hey

welcome...

as to specificity.. get some pix posted.. we can name things for you.. and be more specific as to advice ...

what kind of leaves.. and how are you going to process them ..???

maple can be problematic.. unless ground somewhat ...

whats your soil???

i would say you are a bit early.. but in general.. you can start chopping things back ...

ken

"A home I bought in January has a large perennial garden." Congrats!!

"Of things that are past blooming, can I cut them back now in preparation for winter (like phlox, shasta daisies)?" If there are still leaves, it's best to wait, they are still growing, but the flower stalks could certainly go.

"Can I mulch them with leaves? I will have a lot of leaves soon." Absolutely! That's an awesome plan. Rake 'em on, or gather/chop with bag on mower.

"Then in the spring I would mulch with regular bark mulch. Can that go right on top of the leaves?" Absolutely, though the leaves will likely be gone, decomposed and eaten by worms and other decomposing critters.

"And would it be best to wait until spring to transplant, and divide things..." You may want to take a look at The Well-Tended Perennial Garden by Tracy DiSabato Aust. Some things are better disturbed in spring, some in fall. Library should have it, to decide if it's something you'd like to buy or not.

Personally, I would wait a month. The plants need to build up root reserves for next year. Unless you like things neat, I would leave the plants overwinter. They provide interest and serve as snow catchers. A hole in the snow where a nice flower bed flourished is kind of sad.

I would shred the leaves with a lawn mower and if possible leave them in bags overwinter, then use them as mulch in the spring.

It's a personal thing but I'm not partial to bark mulch and God forbid, colored mulch. Regular bark mulch strikes me as wrong. I'd sooner use grass clippings as top ups for mulch.

I tend to follow what Nature does.

I have submitted many pictures over the summer to the "Name That Plant" forum. They include: centaurea montana, phlox paniculata, clematis automne, hydrangea paniculata, many peonies, asiatic lillies, lamb's ear, oriental poppies, crocosmia, columbine, oenothera, listris, lilac, lily of the valley, etc.

I have 2 large maples and 2 large oaks. I can go over them with a lawn mower first if it is recommended. I would be nice if they were shredded enough to decompose by spring so the regular mulch can go right on top.

I just bought the book via Amazon. It has a 5 star rating with 82 reviews! And it's their #1 seller in books on perennials. That's gotta be a great book. I can't wait to get it.

I will wait to chop things down at least until I read more specific information about what I have. Thanks

In the evening I'd say a little "Thank You" prayer to the previous owner. You have been given a gift.

And full marks to you for being willing to learn and continue a beautiful part of your home. I've driven past homes with great flower beds that, upon new owners, were transformed back into the mundane lawns, like all the others, no personality.

YW. Mother nature puts the leaves on in the fall, but I don't begrudge anyone their preference for what they want to look at all winter. I've never bothered to trim plants in the fall, they're going to be under leaves anyway, (and snow, when I lived in OH.) But I realize I wasn't clear about when I'd put leaves on, which would be when they fall. Since it's not really possible to do until they fall, didn't think the distinction was necessary, but it's probably best to not assume anything is understood. About the same time as when the leaves fall, frost should knock the foliage back on the perennials, handy. There's really no reason to remove the perennials' leaves just to add others, IMVHO, mother nature does that with frost.

Regarding transplanting and/or dividing, there is a kind of rule of thumb with perennials :-) If it blooms before midsummer (like the peonies), transplant or divide in fall. If it blooms after midsummer (like sedums or rudbeckia), transplant or divide in spring.

But the DiSabato-Aust book will outline essentially the same info :-))

you need to process leaves.. so that no piece is bigger than say.. your thumb nail ...

that is much more than just sucking them up ... and dumping them ... on the beds ...

when i used to do it.. i insured they were dry ... sucked them up.. put them in the street at the curb.. and went over them again.. and again.. and again ... until they were good...

that is what will disappear by spring ... big gelatinous gobs of maple leaves .. will be a problem ...

i would put upwards of 6 inches on the beds.. but NEVER directly on top of a plant.... it would settle in fall to 4 inches....

by spring.. there would 2 inches.. and by mid summer... gone ...

unprocessed maple.. can create a anaerobic mat... which will not allow air movement.. and kill everything under it ...

all of your plants.. since they wintered over w/o you last winter.. are fully hardy.. do NOT bury them.. they need nothing from you .... mound the leaves all over the bed.. but leave little craters.. around each plant ...

ken

Thanks so much for your advice and opinions.

I also philosophically agree that we can not do better than Mother Nature. I will let them die back on their own and mow the leaves the best I can. There was at least 4 inches of bark mulch here when I bought the house.

I also hate colored mulch. The "red" is awful. But after spending a few hours each weekend this summer weeding, it sure is appealing to mulch in order to lessen that task. I actually enjoy weeding (I find it meditative) but 3-4 hours every weekend was a bit much. Next spring I am going to start a bee hive so will absolutely not use any pesticides or inorganic pre-emergent. Mulch seems a better alternative, although I don't know if I will be able to get a guarantee that the mulch is organic and pesticide free.

" . . . so will absolutely not use any pesticides or inorganic pre-emergent."

I just want to add to the good advice you've gotten that you need to be sure to read all pesticide labels carefully, since some organic pesticides are harmful to bees.

Point well taken. I am a new member of a bee keepers club and will be advised by them every step of the way.

If you lay down corrugated cardboard under your bark mulch before you spread it, you'll reduce the # of weeds in your beds by a considerable percent. Recycled cardboard is generally available at your town landfill, local market or other retail shop. In addition to suppressing weeds, cardboard attracts worms. Worms = healthy soil without adding chemical amendments.

Another way to shred leaves is with a weed whacker in a garbage can.

You may find (like I did) that you will like shredded leaves so much that they will become your "regular" mulch. I used to put them down in fall and then use cocoa hulls in spring in the visible (i.e. front yard) beds, but now pretty much just use the leaves .

Also, I have gotten deliveries of leaves from landscapers when I just didn't have time to shred my own (with almost 40 trees, I have plenty of leaves, just no time to shred them!). These delivered leaves were never as finely shredded as I would have preferred. But I discovered that first year of using them that they really did break down a lot, and the worms really seemed to love them even more than my finely shredded ones. Had the biggest worms I ever saw! So as long as they are not on top of the plants, I think they work fine.

I also second the cardboard or newspaper under the mulch. It makes a huge difference, IMO.

On a personal note, I am very happy to hear that you will not be using any pesticides. Best of luck with your bees!

Dee

I use a lot of shredded leaves too. I don't shred them all, because my neighbor gives me all his leaves from their three mature Silver Maples. It works out well for both of us. He just blows them to the fence and then throws them over the fence into our yard. Silver Maple leaves are small enough to break down pretty quickly, Any leaves that fall on the lawn just get mowed over and the cut up leaves and grass clippings go on the vegetable beds.

I also use a lot of cardboard and like Dee, find it makes a lot of difference. I think the worms are much more plentiful in areas I've used it too.

No pesticides here either.

If one doesn't want to shred leaves, it's not necessary. I never do it unless using the mower to gather the leaves. I used to grab other people's bagged leaves when I lived in OH and never did anything but pour them on beds, about a foot to 18" high, always gone by spring. Folks don't bag leaves here, unfortunately, or I would do it still, never enough leaves, no matter how many our own trees throw down. For those who want to shred, that's great, but I hope nobody decides not to use this gift of nature because the shredding sounds like a PITA.

I use cardboard (under other organic matter) to smother grass but an established bed shouldn't need this step unless weeds were left unpulled. If grass is creeping in, the border/barrier could probably be improved. Pointing the mower chute away from beds if the grass has any seeds in it can be a lifesaver too.

We don't own any gardening chemicals either.

Pic of newest spot reclaimed from grass below. A few months ago, I laid cardboard, outlined with timbers, filled with lawn clippings, some peanut shells, pine needles, old contents of pots when repotting a few house plants, and material from the shrubs at the bank across the street when they were trimmed. (That guy knows I want him to put that stuff somewhere in my yard, he knocks to ask where each time.) It was a much taller hump of stuff but a lot of it decomposed by now, and I moved some of what was left to other spots that needed it.

By spring, I'll have a whole new bed to play with, except for a few bulbs I put in there recently where the grass was already dead when I started this. Virtually no effort spent (compared to digging up grass!!) The key is leaving it alone long enough (and covering it heavily enough) so the grass is truly dead.

"...Pointing the mower chute away from beds if the grass has any seeds in it can be a lifesaver too..."

O...M...G!! If only the lawn guys could get that through their skulls! I don't have a lawn service, but I do gardening for a few folks that do, and its a constant battle on this issue. I'm always imploring the homeowners to PLEASE ask the lawn guys not to blow grass clippings into the beds. It would save hours of time for me weeding out grass if they just drove in the other direction, lol. (I have to admit my experiences with this make me hesitant to use grass clippings as mulch or in my lasagna beds. My so-called lawn is defintely full of weedy grass and plain old weeds, and since my lawn service is my DH, who hates to mow, the grass is even weedier, so it doesn't go into my beds!)

FWIW, the shredding/not shredding of leaves may be a zone thing, or perhaps dependent on the type of leaves one has - as well as how many leaves. I have a yard full of oaks, and the leaves are huge and heavy, and if left on the ground as is, after a few snowfalls, are wet and even heavier. While I've never had any garden disasters if the whole leaves stay on the beds, my beds do perform better if they are not covered through the winter with whole leaves. Plus, IME, the shredded leaves decompose more easily and help the soil, while the whole leaves usually have to be raked off the beds in spring, (soaking wet and heavy) negating any benefit from leaving them to break down.

One year one of my deliveries of leaves from a landscape company included a load of japanes maple leaves. I loved them! As I mentioned earlier, the leaves were not that well shredded, but the maple leaves were small enough that they really didn't need to be - and added a nice red color to my beds as well!

With my +/- 40 trees, I get leaves up to the knees most years (depending on how windy it is, lol) and sometimes even higher where they accumulate in nooks and crannies - and garden beds. For me, this is way too deep to leave on the beds, so I rake them up and shred them and re-apply.

Purple, that's great that you have the bank's maintenance guy trained like that, lol. That must be a big help for your lasagna beds and compost pile!

Dee

That's an excellent point about oak leaves in general which are more slow to decompose than most other leaves. I do count myself as lucky that the ones in our yard have tiny leaves.

You're right, it is good to hear how things have gone in different places, and with different leaves. And I miss maple leaves, none of the trees in this yard are maples. For the tiny oak leaves that are present, they were much more slow to disappear at first than in the past couple years. I had to reclaim grass to do any gardening here, and the ground is hard as a rock where there is grass. The decomposition microbes and critters like worms are very sparse in most mowed areas, take time to establish a significant presence, and struggle if there is drought.

One can't create the forest floor overnight, but the leaves there are all decomposed each year without shredding or raking. This may be impossible to replicate adjacent to expanses of dry, lifeless lawn, but it's a lofty goal to try, one it sounds like every gardener here shares - trying to grow from the roots-up, not just from the top-down. That's awesome! Absolutely help the leaves get to their decomposed state sooner if possible, and one has the time, energy, tool to accomplish. The suggestions of how to do it are awesome. If there was only one way, so many fewer people would do it.

Like any composting endeavor, a variety of ingredients is optimal. Mixing green + brown = composting. Any OM whether green or brown will decompose, and whether in a pile or on a bed or just left to its' own devices. But for the most quick (and nutritionally diverse) version, one can't have just browns (fallen leaves) or greens. Browns stay brown and crispy - and there - for a very long time. The opposite would be a watermelon rind, a green. Put them both on moist, shady ground on a hot summer day, and within days, the melon rind will be gone. Without the ground to absorb the released moisture, it would have made a smelly anaerobic mess. Either way it will decompose quickly unless/until it runs out of moisture. In a bucket for example, there would likely be nothing solid left after 2-4 days. A leaf placed under the melon rind would show signs of decomposition after a couple days. The plain leaf by itself would not yet.

Using the mower to gather leaves mixes grass with them, which is "a green" (and is my fav stuff to have for a garden, besides actual compost.) There's no such thing as a bed that doesn't sprout something that needs to be pulled though, so I don't mind a very few grass sprouts, and really never know if they came from gathering grass, or if the birds dropped them there anyway. I sure didn't kill grass to pull or dig it out of the same spot again, and know nobody else did either. If there is any concern about major grass seeds, this may not go well, totally agreed!!

I have back issues and lazy tendencies on any garden maintenance activity that doesn't seem absolutely...

Back issues in our family too, so we've been doing passive composting. But I use that in the shrub and perennial beds or for lasagna beds while the leaves and grass clippings (the mower has a bag) go in the raised vegetable beds along with any kitchen scraps which I bury in the corners or in any unused space. I haven't had any trouble with grass seeding itself in the beds.

One neighbor has a London Plane Tree (or Sycamore?) and those leaves are huge and leathery. Those I take out of the beds and add to the passive compost pile.

Have either of you read the book, 'The No Work Garden' by Ruth Stout? I think it was first published in 1961 and it was my first exposure to not digging a garden and mulching for the soil. Definitely a classic, which had a big impact on the way I garden.

This post was edited by prairiemoon2 on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 13:41

purple, I miss maples too! When I grew up, my street, although in the middle of the city, was lined with maples, and the color in the fall was gorgeous. When I moved to my current house in August of the year we purchased it, I was so excited because now I was in the "boondocks" and was looking forward to glorious fall color from the seeming (to me!) forest on my property. And then I discovered that oaks are dull and boring, lol. Oh well...

Regarding shredded leaves - I have a flowtron which I love (other than the fact that it can't handle sticks) and always (rather negatively) compared other ways of shredding to the "consistency" (can't think of the right word) of those leaves shredded by the flowtron. Then one year my neighbor was cleaning out from under the row of hemlocks between our houses, using his ride-on mower, and he agreed to dump the shredded leaves by my compost pile. Holy moly! I could not believe how finely shredded they were! MY lawn mower NEVER shredded anywhere near as fine. My husband was goofing on me because I was so excited, lol. And my flowtron just doesn't hold the same charm for me anymore, lol. I still love it, but often think longingly of that pile of finely shredded leaves.....

PM2, I've not read the book, although I've heard of it and have seen Stout quoted and referenced often. I guess those of us who do lasagna gardening and compost, especially passively, and use natural materials for input would all agree with what she has to say. Maybe this winter I'll pick up a copy and actually read it through!

Regarding the use of compost in lasagna beds - PM2, am I reading your post correctly? Do you, like me, used half-finished compost in your lasagna beds? I do that all the time - my compost piles are fairly cold, and therefore decompose slowly, but I use a great deal of it as is to layer in lasagna beds, so it doesn't matter to me. Maybe one reason why I like my tumblers while many people don't seem to like them.

Dee

Dee, our mower does a decent job of shredding leaves, it's an electric. But I think the maple leaves are pretty easy to shred and especially if any Silver Maple leaves fall on the lawn. I love the look of the mixture of the chopped leaves and the grass clippings that come out of the mower bag. Which makes me smile at the small things that gardeners enjoy. Funny really, lol.

You would enjoy Ruth Stout's book, she had a good sense of humor and I found the book to be entertaining. At least that's how I remember it, it's been literally decades since I've read it.

And yes, my passive compost pile that is also under the canopy of a Maple takes so long to break down, that I often use it when it's half finished to start a new bed or use it to get rid of a section of lawn I am whittling away, using lasagna methods.

I once considered getting a compost tumbler, but I read so many negative reviews from people who use them, that I didn't. But you like yours?

I do. I love my tumblers. I got one off of craigslist for a great price. The second one was found by the side of the road - can you believe it?! - by a friend of mine, who drove home to get some bungee cords to bring it home. I told her I would have stood next to it and called for help, lol. No way I would have left that spot. But she came back and it was still there, and she took it home and tried it for a year and didn't like it, so gave it to me. This one is even better than the first.

The first one I have is an older model - the basic drum high up on a stand that is cube-shaped, if you know what I mean. The second sits on two triangular shaped legs, which makes it much lower - the top of the tumbler is about waist level, as opposed to over my head with the older model. The newer one also has bars inside it, which help break things up when tumbling. And the turning mechanism is easier as well. It's a smaller gear inside a larger one - I think of spirograph even time I turn it, lol, which probably just dated me, lol - but it is easier to turn.

Anyway, neither of these came with a manual, and I don't use them to "get compost in two weeks!" like the ads say. I just like them because they are enclosed, are easy to turn, and keep things on the tidy side. I don't have open piles to begin with, composting in a few black bins and a few converted garbage cans, so the tumblers are much easier to turn and unload than the cans and bins.

They are slow, but that's okay (and yet they are faster than the cans and bins). Someday I'd love to have a three-bin system, with nice big bays, etc. I sometimes drool over photos on the soil & compost forum, lol, but for now, the bins, cans, and tumblers work well for me. Especially since I use a large amount of the compost before it's completely finished.

Sorry, bonniejean, didn't mean to get so far off topic, but maybe this has been of some help to you as well.

:)
Dee

Thanks Dee for your experiences with the tumblers. I hadn't thought of looking on Craig's List either. Yes, sorry if we have gotten off topic. :-)