be nice to know where you are ...

and why pack rats are an option ....

in all my years of gardening i never heard of such .... hopefully the local guy knows what he is talking about ...

can anyone teach me/us up on pack rats in the garden ????

if it were me.. i would set a trap.. and find out who the culprit is.. rather than guessing.. guessing makes it hard to win the battle ...

ken

That must be frustrating! The critters must have thought you were offering them a gourmet buffet. If pack rats are one of the critters, don't be too confident about the security of the prickly poppy. In the desert, pack rats will haul off with pieces cholla and other cacti. Sometimes their den will be completely covered in the spiny pieces.

No, not familiar with pack rats, either. Maybe they're another zone's version of voles?

Sorry not to explain about pack rats. I'm in New Mexico, in the high desert. We get average rainfall of under 10" a year. We've had 2" of precipitation this year. Most of the open space is cactus, yucca, some native grasses and wildflowers and lots of weedy things - thistles, brambles, tumbleweed, silver nightshade.

Pack rats are BIG rats with bushy tails. I would guess they weigh over a pound. They live in dens under rocks, or at the base of cacti. We zapped 2 or 3 last year. They get moisture from cactus, twigs and roots. As Gyr says, they are not intimidated by cactus, dragging bits of it into their nests for protection. They completely destroyed DH's car, moving in one night and eating all the insulation from the wiring to build a nest. This happens in this area at least once a year.

When the first plants disappeared, DH put chunks of cactus and rocks around what was left. The varmints pushed the rocks (around 2-3 lbs each) aside and ate what was left. He mounded bigger piles of stuff around the remaining plants. They then dragged more twigs and leaves towards the piles and started building a nest. I've asked DH to put the rat zapper out close to the plants in hopes of zapping more of them, but this may be a hopeless cause.

The nurseryman said it has to be rats because nothing else would eat agastache. They ripped off the leaves which were left all around the plant, and gnawed the stalks down to the ground.

They eat stalks and roots for water, unlike the bunnies and deer who eat leaves and flowers for food. We have plenty of each of these critters. If I put out plants which are (1) not tasty and (2) not juicy, won't they leave them alone?

Nothing bothers the Russian sage, chamisa and other natives - Mexican hat, gaura, cleome, gaillardia. I've planted nepeta, Mohave sage, sulfur flower (erigeron umbellatum), fern bush, mountain mahogany, 3-leaf sumac and New Mexican privet which haven't been disturbed. I'm hoping to find some other plants which won't appeal to the wildlife.

Cheryl

Here is a link that might be useful: pack rats

I can commiserate. I hear about the struggles with rats and voles and rabbits out there in the desert. They are voracious! I deal with deer, hogs, cats , armadillos and skunks. I have swear words for all of them. Chemical warfare is is cayenne pepper for the armadillos. Cages for the plants and guns for the deer and hogs. I use rocks to keep the cats (mine) from digging out the freshly planted things. I am in much more verdant land so they have a lot of plants to go after , but the deer just LOVE my desert mallows, and wine cups. I do use a stagy of intermixing desert mallow with lavender and salvias , plants they do not like and that seems to ward them off a little. I need lavender. The drought and cold spell killed them off and I am slow in replacing them The desert mallow gets routinely routed. I have not seen a bloom in years. SIGH. I use pointy agaves to plant my penstemons amongst also as a discouraging tactic. Agave stiata is great for this.. I plant defensively. I have a hesperaloe in amongst a fragrant mimosa so the brush foliage arches over the rosette and its 12' bloom is supposed to piece through the branches. I am still waiting. Every spring, I have hundreds of Yucca rupicols send out 8' bloom stalks all over my property and I have renamed them deer asparagrass. they slowly munch away every night, leaving the ones by the house for last. I never actually see a bloom. I need to kill me some deer. Chicken wire is good over newly planted things also. not to visible either, especially from afar.

Can you put out a guzzler for a water supply. That is a dog bowl that is feed with a hose. I got it from a feed store. It is great for the birds and maybe the rats will got for it instead of your plants. Otherwise, there is always traps and the heartless way. I don't like poisons because that works up the food chain and poisons the larger predators like coyotes and wildcats. If they get sick then the rat population really goes crazy. I am getting meaner in my old age.

Have you brought this up in the Arizona forum, because I know that this is such a common problem in the desert.

A rat problem here too- a few years ago our hill of juniper suddenly showed big brown areas and we discovered a pack rat nest underneath it. They had been chewing on the juniper trunks, and had also dragged in old pieces of 2x4s from all around our place, old bricks and big chunks of broken cinder block (!!) from our dump pile. Also old cans, don't know where they came from, and other miscellaneous old debris from all around the area including some rusty metal pieces. There is nothing they won't use for nesting! We cleared it all out and zapped us some rats and it's been quiet since then but we always always keep watch. Min

" Zapped us some rats" please explain.

Wantonamara - thanks for the sympathy. You think if I have enough stuff that the animals don't like, like lavender, it will help? I have two lavender plants right now, plus another Mohave sage and nepeta. The man at the nursery also suggested putting out water but it sounds weird to put out water for the rats who treat the garden like a salad bar.

Min - your rats are superrats! "big chunks of broken cinder block"?! I hate to think of what the nest must have looked like. We tried using a non-poisonous gas bomb to get the rats moved out from one nest. They threw the bomb out! Twice!!

Wantonamara - I think Min has a rat zapper like ours. It electrocutes the rat if it goes into the zapper and puts a paw on a metal plate. Death is supposed to be instantaneous and not painful. I'm sorry if this offends animal lovers but I can't accept having them eat the whole garden. So far the deer are happy eating fruit from our trees and haven't bothered the ornamentals.

Cheryl

Rats in the Four Corners area carry Hantavirus so if anyone does get upset or in your face over this thats a good counter argument. There have also been reports of Bubonic Plague in New Mexico from the fleas on these animals. Have you contacted local sources for appropriate traps or other means of killing them? This must be a common problem there. I would have no qualms about killing the pack rats but wantanamara makes a good point about the food chain if using poison. Remember the Jackrabbits during the Dust Bowl? Mass shootings were held as they rounded them up. Maybe you guys should have a pack rat shooting event, thats how they'd probably do it in Texas.

I read an article online about some people planting in desert conditions in Washington State but I couldn't find it. They made little cages and placed them over every single plant they set in the ground. Maybe you could space the process out over a period of time because it would mean a lot of extra work.

Cows eat prickly pear cactus in Texas if they are hungry enough. I don't know if cactus would be enough to keep a hungry determined critter away. I am sort of doubting it after reading what you wrote about the rats.

Cheryl, I found this website last night. They only sell to people who are doing land restorations. You can buy shrubs bareroot for around $1.29 or $2.29 for seedlings. They have some mountain species that would work in your area. They list grasses but don't seem to have any. Anyway, I thought of you when I saw it. How has the rain been? We've been wet this June so the draught is lessening at least for the meantime, I hope some has landed your way because it mostly seems to be coming from the west.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.highmtnnursery.com/servlet/the-470/ANTELOPE-BITTERBRUSH/Detail

Strange site, they sell Multi-flora rose and Amur maple both are invasives. They also have lilacs and other cultivated "ornamentals" . Not really the normal restoration types of plants. Some were good for the west . I am very interested in the site. Thanks Tex.

I know, I thought the same thing but they have some good stuff. I was looking for Sand Sage plants when I stumbled across it. Great starter prices and its not wholesale.

"Can you put out a guzzler for a water supply. That is a dog bowl that is feed with a hose. I got it from a feed store. It is great for the birds and maybe the rats will got for it instead of your plants."

wantonamara, thank you for bringing this up. I was trying to think of a way to ask the same thing. I know that all of our situations are different, but you did mention a few times that they're looking for water. They're just trying to survive like any living thing does. And since they're already there, it might be worth a try to put water somewhere off to the side of your gardens. ... I guess I'd hesitate if there's no predators around, if things are out of balance. You don't want a population explosion. But if you think water might work, it could be the easy and kind solution.

My short story: I read that deer don't like tomatoes, they eat them for the moisture. So I make sure to have birdbaths with water not too far off, and the deer seem to pass by the vegetable garden for the birdbaths. Knock on wood, but I haven't had a deer eat anything in my veggie garden for many years now even though they're around. I don't have large herds, just one to five at a time, but so far this has worked.

This post was edited by sandyslopes on Mon, Jun 30, 14 at 4:59

Tex - thank you for the website. The selection of natives looks great. I'll have to find other people to go in with me. Buying in lots of 25 is a little bit high for our acre. I can see DH's face if I tell him we have 75 new shrubs to plant.

BTW I went on a garden tour in Corrales a month ago. It's about 15 miles from us, but a completely different landscape. No chamisa, cholla or yucca constricta. But sand sage is everywhere! I thought of you as I looked at whole hillsides of it.

Shooting the rats isn't an option. I'm sure we'd be arrested if anyone thought we were firing off guns. I have terrible eyesight so I'm not touching a gun any time.

Sandyslopes - I would not put out poison. There is too much wildlife here and we depend on ground water for survival. I'm not going to trap the rats and move them to some other unfortunate person's land. But honestly I can't think of a single good reason to keep the rats alive. They're very destructive. DH's car repair ran to almost $3000. They harbor all kind of other pests like fleas and ticks. They're probably food for predators but there are lots of other prey, like the hundreds of rabbits on our property. I'm considering putting out water, if only to keep my plants alive. We already keep water out for the birds in the walled garden.

The deer have completely wiped out our apricots, cherries and grapes. They check on the apples regularly. We see whole families grazing on our land. I doubt this is just for water. This is a harsh climate and I don't blame them for taking what is available. But eating six wine cups, three agastaches and several poppies and coneflowers we had planted in painstakingly amended caliche is more than I can tolerate.

Cheryl

Cheryl, I was kidding about the shooting. Rednecks do that to Prairie Dogs here LEGALLY for sport if you can imagine. Its sickening. Most of the reasons P.D.s are fair game is based on false notions & ignorance. They are an important part of the prairie ecosystem. There is a large group with that mindset in these parts that approaches such problems with the solution of "just get the guns out". They have gun racks in the back of their pick-ups.

I was wondering if your cars had been hit yet . A friend of mine keeps his hood open to discourages them thinking the car is a place to hide from snakes. He says that works, just hearsay repeated. I don't know if that is for sure. He has lived out in the non developed desert for a LONG time in one of those abundant old Hippiedom areas that NM is famous for.