|
| I was wondering about peoples tactics for establishing perennials in a dry area outside where hoses reach. Most of my focus is in land restoration of a valley. I have cleared a lot of cedar (large yearly chore) and I am looking at about twenty small trees and native perennials that I need to put out this fall once it cools down to diversify the woods. Usually, I back pack water out and water into a hallowed out area. This has been not as productive as I like. Ollas are a mexican irrigation system of clay pots dug into the soil. They sweat water and theoretically can be filled once a week. These ollas are not very cheap and I need many. I have seen two clay garden pots glued together with guerrilla glue and silicone caulk as a solution. I do have some old pots but not 40. The redneck ollas is a a gallon jug with a small nail into it and leave it there to drain at a drip ( dug into the soil, or not).. That is a trip or two to the recycle center and dig through their trash cans.Yes , I am a cheapskate. Another tactic is to dig a hole and insert a PVC pipe with some holes in it and back fill around it . I am to fill that with water and that gets the water deep down. That might be less unsightly than a myriad of gallon plastic jugs. It is still a lot of work since I will drive my car back with a large 10 gallon container of water and walk the jugs up and down the slope(50' drop) to each perennial, or haul a watering can down. Thank god it is downslope on the full journey. I am good at forgetting and procrastinating on this chore since it is usually in the heat of the summer. A mañana. I water to establish for one year and then they are on their own. Do others have a tactic for similar problems? Some of us have gardens larger than our resources and "available staff". LOL |
Follow-Up Postings:
|
- Posted by lazygardens PhxAZ%3A Sunset 13 (My Page) on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 15:01
| The best time is right at the start of the summer rains, or fall rains. Carefully select your planting site to be where rain will accumulate, and make a bit of a swale to hold the water. Mulch - lots of mulch! I would run a temporary distribution system down the hill, connected to a one or more barrels, and dump water in the barrel at the top of the hill. |
|
| Wantonamara, I do something similar. I usually don't have to cope with your normal level of dryness (mine is ameliorated a bit by being farther east), but I carry 5 gallon buckets of water out to the fencerow I'm working on (about 150 feet out of hose reach). I will finish my initial plantings this year and hope that things will be mostly self-sufficient next year and will strew their seeds themselves without my intervention. I would probably use the milkjug approach...except that cheap milkjugs don't last long in the sun. In only a few weeks the plastic turns brittle and will develop holes or just shatters(ask me how I know this...lol). For a somewhat longer term (but still cheapish) solution, I think I would do the pipes, but you would probably need to do multiple passes on each to adequately water (based on volume). |
|
| Wantonamara, I've been using milk jugs, buried next to the plants. One jug for smaller plants, two for bigger ones. We've had them in the ground since early June when we planted several shrubs and perennials in our open space. We also have several hoses which allow us to water up to 200 ft away, but it is really heavy and dragging it isn't a lot of fun, particularly when it catches on rocks or cactus. DH has been digging trenches and says he wants to run irrigation pipes. This probably won't work for your acreage but we only have an acre and the driest part is closest to the house. I'm hoping that once I get through the first year, everything will survive on rainfall with supplemental water only in case of dire drought. Cheryl |
|
- Posted by wantonamara 8bTx (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 1:11
| I am talking about 800'-1500' of fairly rugged brushy woods and not a very good path from the closest hose bib to the planting area. I can drive a bit closer on a road that skirts my land, maybe 300- 400' with a drop from the road. I have picked an area that is close to a small dry wash in a level spot on the slope for some, the dead bottom of the valley for some , and by a long ridge rocks that holds back soil. I don't know how deep I can dig because this is a limestone slope. I am leaning towards doing the buried milk jugs Lazygardens, That does not sound like too lazy to me to set that up. It does sound like I would need a fair amount of money to set this up over the area that I am talking about. The tanks around here are not cheap. It might be something to think of if I see a used tank on Craigs list. The 20 trees will be spread over a 4 acre area. I will be piling the plantings with lots of native leaf mulch and cages of brush to keep the deer off of the babies and to hold in moisture.. I am hoping for September rains with this weak El Niño. August rains here only come with tropical action and so far , non of that. Cheryl, Thanks for making me think about the Numbers of jugs per plant. How many holes did you put in your jugs? My distance will be too long for hoses I think. It would probably would still be cheaper than the barrels. I might be able to run some PVC pipe down the valley and have a hose up to the plants. HMMMM. I would have to cover it with leaves and dirt to keep it from freezing on that one or two bad nights of freeze. The pipe is probably cheeper than… maybe I should re think this. I will get the milk jugs and start planting and watering and then see what I can do about getting the water to the milk jugs. I like to walk in my woods but it does get old when it is 100 out there. I might not need the hose till next summer when it heats up.. So far I have Garrya ovata, Escarpment black cherry (Prunus serotina var eximia), White bee bush (Aloysia grattissima), lots of baby penstemons, yellow texas Buckeyes ( Aesculus pavia var flavescens naturally occurring hybrid with A. pavia var pavia), Elbow bush, evergreen sumac, Retama, Scutelleria drummundii and Salvia romeriana, Salvia penstemonoides ( they are native to this area but not right here). I am collecting a bunch of flame leaf sumac seed from the area to drop back there. I also have a bunch a seedling Nolina lindheimeri and Nolina texans. A whole bunch of Liatris seed will be going on the slope. The seed planting is more of a sprinkle it on some loosened soil, stomp on it and pray for rain. An act of faith. You guys make me feel like this is doable…. but when I list it all out in writing, it looks like I am planning on too much and I should revert back to doing things in stages. |
|
- Posted by ken_adrian MI z5 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 11:13
| i think the key is timing... and wonder why you wouldnt do it in winter.. for an even cooler season ... i am asking.. as this MI boy has no clue about z8... let alone TX in winter .... have you dealt with your local county extension office on this whole project??? .... you never know where you will find the idea that helps.. but peeps often forget the LOCAL sources.. when cruising the WWW i may have missed it... but are these babe plants.. or mature large plants .. the question being.. are we just trying to work past the short transplant shock.. or are we trying to grow babes over an extended period????? .. the water needs of each.. are significantly diverse... i dont know if a larger plant needs a whole year of watering as you suggest ... shouldnt they be rather settled in by spring ... perhaps only needing water in the severest of droughts????? man you work hard.. lol.. i wish you luck ... ken ps: what cedar are you removing.. the famous J viginiana.. that everyone wants to tell me.. is NOT invasive ??? ... if you are calling a juniper a cedar.. it surprises me.. seeing you around the name that plant forum so often .... but then i wonder what cedar is so invasive down there.... |
|
| Ken, part of why she's doing it now...is that the southwest monsoon (such as it is) is late summer. She may have planted in spring though...I don't know. Most things require a year to settle in with deep rooting here...that's our std. I've a degree in horticulture, but having grown up here, to me J. virginiana is a cedar (lol)...though I know differently. And DARN if it's not the most invasive thing I've ever seen! Just thought I'd throw my two cents in again. |
|
- Posted by wantonamara (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 12:22
| It is standard vernacular to call Mountain ash juniper and Red Berry Juniper 'Cedar' in Texas. It is tradition to exercise this misnomer every day here. WE chainsaw addicted humans are called Cedar Choppers. If anyone said Juniper Chopper you would get a blank stare. We say 'Mountain ashe Juniper' when we specify exactly what 'cedar' we are talking about so there is knowledge that Cedar is not Cedar. A small bunch of us will say Juniperus ashei, but that will really get blank stares from most. I have been called Assinine presumptivus for using Latin names casually out here in the boonies. We traditionally mispronounce Spanish and English names of towns with abandon also, but that is off topic... I do not eradicate J. ashei, I thin out small trees from under prized trees like Madrones, red Oaks (anything other than J.ashei) and trim up the gangly octopuses into trees, and get the woods out of its monoculture scrub form . The woods are no longer controlled by decadal forest fires so I do it.. The J. ashei will crowd out live Oak groves. I leave most of the slash behind to help build soil. My husband hate the mess. We have huge downpours and that really washes away the soil especially if one thins the canopy. Nature rewards a mess. I am going into old areas that I trimmed in the last few years , and inserting trees and understory bushes, perennials. I am starting the planning now because September is our second wettest month and , darn if I am a bit slow. October is the recommended month for planting trees in the GARDEN. I would not exactly call this a garden. The ground has cooled off a bit by then. We have had 100F in October but it does not stay up there. We had zilch in the rain department after October last year till late April in Central Texas. One wants to get these roots well established before the next big heat comes. Timing is hard here. I have been to several seminars on land restoration put on by the Bamberger Ranch and the county. I am no expert. I am thinking of taking the Master Naturalist series of classes. I also have a biologist that helps me work on a plan. He is coming out in October to write up a 5 year plan. I often don't do what he says. But mostly. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Bamberger Ranch
|
| I did (and am still doing) some of the same kinds of things you are talking about, and have a couple ideas you might find valuable. First, my furthest planting are probably 1800 ft. from a hose bib; way too far away for me to run hose or pipe. I did carry water for a while, but I then tried 1/4" diameter drip tubing as a low-flow alternative pipe. 1000 ft. of this stuff weighs probably 3 or 4 pounds, costs about $30, and it is about as easy to move around as twine. I don't get a large amount of water at the outlet, but I get about 20-25 gph, which means I can work on things while the hose is watering one thing, move the hose and then continue. This stuff is really a time and back saver. It does not get damaged if frozen (I use it in my outdoor beds for years at a time), and is cheap enough that I can lay several long lines out so I don't have to keep moving it much. The other thing I found was very helpful was to build swales out of huge amounts of organic material to catch whatever rain we did have, and help improve the soil for the long term. For each bush or tree I put about 800 pounds of manure and wood chips around the area. Years later (some of this was done 21 years ago), the trees still seem to benefit from the improved soil environment even though I have not gone back to work on it once they were helped in their first year or two of growth. Renais |
|
| Wantonamara, we put a couple of jugs around bigger shrubs and single jugs next to smaller plants. So the NM privet (forestiera neomexicana) and sumac (rhus trilobata) and other shrubs got 2 jugs, while several agastaches, nepeta, grasses, etc got one. You can put more than 2 if you like. It's hard work digging these into caliche. Buried in the soil, they get water about 10" down so the roots are watered deeply. When the plants are established, you can pull the jugs out. I like Renais' suggestion of lightweight tubing. Will it stand up to abrasion by rocks or being pulled over thorny cactus and yucca? I started amending soil with composted manure but many Southwestern natives do better in the rubbishy lean soil that is everywhere. They can flop or rot if the soil is too rich. I make compost tea and water it into the plants that can benefit from it which isn't everything. We build berms out of rocks to catch water on slopes. It also helps with erosion. We have a bare trench which was dug down a 100' hill to connect the house to the gas line. After 2 years the only things that grew were tumbleweeds, thistles and yuccas. So this is the place I've been planting, to keep the weeds out and stabilize the soil which was washing down every time we had thunderstorms. We made small berms of rocks around each plant which helps the water, either from rain or from a hose, sink into the root zone. No one said this would be easy! Cheryl |
|
- Posted by wantonamara 8bTx (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 19:19
| THANK YOU Renais! Where do you get your drip tubing from? a regular agriculture supply shop in your area or an online outlet?.. Sorry to sound like such a ignoramus. I don't really do much irrigating at all. I need to go google that . . That is the kind of expense I can deal with.! so cool . It is unsightly enough that I can just leave it there temporarily. I am excited about that. I think I will still do the milk jug to slow down the drip and get it deep into the soil..Thanks. I have been working doing woodworking today and googling researching a weird plant I found in ancient barbwire enclosure.. I think I found a rare orchid on my land yesterday . A Hexalectris nitida. That took awhile on the computer. But I am so excited. This is a great example of how putting a question about arid perennial "gardening" outside of a regional form has gotten results. Everyone that responded was from a different region.I am not sure where your land is Renais!, but everyone else is from a different area. |
|
- Posted by wantonamara 8bCenTx (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 20:42
| Ken , I forgot to address one thing you asked. some of these are very small and some are one and 2 gallons. IT is recommended here to plant small and let them establish. This is very rocky soil and they need to find their way through the rock with not much topsoil. Everything is slow here. The only thing that is not slow is CEDAR. |
|
| Yes, larger sizes tend to just wind their roots about the potting mix and hardly grow into the native soil...thus they don't get water-wise and efficient...and first drought...bye bye big plant. I noticed that myself without anyone giving me advise, in Oklahoma. I could do better with 2 1/2 inch pots of plants than gallons. |
|
| Yes, larger sizes tend to just wind their roots about the potting mix and hardly grow into the native soil...thus they don't get water-wise and efficient...and first drought...bye bye big plant. I noticed that myself without anyone giving me advise, in Oklahoma. I could do better with 2 1/2 inch pots of plants than gallons. |
|
| I buy my tubing at Drip Works (see link), or at Home Depot. Drip Works often has sales that are very good, and sometimes include free shipping as well as discounted merchandise; signing up for their e-mail is valuable. I see the tubing I use is now listed at $50 for 1000 ft. I live in an area of the SW with lots of cactus, tumbleweeds and assorted other hostile plants. The black 1/4" tubing can be moved around the ground without undue concerns about it being punctured (at least not often!). I am not sure a plant has ever punctured a tube. However, on occasion I'll get some animal that figures out there is water in the line, and will bite it; it isn't hard to fix with the tubing couplers. If you plan on doing work in the area for a while, you might want to run a line from your hose bib most of the way with 1/2" tubing, and then use the smaller tubing at the end. The reduced pressure loss in the 1/2" tubing will mean you'll get much better flow rates, and the larger tubing is still not that expensive. Have fun! Renais |
Here is a link that might be useful: Drip works
|
- Posted by ken_adrian MI z5 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 10:18
| i was mulling this past night ... what about ... building an onsite nursery ... next to your water ... and growing the babes in native soil ... one of you base problems.. i suspect ... is that you are growing them in foo foo media.. and then worried when you are going to have to release them into the wild ... the stresses you are inflicting.. are... transport stress.. complete change of media/soil ... along with new sun patterns.. as well as the inability to water ... crikey ... think about it.. local nursery.. native soil.. proper time of year.. dig new hole.. walk to nursery.. grab plant on shovel.. whole root mass.. walk to new hole.. insert plant.. water to settle ... i am trying to think outside the box you are in.. due to growing them in pots off site ... another alternative.. would be to winter sow them.. directly into location ... scratch out a furrow.. and spread some seed.. and let ma nature do it all.. in theory ... none of this stuff should ever need water ... except for the method you have chosen ... wouldnt it be easier to carry in a little chicken wire.. to protect a short row of seedlings.. than the way you are thinking about it all ... you might need to drive in some stakes.. and cage your nursery ... so be it ... think outside your box .. something tells me there has to be an easier way to do it ... ken |
|
| Well, if you had infinite seed, I'd do Ken's broadcast approach. But usually seed is hard to come by, or quite expensive for our natives. I think the problem is that if you sow directly in situ, the pests and wildlife eat the seeds, the young plants, etc, before they get a chance to be able to recover from the browsing. I use this methodology to get a few flowering plants into place...and let them then produce and sow seed for future generations. |
|
| I tried broadcasting seed last fall when a gracious friend sent me a huge box of seed from her garden. My yield was 0%. Not a single seed germinated. As dbarron says, seed is eaten by ants, birds or other wildlife. I also tried seed balls, balls of mixed seed, compost and native clay soil mixed with a little water to make a small mud ball. I threw out dozens of these in June, before the summer rains started. I see these all over our open space, as pristine as the day I made them. Over time, they may break down and germinate if the ants, birds etc don't get them first. I've had better luck sowing seed in jugs, then planting out the young seedlings. These have to be protected from the rampaging rabbits and deer but at least I have some results to show. They have to be watered for the first season at least. I hope if they come back next year, they will survive on rainfall. Wantonamara is in a different region from me so her situation may be more suited to direct sowing. Renais - thanks for the link. DH said he was planning on this once he has irrigation established in part of the open space. Nice to see another Southwesterner on the forum. Cheryl |
|
| I am doing exactly that, Ken - establishing nursery beds onsite to sow seeds direct then transplant. I have no supplemental water at all so transplanting has to be done in Autumn or at the latest, very early spring. I puddle my (small) plants in with as much water as the hole will hold, dump the transplants into the pool, kick the soil back over and hope. This works well for a number of perennials because although tree roots ensure my soil is very dry, they are also shaded and windproofed so transpiration is not too excessive. Large plants are a 'mare to establish - I have been placing seedlings which, under ideal circumstances would be potted on another couple of times, directly into the soil as tiny seedlings - they thrive with no additional irrigation. So, shade, resisting wind, size of plants and timing are all key components in my decision making. |
|
| If it were easy, and things would grow just because you plopped them down on the ground, what fun would that be ? We grow to cherish the plants we worked hard to establish, right ? :) Plus, just think of all the weeds that would also flourish right over the tops of the desired plants ? Hee, no, give me semi-arid for the maintainability aspect. I know that eastern woodland climates are much much more prone to weeds. We got between 1.5 and 2 inches of rain yesterday...I'm not carrying water to the fencerow naturalization project for at least a week. And everything is so happy. Too bad I wasn't constitutionally able to plant the allium stellatum, vernonia letermani, or habranthus tubispathus...I just couldn't bear to move pots of flowering plants into the row away from the house, till they finished flowering. In about a week, I'll be ready to plant the remainder...just as the soil gets dry enough to require buckets of water again (if no more rain). Oh, and I have seedlings of coreopsis lanceolata (yes that weed), and engelmannia peristenia to plugs in...they're growing by pairs in plastic Dixie cups. I drilled a hole through the stack of cups, and they made perfect 2-3 inch pots to grow the seedlings up to potential rabbit snacks (yes, even by the house, they've nibbled and not liked). They go sometime next month...I want to get them a little bigger before they face the wild world w/o me looking at them 2-3 times a day. |
|
- Posted by TexasRanger10 7 (My Page) on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 16:04
| What fun indeed. Agree with the perk about few weeds. But, since I am growing weeds on purpose maybe its not such a perk after all? I do cherish my wild weeds. Those big laundry detergent jugs make for less trips than the gallon jugs and the plastic holds up longer. Also you get the added benefit of building arm muscles and a chest workout. Its a lot of fun in the heat. There are those other fun spots other than where the hose won't reach which make plant establishment a major challenge that usually ends in failure or being rewarded with just barely surviving specimens. I am talking about slopes, even better, the ones with tree roots sucking the ground dry. You can water until tomorrow but it might as well be out of reach. I do try the forming wells to make a basin but it's a temporary "fix" that runs downhill inevitably. However much I water, its always bone dry the next day. I still advise dynamite as is the way to go in caliche. Either that or a big jack hammer. Just blast out a big hole, fill it with actual soil and you're there. Eezy Peezy. All thats left is lugging the water everyday. |
|
| I have a saucepan lashed to a long piece of timber dowel (10 feet) which I dip into the land-drain ditches.....but that is an acrobatic feat which involves clinging onto steep banks and many nettles. However, as emergency measures, it is entertaining in a weird way, especially manouevering the filled pan on the end of the pole into a bigger bucket. |
|
- Posted by TexasRanger10 7 (My Page) on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 17:37
| Working around cactus & agaves is similar. It works on improving a persons balance and coordination. I map out the safe places to step and have to get into contorted positions to weed with the BBQ tongs or pliers. Sometimes one leg has to be held in the air in a ballet position as I bend down to remove debris, a tree sapling or weed. I know I look "quite graceful" especially when crawling under the spiny bush cholla watching out I don't get a scalp or ear full of cactus spines. The shoulder is the worst or anyplace you cannot reach with tweezers when kissed by one. Usually I just hope no one is watching as the butt is cranked up in the air. I know what you mean about it being entertaining in a weird way and there is also that time spent working it out and gearing up for the moxie to do it. Its definitely a challenge. I am sure wantanamara can relate, we both have stories of being bit. |
|
| "Working around cactus and agaves" is guaranteed to trigger a lot of bad language as I impale soft body parts on spikes and needles. I mentioned needing body armor to plant agaves when I was at the nursery recently. The cashier told me that homeowners didn't buy or plant these, they hired landscapers to do it. Now she tells me.... Cheryl |
This post was edited by jadeite on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 21:55
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Perennials Forum
Information about Posting
- You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
- Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
- We have a strict no-advertising policy!
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.
Learn more about in-text links on this page here
