so you already know the answer ... MULCH ...

but you are asking us to favor chemical intervention ...

i vote for exercise and mulch..

rather than the easy way out ...

ken

Sorry, is this an organic forum? I didn't realize.

Mulch is good, and so is exercise, but some of us just don't have the hours. Wish I did.

you asked what i think.. and then you get touchy about my opinion.. whats that all about????

preen when applied.. creates a chemical barrier that disallows germination ...

anything that breaks the barrier.. such as walking thru the garden.. pets.. etc.. reduces the effectiveness of the product ...

i see no reason how it could be selective in its ability to differentiate between what you want to seed.. and what you dont want ...

if you have any need for certain plants ... to reseed .. then you would not use this type of product in that area ...

but that wouldnt mean you couldnt use it in other beds ...

read the instructions.. and use it accordingly ...

preen is a brand name.. and there are generics available in bulk.. if you look hard enough ...

regardless ... i still favor mulch ... lol ..

good luck

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: found this by googling snapshot weed prevention

Oh my gosh, no! There wasn't any snark or sarcasm in my reply; I read your answer and I thought that I'd asked an inappropriate question for the forum. That happens, and the only correct response is to apologize, which I did. That's all!

And I really do wish I had the hours that it would take to do it all by hand.

Thanks for your response. And for the record, I like mulch too.

vjrnts says: "I have a moderate-sized perennial garden" and then goes on to say "I really do wish I had the hours that it would take to do it all by hand."

What this tells me is that vjrnts's garden has gotten too big to handle, if weeds are a problem in spite of adequate mulch and good cultural practices.

Even though Preen is supposedly relatively safe, it's still a pre-emergent herbicide with reported negative effects on amphibians and other potential environmental effects that may not be fully appreciated given the short time it's been on the market. It represents an added expense while not feeding the soil like mulch, and will keep desirable perennials from reseeding.

This past weekend I was delighted to find a bunch of self-sown Hellebores in my front yard perennial bed. If I'd used Preen I wouldn't have them or the other valuable perennial seedlings I commonly make use of.

If you use the forum search function you'll find other discussions of pre-emergent herbicide use in home gardens.

To answer your question... Preen will not harm your existing perennial plants or prevent them from growing. Certain perennial plants will drop seeds that often develop into new plants the following growing season. Some annuals will do the same thing. Preen will prevent these self sown seeds from germinating. I use mulch and Preen and still manage to get my share of weeds each season.

My forget-me-nots are biennials and my poppies and Verbena bonariensis are annuals would not exist if I put down Preen. Likewise, many of my shorter-lived perennials, like lupine (much loved by the voles each winter) and columbine wouldn't reseed with Preen. Also, Preen is only a pre-emergent, and so won't touch your already existing weeds just as it won't harm your already existing perennials.

I have found that if I mulch well enough, I don't have problems with weeds. I put down a layer of corrugated cardboard followed by a thick layer of relatively fine mulch and have very few weeds come up (and I almost never have to water.) My beds include lots of old manure from a pile that grows a magnificent stand of weeds each year, so it's not a lack of viable seeds. ;>)
I do have to renew the mulch about every 3 years or so and whenever I plant something I put down mulch over layered newspaper which is easier to get around a plant. Last summer due to job travel, I ended up away from home for 7 weeks of my 3 1/2 month frost-free season. My limited garden time was mostly spent weeding my veggie garden which is not as well mulched so that the soil warms better. I probably spent 1/2 hour all season on my perennial beds to keep them weed-free, so the mulch definitely makes the difference in my garden.

There is an organic form of Preen.

I don't use Preen because I'm constantly moving plants or planting new ones and my mulch is never undisturbed so it would be a waste of time and money for me.

Thanks, nhbabs and buyorsell888! nhbabs, I'm intruigued by your corrugated cardboard in your garden; I have started new beds this way, but never used it in as established bed. I have forget-me-nots ALL OVER THE PLACE right now, so putting down cardboard between them would be, literally, working with pieces of a square centimeter or so, so that's not going to work, but after forget-me-not season is over... how do you manage to put down cardboard in an established bed? My plants are just kind of randomly dug in, where ever there seemed to be space for them. I can't imagine cutting pieces of cardboard to fit. How do you do it?

You could always try newspaper instead of cardboard. That's what I do in my established beds - it's easier to rip and/or fold the sections of newspaper and stick them in between established plants than to cut and place cardboard, IMO. Then I water it down and place the mulch on top.

Dee

buy or sell triggered the old grey matter ...

corn glutten .. is an organic version... check out the link ...

and is probably 50 pounds for 10 bucks at the feed store ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Why are people so snarky on these forums, this one in particular? I've noticed an increase in know it all bossy attitudes. Please people - be nice to each other. Gardening is a forum to share knowledge - not shove it down other people's throats. I've lost my desire to post or read these things anymore. That being said, I still visit from time to time because I do learn things. The simple answer is you will prevent perennial volunteers from reseeding. My friend loves black-eyed susans and I gave her batch 2 years ago and none reseeded last year which I thought was very odd as they're hard to get rid of. Come to find out she hates weeding and spread Preen around. So Preen does prevent weeds, but also wanted seedlings as well. I advised her to skip the Preen where she wants plants.

I came to GW today to also find out about Preen and I thank those above for their CONSTRUCTIVE and, therefore, helpful, comments. And I wholeheartedly agree with nancyd re the bit(hy responses. I think it reflects so poorly on the "advice" giver. Are you interested in helping and do you have good info to share, or are you just some miserable curmudgeon hiding behind your computer screen?

First of all, I would like to apologize for Ken being an ass! You came to this forum for advice not to be lectured like a four yr old.

Now about preen. I would not recommend Preen in any bed containing perennials that reseed themselves. I have a nice batch of black eyed Suzies that I know reseed themselves each yr. When an area of my beds start to get overgrown that is when I start to use Preen in that area. Knowing full well next yr only my existing perennials will re-sprout and no new plants will emerge.

As for the dangers of Preen. I have used the product for about 10 years. I have two children, two dogs and plenty of wild rabbits all over my property and none have become ill (obviously, I can not vouch for all the wild rabbits) from any of my organic or inorganic gardening materials.

Good luck and enjoy your beds!
Danny

Ha ha! Thanks Danny. I've moved on from Preen, and now I'm stressing over putting mulch on my garden before all of the plants have poked their noses up. It takes forever for my mallow, my balloon flowers, and my speedwell to show up, and I'm afraid I'll smother them if I mulch them now. So instead I'm dumping compost on them.

I think too many people are over sensitive. I think of the forums as a conversation not as a classroom where one only gets the answer to a question without the comments individuals make from their experiences and according to their personalities. All of these make for a more interesting interaction. That said, I see nothing wrong with Ken's postings.

Preen, I've occasionally considered using it but for all the above reasons I do not. Shredded leaves are my preferred mulch because leaves are plentiful for me. After the first year it is simply a mater of adding to the mulch as needed. There are still a few weeds here and there in unmulched areas which I pull whenever I see them as I am taking my stroll amongst the flower beds and doing deadheading.

I find some of this bordering on offensive. I am 80 years old and have multiple large flower beds that I love and intend to continue to tend. But, and this is a big but, I have to use preen because there is no way that I can physically weed as I could have 30 years ago when they were built. They are mulched and many of them have cloth down but birds and lawnmowers throw seeds into the mulch which germinate and grow if preen isn't down.

hi marlene.. ignore the idiots ... its hard .. but it can be done ... just like in life in general ...

focus on the peeps who offer free knowledge ... and dont judge them for how they work there own garden ...

we have slews of eco warriors ... who dont seem to think.. that other people are allowed to do things that they dont approve of ... who cares ...

at 80.. i would think you are long past caring about what other think ... lol ... my mom is .... in my book.. whatever makes you happy.. is good enough for me ... short of breaking the law .... lol

ken

vjrnts, I've used the Scott's mulch that includes Preen just along the edges of my garden to discourage the weed and grass growth. My lawn person can't get the hang of which way he has to mow along them to prevent throwing grass over in amongst the flowers, even tho I've asked and showed him enough times! However, the Preen seems to lose its effectiveness quickly, since I have Cleomes that reseeded and sprouted up the next summer in spite of the mulch with the Preen!

This Spring I bought 30 bags of 'cheap mulch' (no Preen) at the big box store and had it stacked on a pallet to use throughout the summer. Imagine my surprise when termites either moved into the bags, (or were already in the bags) when we went to spread some of what was at the bottom of the pile! We immediately called an exterminator to treat around the foundation of the house (they hadn't gotten inside the walls or crawlspace yet, thank goodness!), but I sure learned a valuable lesson. I think we're going back to buying 'bulk mulch', keeping the pile way away from the house. It's more labor intensive, but to avoid the termites it is worth it. Just a word of caution if you are where it's warm enough for these pests to thrive. Oh, for a good old fashioned cold western NY winter to wipe out the bugs!

A couple of reassuring articles about mulch and termites:

http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2001/5-4-2001/mulch.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in651

Interesting articles, Rusty. Thanks! I think we had a 'double whammy'---termites in the mulch and ones already here. Having watched an Exterminator come to our neighbor's place for the past 6 years, and given that this house had already been treated at the perimeter over 10 years ago, they had to be in the area. It will be interesting to see how long the wooden fence lasts that they had installed a couple of years ago, since it's not made of any pressure treated boards and sits right on the ground. I haven't seen their exterminator over there in a long time, so all we can do is keep our yard protected and keep everything away from the house.

Good news is that this is an all brick house from the cement foundation all the way to the roof. Less to worry about!

I whole-heartedly recommend using Preen. A very small amount is effective and often you don't even need to reapply it! My lot is 80% garden and 20% lawn. I use no chemicals other then Preen, totally organic-- even the lawn food-- but I just had to make the exception for Preen.

Yes, there are quite a number of perennials which reseed themselves, and as you observe your garden you'll figure out which ones these are. Foxgloves, hellebores, violets, Johnny Jump Up, melampodium (little yellow daisies), blanket flower (gaillardia), orange butterfly weed, and some coneflowers come to mind. So you sure asked the right question!

You can just skip the areas immediately around these so they can reseed. That still leaves areas around the shrubs, azaleas, roses, ferns and other perennials; only treat the areas where there's a problem.

I find edges of beds are the most important area to treat. Any area of the bed that borders on the lawn can easily be invaded if you have an organic lawn with lots of little "wildflowers" (e.g., weeds!). I rake back the mulch around those edges, apply Preen to the bare soil, water it in and replace the mulch.

I could not garden at my age (70) without Preen. It saves so much time at home that I have time to maintain a huge organic rose garden at the zoo, PLUS two smaller rose gardens --one antique and one modern-- at the arboretum.

Corn gluten is great for small patches of lawn or the vegetable garden where you don't want any chemicals but it does not remain effective very long. You really need 50# of the stuff; it is a component of livestock feed so you have to go to a feed store to get it. A side benefit of corn gluten is that it has a high nitrogen content and so it feeds the plants. I used it on my organic lawn back in Texas and it worked great. (It would work here too I just can't lift the bags anymore!)

Bless you Babs for bringing up cardboard; that would work equally well with edges and the mulch will hide it. Lasts longer than newspaper and breaks down completely except for the scotch tape. I like to use cardboard under paths and between rows in the vegetable garden.

i have used newspaper under my mulch, but I wet it down first. I start with 10 days worth of papers and set them in a bucket of (warm seems to work faster) water, slosh them around loosely, then turn the bunch of a papers upside down and do the dry ends. Once the water seeps to the middle of the papers, I dump the remaining water. Then it's real easy to grap a section A and tear a semi circle out of one side and set it down under the new ninebark cover with a couple inches of bark, repeat on the other side. It's not lightweight like dry newspaper and it forms to the surface of the dirt right away. Cover with a couple inches of mulch. Works for me. And I should try the Preen, the birds carry off birdseed and it sprouts in any little uncovered dirt!

I am newly semi retired and also new to flower and vegetable gardening. I appreciate the great info here. i did not have time or the desire to plant flowers in the past, only had a couple nice flowerpots for the front porch, but I really enjoyed my first season of gardening this year, and spent a small fortune on spring bulbs, roses, perennials, and recently fall minimums. hoping they would cone back each year. i knew zero about gardening and happened to see preen and it caught my eye, of course i spread it after planting because no matterhow much time you have who wants yo spend it all pulling weeds. so i have had no weeds but now reading these forums i got worried wondering if my garden flower-bud-loves will come back next year. i dont recall their names, other than day lily, pink lilly, echinacea, a pretty purple flower i think was called an alfred, a taller wispy plant with thin pointy purple tiny flower stalks and some mini mums.

i was intrigued by the cardboard and newspaper comments. do you think a papershredder would be helpful for the newspaper? if so would you just lay dry shredded newspaper between the plants and bare spots then immediately water it so it settles in?

i dont personally like mulch, looks great when fresh though and i reluctantly have it in the front & refresh it annually but it gets weeds underneath which is annoying. this sounds like a fumb question but if you use newspaper do you put it over old mulch then fresh much over that? also i was wondering if you use mulch in an organic flower garden maybe you can spread some organic insect preventer in it like neem? i also saw Diatomaceous Earth products are natural. has anyonetried those? one of my roses recently developed black spots & yellow leaves dropping so i found & am trying that. I would love to see some pics of everyone’s gardens.