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| Yes I know I should probably post this on the conifer forum but those are some hardcore enthusiasts on there dealing in uncommon cultivars usually. I have been terrible at incorporating conifers into my perennial gardens. How have other conifer "amateurs" such as myself incorporated smaller sized conifers into your perennial gardens? Pics are appreciated. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by tsugajunkie z5 SE WI (My Page) on Tue, Oct 16, 12 at 19:22
| Oh, you could post on the conifer forum. We promise not to needle you over there. ;-) A picture of the area really helps to give folks an idea what your after. BTW, where in MI are you? tj |
Here is a link that might be useful: Similar question in the Cottage Garden Forum
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- Posted by Blossom_Designer 5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 16, 12 at 22:28
| Some specialty conifers can be very finicky. I've killed a few in Colorado. I have great luck with Dwarf Alberta Spruce, though. |
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| No specific location in mind. The only conifers I have aside from some junipers are dwarf alberta spruces which are disease ridden from mites. In the process of digging them out and getting rid of them which is a pain in the neck. I know that there are dwarf conifers but these are expensive plants that can take years to reach a decent size and in my perennial beds would be overgrown by other plants. So my question is what smallish but not-miniature conifers preferably with bluish or green golden foliage can be incorporated into small gardens. If not dwarf then what can conifers be kept to a reasonable size? I mean 3-4 ft dimensions. For example my neighbour has a beautiful old gold juniper in a tight spot. From what I read, that will eventually overwhelm his small front yard......or will it? Can it be kept in check? Im in SE MI and while Ken has been bugging me to go to Gee farms, its essentially a day trip which is impossible at this time for various reasons. Other large nurseries such as Bordines etc are closer. So any varieties suggested I;ve posted this question before somewhere but none of the suggested conifers are locally available. |
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- Posted by the_plant_geek z5 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 17, 12 at 9:47
| There are some good Junipers that won't get too absolutely huge. 'Sea of Gold' gets 4'x5'wide. 'Compressa' is upright and slow 5'x12-18" in 10 years. 'Blue Star' is 2-3'x 2-3' lots of low growing juniper also be found grafted on a standard which looks nice. I've used mugo pines like 'Slowmound' which stays a reliable 3'x3-4'. P. parviflora 'Adcock's Dwarf' is a nice globe to upright dwarf Japanese white pine. Dwarf white fir, Abies concolor 'Compacta' is a great slow growing fir that is pretty tough. 4-5' x 2-3' in 10 years. A. balsamea 'Nana' or 'Piccolo' are both good globe firs. Picea abies 'Hillside Upright' is a good upright norway spruce that is dwarf... honestly don't remember the 10 year growth on it. I think slightly bigger than a dwf alberta. There are some good dwarf white pine like 'Minuta' or 'Sea Urchin' that stay somewhat smaller. I found that 'Blue Shag' and 'Nana' can get fairly large, be prepared to have space for something 8'x8' if you like those. Same goes with P. sylvestris 'Nana' types. You really have a lot of options... stay away from miniature as they can get lost in a perennial garden if they aren't sited carefully. Luckily, minis tend to be harder to find at garden centers and tend to be expensive so they're easy to pick out. I highly recommend getting to a place like Gee's or Arrowhead Alpines just to see lots of crazy things you aren't familiar with. It's worth a day or even 2 day trip if neccessary. It's fall, so if it doesn't work out now do it in spring or early summer which is really better for seeing plants anyway. Having said that, Bordine's is a well known place in the hort industry and doing an online search of their inventory turns up a number of plants I've mentioned. The Plant Geek |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 17, 12 at 13:50
| In my previous garden, I had a lot of conifers integrated into my planting beds - the entire thing was pretty much a 'mixed border' including trees, shrubs, dwarf conifers, perennials and vines. Most of my selection were Chamaecyparis, especially the Hinokis and Lawson cypress. Lots of great dwarf cultivars to choose from and with a full range of foliage colors. I design for clients with mixed plantings that include conifers as well. Several that I use routinely are Chamaecyparis pisifera 'Golden Charm' or 'Gold Mops" (dwarf golden threadleaf), Pinus mugo 'Slowmound', and Juniperus squamata 'Blue Star'. I use bigger growing conifers, too - just depends on the setting. Personally, I just don't find a lot of appeal in a garden dedicated to just perennials....or roses......or whatever else have you :-) I much prefer to mix it up for greater interest. But that's just me. |
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| None.... yet. I'm too afraid. I just don't know what to make of the height descriptions and live in fear of planting something that will grow too big, a concern miclino pointed out with the neighbor. So I read and I research, and I read and I research, and I read and I research... and buy nothing.... Dee |
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| Lol digger that's me in a nutshell. I agree with gg above though that perennials alone seems incomplete without some evergreens |
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| Some wonderful reading on the topic: Designing with Perennials by Pamela Harper The Well-Designed Mixed Garden by The American Mixed Border by Ann Lovejoy |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 13:43
| There are some pretty helpful rules of thumb for estimating a mature conifer height based on rate of growth. Minis are considered to grow at a rate upto 1 inch per year; dwarfs 1-6 inches; intermediates 6-12 inches and full size trees at least 12 inches per year. To be honest, there is NO upper limit on these guys - they will keep on growing as long as they live but rate of growth will slow significantly once they approach their genetic potential. Personally, I would not shy away from including anything labeled as a "dwarf" - that rate of growth is slow enough and so manageable that it would be many years before it would outgrow its space. And these are often very movable specimens as well, should they truly get bigger than desired. As mentioned previously, "minis" tend to get lost in the chaos of a mixed border unless used as edging - these are better suited to a rock garden or containers/troughs. I've used both dwarfs and intermediates in my garden designs - the larger growing (but maybe not full sized) conifers can be used very effectively as well, as long as proper consideration is given to their siting. |
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| Gardengal, I always find your information to be very accurate and helpful, but you haven't assuaged my fears (yet!). I don't trust the size descriptions (because of the wild variation) and I just don't want to plant something that will grow 3 to 4 times bigger than planned, even if it is in 50 years, lol. For instance, chamaecyparis Crippsii. I just did a quick search, and at four different sites, found four different heights: 5 feet; 8 to 10 feet; 10 to 15 feet; 30 feet. To me, that's too big a discrepancy to make a decision. If I have a spot that needs a 5 foot plant, and it grows to 30 (again, even over a long time) then it will be the wrong plant for the spot. I fully admit to having difficulty making decisions to begin with, lol, but this kind of stuff just makes it all the harder. And so, sadly, I am coniferless... Dee |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 14:57
| I'm with Dee on this one. Also, there is the problem that the main reason I would like conifers in my garden is for winter interest, and something buried under a foot of snow isn't very interesting. So the 'acceptable' size range isn't all that big. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Oct 19, 12 at 18:05
| OK - let me try this again :-) DO NOT pay attention to reported size estimates! You have no idea on what they are basing that info - a 5 or 10 year growth period (often considered the expected purchaser residency time), a 20 year mature size or the potential lifetime size. What you should be researching is rate of growth and/or growth habit. 'Crippsii' is listed as having a "moderate" rate or to 12" annually, so it can be expected to get pretty darn big in time - 20-30' would be a good 'mature' size estimate but more than 30' is possible over an extended time frame. OTOH, Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Kosteri' is a true dwarf and might put on 3-4" a year. After more than 15 years in my old garden, it was only about 3.5' tall. Only a very tiny perennial garden would have difficulty accommodating a slow growing conifer like this. Same with something like 'Blue Star' juniper, the largest of which I've seen was not more than 3' tall and maybe as wide. Nest spruces are another, very slow growing possibility. Guys, this is not rocket science! Folks design and install mixed border plantings that include conifers all the time and in all climates and under normal maintenance practices, they never get out of control. Are you really worried about what size it's gonna be in 50 years?? Are you going to be around to fret about it? And remember you are only planting in the ground, not in concrete......if it doesn't work, get rid of it or move it somewhere it will. Of course you are free to do whatever you want in your own garden but I think you are missing a lot of design opportunities and extended seasonal interest by not including conifers in your garden. |
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| I feel that it doesn't matter if I will be around or not - SOMEONE will be. I see too many examples of beautiful old trees and conifers that were planted too close to a house or structure years and years ago that have to be or have been taken down because they are hurting the structure. Down the street from me is a very old house with some kind of conifer on either side of the door. They have literally cut through the conifers to get in the door - and do so every year. A nice little archway cut through to the door. You can hardly see the front of the house. They should really be taken down as I'm sure it's not good for the house. Extreme example, I know, but that's what sticks in my mind. I also have limited sun and don't really want to plant anything that will get taller than 10 feet or so, otherwise it will just add more shade. Actually, GG, you pointed out my other dilemma - conifers that are too SMALL, lol! I don't know, it seems like they are either 2 feet tall or 30! And for some reason, while I am afraid the larger ones will get REALLY large, I think the smaller ones will stay too small, lol. I never seem to think that the smaller ones will grow bigger than described, but I'm afraid the larger ones will. I know, it's me, not them.... :) |
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| I dont think Im quite as concerned about what happens 50 years from now. There are enough of the cypress dwarf varieties but what I want is a blue of the picea pungens kind. For example, the problem with dwarf blue conifers of the picea kind is that they are not locally available. And if I buy online, I am getting a tiny plant better suited for a rock garden as you said. The locally available picea pungens would be kinds like montgomery which have the potential to get quite big....I think you could prune them to stay small but don't say that on the conifer forum as I think its heresy and not considered good practice...or am I wrong? And so Im stuck..... Think this is a great thread though and thanks for all the information gg. |
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| Sure you could prune but you need to have it timed right. Most conifers won't let you get away with the same mistakes you can make on other trees, such as cutting back too much and getting dead spots. Also it's harder to keep a natural look when pruning. I say find something at a decent price, enjoy it for several years, and then cut it down when it gets too big. Then try something new! Also don't crowd the conifers with a bunch of lush perennials, give them a little breathing room... Most conifers will die out in the shaded areas and you'll be left looking at dead spots when the other stuff dies back. |
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| Well, if you’re really concerned about size, try a Tsuga canadensis (Coles Prostrate Hemlock). This one is at least 20 years old and occupies a space about 2x2 feet. It’s about 6 inches tall and has never been pruned. My Paxistima canbyi is starting to creep too close, so I have to do some digging next spring.
Kevin |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Oct 21, 12 at 14:04
| I think kato has exactly the right attitude - find one or two you like, plant them and if they outgrow the space you have designated for them, then simply get rid of them. I know sometimes this sounds like heresy too - removing perfectly good plants - but gardens should be looked at as flexible and evolving. There is no reason why you can't remove something that has either outgrown its welcome or you decide you just don't like. I figure I've switched out pretty much everything in my garden at least once, with the exception of the large trees. You can always advertise the unwanted plant on craigslist or freecycle if you want to save it. Pruning conifers to keep them small(er) is tricky - some will respond to this well and others won't appreciate it at all. miclino, the blue spruce you should be looking for is Picea pungens 'Sester Dwarf' - it is just a highly scaled down version of the traditional Colorado blue spruce. The one in the attached link is only about 5' tall. Unless a local nursery could order for you, you might have to do mail order. Another I really like is Picea sitchensis 'Papoose'. Asking for suggestions on the Conifer forum may be a good idea as well - those guys really know their little trees :-) I am surprised that Ken hasn't jumped into this thread as he is a serious conifer grower in addition to hostas and other perennials. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Sester Dwarf
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| Ken is probably mad at me for not taking a day off to go to gee farms which is a conifer lovers dream nursery. It would solve my problem but I just cannot find an entire day to go to a nursery. |
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| "...then simply get rid of them..." We can't all afford to buy these plants and then cut them down in a few years. It's not like moving a clump of monarda that's outgrown its allotted space, or moving a hosta that is bigger (or smaller) than you thought it would be. :) |
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- Posted by tsugajunkie z5 SE WI (My Page) on Thu, Oct 25, 12 at 18:04
| Blue, eh? Gardengal already suggested 'Blue Star' juniper. It should be available everywhere. Another that I've seen at many local nurseries is Picea pungens 'St. Mary's Broom' (in the foreground of this spring pic). My 15 year old plant is about 18 inches high and 36 inches across.
tj |
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| Beautiful pic. I started this thread hoping to see pics where folks have incorporated conifers into perenial gardens, not necessarily for plant selection although the advice in this thread has been great in that regard. I have had blue star juniper in the past, its just not the same as having a picea with those great blue needles like the one in your own pic. I've had my eye on Sester's dwarf for a while now. |
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| Beautiful combination, tsugajunkie! Very nice indeed! Dee |
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| I just saw Sester among the early christmas plants at the nursery. it is meant to be a pot plant or living xmas tree, I'm sure.this nursery would never carry it in its regular inventory. I also saw a "Hoops" blue spruce, highly recommended for it's blueness, but don't know that I have a place to put it... and gave up my week long struggle deciding whether I really had a space for a half price metasequoia "gold rush" the only place right now would be too close to powerlines, and the impending hurricane winds and some recent GW comments reminded it me it would foolish to put a beautiful expensive tree in harm's way. Having given up that dream, St. Mary's Broom may still be left at the same nursery. Dee- and others with conifer fright- screw up your courage. I have had arborvitae "smaarg" in my garden for 10 years and it is a perfect height, lovely shape, great color. Two anchor corners of the bed. I have had chamycypress obtusa in the center, also for ten years, and its lacy fronds make everything look better. I think I could have used something smaller, and this year is the first year I lightly pruned the tips a couple of inches. And it is highly unlikely that anything labeled "dwarf" will ever dwarf anything in your garden, even in 20 years, unless the perennials themselves are 5 inches high. At that height, weeds dwarf them more quickly and persistently than a dwarf conifer. It took me nearly ten years in this garden to add conifers; I think I understand the feeling of insecurity. In my case, moving into another plant group was an outcome of my maturing gardening skills and sensibility that paralleled the maturation of the garden. The garden NEEDED the solidity, gravity and permanence of conifers. A deciduous shrub, a big grass, or a big pot just wouldn't work. There were places where the garden needed to be "held down" and anchored. Keep us posted, especially if you get some conifers into your Edens. Marie/idabean |
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| My rural area gives me a lot more area to fill than in a suburban yard, but the same ideas can be scaled down. I have one very large bed which I wanted to have some year-round screening and interest but not exceed 15-20 feet in height. I have several large shrubs including 3 types of conifers with more than one of each variety. Here it is in December. The two photos are about a week apart, with a light snowfall in between. In midwinter there is often enough snow so that the bed is half buried, so if I planted smaller evergreens I'd lose the winter interest.
In mid-spring with the gold Techny arbor vitae just peaking out from behind a blue spruce to the left and several shrubs in the bed center.
In early summer
and from another angle, showing that the perennials do have a significant role in the bed during the growing season.
I have other evergreens in addition to the conifers, including a clumping bamboo, some groundcovers, and several rhododendrons. Since we have a full 6 deciduous months and usually at least three of those have little or no snow, I like to have as much color available as possible during this time.
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| Dont think its conifer fright really. I have arborvitae and vertical junipers. These tend to have a limited footprint though. I think to summarize, the smaller picea are not easily available and almost too small ie get lost unless they are in the border, the larger ones....well just get too large. For those of us with limited space, its a matter of being willing to sacrifice several plants for one. |
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| "...the smaller picea are not easily available and almost too small ie get lost unless they are in the border, the larger ones....well just get too large..." Bingo! Too small or too large, lol. That's the dilemma! Well, at least for me! Beautiful pics, nhbabs, of a beautiful yard. If I had that kind of room I wouldn't be so worried! :) |
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| I started incorporating conifers in my garden to give me color and structure during those months when there isn't much going on. Those months when everything looks brown and dead, like now and early spring. After I started adding them I realized that I prefer foliage to flowers and now prefer to buy things that will give me more than a month's worth of beauty. |
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