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| I was at the nursery today, and when I was checking out the butterfly bushes, I noticed that Dark Knight had insects all over them (including monarchs !!), which none of the other cultivars did, yet all the varieties were clustered in the same area. This begs the question: Are the newer cultivars (of whatever plant) being bred to be nectarless/pollenless? Someone mentioned this in another thread - sorry can't remember who. Is this what is happening? If so, this saddens me. Flowers are lovely for us humans to look at, of course - but other species DEPEND ON THEM for survival. BTW: I did buy a Dark Knight, I am absolutely enamored with the scent of butterfly bushes and have thoroughly enjoyed mine this season (before I had to dig them up for the landscaping...), what's one more. :0) |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 16:27
| mxk3, I bought what is supposed to be an 'Adonis Blue' Buddleia and that is a new cultivar, and I saw butterflies and bees on it this year. I also bought a 'Black Knight' this year because Woody recommended it and I haven't got it in the ground yet. I am looking forward to it. I also LOVE the scent! |
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- Posted by christinmk z5b eastern WA (My Page) on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 16:33
| BBB is an invasive plant in WA state, so being a sterile variety is almost a requirement to sell them here. I can't tell you if being sterile takes away their attraction to insects or not. Certainly sounds logical- a plant is sterile so it has no reason to attract pollinators for reproduction. |
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| The only place I've heard of a plant being intentionally pollenless is for cut flowers where you don't want pollen falling off the flowers and sullying up your tablecloth. I've seen this particularly for sunflowers. Aside from that, I've never encountered a plant being bred for a lack of pollen. In fact, many plants in the nursery advertise their attractiveness to bees, butterflies, hummers, etc., which clearly relies on the presence of nectar or pollen. |
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| Hmm, well maybe Dark Knight is just more attractive to insects than the other varieties that were there - ? . I have noticed butterflies and other insects on my Peacock butterfly bush, but interestingly, none at the ones at the nursery today. |
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- Posted by Gyr_Falcon Sunset 23 USDA 9 (My Page) on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 17:25
| I think it may be a side result of the breeding, not something they were trying to do. As what happens when double flowers no longer have the amount of fragrance of the singles, in certain plants. The plants may still attract a host of butterflies and insects in your garden; but if the more favored Black Knight is also close, they might prefer that one. Almost a cookies and ice cream are both tasty, but if I can easily choose, I prefer the ice cream kind of thing. |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 19:26
| I agree with that Gyr Falcon and I like that analogy. (g) |
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| Why do I keep calling Black Knight Dark Knight LOL! |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 19:35
| mxk3, are you a Batman fan? lol |
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| It's very likely the newer introductions are less beneficial to insects. Ornamentals are bred for color and bloom and sometimes the 'stuff' needed for successful pollination (such as nectar for attracting insects) is lessened or lost. Kind of like the cookie vs icecream analogy but also kind of like newer vegetable varieties that look nicer and are more productive but don't have the nutrition or taste you remember. It's the whole argument behind heirloom tomatoes and other vegetables. I remember once reading the same thing on zinnias. I forgot which strain was best at attracting insects but there was a clear winner. I'm not a big fan of the pollenless sunflowers. Most all the ones that sprout around my garden are from birdseed, and most all of them are pollenless. One problem is there's no pollen for the insects, a second is unless I've remembered to plant a couple regular seeds there's no pollen for pollination of the flowers. I end up with empty shelled seeds and the goldfinches are dissapointed (as well as myself!). I suspect the hybrid sunflowers are bred specifically so the seeds produce a pollenfree next generation. You can use the seeds for oil or birdseed, but whoever tries to grow them ends up with a field of sunflowers that won't pollinate..... They have to buy new seed every year from their supplier. |
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- Posted by sandyslopes z5 UT (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 2:43
| FWIW, I have what I think is a newer variety of buddleia, the Flutterby, butterfly bush, Blueberry Cobbler. It's very fragrant, and I've noticed plenty of bees and butterflies on it. |
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| There was an interesting thread on the Annuals Forum about some zinnias being more attractive to bees and butterflies because of the amount of pollen the flowers produced. I've been watching my zinnia beds this year and have noticed a real lack of insects visiting the flowers. Every once in a while I see a butterfly checking them out, but they don't stay long. Maybe there's nothing there that interests them? The zinnias I planted this year were varieties I've never grown before, so maybe that's the reason. In the past my zinnia beds were always butterfly and bee magnets. Kevin |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 10:15
| Kevin, I'm planning to grow Zinnias next year, I wonder what variety you grew? |
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| Uproar Rose - really pretty Polar Bear - kind of a so-so white Kevin |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 10:51
| So those two are less attractive to butterflies and bees, maybe? That's too bad because I was planning on getting that 'Uproar Rose'. I'm also looking at the Benary's Giants in individual colors, which I've seen on Johnny's Seeds. I know Terrene who gardens for butterflies, recommends State Fair. I haven't heard about anyone's experience with Benary Giants though. I may have to grow some for the butterflies and some for me. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 11:09
| thought of you the other day as i walked thru tractor supply and saw bushel baskets for 2.99 .. lol... my only thought on this.. would be comparing older blooms to freshly opened flowers.. at their peak ... perhaps the most fragrant.. and therefore attractive are the ones that just opened???? it would be a much simpler explanation.. that genetic degradation thru selective breeding ... and i always look for the simplest explanation.. because i am a simple man ... wait.. did i just say that .... ken |
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- Posted by linlily z5/6PA (jakey915@comcast.net) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 11:12
| I can tell you that Royal Red, Pink Delight, and Dubonnet are very popular with all the bees and butterflies here. Unfortunately, my Black Knight is way on the other side of the house and is not easy to see from the windows. I remember when I had BK at our last house, it was always covered in insects. The new owners quickly removed it - something about worrying about being stung by bees. I work around all of my butterfly bushes and the bees that frequent it are not the insects that sting easily. My husband was cutting grass one afternoon at the edge of our property next to a mixed bed of daylilies and irises, and he disturbed a ground nest of yellow jackets. Now that is something to beware of! All of these that I've mentioned are also VERY fragrant, |
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| Ken - all men are simple... LOL! |
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- Posted by echinaceamaniac 7 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 13:05
| OP is correct. Butterflies prefer the larger, older varieties. My Black Knight is covered. Blue Chip doesn't attract half the butterflies it does. |
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| Okay, I was back at the nursery today checking out the sedums, and the same thing was going on at the sedum bench. A couple cultivars covered in insects (Autumn Joy being one of them), others crammed right next to them with no activity, one of them being the one I wanted to buy, Pink Chablis. So I butted the flower head of a Pink Chablis right next to an Autumn Joy to entice them, and a few bees flew over to my side, checked out the flowers, and buzzed right back to the other sedum --> EVERY.SINGLE.BEE I have no idea what's going on, but something IS going on, be it preference or nectarless/pollenless flowers or what. I bought the Pink Chablis anyway. Eh, I have other sedum the buzzers go crazy over, it's not like they're missing out on anything at my place. But still... |
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- Posted by GreatPlains1 7OK (My Page) on Sun, Sep 8, 13 at 19:32
| I made a comment about this on a thread about "hybrids, your rants and raves" or something to that effect. I noticed this a long time ago and said my biggest rant was that there was no sadder sight than watching a butterfly flying aimlessly about over a flower garden full of hybrid plants and finding no plants of any use to it. I have seen this over and over again. |
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| prairiemoon - Yes, those 2 zinnias have been a dud with the insect crowd this summer. But maybe it also has something to do with the color? I don't know. It's just my observation. I have grown State Fair in the past in mixed colors and they were a hit with the flying critters. Unfortunately, they also grew too tall for me - like close to 4 feet which just doesn't work in my garden. I have to start watching my sedums. This is becoming an interesting topic. Kevin |
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| I hope this isn't too far off topic, but if we are talking about pollinators, I wanted to ask about EARLY host plants. I have some blue princess hollies that are 8 years old but never have more than a very few berries. I suspect a lack of pollinators, or possibly consistent late freezes. I have one male and two female plants. I know this is not the shrub forum, but since we are talking about insect pollinators, and I have noticed that some here are quite knowledgable about pollinators, I thought I would ask here. Should I plant more hollies to attract the pollinators? They bloom in early to mid May, at 3000 feet elevation, NC mountains. |
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- Posted by gardenweed_z6a N CT (My Page) on Mon, Sep 9, 13 at 21:27
| splitrock - there are perennials other than shrubs that attract pollinators & bloom very early in the season as well as many others that bloom as late as October where I am. I have toad lily just starting to bloom now and the bees are all over it. While I can't comment specifically on your elevation, for early season bloom where I am, I've got perennial columbine, hellebore, woodland phlox, false indigo, dianthus, beardtongue, lungwort, globeflower, bugloss, Montauk daisy & bleeding heart. Judging by what I've seen in my garden over the past several years, my garden design is sustaining them. Seems to me it's reasonable to assume Mother Nature provided for the pollinators when she decided when certain species should bloom each growing season. My garden goal has been to provide sustenance for pollinators from beginning to end of each growing season. I'm beginning to thing I may have achieved that goal. Best of luck to you. |
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| It wouldn't surprise me if some of the hybrids are less useful for insects and birds, since some of them are sterile. When I'm at the nursery I will sometimes watch which plants the bees go to, and favor those. I also grow a lot of perennials from seed, and my back garden consists of almost entirely native perennials, so there is always something for pollinators. Right now the back garden is buzzing with bumblebees on the Eupatorium, Solidago, and the annuals. I just took down the hummingbird feeder because the hummers stopped going to it - there's Salvia, Zinnias, and some Lobelia cardinalis blooming out there, which they seem to prefer. They LOVE the Salvia Black & Blue, which is coming on strong now. I grow a patch of the tall Zinnias every year - State Fair, Cut & Come Again, or California Giants, and also have a packet of just the Scarlet red ones (can't remember the name). I go for the single and semi-double Zinnias over the fully double types like Benary Giants, because the theory is that the nectar tubes are more accessible for the pollinators. The butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds love these Zinnias. I also grow other annuals such as Tithonia, Salvia, Marigolds, Melampodium, and tropical milkweed for the pollinators - and they're gorgeous and colorful when the perennial season is winding down. |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 15:10
| Terrene, thanks for that list of plants that the pollinators and the Hummingbirds are using the most. I seem to remember you have a lot of trees in your back garden and I'm wondering why I have so much trouble with dryness that I haven't been able to grow Lobelia but you seem to be doing okay with it. Is your soil heavy? I'm looking for tall Zinnias, so which would you say is taller, the State Fair or the California Giants? Annual Salvia? |
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- Posted by linlily z5/6PA (jakey915@comcast.net) on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 16:15
| mxk3, you are going to love Pink Chablis. I planted mine last year and it is blooming right now. I love the variegation and the color of the flowers is so bright along side the leaves of the plant. I also put in Chocolate Drop, which has not bloomed, and Jaws, which is also blooming. These three sedum are growing side by side. If the bees and butterflies do not like the flowers on Pink Chablis, they can visit all the other flowers in the bed that they do like! Linda |
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| Hi PM2, yes I have a lot of trees and the lot is upland - very well drained sandy loam. Not so great for any wetland plant. The Lobelia cardinalis grows in a garden that dips a little and has lots of organic matter. Plus I try to give it extra water, but when it's droughty it doesn't grow that well. Nevertheless it survives and even reseeds quite a bit in the paths. I think the Cal. giants are the biggest I've grown. I like State Fair because they're colorful. I would like more whites and yellows in the mix, but those colors don't seem to grow as vigorously. For annual Salvias, I've grown Salvia coccinea (Lady in Red, Coral Nymph, and White Nymph), and Yvonnes Salvia (which can get up to 6 feet tall if you start it early), and Salvia guaranitica 'Black & Blue' - my favorite - what a beauty but not perennial in this zone, so I dig it up and overwinter it in the garage. |
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| Linda - Thanks for the comments re: Pink Chablis. Haven't heard much about this one, so I'm glad to hear it's a winner with you. They had another one - Autumn-something (Autumn Charm?), and the variegation was nice but yellower than the Pink Chablis, and the flowers on the Autumn one looked washed out and faded. A gal working at the nursery mentioned she liked Pink Chablis better than the Autumn when I was looking at the Autumn, and when I asked her why she said liked the brighter flower and the leaves of the Pink Chablis better. Guess great eyes see alike :0) |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 21:20
| Terrene, maybe that's the difference with the Lobelia too, I have clay soil. I try to make sure the garden gets water every week that we don't get rain, but the mature Silver Maples, and others, just suck the moisture out of the soil. I don't have trouble growing ferns, but sometimes they do wilt if I don't get to them in time. And clay soil is not favored by the Salvias. I've planted Black and Blue and it barely grows all summer for me. Well, maybe I'll give some of those another try with a little more soil amendment. And definitely will try the Zinnias. Thanks! |
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| For unknown reasons, very few butterflies at all - anywhere around my house in east central Illinois. I talked with the neighbors and the folks at the garden center; all agree, not much around here. However, the bumblebees AND honeybees are all over the place. They are loving everything in the yard. It's amazing to stand near the flowers and just enjoy the buzzing sound. Love it. Last few summers, lots of goldfinch activity in the yard. This year, one male only - I never saw a female! Jim |
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| For unknown reasons, very few butterflies at all - anywhere |
Here is a link that might be useful: Monarchs AWOL
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| If anyone is interested here's a link to the zinnia study. According to the university of Kentucky, Lilliput (an heirloom strain) was the strain that pulled in the most butterflies, about twice as many as the other strains.... But then I found a couple posts with people saying Lilliput was not a popular one.... So go figure. Maybe the Kentucky butterflies have different tastes? With sedums you can't always say for sure it's blooming unless you look closely, Plenty of them look great long after the blooming is done, you're admiring the red seedheads and finished blooms... It's only when the flowers are putting out nectar that the insects will be interested. Oh and I have a ton of bees and wasps this year.... Many wasps feast on caterpillars, so maybe one goes up the other goes down? I love butterflies, but when people talk abou encouraging beneficial insects they don't usually mean the butterflies.... Butterflies are sorta freeloaders, the caterpillars eat the leaves and the adults eat the nectar, but they're not the best pollinators. Bees are much better since they really get in there and do their thing. Butterflies long legs and thin 'tongue' don't move a lot of pollen. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Zinnia study
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| I was watching a Monarch checking out my zinnias today (only the 3rd one I've seen this year) and he did find something to his liking with the white ones (Polar Bear). He still didn't touch the Uproar Rose, but some of the Polar Bear flowers develop a very distinct, tall, central cone. These flowers are usually smaller than the rest and lack a lot of the petals that the fully double flowers have. In any case, the Monarch liked those flowers and kept going from one to the next. He really didn't seem to have any interest in the fully double flowers lacking that central cone. Kevin |
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| Hi PM2, I would think clay soil would be better for a wetland plant, because it retains moisture. But those Silver maples! I feel your pain, there is a big one right at the corner of the house, boy are they water hogs and the roots are unbelievable. I would say the chances of growing a wetland plant near a Silver maple are about zero - unless you are in the middle of a swamp! Bummer on the Salvia, I am loving my B&B and Yvonnes right about now. I'm going to have to try out those Lilliput Zinnias. This pic is an old one from 2006 but it's one of my faves - twin Monarchs on twin Zinnias. That year I grew a combo of Cal Giants and Cut & Come Again. Note the big "central cones". |
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- Posted by prairiemoon2 zone 6a/MA (My Page) on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 4:37
| Thanks for that Zinnia study, kato. I've had a lot of bees this year too. Not as many wasps, thankfully, so maybe I had fewer caterpillars. I think I saw one lonely Monarch all season. Terrene, it's a wonder I grow anything, I have two mature Silver Maples in two neighbor's yards, within 5ft of my lot line and a third neighbor who backs up to the back of my lot, that has three more and a fourth neighbor to my north with a line of 6 Spruce, a London Plane Tree and a Pine all within 5ft of my lot line. And my lot is only a 1/4 acre, so you can imagine how dense that is. And two regular Maples in my own yard and a third regular Maple again within 5ft of my lot line in the front neighbor's yard. (g) I do appreciate trees (although Silver Maples not so much) and it does give us a lot of privacy, but by Fall, there's always something looking pretty fried despite moving the sprinkler around. I love a good soaking rain! Thanks for the photo of your zinnias and Monarchs, yes, I see the central cone you are talking about. For a minute I thought the pink flowers were Echinacea. |
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| Sedum "Autumn Fire" appears to be as attractive to bees as S. "Autumn Joy" (which is good, since "Autumn Fire" is much more ornamental). What with a large clump of African blue basil and Salvias planted nearby (the heavily blooming basil is irresistible), the garden is humming with bees and other pollinators. |
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