I refuse to purchase any more echinacea due to disease and pest issues.

Nope. Not buying anymore.

The only one that has survived for at least 3 years now is Milkshake. It is a nice one.

Kevin

I stick to the native echenaceas. My hybrid died on me and I only tried it once. Then I got tired of seeing the hybrids everywhere in catalogs but I don't see them in many gardens around here. I find that to be a good clue about the issue.

Fatal Attraction and Merlot are both doing well after numerous years.

I'm sad to hear about everyone's loses! I had no idea the hybrids did so poorly as perennials. I purchased 2 pow wows from menards a week ago - hope they make it but it sounds like the odds are not in my favor.

Wow, I'm surprised your White Swan died -- she's an old tried and true classic.

wantanamara, do you have E. angustifolia (Narrowleaf Coneflower) by any chance? I read its a better choice for xeric, I like the narrow leaves + its shorter. Bustani's has it but I didn't make the 50 mile drive this year. I planted Giant Coneflower from seed Fall 2012, actually its a rudbeckia thats called coneflower so it doesn't count but one has put up a very tall stem about 5ft tall and its just opening, the leaves are cabbage-like. SE Oklahoma is its southern most limit, its also native in Texas. It made it.

mmmm, a lot of us have been down that road - I have certainly spent my fair share on them, never to see them again. A nursery grower I know told me that she gave up growing and selling them because they were just too miffy.....and the Cambridge University gardens no longer bother propagating them either (the open plant sales were always one of Cambridge gardeners unmissable events).Sticking with reliable purpurea 'Magnus'

Need to differentiate the "hybrids" that are seed strains and those that originate from tissue culture. I have had very few problems with the seed strains (PowWow, Cheyenne Spirit, etc). I only buy beefy, well branched (from the crown) tissue culture varieties. Results are generally acceptable.

I absolutely gambled AND splurged on the new Echinaceas last summer. And I think all have lived! This is really amazing to me because I have not been able to overwinter the ordinary Echinacea purpurea after trying them for several years. I very nearly prayed over them this winter, which was excessively dry in droughty California. So I did water occasionally.

My one Red Salsa has doubled in size and has been blooming for three weeks already. My several plants of Hot Summer are blooming away as of last week. Red Papaya is blooming as of this week. I have four of Wild Berry and they are just beginning to bloom.

My three Flamethrowers are still a long way from blooming but they are definitely alive; but compared to the others, they are disappointing.

So over all I'm thrilled with my luck. I really love these plants!

But why did they succeed when I've had repeated failure in the past? In the past I had purchased small six pack plants of Echinacea purpurea. These never over wintered successfully. But it in the case of the new Echinaceas, all were purchased as one gallon plants and all were quite robust in size and multi-stemmed in their containers. Perhaps that made the difference, but I really don't have any other explanation for my good luck.

I'm so glad to read something good about 'milkshake'! Hmmm ... unless I've got 'meringue'?
I used to to absolutely adore 'Hot Papaya' & only reason it died, was because it was potted & died from drought, during summer & didn't get watered.
I know I have 'Kim's Red Knee High" & just wouldn't feel right, without it. Survived 70 ,mph winds while in full bloom, last summer.
Pow-wows wildberry, in both colors & besides they were on sale for only $1 each. But I did notice the white one that didn't survive winter, had that synthetic little (polyester?) spool sized wrapper still around its little dessicated roots. I guess if it can't destroy that plastic & was grown in it & outgow it, & or was never removed, it may be just what does them in. I've even seen it happen to Delphiniums, in that remay (sp?) or whatever that thin polyester cloth wrap is, around their roots.
Once I carefully peeled it off from some pelargoniums roots I had mail ordered this spring, oh boy did they ever take off, in growth, shortly after that nasty stuff they use (to keep the plants easier to separate from each other in the growing trays?) wasn't there to interfere with their root growth, anymore...

I've had White Swan for three years now. It's been fine and the clumps are all much bigger. I started with gallon plants, so that may have helped. I was thrilled to spot a seedling this spring, the first one.

A few others that I tried, fancy new hybrids, didn't make it at all.

I love White Swann, i may have a little left, but most seemed to turn purple on me.
My favorite was Summer Sky.
My Meringue and Harvest Moon do really well for me. Will post pics. in a few weeks.

I was at Lowes yesterday and they did not even have any for sale. That is strange because the last few yrs. they always had some.

I did hear somewhere that "they" were trying to breed a better strain that is less finicky...so far I have not heard of it but it may be out there.

I never really tried them, although I've been sorely tempted, because of the disappointments I've read about. Some of the varieties are gorgeous, but I've shown what I think is admirable restraint, lol.

Actually, wait, I confess.... I do think I succumbed to temptation once. I have... hmm, what is it? Fatal Attraction? It has overwintered and come back for me for about three years (including this one), but the first two years it was not too vigorous. I will say it is in a rather neglected bed, but hoping to pay more attention this year and will be interested to see how it does in it's third full season.

I'm surprised to see White Swan put in this category. I was under the impression it was an older, more reliable variety. I grew mine from seed several years ago, before the new variety "craze", and they are very hardy, healthy, and prolific in my garden (a little too prolific for this gardener who hates to weed even one little seedling!).

Too bad they don't sell some of the beautiful orange and yellow varieties for a cheaper price as annuals. I'd definitely pay an "annual" price for these beauties. These are the ones that I love so much but haven't bought.

Dee
P.S. Just made the mistake of googling Fatal Attraction and found a site that has all the beautiful varieties... and of course I looked at them all..

Eventually, people will get tired of replacing expensive perennials, that act as annuals. Then, the suppliers will stop producing & selling what amounts to be rather expensive annuals...As not everyone can afford to do that, especially these days.

They will come up with new ones & find out if there is a market for them, If the market will not support this, they again will go back to produce something new, that is attractive & see if it goes well & sells.

That's why there are names like 'Proven Winners' & such. Sounds like a good marketing ploy, to me.....But, many mail order companies & some nurseries offer a one year guarantee & if those 'supposed' perennials don't live, then they don't want to continue losing money, by having to replace them, either.

Its if the consumer who can afford it, who wants to continue attempting to grow something attractive & willing to buy it over & over, that keeps some on the market. The Echinacea debate, has been going on for some years now. & besides, I think you can even buy them 'grab bag' style now, if you like. Many may be discards, out of the thousands grown annually, in search of a select few, to end up on the market, as a 'series'.

I know its actually quite similar to rose growers. They may plant thousands of seed crosses per year & cull all the rest, only to reproduce a select number, to put to the test, go into production & market the half dozen chosen ones. Just the way it works, in the economics of it all.

I'm sure it can be rather disappointing, but the hybridization of Echinacea is rather fairly newer, by comparison to some of the other much older, but tried & true perennials that have withstood the test of time.

The other problem may just be, where these hybrids originate from; Holland, for many of them... Do you think, with as broad of a climate range, found all across North America, can be similar to the limited one there (& some helped along in greenhouse & likely with tissue culture. ) that those conditions can be repeated all across our country? Seriously, I doubt it....
I think some people that thought they were fantastic to look at, (as I do) but found out otherwise, that they just don't do well at all, in their conditions, no matter how hard they tried.
It was debated here in this forum, almost (dare I say, always?) every spring, about what survived where & if it was worth the work, efforts & expense to replace or try newer ones & down to complaints about not living up to expectations of appearing anything resembling those shown in the catalog photos ( pink poodle, double decker, etc, are just a few examples, if I recall correctly...)

Then, I think some just gave up entirely, after unusual winters, too much rainfall, & the list goes on. In other words, do you want to make the effort, to babysit these, or was it even worth it?

It is too bad because the original plant is a tough as nails plant. and that that characteristic has been culled out of many variations.

i also find that too bad. echinacea could easily be one of my favorite garden plants! i have a purple one that keeps showing up in different spots in the garden. been there so long i don't remember which strain it is---could be magnus.

I keep to the E. augustifolia because it is tougher than E. purport Or however you spell it. E tenneseenses (?). That name makes me dizzy.

While I did lose a few perennials over the winter, all of my Echies are back. Even ones that I over-wintered in the veggie garden returned. These I just got in early fall or had them in a pot and needed to over-winter them in the ground.

All are here and accounted for:
Sunrise
Harvest Moon
Summer Sky
White Swan
Tiki Torch
Paradoxa
Sundown
Milkshake
Pink Double Delight
Green Envy
Pow Pow Wildberry - Pink

I would think that the new seed propagated varieties would be easier to keep going - the Pow Wows and Cheyenne Spirit come to mind. I see that Burpee is selling a seed mix called Warm Summer that has multiple colors. Anyone try any of these from seed?

Linda

I have ruby star, which I don't know that I consider a "designer" echinacea, and its doing very well. I've been very tempted by some of the newer ones (especially Tiki Torch) but because of comments I've read here I've not acted on my temptations. I did get some cheyenne spirit seeds as "extras" in a trade and they did germinate, though I'm expecting them to either not make it or not come true to form. I think it will be a while before people stop producing less than hardy/reliable varieties. The last few years I've gone to the MSU plant sale I hear people lamenting that they "missed out on the NEW echinaceas this year!"

I tried three of the new cultivars, probably 7 years ago. Two were the Sky series and I forget what the other was. I didn't spend a lot of money, I waited for an end of season sale and when those three did not perform, out they came and I didn't buy another one. I was reading thread after thread from gardeners who were unhappy with them and that was the end of that.

For orange, there are perfectly good heleniums.....since the newer echinaceas ended up as essentially annuals, I cut my losses and plant tithonias, ursinias and lychnis......or dahlias

I bought about 4-5 hybrids........can't even remember the names but yes, they all died! So now I'm just sticking with old faithfuls.

I purchased a couple hybrids years ago, and the 'Sunrise' died but 2 out of 3 Summer Sky are still alive. Ironically, since I don't really care for its orangey color that fades out quickly...

The E. purpurea cultivars have all been pretty dependable performers, when not attacked by voles, earwigs, or the sunflower worm. I started with the regular purple and 'White Swan'. For the past 3 years I've started some varieties from seed, which is easy and inexpensive, and they are coming along pretty well. This includes Pow wow wild berry, Primadonna White, Bravado, Prairie Sunrise, Magnus Superior, and Baby Swan (might have lost 1 or 2?).

Last fall I purchased about 2 dozen 'Cheyenne Spirit' seedlings that were 50% off at a local farm, about $1.50 each. Yes I could have started them from seed myself cheaper, but I hadn't ordered that seed. I think they all made it through the winter, and I assume most will bloom a little this year. Can't wait to see what they look like - this cultivar is supposed to have a huge variety in bloom colors!

Hmm, actually, just before I opened this thread, I was thinking how my two of my heleniums did not come back this year....

Dee

It is depressing to read about all the failures, especially with such EXPENSIVE plants. I bought perhaps 12 plants last year, all in one gallon containers, but they were between $12 and $16 each. Normal price in my area for one gallon perennials is $6-$8, so at double the normal price you DEFINITELY want them to act like perennials!

The thing is, though, they are so darn beautiful! And they bloom for three months or more. How many perennials do that? Someone suggested Heleniums as a substitute, and I do like Heleniums, though they are pretty much limited to orange tones and they bloom for much shorter periods.

I suppose a good substitute might be annual zinnias; there is incredible variety there and they do bloom all summer to frost.

Still, those new Echinaceas are seductively appealing and, for me at least, impossible to resist.

I'll have to hope they make it through a second winter for me. Meanwhile, I've just bought a couple more Hot Papayas. One gallon size, $16 painful dollars from my local nursery, but they are each blooming already and I can count up to 20 buds coming along on each of the new plants.

I am also trying out E. Paradoxa and E. Tennesseensis. Three little plants of the former and one of the latter from High Country Gardens. Can't wait to see what their blooms look like and how long they will bloom and whether they will overwinter for me. I do like long bloom seasons in my perennials.

Speaking of lengthy bloom periods, I have whittled down the perennials that I grow to three that bloom most of the summer into frost. Penstemons and Agastaches (and grasses), along with a generous number of Echinaceas make up most of my perennial bed. Roses and Panicum Heavy Metal form the backdrop.

'Pow Wow Wildberry' - DEAD!!
(I'm in zone 6b)

For most of the hybrid fancy types I have been able to overwinter them here in southern ohio. The main points in regards to care from the breeder recommendations and from my own slightly obsessed experience with echinacea is. ...
- get really good drainage. Since many have the echinacea paradoxa crossed in to get the fun colors, they need more drainage then purpurea types. Wet winters in heavy clay soil will do them in. I have a sod on top of fill dirt yard...so I ended up double digging my echinacea beds to get good drainage.
- plants purchased late in the season headed into fall have less of a chance to overwinter well.
- if you purchase small quart plants, many times the plants aren't too far from the plug stage.... So if it starts sending up blooms.... You should ( as the breeders suggest but the nurserymen don't necessarily follow) really remove the buds so the plant puts more energy into growth and bulking up that year
- do not buy any echinacea that have only a single (or even two) stalks shooting out of the pot without much other basal leaf growth. The crown should be a nice cluster of growth points. Even if that stalk is 2 feet tall and has blooms all over it..... They just won't winter over if the don't have much basal growth.
- the non hybrid echinacea are great additions to the garden too... So try out paradoxa ( yellow relaxed blooms that bloom out early before the purpurea types) or pallida ( large relaxed purple blooms which also bloom a bit earlier). You can grow either from seed too.

I have read so much about lack of success with the new Echinaceas, I'm optimistically hoping that some of us have had success with the new Echinaceas. I would very much like to find out if some of them can be relied upon because I am quite taken with them and would like more.

Please, please, do chime in with your list of Echinaceas that have over wintered for you.

As for me, I have had great luck so far with Hot Summer and Salsa Red and they are heavily blooming now in my garden, and have been since mid May. They look fabulous with tons of blooms and more coming.

I have four plants of Pow Wow Wild Berry and they are growing well and will soon be in bloom.

It's too soon to tell about two plants of Hot Papaya and one plant of Guava Ice and three plants of Flame Thrower - which all over wintered, but they are still much shorter than those mentioned above, and apparently will need considerably more time before coming into bloom.

I should add that all the Echinaceas were purchased in one gallon containers and were already robust plants with lots of growing stems. Previously, I had had no success in overwintering Echinacea purpurea when planted out from six pack size, so I have a feeling that planting well started plants is important.

I have read so much about lack of success with the new Echinaceas, I'm optimistically hoping that some of us have had success with the new Echinaceas. I would very much like to find out if some of them can be relied upon because I am quite taken with them and would like more.

Please, please, do chime in with your list of Echinaceas that have over wintered for you.

As for me, I have had great luck so far with Hot Summer and Salsa Red and they are heavily blooming now in my garden, and have been since mid May. They look fabulous with tons of blooms and more coming.

I have four plants of Pow Wow Wild Berry and they are growing well and will soon be in bloom.

It's too soon to tell about two plants of Hot Papaya and one plant of Guava Ice and three plants of Flame Thrower - which all over wintered, but they are still much shorter than those mentioned above, and apparently will need considerably more time before coming into bloom.

I should add that all the Echinaceas were purchased in one gallon containers and were already robust plants with lots of growing stems. Preciously, I had had no success in overwintering Echinacea purpurea when planted out from six pack size.

I have White Swan and Magnus that have been doing well for years -- those are old ironhorses as far as I'm concerned.

In terms of newer cultivars:

* Virgin: Bought two of these on clearance last fall, were decent in size when I planted them and over-wintered just fine.

* Pow Wow White: No problems at all.

* Pink Poodle: This is my fourth year (I think) with this one. The one I have actually does look like it's supposed to -- fully formed pink double. I almost lost it last summer, it was withering away for no apparent reason, couldn't figure out why until it dawned on me -- the neighbors *!&$^#!!** cats were probably p*ssing on it! They like to hang out in that area between the houses. The poor thing managed to make it through the winter, and I think the large amount of snow melt and spring rain helped it in terms of washing away the cat p*ss and "rinsing" the soil. Anyway, it's doing quite well this year. I sprinked some really stinky Get Off My Garden around it to keep the beasts away. I really love this cultivar and look forward to the blooms, and I only have one plant of it. &^!*@&$^# cats

My pink poodle withered away also, was growing great for 2 yrs., then last yr. it started out great, then just slowly died off. It was a real looker, it looked like it was supposed to.
Tomato Soup did not last long at all, maybe 2 yrs., now completely gone!
Also had a real nice Tiki Torch, only lasted 1 yr.

I bought this Hot Coral from Lowes last year. So far so good.

Spent a lot of money on the "sky and moon" series and they never made it through the winter. I stopped buying them. The past two years, I've purchased Cheyenne Spirit seeds and they made it through the very severe winter we had last year AND are absolutely gorgeous- loaded with buds/flowers and very vivid colors! I couldn't be happier and will continue to grow them.

Cheyenne Spirit from seeds is great here. PowWow from seeds is awesome too. The Sombrero series from tissue culture is amazing. I have had them for several years now. They are tough and 'Salsa Red' is the best red ever. The Double Scoop series is good too.

I planted a raspberry truffle this year that I got from HD for $10. Have not overwintered yet, but I'll be interested to see if it survives based on the comments here lol.

Aloha overwintered well and has grown quite large.

I counted 56 blooms and buds on this plant, which is a Cheyenne Spirit I grew from seed.

Great looking plants you two have there!

I will chime in with a second vote - great looking plants/flowers!

I am completely smitten with mine. I counted over 52 flowers on Sombrero Salsa Red, which I purchased last year as a one gallon plant. It started blooming before mid-May and shows no signs of slowing down. I quickly acquired six more.

And last year's Hot Summer, Hot Papaya, Guava Ice, Powwow Wild Berry and Rubinstern are blooming their heads off for me.

I've added 8 or 9 plants of Cheyenne Spirit, 3 Cleopatra, 2 Aloha, 2 Burgundy Fireworks, 2 Fragrant Angels, 1 Double Scoop Orangeberry. And I couldn't resist trying E. Pallida, E. Paradoxa and E. Tennesseensis.

Wish me luck overwintering them all. My garden now depends upon them.

P.S. I am quite taken with Burgundy Fireworks, which is the final Echinacea introduction of breeder Jim Ault. Link supplied

Here is a link that might be useful: Jim Ault's Last Coneflower

Others have taken note of decreased reliability of new Echinacea hybrids.

In the last few years I've bought several hyped new hybrids on sale, only one of which remains (Milkshake, and not looking too vigorous). On the other hand, close to 100% of the Cheyenne Spirit I grew from seed survived our harsh winter and are among the best performers in my garden, along with a couple of other varieties raised from seed (Lustre hybrids and Meadow something).

So I'm enjoying Echinaceas, but will avoid investing in any pricey name hybrid plants for now.

Mixed colors from second-year "Cheyenne Spirit" plants in spring:

{{gwi:216517}}

And in early summer (the pink-flowered plant on the right is from another seed strain):

{{gwi:216519}}

This post was edited by eric_oh on Sat, Jul 19, 14 at 23:05

Hmmm . . . Should I buy the Pink Poodle and Passionfruit coneflower seeds in my Etsy cart??? I've read every word here . . . looks like Cheyenne Spirit is a winner, maybe I should just stick to that and wait for the hybrids to be bred stronger??? Maybe amending the soil bunches would help . . . I am also in Ohio, as one of the other posters who had luck stated they were in OH.

IMO, you're better off sticking with straight E. purpurea and/or a couple of std selections. They're more vigorous.

Course I don't care for pink poodle pompoms either, or trees and shrubs tortured to look like an elephant.

This post was edited by dbarron on Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 10:28

Interesting comment, dbaron, about the pink poodle, elephant, etc. I tend to agree. I have to say that Hot Papaya and Guava Ice are now my least favorite Echinaceas. I was initially impressed, but now I find them just a little tiresome. Upon reflection I do prefer flowers that are more natural looking.

Though Salsa Red may be my favorite Echinacea, the young plants of it that I've added this year all look like they've been raised on steroids, sort of huddled looking, all flower, little plant, no grace. Fortunately, the plants seem to outgrow that state as I don't like that very ungraceful look. As above, to me, it's not very natural looking....

I've made quite a hefty $$$ investment in Echinaceas this year and I'm finding that the Cheyenne Spirit series is about equal to any number of fancy named and fancy priced Echinaceas I have and, according to many, they do seem to be a safer investment as far as the potential to overwinter. Next spring should prove very instructive for me, and I hope I don't regret buying so many!

One variety of echinacea I can highly recommend based on the 3 seasons I have had it is "Hot Summer". It has been very hardy and is very floriferous.

Here is a link that might be useful: HOT SUMMER CF

I have also had Hot Summer return vigorously for me a second year, and I like it very much, but while it's early season blooms were prolific, I didn't see many secondary flushes. The most prolific bloomer for me is Sombrero Hot Salsa.

I think I have to take back my positive comment about 'Milkshake'. It has survived a few winters and did bloom nicely earlier in the season, but now it's looking sickly. Now that I think about it, I believe it did the same thing last year - started out good then went downhill. I'll probably be taking it out. Too short of a good bloom season for me.

Kevin