If you bought one of these recently, return it asap. Believe me... You don't want these in your garden.

My first evidence is the deceptive tag..

These plants will NEVER be that deep pretty color. I don't care if you grow them in Heaven which is where they usually end up!

Next up is the blooms. The following bloom is seriously deformed. Even the cone looks suspicious. I really think these have some type of phytoplasma or virus.

Look at the ugly color, cone and petals! YUCK!

Here is the best color I found, but look at the deformed petals!

I leave you with more photographic evidence of the problems with this plant. Someone should do the right thing and stop selling this plant. Itsaul Plants is aware of the problem and still shipping this mutant out all over the world. Who knows what the truth is about the disease or genetics that is causing this problem, but I pulled all of my Big Sky plants and burned them yesterday!

Dumb question from a non-coneflower expert: Regarding the quilled petals, don't some people *want* them? I'm referring to your third photo - good color but deformed petals. Actually, while I personally think that bloom is u-g-l-y I can almost guarantee if a plant with blooms like that were for sale on the garden bench, they would sell it as the latest and greatest and of course people would buy it! The other quilled photos - no, those just look sickly, but that one with a full bloom of quilled photos, yep I can see people actually wanting that...

There is an echinacea for sale that has the quilled petals called "All That Jazz," but all of them are quilled the same.

This plant is supposed to have flat petals like normal coneflowers but with an orange color (the tag has a color someone doctored though).

By the way, my Harvest Moon is now on its 9th bloom for this year. Still haven't seen a single petal on any bloom. I am going to yank it up. Can't believe I spent that much money on a dud. The Paradoxa is just as bright, and costs a lot less. I paid $3.50 a quart for the Paradoxa. Went back and they don't have any more, so I will have to save seeds and/or wait till next year.

What about the quilled petals? Do you think that is acceptable for a plant that costs 10 dollars per plant?

Thanks for your observations. I wish you could post photos of the problems.

My goal is to make the producer of these echinacea plants acknowledge the problem and stop using suppliers that are creating these deformities. If they can't solve the problem, they should recall the plants.

SEMI-CACTUS: Petals flat at the base, with less than one-half of the petals rolled or quilled.

STRAIGHT CACTUS: Petals rolled for one-half their length of the straight or nearly straight petal.

Echinacea ‘All That Jazz’
has quilled petals .
So I do not find quilled petals as a virus or diseased
plant.

Blueangel

Look at the picture on that tag. None of the petals on that picture are quilled.

If quilled petals are ok, why did this same company discontinue the similar Sunset plant from production for this very same problem?

These plants aren't advertised to have quilled petals. It would be ok if they were like "All That Jazz" and had a neat, uniform look.

There is a disease called Phytoplasma that can cause all kinds of deformed blooms. The only way to rule it out would be to test some of these plants with the deformed petals. I've been growing echinacea plants for years and I know this isn't a normal characteristic of these plants!

The blooms would be desirable if they all were the same and were uniform. These are randomly like this. Some of them are very short and it looks like a missing petal. These are supposed to be symmetrical. These are basically supposed to be a coneflower that has orange blooms just like the purple coneflowers. They don't. It's like a birth defect! LOL.

When plants are sold featuring quilled petals, the petals are uniformly quilled. This isn't the same thing. Something is happening in the tissue culture that is causing some of the plants to have no "normal" blooms.

These aren't intentionally bred in in this case. If it was the case, the pictures on their website would feature a picture like mine showing these petals this way. On the ItSaul Plants website all the plants have perfectly symmetrical normal blooms and petals.

They have acknowledged by email that they are aware of the problem and are trying to solve it.

I think these blooms are deformed. If you don't agree that is ok, but I expect a plant to at least have 1 normal bloom on it when I grow it. If it doesn't I get rid of said plant. These plants cannot be compared to the other plants you mentioned. These have 1 or 2 or more petals on each bloom that are quilled. It's not like the ones where every petal is this way. This looks like a deformed bloom. Those Osteospermums with spoon petals look beautiful because all of the petals are symmetrically the same quilled form; however, it's not acceptable for a plant to have blooms like my pictures above when they are promising a plant like the pictures they use to sell them!

Cameron

Does anyone know anything about the company "Stacy's"? I'd like to know more about them. I'd also like to know where I can buy some of these like the ones in the pictures Cameron posted.

I hope you understand that I think the problem is the supplier of these plants. I am very sure they have more than one. I bet you anything there is something wrong with plants from certain suppliers.

If any of you are shopping and see plants like these with deformed blooms, please come here and post photos and tell us where you saw them. I'd also like to know if someone could post a photo of normal plants they see for sale and try to find out who the supplier is. I really want to find a supplier that can sell me a normal plant.

I hope this makes sense. I want to replace my plants with good ones, but I can't find any good ones here!

It's very obvious that Stacy's is producing some bad coneflowers!

My Big Sky echs are NOT Stacys. Nor did I get them from a box store. They came from 4 or 5 different independent garden stores. No chains.

Cameron

PS In case you're interested. The deer haven't eaten any of mine as you can tell from the pictures. They've tasted some of the neighboring rudbeckia, so they've been right there in the coneflowers.

No quilled petals, but the color does eventually fade to a peachy pink color.

Bonnie

Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with Stacy's Greenhouses, nor do I have any relatives or friends employed by them. I do purchase some plants from their suppliers, including Itsaul Plants, but I do not grow or sell Echinaceas. Not my cup of tea! Sorry.
Rb

Blueangel

He said if you purchase a plant like this to ask for a refund.

Either way, the recommendation to only buy plants with several acceptable flowers on them is a good one. I suspect by the time this is all over and we have good, reliable coneflowers of various new colors out there, the problems seen with the Big Sky series, as well as the defunct Meadowbright series will offer good lessons as to what can go wrong when trying to make an entirely new color range for a flowering plant.

Blueangel

Anyway, as soon as my new camera arrives, I'll share photos of my lovely plant this year. It currently has 4 mature blooms and 4 buds. One of the blooms is a gorgeous and vibrant red... ON ONE HALF. The other half has no petals at all. Two of the other blooms aren't fully mature but thus far it looks like they will have petals on half the cone as well. The one "normal" bloom was an ugly bleached out peach from the beginning and sports quilled and normal petals. It's far from desirable. It looks downright ratty. I'm just glad I was too cheap to fork over $17.50 for the Harvest Moon I was lusting after last year. As soon as the camera has arrived and I capture the pure ugliness of that plant for posterity, that baby is getting yanked and burned.

Echinacea: I second your outrage.

For the record, my plant was bought from a reputable nursery at our local Farmer's Market... so it's not just a box store thing.

I am retired from a career in technology where I worked for a software company. As an IT manager, I had to purchase new computer hardware in beta (pre-production) so that our developers could write code to work on the latest and greatest machines before the machines were sold to the public. Sometimes those machines had a lot of glitches and subsequent models were okay, some were not. I could go on and on about computer chips, computer models, etc. that you've never heard about because they didn't work out for the market. There were also many machines that made it to the market that didn't work well for the public and the public purchased those machines.

I called this the "bleeding edge" rather than "leading edge" of technology. When you buy the newest thing, this can happen. If you see new plants, give them a few years for someone else to take the risk to test them out for you...someone will. Let someone else kick the tires!

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex578

I have Tiki Torch, but I won't say it's great until my 4 plants return this spring. Until then, it did have nice color in the blooms which didn't fade. It's a vast improvement over Sundown so far in my opinion. The Big Sky Series has colors which fade to a pastel, muddy color after a few days. I don't like that color at all. The deformed petals and lack of winter hardiness are also drawbacks.

In any case, as I believe has been already mentioned, it appears as though some of the tissue-culture labs are doing things slightly different than others, and this is causing some "bad batches" of plants that produce deformed flowers.

echinaceamaniac, do you have any follow-up now since the summer?

I grow lot's of coneflowers and I have had problems with many Big Sky cultivars. I used to buy every coneflower when it hit the market. I'm more discriminating now and am happy to be able to come here and read about all of your experiences. I respect EM for the attention to this genus.

I don't know why EM's comments weren't understood any better. It's OK for a plant to have quilled petals; but it should be consistantly quilled. It's a freak of nature when just a few petals, leaves, etc. grow differently. A responsible hybridizer would breed until the plants were uniformly quilled before taking it to the market.

I think sometimes it can also be from indiscreet use of chemicals and homones. When it's a genetic problem; as gardeners we need to step up and just say NO. These patent holders are making a fortune off crap and when they realize we are catching on, they sell it under another name... *steps down from platform*.

I'm with you, EM. Keep up the good work.

The only 3 new plants I can safely recommend anyone are:

Razmatazz, Pink Double Delight and Coconut Lime.

The Big Sky Series is a gamble. I'd consider them annuals and just watch the bloom quality before you purchase. Definitely pick a plant with 2-3 perfect blooms.

Tiki Torch may be a better orange plant, but I'll reserve judgment until it returns this spring. I ordered a Tomato Soup and Pink Poodle. I'd put money on Pink Poodle. The double varieties seem to be as healthy as the originals.

I (strongly) don't believe that the hybridizer in the case of the Big Sky series was irresponsible. It is oftentimes what is done by others afterward that causes these problems, and the hybridizer at that point, has little or no say in the matter.

One of the possible lessons to be learned here is to be wary of where you buy some of these new plants. In SOME cases, the big box stores will typically put a downward price pressure on the grower (even for new plants). The larger growers pass this along to the propagator (e.g. a tissue culture lab). At any point along the way, the price pressures may cause some to "cut corners" in the production of these plants. Hence, we get some batches of Echinacea with deformed petals.

Linda

possibly the plants were treated prior to purchase (I seem to remember echinaceamaniac lauding this product in another forum) and/or treatment after purchase by the OP.

I have noticed some deformities similar to the ones pictured in plants treated with 600 ppm foliar spray. plants from the same plug tray that were not treated did not exhibit this pattern.

I am hesitating to blame the PGR as my sample size was too small to draw statistically significant conclusions, however, from my anecdotal experience, I am leaning toward a possible association between flower performance and use of PGR.

I am planning to do some further testing this spring and I will also raise the question with other growers while I am at CENTS later this month.

These plants are seriously flawed. They rarely survive winter and many of them die in the hot summer. The double varieties don't have this problem. I think it could be something to do with the genetics of Echinacea paradoxa.

I believe someone has already mentioned this before, but it's beginning to sound more like Aster yellows disease. It could be that some crops are infected, and others are not.

Take a look at the link...

BTW, i'm in zone 9 -- CA.

j.

And I'd agree with others that the quality of the growing operation or producer has much to do with vigor or flowering reliability of the plants in question. As these are all patented plants and propagated solely under tissue culture, how well the licensed lab is maintained and conditions monitored will have a huge bearing on the success of the plant product they generate. Unfortunately for the average gardener, determining exactly who is producing the plants you purchase is going to be pretty much impossible. But you should be able to determine retailers that are offering a quality product - the GW forums like this one are great for exchanging that type of info.

Like a number of others, I have grown a variety of the Big Sky series myself and find them to be sound performers. I do believe source and growing conditions have much to do with their success, or lack of it, in the garden.

E. paradoxa in its native habitat requires fast draining soil and is not tolerant of heavy clay or water logged soil or much supplemental watering. Unfortunately, it's also contains the genetic pool necessary to create those crazy orange, red & gold colors which have become so popular over the last 4 years. But it's inherently more site specific then E. purpurea (from which MB & BG have been crossed with) which is more adaptive with it's fibrous root system.

I've just been back from a trade show - and among other things there is the usual hawking of the latest and greatest hybrid or cultivar including coneflowers. Most of those selling are 'marketing people' interested in selling big orders to garden centers & landscapers. And after 14 years of going it doesn't seem that too many vendors are concerned with how well they will perform over the years just in getting you to buy as much product as possible. That's just the reality of it.

But I still think it's good to ask these questions as EM is doing as these cutting edge perennials are expensive especially if you're buying more then a couple.

I suggested to one breeder that he conduct his trials by recreating the same conditions that the average suburban homeowner might have as found in a new windswept subdivision with 2 to 3 inches of topsoil/mulch over compacted subsoil and see how well his plants perform before sending them to market.

Annette

I'd like to ask whether you feel that the species cultivars will come true from seed, as I've read here at GW before that echs tend to revert back to plain old purple cones when grown from seed, or it may take several years for a cultivar to show its true colors (ie: double-decker, which this year is its 3rd or 4th season in my yard, and I am hoping it 'goes double' for me this year since that's what I've read it tends to do).

Thanks also for pointing out the Poodle! How adorable is THAT one?!!!

So a clump of several white-flowered plants, that is allowed to seed, might eventually have a pink/red form amongst them after a couple of years. I'm going to assume the chance of this occuring increases if you have some pink/red forms elsewhere in your garden.

They are really not pleasing to look at. Too bad.

My plants came from Ebay, and were plugs planted into 3 inch pots when they arrived. They were planted late spring/early summer, and I think that may be the key to their survival. They had all summer and fall to get established before the cold weather came. I also mulch my beds well.

I've been very pleased with all four plants and recommend them to friends who visit and want to know what they are. I get lots of compliments on them.

Linda

I work at a nursery, and we got quite a few of of the Big Sky series in last year. As they bloomed, all looked fine. Great actually. Yes, they're more expensive, but they also don't produce true to seed, and I can see how that would factor into price from wholesales. Also, as it's been stated, they're a new set of cultivars. These first few years, as if for everything new, is a testing period. Obviously, not everything makes it. I bought a couple, knowing that fully, and while it's coming back nicely, we'll see what I get when it blooms.

Also, I see no evidence whatsoever that these are associated with some kind of disease, more soever that they're spreading said disease throughout gardens across America. Honestly, that rings like BS with me.

One more thing to note, our plants come from Peoria and Iwasaki growers. If it factors into anything.

To test the theory about Paradoxa genes being the problem, last year I ordered 5 Echinacea Paradoxa plants...They all returned in the same flower bed and all are blooming. They are beautiful. Paradoxa grows perfectly fine here in the same bed as the Big Sky Series and Tiki Torch that failed. So I think it's something else causing the problem in these plants.

I purchased 1 pot of each in summer 2007, #1 size (2.6 qt) at $14.99 each. Steep, but the colors were breathtaking. At time of purchase they were blooming well but were only about 18" tall. This year they are over twice that height.

Mine came from a reputable local garden center, pic of grower's tag below. (Not pointing fingers or placing blame, just showing that mine are not from a big box store or Stacy's). Per tag, mine came from Premium Plants (premiumplants.net), HORTECH, INC., Nunica, MI. (I live near in northern IN, common for most nursery stock in this area to come from Michigan growers.)

Last year, after one entire year in my garden they bloomed pretty much true to color but blooms were sparse, height was about 2 - 2 1/2', ideal for the site and accurate to tag info. I counted on it being entirely unlikely seeds would produce any true plants, but in fall '08 I scattered some of the dried flower heads in the same area just to see what I'd get if anything.

This year, I am sorely disappointed. I have a nice size healthy patch of the biggest mix of coneflower I've ever seen. I have true Purple and White, true to form, and plenty of them. Well over 3' tall. Nothing against those varieties, just not my cup 'o tea, so I've never purchased or planted any purple or white for my beds. You can see a good example of white in photo, purple are to the rear and don't show up in pic. I've wondered if the seeds I dropped did not somehow revert back to a parent plant. Cross pollination occurred to me, as my neighbor has purple in her front yard, about 150' from mine. However no one nearby has white that I've seen. Also, it's not visible in photo but a clump to the rear is erect till about the 18" point, then stems with buds are doing a funky curl downward, some have a few bends to them, but still downward directed. My mother has a large patch of Purple Coneflower in her yard for years and I've never seen hers distorted like that. (I've not amended the soil in that area nor sprayed them with anything.)

The ones that are white are blooming already, but the ones that appear to have any yellow at all (Sunrise) are just starting to open. I can see already they are washed out, not the vivid yellow they were previously. I'd call it a creamy yellow. The Sunset is an even bigger disappointment. I have some quilled petals, some not. Some a faded lilac color, some on the pink side, some a blend of lilac/pink. Some petals have centers that are trying to be that vibrant orange, but are washed out and blend to the cooler pink/lilac.

Anyway, again, a big disappointment. I save all my gardening receipts and am tempted to see if the garden center will take them back. (They have a 1 yr warranty, but again, last year these plants were sparse bloomers but truer to tag.) I did notice that the garden center I got them from is not carrying these at all this year. (In fact of all the places I haunt, I've not seen them this year.)

I thought I had dodged the bullet.

Sunrise - 2005 to 2008 (four seasons) - did not return in 2009 after repeatedly being eaten to the ground by rabbits.

In their 3 years in my garden, growth and spread was good, flowers were perfect, no quilling ever. Good soft yellow color. No noticeable fading.

Sundown - 2006 to 2009 (four seasons)- in a raised bed with better than my usual drainage

Excellent spread, no quilling in 06,07,08 - minor quilling on some blooms in 09 which I attribute more to temps in the 40s at night in July which is highly unusual here. Moderate fading, but not as much as the fading of the Apricot Profusion Zinnias planted with them. Color difficult to describe - saturated orange with a pinkish underlay. Excellent color with many of my orange, peach, or yellow daylilies and set off well by blue purple blooms or blue-green foliage. Love this plant!

Sunset & Twilight - 2006, partial return in 2007, no return 2008, looked like good healthy plants all 2006 season. Never saw any quilling on any plants, not even Sunset. Excellent color on both, more vibrant than Sundown. Unfortunately, these were mostly expensive annuals for me.

Summer Sky - 2007 to 2009 (three seasons)

Good growth, healthy plants, heavy bloomer, very tall compared to others, good 4 feet. Slightly peachier than Sundown. Also an excellent color to mix with daylilies. No quilling at all, first two seasons, somewhat sloppier looking blooms this cold summer, maybe a few quills. No noticeable fading.

All plants were bought in early spring in quart size from a good local nursery and given good spots in my garden (as high and dry as I could manage) but no other special treatment. No fertilizer.

One of the things that I have found most delightful about these plants is that I am getting seedlings from them - one a very pretty yellow (brighter than Sunrise), two bright rose-pink ones (much better color than my purpureas, one of them with thin petals more like paradoxa has), one good coppery orange one, and a bunch of more drabber pinks than can be used in my purpurea bed.

Marc

"I had NO idea on the depths of my ignorance until I stumbled into this forum."

And all I wanted to ask was: Do any of you have 'Echinacea Double Decker'? & a couple of other??

I read & read & read last night until my eyes crossed ... at 6AM I ran out to check for 'quilling' (a new garden-term, to me) & other signs of deformities, on any of my (several clumps) 1 & only variety ... my beloved/loyal friend, 'PURPLE CONES'!!! At least I didn't dream, literally, as I did when I stumble on Hosta HVX Forum/thread!!! LOL

I can breathe easy ... no casualties on my lovely 'P CONES' (unlike :-( a few Hostas I had to kill). Many, many thanks, for this very informative discussion & pics, that spoke a thousand words!!! €;)

Back to my ??? - anyone, growing 'Double Decker'? Is Michigan Bulbs a good place to get this queenly looking, Echinacea? Would her care be as easy as my very ordinary, loyal, 'P CONE'?

Many TIA & please excuse my babbling! ... Oh & so good to read, posts from Garden Forum 'experts/friends'!

Get over to the following link:

Garden Watchdog

where thousands of gardeners rate every mail order nursery in existence and find out who the best of the best are. (Personlly, I've had great experiences with Bluestone, Joy Creek, Lazy Z and T's Flowers and Seeds)

If I ordered seeds, do I still have to worry where to order from? Surely, if a nursery is ill-reputed, their seeds may not be trusted, as well, right? Are these seeds readily available in racks of respectable nurseries, in town or are they only available from special growers? Sorry for these dumb ???

BTW it just dawned on me that I did purchase a 'Big Sky - Sunrise' from a good nursery, I frequent ... planted in Jul '07 next to my 'P Cone' & thought was doing well, all of a sudden it slowly fizzled & eventually dried up in place ... none of the other perennials around the site, showed any signs of suffering from anything ... checked my plant-tag file just now, it was from Bailey Nursery. I have many Bailey plants & have no complaints ... now I'm beginning to wonder about 'Big Sky', after reading the posts here.

Many thanks again! €;)

The Gold Finches, hopefully, wont get annoyed with the additional crown of petals!

Have a great day ... I will ... it's a gloriously, sunny & cool last day of July, here!!!

Ditas

http://www.thompson-morgan.com/plants1/product/p88431/1.html

Mount Hood - would be wonderful as a combo ... Bride & B'Maid, LOL!!! The Nursery had 'K Mophead', I thought about for combo, but I have 9 H paniculatas, all in their white/creamy white show, right now, that I decided against white. They have several shades of yellows & oranges, but as ignorant as I am abt Ech, with a bad experience on Big Sky, I'll wait a while just until concerns (valid or not) clears ... I have 2 huge clumps of Blk E Susies & Coreopsis to satisfy my 'yellow fever' LOL ... too bad 'Lemon Drops' are done.

'Still looking for something complement/separate this Ech DD from my P Cone group ... any thoughts? I appreciate all the edu' from this group!!! €;)

TIA! €;) ... Have a great garden day ... this is the last of our unseasonably cool July ... we're headed to real Summer as we know it!!!