I've gardened for many years and the one thing I've learned is to know what plants do well in MY garden. There are so many plants that are touted as the latest and greatest. Most of them are very expensive. Unless it's a plant I know will do well in my climate and without too much coddling, then I don't bother with it. I don't like tossing money away.

I might be more inclined to give it a chance if I found it on clearance, but then they usually aren't in the best shape and you are taking a risk with it surviving the winter.

If the leaves on the stem don't have any signs of infection... i say just cut off the damaged portion and let it be to see what happens. It doesn't sound like it has some raging disease.

Indigo Skye, I would like to remind you: it is a plant(a sickly one),please do not compare it to children. My wife is a nurse too, and she would never compare a plant to a child. Try to keep it in the right perspective. There must be a limit somewhere.

I sort of agree with Weislaw in the sense that if a plant or garden requires chemical life support to grow and thrive, then it's not worth it. I will stake a few things (Peonies), am using hardware cages around the roots of some plants in the front garden (voles), use barriers in the veggie garden, and will occasionally use an organic spray or repellent. I'm trying to create not only a thing of beauty but also a habitat in my gardens where insects, birds, and toads and such can live or find resources they need to live, and chemicals are simply not compatible with that goal.

Perhaps you could create a more hospitable environment for the Tiki Torch, maybe try using a gritty potting mix in your pot that is better drained.

I think we all should cut her some slack. The plant will get better. The fungicide is not going to end the world. I used it before. It dries and doesn't require much to treat one plant.

Weislaw no, they are not children. But they are still beautiful creations worth saving (if possible) in my eyes. And like I said my question was just that "a question" not something meant to imply anything or offend. This is a forum for gardeners and lovers of plants with widely varying degrees of knowledge, is is not? And I did ask you if there was anything natural that would provide the same effect as the fungicide. If the plant is truly lost to any chance of recovery, then so be it. But I just find it hard to believe that any lover of plants would simply throw it out with little regard to it or even a small attempt to nurture it back to health.

Granted, maybe you have more experience with trying to do just that. But then maybe you don't. I really don't know because I don't know you. But what I got from your comment to just throw it away and be done with it was that you are much more comfortable than I am in just casting aside the things that you find less than perfect. I am sure that is not how you meant to come across, but that is how it struck me so that is why I asked the question.

Echinaceamaniac, it is not helping. The plant will die sooner than later and you know it.It is worthless. I do not understand why she should totally unnecessary prolong her own 'suffering' instead of just facing the truth. Babying a 'living dead' is a waste of time in my opinion.

A single blossom has failed and now we are concluding that the plant is going to die? Wow. I think people are jumping to conclusions. This thing can probably be saved rather easily -- I've saved plants that were a lot worse off.

I obviously did not come across clearly enough. What I meant is : this plant is a worthless product, which was advertised by indecent people under false pretenses. You were just unaware of it and bought it. I just told you the truth. Less then perfect has nothing to do with it. Nobody should expect perfection, average would sometimes be fine. Do you WANT to be miserable on PURPOSE? It is how you came across to me.

Still worth fighting to save, in my opinion. There is something causing it -- part of the fun (and misery) of gardening is figuring out what is causing your problems not just giving up on it.

wieslaw59: I agree with you that this line isn't the best and many people have backed this up with their own experiences. I am a purist when it comes to Echinacea, but I still think it is intriguing to figure out what is going on here.

It does well in cooler zones. I know people in Canada who over-winter this plant fine. Here it is a short-lived plant, but I'd enjoy it and treat it the best I could. It does have great color that doesn't fade.

oh for crying out loud - ditch these absolute rubbish echinaceas and investigate heleniums, gaillardias or even annual tithonias if you want orange daisies.
They are a waste of effort, money and time, bred from weak and sickly species (paradoxa, pallida) and will NEVER amount to much. But hey, those of you who are happy to chuck away money and prolong the life of an animated corpse, don't take any notice of my opinion but as far as I am concerned, life is too short to fret over a crappy hybrid coneflower. And no, they are NOT babies, they are plants, and disease sumps at that.

What a bizarre thread, I would keep the plant until it died as sometimes plants get better with time. But my yard is survival of the fittest, and no chemical help, but it's not like it's taking up a huge amount of room or running rampant.
Keep it, toss it, whatever, it's not a baby!
But if I paid a lot for it I would tend to keep it, without question lol.

Such a bizzare thread indeed! Yes this ech hasn't been good for people .... but for others it does just fine... including myself. There is even a large clump that was planted in a public garden area here and it has done just fine for years straight(4-5). They don't get tended, automatically watered, or anything and bloom just fine. So it could just be a matter of zones and growing conditions.

I don't think advising anyone to just yank it out and trash it for what appears to be currently be a minor issue is a valid "please help with my plant" post response. It might end up heading south anyway later on.. who knows... but the plant is alive right now.. with a mere dead flower bud.. so why not tend it like any other plant you purchase and give it a chance (cue the dramatic Lifetime music)

Here's mine right now. Planted last year.

{{gwi:232861}}

Wait a minute - since when are Echinacea paradoxa and E. pallida weak and sickly species?? My species E. paradoxa plant is growing just fine - although they are vole magnets and it's the only one that escaped their carnage.

Perhaps it's the fact that a lot of the newer Echinaceas are unstable hybrids? My hybrid Helenium 'Mardi Gras' bloomed nicely for 2 years and then diminished and died out in a similar fashion to the Big Sky echs and I thought those were supposed to be durable.

Why is having one or two bent flower stems being interpreted as a plant that is "falling apart from disease"? The poster never mentioned anything that suggests a rampant disease on the plant.

I too don't suggest any spraying. And as the aside with colony collapse disorder... it is an issue in the EU as well.

Nobody suggested pesticides in the first place. A fungicide is not killing bees. As far as bees go in America...they are all in my yard enjoying non-native Delosperma and Russian Sages. Bees are buzzing all over here today. I can post video if people need reassurance.

Hi echinaceamaniac, please do post the video, providing more information about what is killing the bees :-)

don't worry about posting a video... i found them

{{gwi:232862}}

Isn't it sad to have to go all the way to the beach to find bees?

I have a lovely crabapple that is at least ten years in the ground in my yard that gets fireblight each year. Most years I cut it out but can't reach it all.

I suppose I could go cut it down completely - and go plant a disease resistant one- and be done with it but it's still a handsome tree and blooms beautifully each year. If it ever dies, THEN I will cut it down.

Since when is perfection in the garden the norm?

The first rule of gardening is that there is no right or wrong. Do what pleases you -- it is your garden after all. The second rule is that it is fun and nothing more. If you are doing it for fun, how can you argue or get confrontational?

The organic vs. synthetic debate is a great one. Do what you want to do. If you want to be organic, have at it. But don't try to shove that dogma down my throat when there is no established scientific evidence that pesticides (as we are typically exposed to them) are harmful to human health or bee health for that matter (would be open to any rigorous peer-reviewed studies that show that they are). Most of the connection between pesticides and human (or bee) health are merely conjecture (I think there is a connection here and I will be damned if a lack of scientific evidence will get in my way!). Coming from a scientific background, that just doesn't cut it for me.

All food growers use pesticides of some variety or we wouldn't have food. Often, the organic pesticides are more toxic than the synthetic ones (gasp!). Many synthetic chemicals (organic-only folk love that word, yet every element and compound in the universe is a "chemical" and every element and compound is also "organic") are much less dangerous than those that occur in nature. I think it is silly that we trash these "chemicals" when they are responsible for the success of modern agriculture and not a shred of scientific evidence suggests they are harming us (again, point me to something and I will bite.) I am off the soapbox. Good luck with Tiki Torch.

Cut the affected stems off.

Plant it where it has great air flow around it. Don't crowd it. Plant it in full sun in well draining soil and don't overwater it.

Echinacea are native to the prairies. Where they have excellent sun and air flow.

Fungal diseases are due to conditions not to the plant being defective.

Personally, I minimize the use of chemicals (both organic and synthetic) in my garden and believe others should do the same. I use granules to control snails and slugs, bloom booster for my annuals, Osmocote for my perennials, and Hollytone for my acid-lovers. I pull weeds by hand. I don't advocate using chemicals unless absolutely necessary because, yes, if everyone used them with reckless abandon, we'd ruin our ecosystem. There are considerations beyond your own garden for sure and I am careful to take them into account.

My main concern was with the way that wieslaw59 summarily dismissed a chemical remedy for this situation, told the OP to trash the plant based on some anecdotal evidence that it is a bad cultivar, then attacked every other differing opinion as invalid.

I probably wouldn't advocate a chemical remedy for this problem unless I knew definitively that it was caused by something that could be most easily and effectively fixed with a chemical. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone wants to suggest a chemical remedy, they shouldn't be trashed. Backyard gardeners do not cause the bulk of the pollution/contamination problems in our ecosystem; we operate on far too small a scale. So, save the hyperbole please.

As for the OP, when a plant is having issues, I like to take control of as many variables as possible and give it optimal growing conditions: Dig it up and pot it up with a nice well-draining high quality potting soil. Prune off all diseased stems to the ground. Trim off anything that looks bad. Keep it well watered and give it plenty of sun, a small amount of slow-release fertilizer. If you can, keep it out of the garden and away from any potential pests (perhaps on a deck or patio). Baby it for awhile and see if the vigor returns. If it does, consider re-planting it in the garden. If it still suffers even under this type of "hospital" care, it may have a systemic disease and end up dying. But at least you gave fixing it a good shot.

Group hug.

I probably shouldn't but I feel I have to add my two cents worth about the Tiki Torch with a dying bud. I wonder how many of us have purchased a potted perennial, brought it home, and had some buds or even new growth die on it. I don't think it's unusual for that to happen. There was a thread here about how perennials are treated with forced feedings and watering prior to reaching the nursery/stores for public purchase. The buyer brings them home to a new environment and the plant has to adjust to changes in light, soil, temperature, feedings, etc. There have been threads where other Gardenweb members have even voiced the opinion that you should cut off buds of newly planted perennials to encourage root growth the first year you put in a perennial. I don't see anything horribly wrong with Indigo_Skyes plant from the picture. I'd cut off any buds that don't bloom out and go on growing the plant. Even some of the healthiest plants have buds that don't open correctly from year to year. No big deal here.

As to the garden-worthiness of the newer Echies, I can only speak from my experience here in a mixed bed in zone 6. I purchased 4 of the Big Sky Series plants as plugs in 3 inch pots during the spring of 2007. Sunrise, Harvest Moon, Summer Sky, and Sunset have all been growing and thriving here since then. Of these 4, I would say Sunset is probably the "weakest" plant among them, but it is fine, and is blooming right now as we speak. All, but Sunrise have produced volunteer seedlings through the years. I don't pull them all out, and some grow and bloom like the parent plant, and others can be the color of the regular Purple Cone Flowers. I also grow Paradoxa and have had it even longer than my Big Sky Series plants. I moved it here when we moved into this house in August of 2006 and it was a year old at that time. It has tripled in size and is healthy and robust. The bees love it, and so do I. I have a volunteer seedling that I suspect is from a cross of it with E. Sunset that looks exactly like Tiki Torch - I'm glad I didn't pull that one when weeding!
This is it's second year in my garden and I love it. It's tall, like Paradoxa and the cones have the exact same spicy fragrance. In NO way could either the parent Paradoxa or this Tiki-Torch lookalike be called sickly or deformed. None of my other Big Sky Echies produce alien, or foreign looking blooms. Their flowers are just pastel colored cone flowers. Nothing really different from the pictures I've seen of them.

I don't give them anything special but general good gardening treatment. We do mulch our beds and I feed with a liquid fertilizer a couple of times during the growing season. The beds are watered if we don't get rain for a week. I don't dead head all of the spent blooms so that I can share seeds with other gardeners who are interested in growing some of the seeds out to see what color of flowers they get- an interesting thing to do, I think.

This has been MY experience with E. Paradoxa, and four of the Big Sky Series plants. Here is a picture of my Tiki Torch Lookalike, one of my favorite plants of all my perennials:

{{gwi:232863}}

Linda

Holy Cow! I didn't mean to start World War Three!!! Geeze, all I did was ask if anyone knew what the problem was and how to possible correct it. While I appreciate MOST of the responses I have received on here, there are those that I think I will "just throw in the trash" so to speak. We all have our own way of dealing with things in life and there is no ONE right or wrong way to do those things, just what we feel is best for us at the time. I myself like what Confucious had to say "Better a diamond with a flaw, than a pebble without".

I myself am not a quitter by nature (like Mistascott) and think that part of the fun is figuring out what is wrong and seeing if I can make it better. I do not walk away in defeat without a good fight NOR would I simply dig something up and toss it in the trash simply because it seems SLIGHTLY and I emphasize the SLIGHTLY imperfect! I agree with Bumblebeez (who by the way is from my neck of the woods) that since when is perfection the norm in a garden?

Having said that I can also assure you that I do my part in trying to make our world a healthier place to live as well. I recycle my trash and repurpose just about anything I can in order to keep things out of the landfills. And not only did I grow up on what I considered a small farm where we grew our own vegetables and raised our own cows, chickens and pigs, but I also studied limnology in school so I think I have a better than average knowledge base to go on when it comes to gardening and environmental concerns. So Mr Wieslaw your little quote "I dismissed chemical remedy because it is not good for the nature, especially in the hands of a person who has absolutely no clue what she is doing(it appeared to me this way)." is nothing but arrogant conjecture on your part. I may not know what is causing this particular problem in this particular plant (having never had an echinacea nor seeing this ever happen) but that doesn't imply that I have no clue as to what I am doing. Ignorance comes in many forms, and in my experience the ones I find most ignorant are the ones that think they have and know all of the answers instead of attempting to seek out more knowledge from the people that ACTUALLY know more than they do. That is what I was doing, seeking out information and knowledge from those that I thought might have way more knowledge about this problem than I do. And while you might and probable do fit that description, I can assure you that I do not now nor will I likely in the future accept anything you have to say based simply on the fact that you come across as nothing more than a miserably troll that likes to pass judgement and ridicule on people you do not know. So do me a favor and spare me any more of your advice on this thread and anymore I might post in the future.

So to answer all of the suggestions from all the other people that left me advise WITHOUT passing unfounded judgement:
* the tiki is not over watered, unless as I stated it is by Mother Nature herself
* it is indeed already potted and not in the ground so there is little potential that it will spread any potential disease to anything else
* it is in well drained soil already
* it gets PLENTY of sunlight being that it is on the southern facing area of my yard
* I did / do cut off any affected stems and leaves
* it does get lots of air movement being on my deck and not in the ground.
* and I promise that I am not the type of person to just pick up a bottle of poison and go on a rampage in my yard. Anything I do is only done AFTER I have researched all aspects and avenues that could be taken. And although I have never in the past used a fungicide, chemical or natural, I have already began researching both types and at this point I am more inclined to go the natural route IF I feel it is warranted. Right now I am simply pruning the bad areas, what few there has been, and seeing where that gets me. So far it is doing well as you can see of the photo here. These are all of the plants I have on the deck including the Tiki Torch. And as you can see, they are all doing pretty good. The only one looking a bit worse for wear to me is the Stella De Oro daylily that I am trying to save from all the Bermuda grass that got into it and tried to choke the life out of it. So I dug it up, divided it out and am nursing it back to health.

Thank you again to all the great advice given and I am sorry that I somehow and very unintentionally started World War III here.

Michelle

Indigo sky, I'm sorry, I obviously worded it wrongly. To my defence : there is no way to edit postings here once they are sent.

wow, now I can honestly say that I never expected an apology from you! That being said, thank you very much for the apology and I accept it whole heartedly.

Might I offer you a bit of advice? Since we indeed cannot edit a post we make once we submit it, then maybe you should practice the art of proof reading what you write before you press the submit button :). You might also make a slight attempt at actually being helpful to the "original" question or request. If someone ask for help saving a plant that should indicate that they probably do not want to just throw it away, but would like to salvage it if it is possible. And even though it might be your experience in your own plants that they can't be saved, others have shown that in their experience they can be saved. So if you have no actual advise as to how to help them, maybe instead of telling them to dig it up and throw it away you might have more valuable advice to give by simply telling them what you have actually tried yourself that didn't seem to work. That in my opinion would be better information to help than simply the "dig it up and toss it in the trash" response you gave me.

My only concern is that pot looks very shallow that your Tiki Torch is in. I don't know how deep it is, but I'd consider a deeper pot judging by what it looks like in that photo.

Linda - Your Tiki Torch is beautiful. That is what everyone wanted when they bought these! Mine was similar, but it didn't look quite that good here.

Indigo skye, thank you for accepting my apology. As far as the rest of your posting is concerned : if I was presented with an option of using poisons on what most probably is 'plant without much future' and tossing it out, I would still advocate for the latter. This part has not changed. I would present you that option whether you asked about it or not. I would really want you to post the picture of the plant next summer. Then I will congratulate you, under the condition - poison free.

I second echinaceamaniac's concern about pot depth. They like plenty of room to grow deep roots. Other than that, everything looks great for it to have a good chance at recovery.

I noticed a few posts are now missing and they weren't as contentious as some of the ones that were left up. I am seriously reconsidering any further contributions to this forum.

Thank you, echinaceamaniac! I'm quite proud of it, even though I have to give kudos to the wind or the wild carnaries, that dropped the seed where it grows. I keep thinking that I could have weeded/de-volunteered all the seedlings in that area, and I wouldn't have it now.

Good luck indigo_skye with your plants. They look great on the patio.

Linda

I too noticed that many of the post were missing. I still had them in my email to read, but they aren't here for others to read. I am assuming it is to bring the level of hostility down several notches so as to not discourage others that are just now discovering this site (like myself). That being said, I did read them all and still have them in my email to reread if I feel like it.

As far as the depth of the pot, it is actually about 8 inches deep and 18 inches wide. If those of you that know echinaceas well think it is much to shallow then I will be moving it to a deeper one asap. I used this pot in particular for two reasons. First in order to give the grouping more dimension and visual appeal (sorry, that is the artist in me coming out). And secondly, because I eventually intend on planing it in the ground and here in South Carolina the soil is PREDOMINATELY red clay that is terribly hard to dig and get plants to grow well in without either digging it up and replacing it with better soil or building it up higher with better soil! You can actually see the red clay stains on the yellow pot from simply being down on the ground and the rain splashing it up around the pot. I was hoping that this more shallow but larger in diameter pot might encourage the roots to grow more lateral and therefore maybe allow me to not have to dig up or build up the soil quite so much. This may not work and I would love to hear your opinion on my theory, particularly if you also have hard red clay to deal with in your yards! But like I said, if the pot is an issue I can very easily change that!

Now Wieslaw, I never said to give me a remedy that involved poisons did I? I simply asked for help identifying what was wrong and ways to make it get better and let me figure out what was best for me. You could, and still can, simply offer the knowledge of what DID'T work in your experience. That too would be valuable knowledge for myself and others seeking similar help. To me knowing what doesn't work is as helpful as knowing what does. As far as a possible fungal infection goes, my research so far has led me to both chemical AND natural remedies for this. This information also came from the reputable nursery that I purchased the plant from in the first place who in fact grow them and do not order them from an outside mass market wholesaler. I still at this time plan on taking a triage sort of view on it and will just prune away the few bad areas and change any other possible aspects that I can that will encourage a healthier plant. And I hope that I can impress you next summer with a beautiful healthy Tiki Torch!!

Echinaceas are very challenging for many people in containers. They are so easy to over water. That will be the main challenge. I hope it does well and you can post updated photos next year!

thanks echinaceamaniac. I am being careful not to over water it. Actually I am concerned that being on the south side and baking in the CONSTANT hot sun all day with temps in the upper 80s and 90s already, that it might get too dried out! I know that they are supposed to be drought tolerant and that is one of the reasons that I love the idea of having some in my garden, but I am certain that they too will have their limits.

I notice that you are also in zone 7, so do yours get constant all day sun as well?

Most of my Echinaceas get full sun, but the blooms seem to last longer if they get morning sun and less hot afternoon sun. I would put it where it gets morning sun and early afternoon sun. After that some shade would probably be good for it in the afternoon.

good to know. But sadly the majority of my yard is FULL BLASTING sun! but I have a few places that should do just fine. Thanks for the tip

I haven't posted to this thread yet, but I thought I'd a make a few comments.

Furst off, gardengal, thank you for the post on Sclerotinia stem rot. Five years ago, some of my Echinacea Magnus began to rot in exactly the manner Indigo-Skye described. I had no idea what was wrong, but I removed all the dying stems. The remining plants bounced back and now I have a thick stand of healthy Echinacea in the very same area.

Secondly, I bought two Tiki Torch last year. One got an unexpected pruning before I sprayed for deer. It's already putting out new growth and I hope it will flower. The other plant already has two opened flowers and lot of buds. I do not believe that this is a plant that should be automatically trashed. I hope yours recovers fully; it's a very pretty plant imo.

thanks so much. I am glad to hear that someone else has had what appears to be the same problem as me and have healthy plants after little more than pruning the unhealthy stems. That gives me great hope that mine will bounce back as well.

That 8" deep pot would be great for a strawberry plant. I'd go with a deeper (18" or so) for echinacea, though. Their roots routinely poke out of gallon containers at the nursery which are about 10" deep. Best of luck to you. Keep us updated on how the plant progresses.

I planted tomato soup ech three years ago, in full sun and well draining soil as recommended. It did terribly. Rather than trash it, I moved it around. Finally placed it in part shade with better soil and more moisture. It gave me fantastic blooms last year and looks even better this year. There is a certain satisfaction in having accomplished this little thing rather than trashing it at first try. I will try post some pics later. I also agree pot needs to be deeper

I planted tomato soup ech three years ago, in full sun and well draining soil as recommended. It did terribly. Rather than trash it, I moved it around. Finally placed it in part shade with better soil and more moisture. It gave me fantastic blooms last year and looks even better this year. There is a certain satisfaction in having accomplished this little thing rather than trashing it at first try. I will try post some pics later. I also agree pot needs to be deeper

* the tiki is not over watered, unless as I stated it is by Mother Nature herself

Don't write this off as the problem. A lot of people write like zones are the be all and end all of what is going to survive where. However, any reasonable discussions of climate have to also cover humidity and rainfall. There are a lot of plants that are at least as picky over the moisture levels as they are about temperature, and E. paradoxa has always been on that list. As somebody already mentioned, this is a prairie plant that is adapted to a climate that averages between 20" and 30"of rain a year. Trying to grow that type of plant in a climate that gets twice that requires certain adjustments to thinking.

In other words, pretend it is a cactus that requires chill hours to thrive.

And yes, I've known people to deliberately plant things like this under the house overhangs to keep them dry.

If you repot it to a deeper pot (I would) then it would not hurt at all to add some perlite to the potting soil to increase drainage. Lifting the pot off the deck with pot feet would also help. Perlite is cheap, it is the white stuff (volcanic rocks) in potting soil. Because our weather is so rainy I mix extra perlite in a lot of my pots.

Tiki Torch is a hybrid of E. purpurea and E. paradoxa - since E. paradoxa is more drought tolerant, growing in a drier native habitat, I would also add extra perlite, or use more of a cactus mix or gritty mix in the pot. The Container Gardening forum has lots of threads on Tapla's (aka Al) gritty mix. He also explains concepts like the "perched water table" that exists in pots.

The gritty mix killed some Echinaceas I was growing. It dries out too quickly. I'd mix it at least half and half wirh potting soil.