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| I have an 18" diameter maple at the center of my yard that I'm trying valiantly to plant around. This tree seems to suck the life out of the earth around it for about 6'. So far, the only things to survive are a pair of maple leaf hydrangeas and some ivy. Even they require almost daily watering when there's been no rain. Any suggestions for perennials that might thrive in this location? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by lisanti07028 z6NJ (My Page) on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 11:09
| Maples are renowned, if not infamous, for being almost impossible to plant beneath, due to extensive and shallow roots. How about putting your plants, whatever they are, in pots above ground? |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 11:29
| IMHO.. absolutely nothing will thrive.. though some things might battle ... visit the hosta forum with this question.. if you dont believe me .... and this is why ken
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 12:41
| Hosta, pachysandra, hellebores are some of the things that grow happily under my red maple. Grass does a decent job, though it has some shade issues. Then there is the flowering quince planted by previous owners that grows, but gets too much shade to bloom. The tricky part is getting things established. Thalassa Cruso recommended starting things off in a shallow cardboard box filled with soil. Something like a paper box lid. It isn't something I've personally tried, but it does sound good in theory. I'd show pictures, but the whole setup is bound to give Ken a heart attack. Imagine a large maple tree, about 15 ft from the house, surrounded by thriving groundcovers. |
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- Posted by GreenHavenGarden none (My Page) on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 13:17
| I'm struggling with the same problem. I have a mature maple (silver I think) planted at the base of my drive way right by my mailbox. Nothing will grow. I limbed it up/thinned branches and it gets great light but the roots form a mound about 15ft in diameter. It's so dry there grass would never work. I just put down about 2inches of compost and planted ajuga. Hopefully it's aggressive enough to make it there. I'd cut down this tree and start over if I could but the tree technically belongs to the town and they said no. I hope the next storm rips it down ;) |
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| In the past month I planted several Geranium macrorrhizum within a foot of a maple tree. These plants are renowned for thriving/surviving in dry shade. We shall see. |
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| Norway Maples are water sucking things.Nevertheless, it is worth trying the following plants I've had great success planting a few feet out from other maples over a 16 " diameter, hostas, epimedium sulphurium. The rihzomeous epimediums are the most drought tolerant, and the yellow ones are tough. (theres a successor to sulphurium that's supposed to be superior) Polygonum (solomon's seal), both 'regular" and tiny humile. And european ginger does great. They will need watering for two years. Please read the definitive shade gardening book "the complete shade gardener"....by.....George Schenk. It is at least 20 years old and invaluable. This is not theoretical and involves no irrigation systems....a real gardener with a real dry shade garden. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 2, 12 at 9:37
| i didnt mean to stop you from trying.. i was simply showing you what you are up against.. depending on the type of maple you have ... a pic of a leaf and the bark.. will get you an ID in the tree forum ... sooner or later .. you will find something that will grow ... i notice that those that claim success.. cant prove it with a picture.. lol ... if you are a 'plant and forget' gardener.. the tree will win.. what i do note on those that claim success.. they are near professional level peeps.. who are probably out there every day.. tending their plants ... knowledge is power.. and i gave you some knowledge.. PROVE ME WRONG ... but never give up ... ken
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Sun, Sep 2, 12 at 10:36
| No, it is more a function of having clay soil and rain. You do understand that we normally get about twice as much rain as you do. This year, I have no idea how much more. We've had a couple of dry stretches, but nothing terrible. I've only gotten out the hose for things in pots. |
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| Hey Ken, are you talking about me, who is late for work nearly every day because I'm "checking things out" before I get in the car and go, and five minutes turns into 30. And I keep a nail brush in the car and in the desk drawer at work b/c I( can't go into a nursing home with grubby fingernails? You were pretty pointed in your description about people who don't post pictures....it means getting a new battery for the camera, learning to take a decent pix,learning how to download, resize and spending more time inside at the computer instead of outdoors watering plants under the maples? LOL,MA. Ya, and I have too much time on my hands this morning when I should be pulling weeds.... BTW, there may still be some pictures of my garden somewhere on the web....that someone else took and downloaded! Marie |
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| Common violets and Oregon Grape came to my mind, as they will grow in dry shade. Here in Wisconsin the violets are everywhere in the open and under trees. When we lived in the PNW, Oregon Grape was everywhere under mostly conifers, but in dry shade. |
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| Rouge, thanks for the suggestion of Geranium macrorrhizum, which I already have growing in an inhospitable place where it never gets watered. It does OK without supplemental water so I will give it a try under a willow tree where my heuchera are starting to slowly shrink. I can rescue the heuchera and put them in a nicer neighborhood. Up until very recently we have never had a problem with tree roots because we had no trees. But now our 12 year old trees are starting to take shape and you can see the effects on the understory plants. All in all, I am very happy to have the trees and will find something suitable to go underneath them (even if it's just mulch and a pretty rock for an accent). |
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| Here are photos of Idabean's/Marie's garden, courtesy of Thyme2Dig, though since I was unfortunately unable to attend the swap, I can't tell you which of the many trunks is her maple. ;>) Regardless, her garden is clearly the work of an accomplished gardener! |
Here is a link that might be useful: Idabean's garden
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 2, 12 at 15:13
| Maples are not unique in having a dense surface root system and a large, rain-shielding canopy that makes underplanting tricky. Here in the PNW, we have many immense native conifers that have the same characteristics, as well as bigleaf maples that put other eastern maples to shame with their spread root systems. Regardless, one can always find something suitable to underplant with provided you are looking for plants that tolerate dry soils and varying degrees of shade. Several classic dry shade plants have already been mentioned - epimediums, Oregon grape (Mahonia sp.) and Geranium macrorrhizum. But there are lots more - lamium, pachsyandra, various ferns, gladwin iris, hellebores, Euphorbia robbiea, fernleaf dicentra, columbine, monkshood, brunnera, etc. Start with small plants and provide extra water and nutrients until they become well-established. George Schenk's book is an excellent resource - if nothing else check it out at the library. |
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| It also depends on the type of maple you have. In the front I have two large Japanese red maples and both have a large pachysandra planting that surrounds them. In the back, my backyard is bisected by a Norway and two silver maples. These are seventy foot trees and the roota are at the surface.. My solution for the back is to let the groundhog have the run of the place. 8-) |
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| even better than G.maccrorhizum is G.nodosum - and benefits from nice glossy palmate leaves too (as above, so below). Agree that some epimediums are worth trying - E.perralchicum is a good yellow with vivid flowers. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 10:10
| one of the tricks.. is to not make it all apparent to the tree ... do not till .. do not amend ... do not water or fert individual plants ... and start small ===>>> every root you cut with a shovel.. will immediately put out new feeder roots.. if you amend.. or fert only the plant.. then the new tree roots will immediately invade the planting hole ... and a 50 foot tree will out compete a 3 inch plant ... so dig a small hole.. insert plant.. and BROADCAST all water ... and frankly.. never fert under the tree ... its not that it cant be done.. its just that it will be hard to do well .. quickly ... if you put a couple of inches.. of compost.. or good soil under a large aggressive tree.. by the end of the season.. it WILL!!!! fill it with roots ... been there.. done that ... ken |
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| I'm surprised no one has suggested cutting the maple down. That will immediately correct the dry shade condition and open up a wider range of possibilities. Especially if it's a Norway or red maple.... Yuck :) Epimedium is the only thing I have in dry shade that actually looks good right now. Vinca minor isn't too bad either. Sometimes Christmas fern will find a spot it likes, worth a try although I don't like it's sometimes floppiness. Good luck! |
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- Posted by onthebrinck 6 Central New Jersey (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 11:39
| OP here: I love the idea of cutting down the maple!!! I'm being sarcastic. But it reminds me of my neighbor, a dear old lady, who absolutely hates trees, and particularly another maple that borders our property (on my side). She uses every opportunity to tell me to cut it down, and I always respond the same way --- NO!!! Of course, her yard looks like a tennis court, and the dogwood that also borders us looks like a laser has cut every branch that dared to cross the property line. |
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| I *have* posted pics of my beds which are under as well as in close proximity to mature maples - which I did at one time because I got PO'd that it kept being insinuated that it couldn't/shouldn't be done. Do a board search and you should find the post somewhere. Yes, it is possible, but know what you're up against and how to deal with it. Some things are going to establish more easily and perform better overall than others, so do your research first. Use planting aids like spin-out bags or heck even planting in a very large garbage bag or plastic-lined hole, use water-absorbing crystals - I've done all the above with very good success. It's a PITA to get plants established under mature maples, whether you're planting shrubs or perennials, but if you can get past the first couple seasons and get them firmly established, the plants should be fine. If I have time later today, I'll go out there and take new pics - just because I'm in a mood today and want to prove a point :0p |
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| kato, personally I would love to cut my Norway and silver maples down. I love trees, but these are invasive, crappy trees imo. The silver has weak branches and at the end of every winter, my backyard is littered with debris. Unfortunately, the cost of removal of seventy foot trees is prohibitive. |
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| I planted zebra grass last year and it is doing well. Barberry planted itself. A guara is thriving, the rest of my plants are doing nothing or dying. It is frustrating to start digging a hole only to uncover a root! Ken, thanks for the info. I didn't realize I was enabling my maple to keep plants out. WOW, Idabean, What gardens! How long have you been doing them? |
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| Thanks, judyhi. At least 20 years. the kitchen in the house was at least 15 years old when we moved in, and I spent any extra money on the garden, so now I have a 35 year old kitchen and a nice garden. Where would I rather spend my time?! Now the kids are grown up and I am really really sick of cooking I still don't see the point in remodeling the kitchen.....but there's another section of the garden I want to work on..... Lots and lots of good ideas here. About 10 years ago we began removing every single Norway Maple from the property. There were dozens from seedlings (of course) to 20 year old ones. Gone were the thousands of samaras (seeds) and hundreds of seedlings. Gone...the awful litter of branches and smothering leaves. If one can't or won't take down the Norways, I really would not put much time,effort or money into planting under them. P)ut in the toughest, fastest spreading groundcovers....get them free from swaps or yr neighbors. Keep after those seedlings. But if they're near your house, those roots will find your water or sewer pipes and you'll end up with a plumbing problem and still have the crap tree. I'm not sure how hardy that other geranium n. is. But g. maccrorizome is very hardy, pretty, and can cover a large area quickly. But also easy to pull if it gets too enthusiastic and jumps the boundaries. good gardening! |
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| Geranium nodosum is hardy to zone 7 and the op's zone is listed as 6. The difference doesn't kill the possibility, though it might kill the plants in an open winter or particularly cold one. Generally, except for Anne Folkard which died on me 6 times,(:, I find perennial geraniums difficult to kill. It is a lovely plant, however, and I had a brief spasm of zone envy |
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| idabean wrote: g. maccrorizome is very hardy, pretty, and can cover a large area quickly. As you can see these 4 I planted about 6 weeks ago are in tough against this maple as they needed to be planted so close to the trunk. They have not increased in size in that time but have not 'shrunk' either. It is just an experiment. If none are successful I will likely put a couple of medium sized planter pots positioned on either side of the tree. |
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| rouge21, They look very good I think. You want them to be developing roots, not leaves at this time of year.If they live, next spring buy 3 more and they'll fill that space by next fall. Otherwise you have a two year wait to completely fill in. |
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| Thanks for the post 'ida'. "3 more next spring"?? I would have thought that *if* these 4 do survive the winter then for sure they would more than be able to cover the area in question sometime next summer. |
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| Rouge21 - It looks like by raising the soil level for the bed you have buried the root flare of the tree. ;>( This is asking for rot issues on your tree trunk where the bark is buried. Can you pull away the soil from the trunk so your bed is a donut? |
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| nhbabs, it would appear that should be an issue but this raised 'collar' around this maple has been present for probably 5 years with no ill effect on the tree above. (I kind of wish something would happen ;) for as many of you have noted, maples can be so difficult to work with). |
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| I have big Norway, Silver and Sugar maples in my yard. Yes they are generally difficult to grow under, but it does depend on the species. Norways are non-native and terribly invasive in our area; they have allelopathic roots that inhibit the growth of other plants; and extremely dense shade. Awful trees and I've removed many of them - only one big one left! Silver and Sugar are both native trees, so technically they CAN'T be "invasive". Silvers are difficult trees to work with, since they suck the living moisture out of their root zone; invade any wet areas such as drainage zones and septic pipes; and they can be weak wooded and suffer significant storm damage. But they are a SUPERLATIVE wildlife tree, so good to have if they're set back away from human civilization, lol. In my yard, Vinca minor, orange ditch lilies, and surprising, the native perennials Blue wood aster and white wood aster, Symphyotrichum cordifolium and S. divaricatum, do very well under my maples! |
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| There are two huge, 35-year-old silver maples dominating the gentle slope in my back garden. . .many of the major roots are well above ground (I think they look GREAT!) creating perfect little pockets into which to tuck plants. After 20 years of gardening here, I managed to get the following plants to thrive and survive (sorry Ken!) in the ten feet surrounding the base of each tree: Vinca minor, gallium, hostas, epimedium, liriope, viola labridorica, Carl |
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