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mary_parsons3820

too late to fertilize new plants?

ynot
10 years ago

Am getting ready to plant some recently purchased perennials and have questions about feeding them. I don't fertilize my other plants (planted last fall or earlier) after the end of July. However, don't these new plants need a modest amount of fertilizer added to the planting hole, even in August?
If so, any recommendations? Don't want to use slow-release Osmocote for obvious reasons. Was considering Plant Tone. But since my main concern is building strong, healthy roots between now and next Spring, am considering bone meal, which is high in phosphorous.
Any advice appreciated.

Comments (28)

  • gardenweed_z6a
    10 years ago

    gardengal48 gave you excellent advice--most perennials generally don't need fertilizer once they're established in healthy soil. I don't fertilize my perennial beds altho' if I did I'd use either seaweed extract or fish emulsion rather than chemicals.

    You did say any information appreciated... You'll choose your own path but I'd recommend you don't be seduced by the chemical fertilizer companies unless you aren't really concerned with the health of the soil & the planet. You're not really at their mercy unless you don't mulch & look to organic fertilizers such as compost.

    I'm fairly certain this post will be deleted by GW within minutes of my posting but in the interests of one gardener to the next, I hope you take to heart the suggestion that chemicals aren't necessary to sustain a perennial garden. Healthy soil is sufficient to ensure healthy perennials so long as their water & light requirements are met.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    10 years ago

    I'm fairly certain this post will be deleted by GW within minutes of my posting

    ==>>> based on what... ??? never in 10 years.. have i seen such ...

    personally i never plant in august ... just too much stress.. hot days.. hot nights ...

    i would HOLD OVER pots until sept.. when nights cool.. so the plant can recover at night.. from the onslaught of day ...

    as noted.. i NEVER fertilize a stressed plant.. and a recent transplant is stressed by definition ...

    i would NEVER use a time release in fall.. as plants are supposed to slow down in fall.. not be going full bore ... but i am z5 ... ground freeze... and there isnt much time left by 9/1 ....

    finally .. except in the most barren of soil.. as noted.. plants dont need all that much...

    and i sum that up by saying.. they are plants.. not children.. they dont need to be fed ...

    it really is all marketing hocus pocus... that such is requisite ... especially on a repeated basis over the years...

    all that said.. a little .. VERY LITTLE.. of this or that .... is usually not a problem... but there really is no reason for high priced stuff ...

    ken

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    10 years ago

    Agree - don't fertilize newly plants perennials and mulch well with organic matter (shredded bark or chips from the nursery will work just fine if you don't have any compost or leaves).

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    gardengal, gardenweed, ken and mxk3
    Thanks so much for your advice. To make sure that I am understanding, allow me to pick out what appears to be key points (correct me if I err):
    1. Never fertilize newly-planted plants.
    2..Try not to use inorganic (chemical) fertilizers. Ever.
    3. Mulch new plants with organic matter, such as compost or leaves. Shredded bark and chips/nuggets will also work.
    4. May want to hold off planting until cooler temps in September.
    As so often happens in life, good advice prompts more questions. (Reminiscent of 'no good deed ever goes unpunished.) : o )
    1. It sounds as if I should mulch these newly planted plants with compost rather than fertilizing them. I always assumed that compost was considered to be one of the best organic fertilizers (and I mulch my permanent plantings with it each spring). If I use compost, aren't I going against the no-fertilizer rule for new plants?
    2. It happens that I have a large bag of shredded leaves which I held over from last fall. Would these also be considered to be an organic fertilizer? If so the same question applies: should I apply the leaves to the new plants at a time when they should not be fertilized?
    (Just a thought. I may be way off base with the mulching vs. fertilizer thing. I've always thought that the minerals, etc. from the compost, when used as a mulch, were gradually absorbed by the soil and then on to the feeder roots. Even though this was a slow process, I've always considered it to be 'fertilizing'. If this is not true_ if mulching is not considered to be a manner of fertilizing_ accept my apologies for my faulty thinking and ignore questions 1 and 2.)
    3. Ken, you suggested holding the pots over until temps have come down. That may be a month or more from now. I have never had much success when doing this. In the past, I may find I can't plant right away. So I put it where it can get some morning sun and feed and water it, according to no particular schedule. I'm obviously doing something wrong. (My main concern has always been to keep the roots from staying too wet.) Can you and the others offer some advice about feeding, watering and sun exposure when holding over new plants?
    Again, thanks to all of you.

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    10 years ago

    I use leaves all the time as mulch. Stuff like that isn't a fertilizer, per se, is a soil amendment as it decomposes and is slowly brought down into the soil by worms, insects, other natural forces. But yes, in a roundabout way it is a "fertilizer", as it makes the soil healthier/feeds the soil, which in turn supports good plant growth.

    I use non-organic fertilizer - primarily for annuals and vegetables, I want those to hit the ground running and leaping over tall buildings, they absolutely benefit from the boost. I use Osmocote, as it feeds all season, can't get any easier than that. I'll also use that on some stuff like lilles, which are very heavy feeders. I don't know if I agree with the advice re: don't fertilize perenialls at all. Some things bloom better when fertilized (lilies, roses, etc). In my soil, rugosas benefit from a shot of chelated iron or they get yellowed. There are always exceptions, there is no hard and fast do this or never do this.

    Of course you can use organic fertilizer, and I do use those, too and prefer them in the beds when I do use them (e.g. Rose-Tone) but I'm not going to say I never use non-organic. Overall, though, outside of a few specific plants such as those mentioned above, I don't fertilize perennials beds or shrubs, they don't need it - the soil has been built up over the years and supports excellent plant growth and health.

  • katob Z6ish, NE Pa
    10 years ago

    My soil is very thin and un-fertile so when I'm planting in the spring and summer I like to soak the root ball and loosen it a bit in a bucket of half strength liguid fertilizer. I skip that step in the fall. I also like to see my plants hit the ground running and the fertilizer seems to help significantly.
    Definitely use the chopped leaves, you can even work them into the top inch or two of soil. They're good organic matter but even better worm food, and a worm that eats well poops well.... Voila! Free worm castings all around your new plantings!
    Can I say worm poop? Sorry if that gets the post yanked.....

  • gardenweed_z6a
    10 years ago

    I'll preface my comments by admitting I don't grow roses. They've never been my "thing" and for whatever odd reason I have no interest in adding them to my garden. My primary goal is perennials that attract & sustain pollinators--bees, butterflies & hummingbirds--so that's where I focus my efforts. I'll qualify that by adding 'easy-care' to the equation. IMHO, roses are just too much work.

    I've kept perennials over winter by setting gallon pots up against the house foundation on my east-west facing breezeway. So far delphinium, coral bells, spirea, lady's mantle, balloon flower & rudbeckia, among several others, have easily over-wintered this way in my zone.

    One other concern is that plants may become root-bound. If you remove them from the pots and the roots are growing in a circle round and round the inside of the pot the plant is pot-bound. The roots need to be gently teased loose so they can grow in a more normal fashion.

    The general consensus is that chopped leaves work well as mulch but that isn't to say a heavy layer of fallen oak leaves is necessarily a good thing. I do allow for a layer of autumn oak leaves to blanket my perennial beds over winter but remove them when spring rolls around.

    I normally wouldn't feed any plant that's being held over for later planting--it encourages root growth when there's probably insufficient room/soil in the pot to sustain that growth. It's been my experience that if the plant is healthy, keeping it watered should normally be sufficient.

    I use bark mulch spread over corrugated cardboard to suppress weeds in my garden beds. It doesn't eliminate weeds but reduces the number of them I feel obligated to yank. In answer to your question, mulching with compost doesn't go against the 'no fertilizer' rule of thumb for new plants because it's natural and doesn't over-stimulate root growth as commercial or chemical fertilizers might do.

    The ultimate goal is a balance between what the gardener needs to do to promote healthy growth in his/her garden beds and what Mother Nature takes care of despite what a gardener might--rightly or wrongly--think is the way to go.

  • gardenweed_z6a
    10 years ago

    Why would anyone spend what few $$ they may have to spare on chemical fertilizers when there's an abundant supply of natural sources of nutrients available--for free--all around them? Once again I risk the wrath of the powers that be but will not hesitate to comment since this is a gardening forum where I would hope the exchange of ideas wouldn't be censured. Sadly, I speak from experience that it has been in the past.

    terratoma - I wish you the best garden you can imagine.

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    10 years ago

    What is with the paranoia about posts being yanked the last couple days? Yes, I know a post got yanked, but as far as I know, we don't know who yanked it or why.

    Enough already with the comments re: I know I shouldn't say this because it might get yanked --> either say it or don't. The added (unnecessary) verbiage is getting old and rather irritating already, and I highly doubt a post will get yanked because posters have a difference of opinion. Heck, a few years ago I told a poster to kiss my ***, and that never got yanked (said poster probably knows who he is LOL!)

    I fertilize my annuals and vegetables with Osmocote to promote heavy blooming and fruiting, and I'm lazy and am not going to continually fertilize throughout the growing season - once and I'm done, I can forget about it, it's time-released. What's the point of growing annuals if they're not going to bloom their heads off all season long?

  • katob Z6ish, NE Pa
    10 years ago

    Another thread goes OT.
    Start a new one if you want to debate organic vs chemical, but unless the OP wants more info I think they are in a pretty good place info-wise.

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    10 years ago

    OP summarized points in subsequent post, one of which was use of fertilizers -- seems OP wanted additional clarification.

    Regardless, one of the beauties of threads ---> they often go off-topic and turn into interesting and beneficial discussions. :0)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    10 years ago

    Just to provide clarification, pretty much any organic material - compost, grass clippings, leaves, etc. - can contribute nutrients to the soil but they cannot legally be called "fertilizers" (yes, there ARE legal restrictions involved with fertilizers), primarily because there is no easy way to verify their nutrient content, which tends to be very low, anyway. They are technically referred to instead as soil amendments.

    And using them as a mulch or topdressing in no way duplicates the effect of using any kind of fertilizer, either synthetic or organic (ALL fertilizers are chemicals!) - the process of nutrient release is different and much slower. So mulching with compost or similar is OK to do at any time - new plants or those well established - and actually a very highly recommended practice for any variety of reasons.

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hello again. You all have my thanks for your suggestions, advice and recommendations. I tried to distill the information and make some decisions. While there was a consensus on some matters, there were others which promoted differences_ healthy ones_ of opinion.
    An especially helpful fact was the difference between soil amendments and fertilizer. I'd always assumed they were pretty much synonymous and simply worked at different "speeds". Since they play slightly different roles, I now understand why one is favored over the other when planting perennials this late.
    FWIW: The reason I'm planting so late is for those hummingbirds and butterflies. The few bird feeders we put out several years ago attracted so many varieties of beautiful birds. This escalated to the point of building my own version of a "bird shelter"_ what some kindly neighbors refer to as the 'Bel Air Bird Rest and Recreational Spa'. 8' x 10', with a shingled roof, gutters and downspouts; hey, if I put up a hammock, a cooler, a fan and a few margaritas, I might join the birds! :0 ) Anyway, as an afterthought, I decided to put in a butterfly and hummingbird garden. Long story short, that's the reason for this last minute planting By the end of Monday evening's planting, I had lots of 'visitors' checking out the butterfly weed, agastache, salvia and others. And by planting now, they'll be loads of goodies for the birds, bees and b'flys next summer.
    Apologize for the rambling. Again, thanks for the help... and my little creatures thank you too.

  • karin_mt
    10 years ago

    What? That sounds totally cool. We need pics, please!

  • gardenweed_z6a
    10 years ago

    terratoma - I'm guessing you won't be disappointed with the pollinators that are attracted to your bee, butterfly & hummingbird garden. I certainly have enjoyed those that have frequented my garden beds the past half dozen years. This year has been especially rewarding altho' I saw my first monarch butterfly today which seems rather late where I am.

    Like you, I had certain opinions when it came to soil but I soon learned (thanks, in part, to this forum) that there's a vast deal of difference between soil amendments and fertilizer. I've always leaned toward organic gardening (thanks, Mom!) so tended to avoid chemicals. As the seasons pass, I'm more and more rewarded by that decision.

    My most recent goal is to have something in bloom from early Spring until late Fall. I may not be there yet but am gradually & happily getting there.

    Congratulations on your progress in your garden!

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    10 years ago

    Ok, now this bird spa we need to see! :0)

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hello all!
    Bird spa pics coming soon! Son-in-law and ex recently showed me how to load pics and video on this computer. They've promised to put them on this thread.
    If those darn hummingbirds will stay still longer, I'll get you close-ups.

  • terrene
    10 years ago

    Hi Terratoma, this "Bird spa" sounds interesting. Hope you can get it posted.

    Keep in mind that there are many species of birds that do not go to feeders. To attract them to your yard, you need to provide their natural food sources (insects, berries, fruits, seeds, etc.), water, and a variety of vegetation for cover and nesting. For a number of years I've been working on developing these resources on this property, and sometimes the yard is teeming with birds.

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hi Terrene
    You're so right; helpful people like you have taught me so much about birds over the last few years. I started out feeding them the packaged 'wild bird food' you can find anywhere. After learning that it contained a lot of 'fillers', a few years ago I switched to black oil sunflower seeds, white millet, safflower seeds and shelled peanuts. The one concession I did make to the retail stores was their woodpecker mix: the woodpeckers, blue jays, chickadees and titmice really love it. And the blue jays go wild those times I can afford some raw peanuts in the shell. But I haven't seen much attraction to oranges, bananas, apples, etc. so far. was really hoping to attrack a few orioles during their travels.
    I'm really going off topic! Thanks for the suggestions.
    gary

  • gardenweed_z6a
    10 years ago

    gary - I support your pursuit of feeding the native species that inhabit your zone. There's an enormous amount of information available on the Internet and you've only to do a Google search to learn plenty of tips for growing what attracts them. There's also great satisfaction & reward for observing the success of your efforts. I've spent a number of years researching what perennial plants & flowers attract the bees, butterflies & hummingbirds in my zone but it's only through conversations with knowledgeable neighbors that has tipped me off to some species' unique habits. I'll brag that over the past several years I've successfully achieved a garden that attracts many native pollinators.

    I'm fortunate there's a local garden center that carries multiple types of seed types that are specific to certain bird species so during the cold season I purchase food that sustains those that frequent my feeders.

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hi all!
    Has been nearly a week since I promised some pics of the 'bird spa and retreat'! My son-in-law finally came over and educated me regarding transferring photos from camera to the pictures folder on the computer. He even showed me how to post a pic on this forum. What he did NOT figure out was how to put more than one pic in a post. (And he told me that he was smart.) :o )

    As a result, I'm gonna put up a pic (below), submit it and send another post with another pic which will give you a different view.
    (This thread started so long ago that it may be old news by now. I may just end up creating a new thread entitled 'how 'bout this bird resort, folks....' or some equally innocuous title. Hope you see the pics here or there.And, again, thanks for all your help, advice and encouragement.
    gary

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    And now for a second pic (this from inside the 'spa', where the birds get their facials, pedicures and discuss recipes or football scores; I'm sure that they will be asking for a wet bar, next!

  • katob Z6ish, NE Pa
    10 years ago

    Holy cow! That's quite the resort, seems to be a little bit of everything there! I bet you can spend hours there watching the comings and goings.
    Have you considered what Terrene mentioned about the water and shelter? The birds might appreciate a little cover such as a holly or crabapple just in case a hawk or something shows up (plus there will be berries). I never thought to put it all under a roof.... I wonder if they feel safer there.

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hi Kato
    Thanks so much for your thoughts! I was so late getting the pics posted that I assumed no one would see them.
    It's difficult to see but there's a birdbath shown in the bottom center of the second pic. It looks like a gray basin supported by a metal rod. I haven't seen any baths taken (the spa must only attract those 'dirty birds') but many perch on the rim and dip their beaks. Further to the left (not evident in the pic) I have a group of winterberry hollies whose bright red berries persist well into January. Birds turn their noses up and won't touch them. The berries do look good when it snows. Of course, when the leaves drop (these are one of the few deciduous hollies), they don't provide much protection.
    Across the front of the house are lots of hollies which some birds have staked out. Odd that you mentioned crabapple. There is one about forty feet away, together with a Cleveland Pear. The crabapple is in sad shape and its days are numbered.
    After the holidays, the Christmas tree is laid against the base of the fence a bit away from the 'spa'. Have seen a number of birds flitting in and out during the next few months.
    Thanks again for your interest and your helpful comments.
    gary

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago

    Hi Gary, I love your bird spa! Lucky birds to have such a sheltered place and so many feeders. Do you use different seed in some feeders? I was interested in the fact that the birds don't take baths in the bird bath in your photo. I find watching them take a bath the most fun and I wanted to show you the bird bath I use, because it is always filled with birds taking baths, sometimes 10 at a time. It was very easy to put together, the bottom of the tall one is just a ceramic pot turned upside down and the top is a pot saucer that I ran across at a nursery sale. Didn't even realize it matched the pot I already had, until I got home. The one on the ground is sitting on two flat rocks and is just a large plastic pot saucer. It seems to be just the right depth even for sparrows and the robins, which have to be the cleanest birds out there, take baths multiple times a day. I suppose because they are always digging up worms. (g) I think the size and shape of the saucers is what entices the birds to take baths.

    I will take the ceramic in for the winter, but have a second plastic one that can stay out all winter and I haven't quite figured out what I am going to elevate it on, yet.

    Thanks for the inspiration!

  • ynot
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    And Hi to you, prariemoon
    Talk about inspiration! Your use of the pots and saucers is ingenious; I would never have thought of it. With your permission, I'm going to borrow your idea; I have some similar pots (no matching saucers but I'll rig up something).
    Birdbaths I've used in the past (which the birds actually used for bathing!) seemed too deep for the little ones. So I cleaned up some rocks and placed them strategically in the birdbath; gave them something to land on without fear of falling in deep water.
    i keep the traditional hanging feeders filled with black oil sunflower seed and safflower seed, assuming only the cardinals would be attracted. As a special treat, I'll sometimes add some peanut hearts and shelled sunflowers. The feeders designed for woodpeckers are filled with a mix specifically designed for them. (This is the one premixed product I do buy and the woodpeckers love it.) I usually add some crushed peanuts to it. Of course, the titmice, chickadees, mockingbird and blue jays get their turns at it too. For the sparrows, I put white millet in the platform feeders. Finally, I have a thistle seed sock hanging out for the goldfinches.
    Unfortunately, it seems no one has informed the various birds what they 'like' and 'should' be eating. My cardinals often gorge on the millet while the sparrows and goldfinches can be found more often than not at the platform feeders! As imposing as the grackles appear, they're usually well mannered, allowing the smaller birds equal time at the platform feeders. And occasionally, a cute little wren will venture to a feeder, take a few pecks, realize that the millet is not insects and quickly leave.

    And then, there are the doves. Ah yes... They will eat anything. As big as they are, a few have impossibly turned into acrobats, hanging nearly upside down to get at one of the hanging feeders. And they're the only bird that has shown any aggression, always at other doves..
    The hummers are the true acrobats; have seen three at the same time and assuming that's all there are... hope I'll attract more next year.
    Apologies for being long winded ...can't seem to learn any other way.
    gary

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago

    Hi Gary,
    I canâÂÂt take credit for the upturned pot, I canâÂÂt remember where I got the idea, but it wasnâÂÂt my own invention, but feel free to borrow that idea, I think you will enjoy it. The saucer on the top is more shallow and the small birds use it the most.
    Rocks work too, good idea.

    We use black oil sunflower and safflower too. I put the safflower in the one feeder we have that is not squirrel proof, because they seem to be much less interested in safflower. Once in awhile we will add thistle. Doves are one of our favorites but because of the squirrels I donâÂÂt have a platform feeder. I used to get a lot, when I had corn on the ground, but I stopped doing that, out of caution about bringing rodents into the yard. We still see a pair or two of doves over the seasons and they manage to pick up enough under the feeders.

    No hummers here yet, but I will try again in the spring to put out a feeder. Sounds like you have a lot of fun watching all the birds. I wonder if you ever do the bird count that the Audubon Society organizes every year? I would be curious how many birds your Spa attracts.

    No apologies needed, I usually have more than enough to say too. (g)

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