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catkin_gw

Wholesale Nurseries

catkin
9 years ago

Many times I've Googled plant names and clicked on websites only to find, after I've gotten excited about what's offered, that they're wholesale/to the trade only. :~(

What type of license does one need to buy wholesale? I suppose every state is different in its requirements?

Forgive me if these are silly questions!

Comments (48)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not silly and they often get asked.

    Typically, a wholesale nursery will only sell to someone who resells the plants, a retail nursery or a landscape contractor or designer. Or in some cases, groceries or stores that sell gifts/garden accessories and plants. And that usually means one has to a have at least a business license for that profession, but that may vary from state to state and even from wholesaler to wholesaler (for example some wholesale nurseries in my area even require landscape contractors/designers to have a retail nursery license in addition to their regular business license before they will sell to them). One of the reasons is because wholesalers generally sell in quantity - more than just couple of plants - and there may also be liability issues with opening their facilities to the general public. They also do not have the sales staff or the time to deal with the buying public.....most of the time it is self-serve for onsite sales or by phone or faxed order. State sales tax may also be a factor - wholesalers do not charge it.

    Some wholesalers may also sell to the public as well but that is not typical. Often when they do, it is a quantity of plants like a flat of plugs or a truckload of larger containered plants.

  • eaga
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since you're finding these nurseries online, explore the website and look for an account application. That might give you an idea of what they require. Also keep in mind that, as gardengal mentions, some have minimum orders, so even if you qualify as a wholesale customer, you might need to buy a certain amount (by $ or quantity), and that shipping might also be an issue.

    This came up on another thread, about sourcing a specific tree. If there's something in particular you want, but you don't see it at any of your local retail nurseries, ask them if they can get it for you. They may be open to filling a special order, especially if you're a regular customer.

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I often buy from wholesalers - might be different here in the UK but generally, nearly all of them will sell to the public although they may add small order premiums (for example, buying a single tree when the catalogue wholesale price will usually be for units of 10 or more....but even paying a single purchase premium, it still works out much cheaper. For example, I always buy spring bulbs wholesale - the smallest number of tulips, say, might be 50 of each type....but will cost about the same as 15 packaged bulbs....and bulbs always look better in multiples of 100 anyway.
    It never hurts to shoot a quick e.mail; or telephone call either.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    there are tax implications....

    as well as the fact.. that they usually have minimum order numbers ...

    it might be a great unit price... but not if you have to buy 25 of them ...

    ken

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would say that campanula's experience would not be standard in the US.

  • arbo_retum
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    gg48 is correct. And when campanula says anything about the nursery business, you must remember-- she is in ENGLAND, that land far away where 'everyone' is a gardener, and obsessive gardeners to boot, so it wouldn't surprise me if the whole British gardening industry were much more open to sharing- than the $$$$focused Americans!!*

    * this is not intended to be affrontive in any way; all said with love and respect for all concerned on both sides of the Pond :-)

    You might be interested in this retail-selling wholesaler:
    http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/neweng/msg090241502936.html?1

    mindy

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, mindy, there's no shame in being affrontative if you're telling the truth and it hurts someone's feelings. Which you are, and it could. And the irony about what campanula wrote is there's even less of a _need_ to buy from a wholesaler in the UK or Europe, because the existing retail/mail order nurseries do a better job of carrying a more extensive range of cultivars and to a lesser degree species. As I've said before, for some place producing 10,000s of red maples and other such junk for Walmart, why in the world would anyone want to shop there retail? OTOH I'm convinced that for some wholesalers, Iseli and the other PNW rare conifer producers come to mind, who _want_ to produce interesting plants, there's still some kind of mentality here that special plants have to be like Rx drugs. That Joe Public needs a "guru" to "prescribe" them; thus either buying them at a specialist local nursery or even more preferable have a landscaper charge to plant them in their yard. Rare plants in Europe are seen as "OTC drugs". You see the difference? The local retail nursery or landscaper is suppose to handle the "marketing" of the material, on the theory that everyone will "come out ahead" in this scheme. That they will sell more overpriced Sciadopitys if people with McMansions are told by a smooth talker that one will make their house look special if it planted out front. (I have seen such smooth talkers in action. They are good at it) If they were really in it for the love of horticulture and not money, they'd realize the people who actually want an unusual cultivar of Japanese Umbrella Pine are perfectly happy to seek one out and do what is necessary to obtain it. I've had several pallet deliveries to my house. It really isn't as big a deal as you might expect. Most of the major freight companies - I think the last one to visit my house was Estes - have smaller trucks with liftgates.

    Actually here's an even better example. Briggs is currently the premier rhododendron wholesaler in the country, probably in all of North America. In spring 2013, Groff's plant farm in Lancaster Co. (zn 6) had several fancy German Hachmann cultivars produced by Briggs, for very good prices. 12.95 for a plant Rarefind would have been charging $30 for. No one there is a real trees/shrub expert as you'd find at Rarefind for example, so I suspect they just called up Briggs (I know they got them at Briggs, because they showed me the catalog) and said, "oy, send us some rhodos for Lancaster". (haha, no people there don't speak with silly northern UK accents, but it would be funny if they did) Well, all my Hachmanns did terribly this winter, clearly their hardiness under continental North American conditions has been overestimated. (not Hachmann's fault, of course) I can assure you, since most Groff's shoppers are in zn 6, a lot of those 12.95 plants died. But Groff's sold a lot of them. Let's say they'd ordered two hundred, and Briggs made a profit of $2.50 on each. So that's $500. One supposes if Briggs instead focused on the retail "market", me and 9 other rhododendron enthusiasts in the Groff's footprint would have ordered perhaps 2 cultivars that struck our fancy, each. Even if they made $10 of profit on each of us by charging more for the liners, that's still only $200. But the UK version of Briggs, perhaps because they are operating in an overall smaller market and one where people are slightly less likely to throw their money away making ill-informed, spur-of-the-moment impulse purchases in May, figures, "let's just sell directly to the enthusiasts".

    My personal view is this is a very dated mentality and is only going to speed the demise of advanced horticulture. Some other smart people are realizing this: it's quite likely that Monrovia's plan to sell "directly" to consumers via their website was instituted at the behest of their annoyed creditors. It just no longer makes sense to do things the old way in the information age. Again though this only applies since Monrovia was already trying to build a reputation as an purveyor of "advanced" plants. The people who want non-advanced plants can go on buying them at the big box stores, which is the only place such people buy them anymore.

    " that land far away where 'everyone' is a gardener, and obsessive gardeners to boot, " Well this certainly has been true, but I wonder if it will remain so. I remember meeting a 18-21-ish looking employee at the Palm Centre nursery in Richmond, London. I remarked to him, "oh, you are young to be interested in horticulture" and he said to me "have you heard this joke: an American boy expresses interest in gardening. His parents, worried, take him to a psychiatrist. An English boy does not express any interest in gardening. His parents, worried, take him to a psychiatrist." Or something like that.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 2:00

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And, to clarify since a lot of you may not be "clued in" to this...the comparison is apt because quite a few expensive Rx drugs in the US are essentially misprescribed. They aren't actually required, a cheaper older or no-longer-patented generic drug will work just as well. They whole system is rigged to maximum the profits of big pharma, and it works well because besides big oil they are the most profitable industry in the world.

  • arbo_retum
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey david,
    Pass the Percoset, man.

    I did carefully read your response but much of what you wrote is very confusing to me, mostly because you write a long involved paragraph and then use "They" or 'this" without making sure that it is clear exactly which "they" or "this" you have referenced.( i.e. "My personal view is this is a very dated mentality and is only going to speed the demise of advanced horticulture.") The upshot is that I can't tell the white hats from the black hats in your world.
    I personally do not see the box stores as black hats but what i think is irrelevant. I would like to hear Tony Avent, Lazy S's owner, etc. speak on how box stores have and do affect them. I'm guessing there have been presentations on this topic at numerous conferences, national meetings, etc.
    I DO love your joke---darling.
    mindy

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Course I am not offended....we are all gardeners, wanting this or that plant, right?
    So tell me, how does it work if you are say, a small, self-employed landscaper (like myself, in my younger, fitter days)? At some point, I crossed the line between amateur and pro.....and yet, I was not buying substantially more stock for my customers and myself. I did not simply wear a different hat which said 'trade' and I still needed to buy a range of plants but in relatively small quantities. For me, because I had a little business card and a bit more confidence, I simply got on the phone and was surprised that even a massive company like Trees for Life, which essentially sells to garden centres, were happy to send me a catalogue, offer me an account and supply me with those half a dozen apple cordons and a few dozen currant bare-roots. Bulbs, I know, are a different thing in the US since you do not really produce them but buy wholesale from Holland....but we have a thriving bulb industry in the fens (Spalding, Lincolnshire) where not only do merchants sell to garden centres and box stores, they often have their own on-site shop for the public...and some will even offer dig your own.
    I guess there is that distance thing - there is nowhere in England further than 10miles from a specialist nursery (we have thousands of them) who all carry inventories of around 3000 different plants and often specialise....and ALL of these nurseries are cheaper to buy directly from than going to a garden centre (with their huge overheads and many employees working in the cafe and Xmas decoration department). There is everything else in-between - including enormous glasshouses which sell seasonal bedding plants where you do need to order in multiple units...but believe me, people (the public) do. If you are a fan of annual bedding, it is not unusual to buy 3000 plugs a year in the UK..........and many people sell a few plants on tables outside their houses, yard sales and the ubiquitous (but not for me) Ebay

    So where do you buy your plants?Obviously, I have heard of Terra-Nova, Plant Delights and White Flower Farm (and my favourites, Annies Annuals) but there must be many, many smaller nurseries which are cheaper than garden centres (I loathe this idea - one of the worst ideas we imported from the US.....although these emporiums have many fans).
    Weirdly, we have a situation in the UK where it is often cheaper to buy a rare and special plant from a specialist nursery than to buy a generic version from a large centre or even our equivalent to Big Box stores.

    Incidentally, the same applies to agricultural supplies. You know those fertilisers and stuff available for the home garden market.....while farmers can get much pokier chemicals in large quantities..... After all, how do they know who you are when you are merely filling in an on-line order form. Caveat - not that I buy these heavy duty chemicals as a rule....but have certainly bought stuff such as Broadshot, Nimrod, Dynamec without having to roll up in a tractor with a massive cheque book.

    I have not really mentioned mail order where shipping costs bump the prices up....and I imagine, in the huge US that many people still rely mainly on mail-order rather than going to a nursery in person....is that the case?

    David - the garden industry in the UK shows no sign of slacking off but we are experiencing severe shortages of gualified and trained youngsters since our further education sector has been in crisis (but don't get me going there!).

    What are the tax implications? VAT (value added tax) is charged on plants in the UK for everyone (like on clothes and building supplies). Businesses which earn more than a certain amount can claim this tax back but this does not apply to the general public since the tax is applied across the board. It has certainly never been applicable to me as either a pro-gardener or a (greedy) amateur.

  • Kirstin Zone 5a NW Chicago
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In my experience, what you need to purchase wholesale in IL, where I am, are a state-issued tax id # and a minimum order, which depends on the seller, but may be +/- $500.00. What you need to get a discount at most nurseries around here is a business card, and you can figure on a discount in the 10% - 15% range.

    Also, FWIW, in my personal experience, there are just as many avid, knowledgeable, and passionate gardeners in the US as there are in England, or anywhere else, for that matter. It's just a matter of knowing where to find them. Or, maybe more, being lucky to be in an area where there is a concentration of them.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Campanula, thanks for your perspectives. It seems like the big picture here is in the UK, high end plants are traditionally more demand-driven that in the US. It could even be that the more reasonable prices you cite are because specialist retailers are, for some types of plants, in "competition" with the purchasers themselves. If plant xxx were too expensive, you could try to obtain the seed from Chiltern, Jelitto or whomever and grow it yourself...or for a cultivar, grow a cutting of it yourself. Because there's a large contingent of gardeners with the specialized skills to do that. In the US, our plants are more supply-driven. Wholesaler Acme Plant are able to produce 50 of plant X₁ and 200 of plant X₂. The marketing department decides the best way to market - part of country, choice of local nursery exclusivity, best size at which to sell plant - these groups of plants to obtain best profitability. Rather than hope that buyers find them, they hope to create buyers. I have no doubt if we could chart the profits of all UK versus US nurseries offering primarily wholesale pricing (in other words, VAT exemption in the UK, non-tax sales in the US), for the past 20 years for nurseries existing for that time period and having some baseline revenue figure like 1 million USD, we'd see that...during housing booms the US nurseries have been hugely more profitable. The US will have more spikes and valleys, and you'd expect for a supply-driven industry. The UK will have a smoother chart, as you'd expect for a demand-driven industry. It would also be interesting to compare the HUGE number of US wholesalers that went backrupt from 2007-2013 with the UK. I would be very surprised if the figures on a percentage-of-industry basis were even remotely comparable. Campanula, do you know of any specialist UK nurseries that have gone out of business due to poor business practices during that period? (2007-2013) This obviously discounts places like Archibald seed where the owner passed away. OTOH, within a short drive of me, Dilworth Nursery in Oxford, a retailer then wholesaler of high end conifers and shrubs, folded in spring 2013. WIthout even looking for them, I've heard of the death of many other wholesalers. Just completely by chance, when I was in the PNW in 2011, I somehow became aware of 2 conifers wholesalers who were having bank-ordered liquidation sales. There's a whole company Reimold, that focuses on auctioning defunct wholesalers.

    So in fact whatever I "think" of US wholesaler practices, the market has already "decided" that their approach is in many cases foolhardy and dated.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    a lot of wholesalers ... in the areas i peruse ... use their websites to generate interest ... lots of pretty pix ....

    one trick i found ... and used to be common ... is that some of the sites.. had a zip code finder... or FIND A RETAILER link ...

    sometimes i devolved into simply calling the wholesaler ... especially in winter [usual annual downtime]... and simply asking if they had the wherewithal ... to search their own database by zip code.. and tell me who they might sell to ... locally ...

    or who of their retailers.. might do mail order ...

    if there is a will .. there is a way ...

    the other alternative.. is to develop a relationship with a good high end nursery.. and ask them.. about this time to year.. if they can order in ... what you might be wanting for spring delivery ... obviously.. there will be no bargain this way ... but you can usually get.. what you want... else you are left at the link

    ken

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Also, FWIW, in my personal experience, there are just as many avid, knowledgeable, and passionate gardeners in the US as there are in England, or anywhere else, for that matter. It's just a matter of knowing where to find them. Or, maybe more, being lucky to be in an area where there is a concentration of them."

    Look, I've gotten in the "argument" before. Because, it isn't really an argument. Yes, there are plenty of people who love horticulture in the US. We have 318 million people, the UK has 64 million. Compared to 20 years ago it's much easier to meet like minded people because of the internet. However to say gardening cultures in either country are completely comparable is ludicruous. One only needs to spend some time walking around in the (particularly, but not exclusively, upscale) residential parts of either country, and I have, to see the difference. I remember a section of Edinburgh in particular. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the front gardens looked like something out of a magazine. Weed free? Check. Scads of rare plants? Check. Rarified (by US standards!) sense of color and texture? Check. There's just no comparison. There are plantings in Rye, Sussex I can still vividly remember 4 years after being there. Sure once in a blue moon you happen upon an American garden like that. But they are not the norm. There, in some places, they are. The closest thing comparable I've observed in the US are some neighborhoods around UC Berkeley. Where, again, due to _demand_, you have an excellent supplier of rarities on the scene, Annie's Annuals (among others)...and obviously a climate that is highly coöperative, other than having to water certain things.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 9:39

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "one trick i found ... and used to be common ... is that some of the sites.. had a zip code finder... or FIND A RETAILER link ... "

    But, again, the irony is, they don't really care about any given customer _finding_ a retailer. Their goal is just to pump the plants out in the market, like butterball pumping up their turkeys with saline. Put them on the right* nursery lot, and someone will buy them.

    The world is migrating to a more demand-driven model. Shopping for exactly what you want on amazon? Demand driven. Going to the local Target or Supermarket and hoping something they have in stock is sorta like what you are looking for? That's a supplier driven mentality. The US nursery industry is still very much stuck in this older system.

    * or, again, for people selling walmart-grade material, _any_ nursery lot...which these days usually means the garden section of a wallyworld, HD or Lowes

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a good article about the travails of Dilworth. By the time they went retail as a last ditch effort to stay alive, I'd bought most of what they carried and that was interesting to me somewhere else. OTOH, if they had remained retail/mail order for their entire run, when I started creating my current garden in 2006, I would have bought a lot of stuff there. (Not that a single gardener/purchaser would have made a difference, of course)

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://articles.philly.com/2012-10-01/news/34178720_1_waterloo-gardens-nursery-business-wholesale-retail-nursery

  • eaga
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    campanula, in my area there are a number of wholesale nurseries that will sell to pro gardeners who can present proof of the existence of a business and a tax ID, with no or a low minimum quantity. I've attached a link to one of them, and if you poke around under 'new customers' you can find their account application.

    As far as tax implications, this varies from state to state. In New York, the pro gardener's tax ID works to exempt his or her purchases from state sales tax. The pro gardener is then obligated to collect sales tax on merchandise, including plants, from the ultimate customer, i.e., his or her client. There are of course exemptions to this, but that's it in a nutshell.

    Anecdotally, according to friends from hort school, a bigger stumbling block for gardeners wanting to go professional are local licensing and insurance requirements. In my area they are governed by counties, towns, villages, etc. - smaller governments within the state. The licenses are for working as a home improver, doing physical work on someone else's property. The license itself is not difficult to get, but the licenseholder is required to carry liability and workers compensation insurance, which can be expensive. Sorry to go OT, and I know this is probably not relevant to the OP, but I thought it belonged in here somewhere :).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Wholesale nursery

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Boy, this discussion got very interesting!!

    I am not sure it makes sense to compare the nursery industry in the US with the same industry in the UK. First,there is the vast difference in size.......the UK at some 94,000 square miles is smaller than the state of Oregon alone. And that says nothing about the vast differences in climates, geographical anomalies and growing conditions across the US. And I am not at all convinced that the same love-to-garden mentality exists here as it does there. Sometimes it's hard to divorce ourselves from the focused gardener's world that exists here at GW and consider that the bulk of the US public wouldn't even know what a wholesale nursery was and think a good retail nursery is their local Lowes' or HD.....or Walmart. And I'm pretty sure that most UK gardeners actually garden themselves while a large percentage of US homeowners hire someone to do it for them. It's no small wonder that the nursery industry here is stressed. And let me tell you, I know - I have been intimately involved in this industry for the past 25 years or so, both as a nurseryperson (retail AND wholesale) and in the residential landscape side of things. The gardening skills and knowledge of the average US Joe Public are pretty slim.

    And I really do think that much of our perceptions about this industry are regionally based, simply because of the huge geographic size and diversity of the US. Here in the PNW, with a climate more similar to the UK than anywhere else in the country and a nearly ideal growing climate, the quality and range of offerings of even a smaller retail nursery are pretty impressive. And there are a lot of them, as well as a lot of really good larger retail garden centers. Because they are so plentiful with such a wide range of stock and so easy to access, I - a serious plant collector for the past 35 years - have never felt a need to mail order much of anything, just the odd species clematis from a specialty nursery a bit too far away for an afternoon drive. Also, because of locale, the west coast does seem to have a plethora of specialty nurseries as well as the bulk of the larger big plant growers - the major shrub and tree wholesalers that ship plants to all points across the country.

    I will be the first to admit that this rather privileged situation is unique to this area. I've driven across vast areas of the country where there simply are not any retail nurseries outside of the mega-retailers like HD or Costco or Walmart. If anyone in these areas wants to garden what are their choices?? The box store or mail order. No wonder they have no knowledge of or access to any of the less common horticultural selections available.

    I don't blame this on the wholesalers or their supposed lack of modern marketing practices......I think this is the result of several factors: the economic situation which affected both the housing industry and the shrinking of disposable income (plant buying is a luxury for many), a radical change in gardening demographics (baby boomers are aging beyond gardening ability and the x-gener's and millennials have little interest for gardening in their overactive lifestyles) and the fact that small businesses of any kind - like most retail nurseries - just have a very difficult time competing in this day and age for the consumer dollar. I'd venture to say that the bulk of the wholesalers who have folded - and they popped up in Oregon by the scores in the 90's as that state's hazelnut industry tanked - did so because a) they were undercapitalized, and b) the bulk of their market, not nearly as well established as the share held by the big players, disappeared. Fewer retailers means much more competition for the wholesalers and only the strong survive.

    I don't know how much sense it makes for the wholesalers to change their marketing strategies......if they even need to do so at all. It is extremely complicated to be a jack of all trades. Gearing up to sell direct to the public would require additional staffing and no doubt the creation of additional expensive infrastructure on what are already very slim margins. And a serious change of direction if your focus is currently centered on the production, growing and in some cases, breeding of high quality plant material. Even Briggs has narrowed rather than expanded its focus - it has become the wholesaler's wholesale nursery. It no longer focuses on producing finished stock (what the industry calls 'retail ready') but liners to be grown on by other wholesalers or larger retail nurseries with their own growing facilities. Whatever finished goods they may offer have just been grown on by them from unsold liners, a much reduced offering compared to the range of liners available.

    I'd also love to see how Monrovia's direct-to-the-consumer program is working. I doubt it is the success they hoped. Actual availability of their plant product is always in major flux and if retailers want to carry specific Monrovia products, they better pre-book well in advance of the season. If you look at Monrovia's online catalog, the vast majority of offerings will have a "not available for direct sales" disclaimer attached to it. Kinda defeats the purpose, I'd say :-))

    David, I enjoy your posts. They are highly opinionated, which I appreciate, being somewhat inclined that way myself, and they always provide some pause for thought.

    And Campanula we DO produce bulbs in the US. Skagit Valley just across the Sound from me is the largest producer of narcissus, tulips and iris outside of the Netherlands, some of which actually get exported back to Holland. Only about a tenth of the production of that country, however. We also have a couple of very large lily producers in this area as well.

    All of this is a bit far from Catkin's original question but it may provide a little insight into the mysterious world of wholesale nurseries here in the US.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gardengal, thanks for your thoughtful (as usual!) response.

    "I don't know how much sense it makes for the wholesalers to change their marketing strategies......if they even need to do so at all."
    NB, I wasn't talking about all wholesalers, just the minority who are more esoterically and specialty oriented.

    "I'd also love to see how Monrovia's direct-to-the-consumer program is working. I doubt it is the success they hoped."
    Agreed, but it's the symbolism of it that mattered. No premiere US wholesale nursery had done anything like it before. Someone, somewhere, realized how idiotic it was to sell specialized horticultural material in this way. And since Monrovia was in deep financial doodoo, it was probably one of their creditors. Imagine if to buy a ring you'd heard about at Tiffany's you could only get a list of local retailers who might have it. Then you'd call those places, and 2/3 of them would give you the run-around, and try to direct you to a ring from a competing brand. 1/3 would be able to call you back - in a few days when they'd gone out into the fields to see if they could find the ring. Not very intelligent.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One more observation before I hopefully pull myself away from this thread. Having been to Europe and/or the UK several times since I was a teen in 1993 I will say this: there's a slow march of "Americanization" there, clearly. Never mind the other socio-economic issues that are going to affect it like the aging population and structural problems...WAY off topic to go into, so let's not. It's far from guaranteed that whatever specialized gardening culture that exists there will last forever. But for now, yes, it is more vibrant.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 12:56

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ah, beg pardon GG - I do know about your lilies (I have often gasped in envy) but had only come across the larger bulb suppliers (Brents, Van Engelen....so assumed that Holland supplied to the world.
    It occurs to me that we are talking about different things here for which there is no direct equivalent. There are wholesalers....and wholesalers.Some, in the UK, tend to produce a very limited selection of plants - generic rudbeckias in maybe 2/3 varieties, say....whereas little nurseries raise their own stock, have lower overheads, sell to smaller specialist markets (and may have 3 dozen varieties). If I wished to buy 30 particular geums, say, unless I wanted the usual Mrs Bradshaw and the other yellow one (brain dead), I could buy these from several wholesalers, without having to produce anything other than money - no tax certificates, no business cards.....but if I wanted 30 Pink Frills, I would have to bite the bullet and pay retail nursery prices.....but even so, this would still be cheaper than buying 30 'common' geums from a garden centre....and although rarer varieties may be on sale in places which order stock but do not grow their own plants, the costs would be exhorbitant..And we do have several wholesalers who specialise who do have many varieties...but, the more people in a selling chain, all needing to make a profit, the more expensive it can be for the end user....but the market is often a (rigged) law unto itself....which must also be a factor. All in all, as my rambling post illustrates - massively confusing.
    And in a way, we get the best of all worlds in that rare or unusual plants are invariably sourced from places which have grown them on site (and are affordable for everyone)....while a thriving wholesale market accomodates the many people who just want to rock up and make their garden look cheery, by selling in quantity to garden centres and box stores,, creating jobs and contributing to our economy (which is dire at present). However much David romanticises UK gardening, there are many, many people who just want some bright colours or worse, paving over gardens for cars. Regarding the current economic state of horticulture, it is not a hugely reliable correlation and, as a rule, it is likely to be the more over-capitalised garden industries which suffer rather than the many local, small scale but hugely experienced nursery owners.
    However, we generally accept that running a nursery is not a get rich quick (or ever) career move.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    one thing for sure..

    even if the wholesaler goes retail ...

    he isnt going to sell at wholesale prices ... he will sell at retail prices.. or no retailer... will buy his wholesale stock ... so which market does he want.. the hundred peeps who might buy one plant..

    or the hundred retailers who will buy 10000 plants????

    many wholesalers.. just dont want to deal with the public... though we are a rather select group ... let me suggest.. as a whole ... the unwashed masses are a PIA ...

    e.g. i bought this plant 2 years ago.. in a quart pot..and left it on the driveway since.. and it died.. when i planted it ... and the seller wont give me my money back ... etc ... going on.. i didnt water it ... but i put 5 pounds of fert in the hole when i planted it.. because i figured it might be hungry after two years... all the leaves were on the top ... so i planted it up the where the leaves were [ten inches too deep] ... and then i went on vacation for 6 months.. and my neighbor didnt water it .... can i save this plant???? .. boy did i digress ... lol..so i went to all the watchdog sites and blasted the seller with negative comments ...

    ken

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "However much David romanticises UK gardening"
    Yes and you surely hadn't seen my 2nd to last post, but that's why I talked about the overall homogenization of Western culture and the thought that the uniqueness of the UK in this regard might not last forever. (one could almost wonder if the Germans are stealing their thunder on some fronts, with a new initiative there to preserve all known rhododendron cultivars, for example)
    Do you get "The Garden" and if so does the magazine still have the feature every issue that profiles a young gardener? Years ago I skimmed a whole bunch of back issues at the University of Delaware library and that feature was noticeable as something that might not work in the US. But their holdings stop in the early 1990s, they idiotically stopped subscribing to it. Maybe it made American garden magazines look bad haha. Longwood of course still has all copies, but their library is a bit of a hassle to use because you have schedule ahead and it's semi-closed stack. I wish I could subscribe the cost is exorbitant and one almost gets the impression they don't want American members of the RHS. Which on some level I can almost understand.

  • eaga
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I poked around on Monrovia's direct-to-consumer catalog, clicked on a dozen or so plants, all of which were out of stock. The prices are retail, I hope. A Sum & Substance hosta, no size given, goes for $51.50. The way it works, one purchases the plants online and then picks them up at a local participating retailer. A couple of weeks ago, there were just two participating retailers in my area. Today it showed none within 100 miles, which would include most of the NYC metro area. Most of the retailers around here sell Monrovia products, so that's not it. Maybe it's the season, although small conifers, winter blooming heaths, berried hollies and cotoneasters, are pretty popular here around the holidays even if they can't be planted until Spring. Maybe I'm just not their target consumer.

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >Maybe it's the seasonIt's the season.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    yes, I doubt there's much demand for a truckload of plants being shipped across country at this time of year.

    btw, that Sum and Substance hosta going for $50 bucks was a #5 or a 5G nursery container. That kind of size and price for a hosta is no doubt intended for the new owner of a McMansion who wants instant gratification and for whom price is no object. I can't imagine anyone else foolish enough or that free with cash to purchase a 5G hosta, when a 1G at a third of the price (at most) would be darn near the same size next season.

    This post was edited by gardengal48 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 15:22

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Funny thing I have to mention: clearly my interest in the topic exceeds almost anyone else's - so be it.
    But I'd been struggling to remember why I became aware of those bankrupt PNW conifer wholesalers. Well google by 2011 was probably close to perfecting their localization technology. What I'm pretty sure happened was this: I was in Portland and I wanted to find the address of Stanley & Sons, which I did visit the following day. I just googled something like "Oregon conifer wholesalers" to find a list, but their ad placement tech. realized I was in Oregon, and some internet ads placed by the liquidator/auctioneers popped up. But this is a bit ironic given the whole discussion: google, quite inadvertedly, was doing a better job or trying to anyhow, of connecting interested buyer with willing seller than the industry itself can sometimes muster. I decided to not visit the dead nurseries, because their lists weren't too interesting although they had a few good plants, 2nd because I would have had to dig them and didn't have a shovel with me, and 3rd, it made more sense to support a still struggling nursery. So, I bought a few things at Stanley that were appealing to me. Though his stock was reduced from the pre-crash boom days of the mid 2000s. Alas the terrible summers of 2011 and 2012 killed some of the stuff I bought from him, but there were surprise survivors like the amazing Podocarpus 'Red Tip', which has no business being from Tasmania given its heat (or cold) tolerance.

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I have never been to the US but am certain there are amazing examples of horticultural expertise...

    I noticed that a connection between house prices, the economy and gardening was made...whereas, in the UK, gardening is extremely egalitarian....the lowliest and poorest manual worker would cultivate tiny auriculas or pinks while the great houses have always had armies of staff with their private pinetums, ferneries and alpine houses. There has been a flourishing vegetable growing movement, often regional such as giant gooseberries in the north of England....so we have never classed gardening as a hobby for the wealthy, cultured or erudite....but something which has crossed all class divisions.

    I do fear for the future of horticulture, mainly because we have gutted so many educational opportunities - all those parks and gardens apprenticeships, vanishing municipal opportunites (which is a result of politics and a failing economy)....and, as with all further education, it is becoming the province of the wealthy. My own college has been sold off for development!

  • eaga
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bboy and gardengal, of course you're right, it is the (wrong) season. I guess I'm just in seasonal denial :).

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I noticed that a connection between house prices, the economy and gardening was made..."

    The connection in the context of this thread was wholesalers are quite comfortable with their status-quo business model when the huge US real estate juggernaut supports lavish spending on prestige plants by the uninitiated or naive. When a relative of mine was landscaping his huge "McMansion" he called in a few of the supposedly top flight Philly landscape architect firms. I was present for a couple of the meetings...struggling to keep my mouth shut. Of course, they all proposed incredibly elaborate "foundation planting" schemes, with a busy, layered panoply of plants surrounding the front facade of the house. One had so much large-growing garbage in there, that a pretty vista from the front of the house would in 5-10 years be blocked. Of course it wasn't really garbage - they were pricey prestige plants in fact - it was just planted like garbage which is the issue. As I would say to any American with money planning their dream estate: look at Highclere Castle. (or pratically every other stately home in the UK or Europe) Where, pray tell, are the "foundation" shrubs? If the architecture is good enough (and it often isn't...) very little additional structure is needed in the way of plants. My relative followed my advice and planted a simple row of low, curving shrubs and some liriopes behind them. He's been very happy with it. It looks far more like the authentic landscaping of the old PA farmhouses that his was intended to broadly replicate.

    Meanwhile, a similar house in their enclave (too small and exclusive to be called a 'development') sold earlier this year for well over 1 million, and the new buyer ripped out every single plant in front from a similarly overwrought scheme of 10-12 years earlier that had grown completely out of hand.

    No one knows yet, really, whether the age of the American McMansion is over. There are demographic signs pointing in either way. But it's possible that people are wising up about the sort of idiotic planting schemes that typically infest them. Though it depends on the area. DC has more new money that the other east coast cities, and hence continues to be awful for this sort of thing. The latest hideous trend I've spotted in Great Falls and McLean is places having fountains in their driveway circles.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The latest hideous trend I've spotted in Great Falls and McLean is places having fountains in their driveway circles.

    LOL!! I'd consider that a prime example of Britification or the attempt to turn these monstrosities (don't get me started on the architecture of these places.......that was my first college degree!) into the American version of a British stately home. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate at all well. Something to do with scale perhaps......?

    I used to teach a class on lawns and lawn alternatives in an attempt to encourage homeowners to move beyond the obligatory, often unnecessaryand hugely resource draining front lawns. This too is an adaptation of a mostly British practice that has now come to be an accepted and expected part of American suburbia. Before WWI, the average property owner had a very functional garden, given over to mostly raising fruits and veggies and a few chickens and livestock. Maybe a rose bush or two or lilac thrown in. No one had the time, $$ or inclination to maintain a manicured lawn. The only places a lawn seemed appropriate was with the larger landholdings (our US version of the country estate?) or in public parks and gardens. Now a lawn is de rigueur and in many cases, required by HOA's and neighborhood associations. Forget that many newer suburban lots are the size of postage stamps.......you still gotta maintain that 10'x20' piece of lawn in the front yard. Stupid!

  • violetwest
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Very interesting discussion, even if ranged a bit far from the OP's question. Here's my 2cents (from a complete newb though).

    My favorite nursery, which grows all their own plants and has a full range of desert native and adapted plants for our area also has a wholesale division. It's website says, "Our wholesale clients range from landscaping professionals, including architects to public schools, universities and southwestern cities."

    I did have one landscaper say that he could buy the plants I wanted direct from the wholesale division, which would provide a discount. I'm not exactly sure what criteria they use, but a wholesale buyer may only need to show they are in some landscape related business and show a resale/sales tax certificate.

    as far as the McMansion plantings, egregious lawns and statuary -- that's a whole 'nother interesting topic!

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I side with mad_gallica on this one. In a nominally moist summer climate, lawns are relatively maintainable. I've seen many, many attempts at alternatives like beds of groundcovers become jungles of weeds in very little time. The mower is merciless.

    I hate to make an example of someone, but I'd read about this place a few months ago, and the picture here is truly the "exception that proves the rule". In other words, prove the rule that most Americans have a terrible sense of domestic landscaping.

    {{gwi:278114}}

    What on Earth are these plantings trying to accomplish? Does this jumble of textures and colors really contribute anything? And more importantly you might ask, why exactly is that an exception to the rule? Because this house is surrounded by the owner's 40-acre arboretum! So why, pray tell, are two Cedrus deodaras or C. libanis required to be planted 8 feet away form the foundation, where they will tower over the house in a couple more decades, and quite possibly be snapped down during a hurricane or tornado? Was there not another spot on their 40 acres for them? In spite of every opportunity to not undertake such madness, they've still chosen to carry it out.

    As I've argued before, the point isn't that ALL houses should have no close landscaping. If you have a 1/4 acre lot, and you want shrubs, logically, some shrubs should go near the house. OTOH, in these sorts of American exurban spreads that are making pretensions of grandeur and putting on European airs of nobility, such landscaping is wholly contraindicatory.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 17:47

  • Kirstin Zone 5a NW Chicago
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I spent the day working, and this thread kept on unwinding!

    David, I sense you have very strongly protective feelings about the state of gardening in the UK as opposed to the US, and who am I to try to change your mind. To each his own. My dad was Irish, and we traveled to and from the UK regularly, visiting family, and then, later, after he moved back to Ireland and before he died. In addition, in my last job, I traveled regularly to our offices in Woking, England, where I often spent the weekends with a cousin in St. Albans. I've spent considerable time with regular friends and family in both Ireland and England, and I supposed my experience is different than yours, and therefore, my perception is different as well. Did I meet people there who were passionate about their gardens? Yes. But no more so than I am. There is certainly a heritage of gardening in the UK that has more of a "cachet" than American garden history, but I know lots of people (in person, indeed, who live right near me!!) in the US who are passionate and knowledgeable about their gardens and are avid collectors of specimen plants. And my perception stands.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mad, the invention of the rotary lawn mower only preceeds WWI by a couple of decades - that and the introduction of the garden hose essentially mark the start of the lawn craze. Regardless, the popular convention of a lawn as a standard landscape element was a European/British importation and was not popular or widespread in this country until the early part of the 20th century.

    You may want to find a copy of The Lawn: A History of an American Obsession by Virginia Scott Jenkins. It is a fascinating read and relates this very concept of the development of the American lawn somehow emulating or borrowing the status of the British and European landed gentry who orginated ( and perfected) this landscaping element.

    Here is a link that might be useful: history of the American lawn

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where you have your prairies, we have meadows....and it is this most romantic of all garden tropes which is finding the most traction in the UK....but yes, grass is deeply embedded in the English culture (less so in our marginal cousins, Wales, Scotland, Ireland)....and in our wet and temperate climate, grass has always been a reliable background, from our flowery meads tthrough to more modern conceptual plantings (Garden of Cosmic Speculation, Charles Jencks).
    I always detested turf (a dull monoculture.)..until forced do take a whole term of groundskeeping and maintenance....whereupon I was amazed and fascinated. Now I have acreage, I have been reseeding with grasses like there is no tomorrow (with wildflower seeds but still....).

    This thread has become as meandering as the Yare , my local river - looping ox-bows, tributaries, cuts and sidestreams

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Taste is subjective. I don't think the foundation planting in the above pic is horrible - yea too close to the house and somewhat uninspired, but I wouldn't classify it as horrible. At least it's neat and maintained, and I like the pops of red foliage against that color brick, that aspect of it looks great. Personally, I think a row of shrubs is boring and uninspired and looks ridiculous if it doesn't fit the overall scale of the house and property, but hey as long as it's well maintained it's not my problem (it is my problem, at least to some degree, if homes in the neighborhood are not maintained, as that reflects poorly on my home - brings down the perceived value of the neighborhood in the eyes of potential buyers). Didn't we just recently have a thread (that spilled over into a second thread) about garden tchotchkes? Talk about diversity of taste!

    I think the whole UK are "better" gardeners point of view is nonsense. Different does not equate to better nor to worse. It's like arguing that I'm a "better" gardener than someone in the Southwest US. Am I? Perhaps, perhaps not. I certainly garden *differently*, though. I'm surrounded by water, we're blessed with water everywhere in this glorious state -- more than 11,000 inland lakes and more than 36,000 miles of streams according to state statistics. Why would I want to garden xerically? I probably couldn't grow a xeric garden around here if I tried. The climates and geography of the US is so varied, not to mention local styles/aesthetics.

    I'm not a master gardener nor schooled in horticulture but that doesn't mean I'm not passionate about gardening nor does it mean I don't know what I'm doing. It also doesn't mean my personal aesthetic lacks taste.

    (you can tell some of the above posts raised my hackles, no? LOL!)

    Edited: My initial response was a bit testy, toned it down.

    This post was edited by mxk3 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 23:02

  • Kirstin Zone 5a NW Chicago
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Campanula, like you, I detested turf until I had to take a 2 day class that centered on its care and upkeep. I was surprised at how involved and complex was--more like gardening than I thought! Ha! But later in that same course, we heard a lecture by Dr. Doug Tallamy based on his book Bringing Nature Home. I loved the lecture so much, I bought the book, and have read it several times now. It talks about how lawn and non-native plant species create an eco-desert, because such a property provides no sustenance for the lowest creatures on the food chain (i.e., caterpillars, like Monarchs, who can only eat very specific, native plants), which, in turn, drives away the higher level feeders (ie bluebirds and orioles, which forage for insects). A prairie and a meadow incorporate plants beyond grasses, whereas a lawn is a definite monoculture. I am not for eliminating lawns, personally, but I am all for minimizing them!

  • Kirstin Zone 5a NW Chicago
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The other thing to consider about lawns is the incredible amount of chemicals that get dumped on them to keep them lovely. Fertilizer. Broad-leaf herbicides. Sometimes pesticides. And then we think--oh, how lovely to take our babies and grandbabies out to roll around in the grass. It's kind of shocking, really, how blind we are to all the dollars we spend on toxins which we purposefully toss on the places we live. And I say we, because I, too, had a lawn service for many years before I, one day about 4 or 5 years ago, made myself terribly ill by walking barefoot over the lawn after it was treated one day. So I'm not exempting myself--I bought into it for a long time.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re: the lawn thing.....I don't mind lawns either - where they are appropriate. They can make great staging for garden beds and are pretty much a necessity when you have small kids. But sometimes they just don't make sense, especially when they are this HOA-mandated miniscule front yard plot. What does that achieve? And in areas where water is at a premium maybe lawns aren't the best choice. Not to mention the tons of chemicals in the way of fertilizers and pesticides that get dumped on them. Common lawn fertilizers and weed killers account for most of the water pollution surrounding suburban areas. Maybe it's time to think outside the ubiquitous lawn box.

    mxk3, were you reading the same thread? I can't find in any previous post the inference that folks residing in the UK were better gardeners than those here in the US. Just that their gardening mentality might be a bit more thoroughly ingrained throughout the population. And also that a greater range of plant selection might be more easily accessible.

    No one was disparaging anyone's gardening ability. The discussion just turned from a discussion of what exactly is a wholesale nursery and what does it do to one that discussed the differences - and similarities - of gardening both here and across the pond.

    And I agree aesthetics are largely a matter of taste......not completely, but largely. Despite being a designer myself, I seldom frequent the Landscape Design forum any more because I have to bite my tongue and refrain from responding to a lot of the posts and the advice given. There IS such a thing as bad taste. And bad design :-)

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I am indeed reading the same thread as you. I interpreted a certain poster's posts as rather derogatory in regards to the aesthetics of US gardeners as well as ability.

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not to worry mxk3 - being passionate and engaged is a sign of being a truly committed gardener.....one thing this forum has shown me over the years is just how much and how deeply we feel about our....well I won't say hobby because that does not do this grand obsession justice....but personally, I am inclined to forgive every angry outburst, every disagreeable posting and every single argument as a hugely positive perspective on what we all care massively about. I LOVE that we can be subversive and digressive....I love that we garden in such different circumstances (one reason why I stay here rather than just posting on UK sites) and whatever differences we have as a group, there is this great common bond - priceless..

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Argh...so many threadlets to address.

    Kirimarie - I read your posts and obviously your opinions are valid based on your experiences. But, you never addressed what I specifically cited: walk around any average middle to upper income residential section of a randomly selected mid-to-large UK city. Walk around the same in the US. Anyone paying attention will spot huge differences in the amount of effort put into the personal landscapes, on average. It's not like I'm saying something crazy here that has never been said before. My parents aren't into gardens at all - I got the bug from my childhood neighbors who in a strange twist of fate were all avid gardeners. But every time they are in the British Isles they go on about how great the gardens are and my Mom will just take some pictures on a random street of people's gardens brimming with Fuchsia, Choisyas, Lilies, various vines, etc. A friend of mine who is also not at all into gardens went to Ireland with her erstwhile fiance and both said the gardens there were absolutely amazing. I'm sure they didn't visit botanical gardens, and by amazing they weren't talking about the fact there's a Phoenix canariensis in Cork. They were just talking about the gardens they saw in neighborhoods that were on their way to someplace.

    "I think the whole UK are "better" gardeners point of view is nonsense. "

    When you clearly spend more time at something, the world usually rewards you with the accolade of being "better" at it. The only scintilla of unfairness in what I say might be that, obviously, the climate makes it easier for the English to have the sort of gardens that they do than it is for most in the US. But that isn't to say it can't be done. I've visited private gardens in PA that are every bit as impressive as any I know of in England...(on a per unit land basis, of course...you can't really compete with Sissinghurst when your entire spread is the size of one walled garden there) but they might well be more work in PA. Doesn't have to be someplace moist: I once spent about an hour walking around the neighborhood near the Denver Botanic garden. I saw a couple very interesting private dry-climate gardens. Employees maybe? Probably just supporters who went to the plant sales. But most were just boring standard landscapes...blue spruce, some bland shrubs, whatever. This climate factor influences US regional differences, obviously, as gardengal noted. The whole west coast seemed a bit more gardenesque to me than the rest of the country, and I especially single out some parts of the Bay Area.

    Lawns...
    I agree in the west, the watering of ornamental lawns is absolutely a massive and foolish waste of water resources. (though I've gotten in huge arguments with some westerners about this...not online, in real life!) In the east, over maintained lawns are a different kind of environmental timebomb. Particular in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, where, years too late, the amt. of phosphorus in lawn fertilizer was finally restricted. But this doesn't mean lawns per se are the problem, it's just that people have a pig headed approach to them. I will never water my lawn. In the terrible summers of 2010, 2011, and 2012, it had periods of going brown. Big deal. I also don't fertilize it, because I don't need it to be a perfect shade of green, and fertilization would make it grow even faster than our often abundant rains do. Because I did some judicious broadcast spraying with trimec years ago, and - DUH - cut at the highest depth permitted by my Kubota MMM which is 4" on the scale but probably a little higher in practice - broadleaved weeds are so rare I can just spot treat them as needed. So, I am ecologically caring for my lawn. Many people are not, and too many people want theirs to look like a putting green.

    The house I posted, no, is not nearly the worst example of McMansion landscaping. Definitely not "horrible", in fact I would just call it average to mediocre. But the reason it's partcularly egregious is, sorry, someone who collects plants on such a massive scale, should by my estimation have known better. The formally trained person they hired (this I know from the real estate site where I snagged it) still got it wrong, which is actually more comical than some random local landscaping dude not knowing what he was doing. In fact, the university trained landscape architect producing something that pretty much says "local landscaping dude cramming plants in front so he can get the bill up to 25K". (thus feeding the wholesale industry beast which - to loop back - is the whole reason I branched out into this) It reminds me of the hilarious story of a mature Araucaria araucana - one of the only on the east coast - being cut down at a historic estate near Wilmington, DE, by a professional landscaper for "not looking English enough"(!). Seriously, you could not make up a funnier and truer anecdote about the ignorance of some in the US landscaping profession. It's priceless.

  • violetwest
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As a person new to gardening, I found information on landscape design not prevalent or easily accessible to the layperson. Most people here just slap turf or rock on their yards, so we get completely inappropriate lawns in the desert, or yards consisting of nothing but hot, chunky rock.

    there are no residential landscape architects in my area, and a few landscape designers whose prices are out of reach of most of the population here. And "landscapers" in my area just want to sell you stamped concrete.

    I educated myself with books and master gardeners, and GW, and am still learning. I expect I will always "still be learning." I'm still not sure what a "foundation planting" is--keeping in mind that xeriscaping is the way to go in my area, so emulation of PNW, East Coast, or UK gardens is ludicrous.

    Is this helpful to this discussion? I've lost track . . .

  • rusty_blackhaw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mxk3: "Taste is subjective."

    No it's not. ;)

  • catkin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What great points of view from everyone! Thanks for your replies.

  • mxk3 z5b_MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Eric: HA!

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