauled in a load of coarse sand for a clay spot. After years of amending, it did the trick, was cheap & took a single day to dig in. Instant change from Chicken s--t to Chicken soup & mounded the area up real nice. Sounds like you might need to dig deeper as well. I never heard of Baby shampoo but it sounds, well, ridiculous. Sand would be cheaper. Some people say sand is a bad idea. It worked like a charm here.

open link in new window by right clicking.. for background music ...

ok.. it took a few hours.. but boy.. did you give me a flashback ... controlled substance free ... lol...

back in the late 60s early 70s ... a week at the cottage ... fishing.. boating.. burning bacon... auntie did straight 40s military bedding.... there was so much starch in those sheets i dont think i even left a dent in them... lol.. anyway ...

to facilitate fishing.... we used soapy water poured on the flower beds ... to make the worms rocket out of their holes ... skin irritant and all ....

soooo.... if you try it.. watch for them.. rinse them off.. and put them elsewhere in the garden ...

yet it seems.... that you are going to impact natures soil softeners ... worms ..... by flooding your area ... with soil softeners.... whats that all about?????

hmmmmm...

thx for the memory ...

ken

Ken, really, the shampooing de-shrunk your cotton clothes???? I need to try that for my wool pants that were shrunken after being washed even before drying (the label says laundering normally but air dry without heat)

Chueh, your question pushed me to do a bit of reading.

I do know some Chemistry, including what surfactants (as in baby shampoo) are.

Quick read: sounds like one part of the research comes from folk interested in cleaning up toxic spill.

Also, I read that gulf courses use surfactants with the intent of aerating soil and/or enhancing the soil's absorption of minerals and fertilizers.

Then I reached Gardenweb and "Liquid soil conditioner".

As i initially said, I know nothing (now, a little) of this.

If the question is about use for perennials compared to use for lawns, I'd note that perennial roots typically go down deeper than the roots of lawn grass. Many perennials, especially those which are longer lived, have quite deep tap roots.

Also: the question presumably goes beyond just the effect on the soil to the effect on the plants themselves.

Don't know but would be interested to hear something about it.

This post was edited by SunnyBorders on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 18:09

yeah.. go figure... forgot i had a link.. see below.. but like i said.. all cotton... but you can research wool ..

apparently ... baby shampoo includes a softener.. which acts as a detangler [or something like that] ... and if you soften your fabric.. you can pull it back into shape and size ...

i didnt use the towels ...

ken

ps: some other website suggested filling the tub.. and sitting in it with the jeans on.. lol.. i had to draw the line somewhere.. lol .. i was stretching out older cotton rugby shirts ...

Here is a link that might be useful: link

I have never heard of this, but I wouldn't do it because I'd be afraid of harming the soil life - not just the big boys (e.g. worms), but destroying insects, eggs, larvae the microbiota of the soil, etc. Also, you may end up impacting soil pH (which I imagine would depend on how much soap you use) which could have negative effects.

Point being: Baby shampoo may not harm humans, but it may may harm non-human lifeforms either directly or indirectly.

Ken, thanks for the link. Interesting!!!

Hm...mxk3...you got me thinking now; even the big guys did not cross my mind earlier. 6 or 7 years ago when I just first started to work on my yards with organic matters in the beds, I did not see as many worms as they are now. I would be afraid to lose them.

And SunnyBorder, good point about the grass root vs that of perennials....

A lot of research and thinking to do now.....

The correction for both clay soil and sand is organic material--lots and lots of it, year after year.

I agree with Lacey. Decide how deep you want your beds (in other words, how deep the deepest plant roots will most likely live) and then half that and add that much organic material/compost to it and till it in. Only way to go. So, 8" beds, add 4 inches to the top and till it in. The fastest way, the best results. Then, of course, top dress every year to keep improving.

Over the years there have been numerous discussions on the Organic Lawn Forum about this subject. Understanding what it's all about requires a knowledge of "non-ionic surfactants" which are widely used in everyday products, foods and horticultural sprays. Do a bit of researching to better understand surfactants. Interesting subject.

To directly answer the question asked, baby shampoo is a non-ionic surfactant. It can be used as a spray to "loosen" COMPACTED soils over a period of time. For easy application. fill the container of a hose end sprayer with baby shampoo, set the dial for 3 tablespoons per gallon. Apply directly to soils or lawn. Will not harm foliage, plants. Repeat treatment every six weeks if necessary during growing season. Start reading the labels on liquid fertilizers and similar products and note that many of them already include a surfactant.

HOWEVER...there is a difference between compacted soils and pure clay which must be heavily amended with mulches, compost, etc. to become friable. If the gardener is following this time honored method then also using surfactant applications will help.

FYI: Many years ago I began using just one surfactant application to older properties with 'tired', compacted soils in the late fall. Significant improvement noted of lawn and garden soils in the spring.

I agree with the above - while baby shampoo may be helpful in aiding surface compaction (I'm not sure the jury is fully in on that), it will do nothing to lighten a heavy clay soil. As noted, the solution to that is the repeated addition of organic matter over time and the activity of plant roots.

And applying/spraying the shampoo in amongst growing perennials or shrubs should be done with care, if that route chosen. Soaps, even insecticidal soaps, can have phytotoxic impacts on some plants.

Nandina, you say you have using a surfactant application on " --- older properties with "tired", compacted soils in the late fall ".

You then say "Significant improvement noted of lawn and garden soils in the spring".

To be honest, some of us have had experience of lawn maintenance companies making claims that they didn't keep and also of chemical companies pushing, on gardeners, chemicals , which may be unnecessary or undesirable.

So: what observations did you make that indicated significant improvement, specifically in the garden soils, in spring?

I looked this up last night. It doesn't sound like a viable solution for this situation.
Assuming its not pure clay, the best solution I found to get clay soil into any kind of decent shape quickly is to go to a place like Home Depot, buy some large bags of organic soil amendment (or even those large compressed packs of peat moss) and some coarse sand.

Clay+organic matter+sand makes a good loam.

The heavier the clay, the more you need to add. These will both help with roots, water absorption and drainage. Roots cannot get oxygen in heavy clay so the sand helps open the texture & prevents that baked-hard-as-concrete type dirt in summer & allows the water soak in deeply & adds good drainage.

Dig it in well to mix it at least a shovel deep. Water it, then in a few days, come back and turn it over again to break up the clay more. I really don't think there is a magic short cut to improving soil.

Keep adding organic to it, in the form of annual mulch which will break down each season, after some years the soil will be very good. Mixing in leaves or dried grass clippings annually is good too.

I wouldn't use baby shampoo on my baby, never mind my soil. Too many toxic chemicals for me!

:)
Dee

Continuing this discussion...those reluctant to use baby shampoo may substitute organic Simple Green, available in every grocery store. Following the directions I gave above you will not harm the birds, worms, children, pets, etc. Just do not expect any surfactant to work the miracle of turning solid clay into friable soil as Texas Ranger is explaining above.

Sunny Borders has requested more information on my remark about using a fall surfactant treatment on older properties with compacted lawns and garden soils. This is a common problem encountered by pros which can be handled in numerous ways. Sort of depends on the pro's philosophy and training. Often noted will be low sections of lawn that perk slowly after a rain, garden beds that are just 'played out'. I am encouraging the trial of a late fall surfactant treatment along with whatever else is deemed necessary to restore the soil. I find that after such a treatment the soil in the spring will have a different, loose texture and drainage is improved. My experience with all this goes back to the late 1970's. I have used surfactant treatments in many situations including on soils that have been heavily panned at construction sites and on compacted golf course greens. I prefer to use a surfactant named Nitron A-35 (available online) or one of the humic acid preparations if it is best for the situation.

I appreciate your reply, Nandina.

I am gathering that, as a result of surfactant treatment, you've witnessed a change (loosening) of soil texture and an improvement in drainage, and this can be part of intervention which will "restore the soil".

These claims would obviously have more support if they were backed up by controlled experimentation.

Nevertheless, as a perennial gardener (starting with clay), and as a number of fellow perennial gardeners said above, I would be quite nervous about the possible effects of the surfactant treatment on valuable soil organisms and on the plants themselves.

This post was edited by SunnyBorders on Wed, Mar 26, 14 at 20:15