The best time to do it is when the materials are available and you have the time.

Lots of old posts on this board on this subject - do a search and you should be able to find them.

I think that logic applies if your goal is to keep the ground from freezing and thawing throughout winter which is bad for the plants as we all know. If you put them on before the ground freezes, that would simply delay the whole process because the leaves would act like an insulator. At least, that's how I understand it. But I guess, what difference does that make? I mean do the plants suffer because the ground doesn't freeze quickly enough?

Personally, if I have enough leaves I store them in bags and keep them until the next season when I use them as a mulch. In addition, if you put the leaves on the garden in the fall and don't take them off in the spring,it's going to keep the ground from warming up. So if you don't want that to happen, you're going to need to rake them all up again. That's double work in my book. I don't like double work.

This is a weird season. We had snow yesterday, but most of the trees are still holding onto their leaves. My big, old Linden tree out here is still green as grass.

Kevin

Now should be fine. You want the plants to be completely dormant.

The best time to do it is when the materials are available

Given my supply that could be anytime in the year...which we do, but I am interested in the current thinking re this practice as it relates to the use of leaves for this time of the year

Lots of old posts on this board on this subject - do a search and you should be able to find them.

If people followed this directive each time, these boards would not be very active.

This post was edited by rouge21 on Thu, Nov 7, 13 at 13:16

Good post Kevin.

I was thinking that if one puts down such mulch too early, while the temps are not too cold, then rodents might be more inclined to make winter nests in these insulating leaves. And so leaving one's perennial garden bare until consistently cold temps might have encouraged unwanted animals to have found shelter elsewhere earlier...just a thought.

I use such mulch this time of year in the hope that it will help protect perennials from the extremes of winter weather and so there will be a greater chance that our plants will overwinter successfully. I also find that if I use a significant cover of chopped leaves I am less likely to prematurely venture into the garden the following spring as I am unable to see where *anything* is coming through until a bit later on in say...April.

(For me it is a bonus that such organic material also helps plants feed the following season).

Rouge, I usually mulch (start with heavy wood mulch around tender plantings and then leaves around tougher stuff) starting in December and usually end up finishing around the new year. By then we have had a few nights of frozen temperatures. I grow a lot of things that are prone to fungal disease (some roses for example), and if I put on the mulch early when some things are still growing (including fungal disease) and then have days of 50-60+ temperature, the fungal disease just ends up overwintering in the mulch. You're also completely right on your point. I ended up putting mulch down in early November last year and had voles everywhere, even in my then tiny urban plot of land. If I do it late in the year then most of the furry things have found elsewhere to the stay warm for the winter.

Thanks 'Karolina' for the confirmation re unwanted rodents and your other experiences. And so I think I will put down most of the leaves starting in later November and into early December. (I am in zone 4)

watch for answers from peeps whose ground doesnt freeze...

anyway ... its pretty simply in my mind.. [or is my mind is simple ..lol]

in the great white north.. the base concern.. is those warming periods ... both fall and spring ....

the key to survival is: GET IT DORMANT.. AND KEEP IT DORMANT ...

you never want to cover an non-dormant plant... you are delaying its natural cycle...

and you dont want to cover things.. and then get some freak heat wave ...

so do it late enough that everything is dormant..

but soon enough .. that it doesnt freeze into a frozen pile .. lol.. been there.. done that ...

so whats the other half of the equation???? ==>>> KEEPING IT DORMANT ...

your leaves are going to keep the soil frozen later into spring... keeping your plant from thawing in some bizarre warm spell in feb or so ...

and also going to retard early sprouting... to avoid some late frosts or freezes ...

uncovered.. dark soil.. heats extremely easily.. even in mid winter.. if the sun hits it.... that is what causes winter heave .. a repeated freeze/thaw cycle ... plants.. depending on root depth can handle it INfrequently .... but if repeated.. plants simply die ... usually an early spring root rot ...

sooooo ... get them dormant.. tuck them in.. keep them dormant ... and rest easy ...

and this all presumes.. you know what a properly shredded leaf is ... nothing bigger than a thumbnail... especially the soggy type leaves.. like maple ...

ken

I've spent way too much of my gardening life around Philadelphia to take seriously any dangers of freeze-thaw.

I do take seriously the dangers of small rodents. I have also learned to take seriously the dangers of neighbor dogs digging in search of said small rodents.

so do it late enough that everything is dormant..

but soon enough .. that it doesnt freeze into a frozen pile

I agree Ken and I will do exactly this. Thanks.

All was going well with your post and then this:

and this all presumes.. you know what a properly shredded leaf is

Sheesh Ken..

of course many of us know.. as i assumed you did ...

but i figure a vast majority of newbie readers ..never chime in..

and i want to make sure they understand.. its not just suck them off the lawn and dump them on your flowers...

you need to actually shred them ....

i killed a lot of stuff my first year.. dumping maple leaves on top of plants.. they suffocated them ... they became an anaerobic mat ... didnt allow air flow ....

ken

This is actually the first year I have ever shredded my leaves, so I am hoping for great things.
However, for some 20+ years, I have used unshredded, mostly hardwood leaves in extremely large quantities, with nary a problem. None of this is rocket science - it's just lazy composting.

I have no doubt Ken that (in my zone at least) for a plant that is fully dormant unshredded leaves applied as mulch is much preferable to nothing at all.

I apply my shredded leaves after the ground freezes because I've had problems with voles. I don't want to give them a nice comfy cozy place to hunker down for the winter. Once the ground is frozen, most of them have settled elsewhere for the season, so then I put down my leaves. Not very comfortable for me, lol, since this sometimes means I'm out there in January putting down my mulch, but better for my garden.

Dee

Preventing rodent condos is a noble idea but anyone who has seen the tunnels appear from under melting snow piles knows that rodents like voles are far from dormant over the winter. Mulches of any kind and at any time of year will make them cozy and if they find a nice clump of perennials and bulbs to chow down on they might even spend New Years starting a new little vole family under the snow. So save your fingers and mulch in the warmer weather and hope a cat or fox moves in.
Wait before mulching fall growers like pansies. Unless they're frozen they'll still try to grow in the cooler weather and unlike dormant perennials you risk spindly growth and rot under the leaves.

Hmm, what you are saying sounds logical, but I stand by my winter mulching! I've seen the difference in the damage to my beds when I mulched in the fall when it was still warm and when I waited till the ground froze, and it was enough to make me brave the winter cold and mulch then. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but I'll still save my leaves till the ground freezes!

:)
Dee

Dee I like the way you think! There's a real good chance I'm wrong and winter mulching is better. There are always so many other factors going on that even something that might work in my my garden might be a flop somewhere else. Keep trying new things for yourself is probably the best advice in gardening.
I just wanted to use the words 'rodent condo' in a post ;)

correct..

when i did this.. i did NOT have a rodent issue ...

and to be specific.. is was BURYING hybrid T roses... which would not otherwise survive a MI winter ... hence the need for the refined product ... air.. etc ...

if we are just talking about covering soil ... the product need not be so processed ...

ken

You guys are overthinking all this. Just put down the leaves already if you want to. Like I said: When you have the materials and you have the time.

Look at the forests: No one shreds the leaves, the leaves fall when they fall and where they may, and the forests are magnificent.

Look at mulch: Do you go around raking off all the mulch in the fall so the ground can freeze and they rake it all back on or apply new after the ground is forzen? Probably not (and if you do...well...I wish I had that much time on my hands). What's the difference if the ground has a covering of "mulch" vs "leaves"? It's still covering the ground, the ground is going to freeze when it's time, and the critters are going to find homes where they may. I would suggest, however, not covering the crowns of plants with anything nor mulching right up against tree/shrub trunks, but otherwise - just throw the sh*t down already.

Shredded vs nonshredded: I use both. I prefer shredded, I think it looks nicer, but I've dumped on non-shredded leaves many a time and things have been just fine.

Why do we have this argument every year? Sigh...

Just put down the leaves already if you want to. Like I said: When you have the materials and you have the time.

From this thread I see good reasons to consider not doing it just at any time.

Why do we have this argument every year?

This thread looks nothing like an argument...rather good thoughtful worthwhile posts.

You and I are a bit alike I think; with our gardens shutting down we are both feeling a bit cranky ;)

LOL, Kato! Unfortunately, I could probably use the term "rodent condo" very easily in describing my gardens. Just wish I had thought of it, lol!

I don't think this is an argument, and I don't think anyone is overthinking anything. Depending on where you live and what your situation (weather, climate, soil conditions, type of garden, rodent infestation, if you have time, if you have physical limitations) there are indeed several options for applying mulch.

It also depends on the type of mulch, and here we are talking shredded leaves. In my garden, if the leaves are well shredded, they are well gone by fall, so there is no need to rake them up, let the ground freeze, and reapply. They're gone. Sometimes they're gone by August and I need to throw some down then and still reapply in December.

And I think the degree of shreddedness (is that a word?) does matter as well. I have huge oak leaves, and if left whole on the beds, come spring (or earlier!) there is one wet, soggy huge mess on the garden, and it does impede plant growth and sometimes damage plants. And then I just have to get out there in February or March to rake them up and THEN apply mulch, because there is no way these huge wet leaves will work as mulch for me.

I have a hand-held vacuum shredder that does not do nearly as fine a job shredding as my mulcher. But I put these less-shredded leaves on the (empty) vegetable gardens, and use my mulcher (which is more work to use) to shred more finely for my perennial beds. I think the finer shred looks nicer, breaks down more quickly, and feeds the soil more quickly therefore as well. And I can control more precisely how close the leaves are to the plant crowns.

For my situation, it's what works for me and I'm willing to take the time (and be out in my garden in December or January and let my neighbors think I'm nuts, lol) to accomplish it.

To each their own.

:)
Dee
P.S. I should add that since I do have mostly oaks, my leaves do fall quite late (March, sometimes, lol) and so that may factor a tiny bit into me putting down the mulch later, but probably not much. I start shredding in October and leave them in bags till I'm ready to put down. And even in the years when I've gotten deliveries of shredded leaves from landscapers, I still hold off to put them down.

I'm very jealous of some friends who have tiny, dry, shriveled up maple leaves, all down on the ground already. One of my friends thought I was nuts when I told her two weeks ago how jealous I was of her maple leaves all blown up against her foundation, lol!

I'm not cranky. This topic gets re-hashed every fall. By the time it gets to, oh 30-40 posts or so - it will turn into an argument. Yep.

Well until that time there will be useful posts.

OK, I have a question (and I'm not trying to argue or create any controversy) :

When you guys are talking about putting down leaves or mulch or whatever in Dec - Jan - Feb, don't you usually have snow cover? Do you put it over the snow?

One of the big problems around here with the notion of putting down anything after the ground freezes is we often can have major snow fall BEFORE the ground really freezes - and the snow sticks around because the snow just keeps coming. Usually it doesn't turn really cold until after the snow is here.

Just curious

Kevin

I put them down when they fall off the trees while I am fall cleaning and cutting back. I cannot imagine storing them to apply at some future date or whatever, seems like a lot of extra bother and work. I figure since Mother Nature drops them then, who am I to argue?

This must vary from one zone to the next because I have never even considered this "when is the right time" business. I do it when I have the time, usually that means I start the marathon on a nice pleasant weekend after the first ones start dropping, which they just started doing, and I keep doing that until they have finally quit falling. I would never store them (where?) and wait until after a snow, that sounds like a wet mess.

Oak leaves do not shred, they just wad up and clog my shredder. I toss a lot and use others if I really need to heavily protect something because they don't clump either. They fall all winter long until spring, its endless cleaning. There is a long bare strip of ground next door between their house and chain link fence where I dump them every year about 2+ft deep and it keeps anything from growing there except an occasional pecan tree. Its a good way to get rid of them and I can get compost from underneath when I need it because they slowly break down so they do double duty and don't burden my trash cans. This goes on all winter long because they make deep piles in our driveway, on our flat roof (We have to clean that too to keep them from clogging the drain holes) and they collect all over the yard endlessly. My husband and I both hate this huge tree. Sorry, I know lots of people love them.

In early spring at the first signs of greening up which happens in late Feb or early March here, I rake them out when I'm doing my spring cleanup, ornamental grass cutting and trimming back what I didn't trim in fall.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:26

Kevin, even though I am a z4 it seems to be quite predictable for the past several years that we get very little snowfall prior to Christmas and I would bet no snow in November (for example last year we got no snow until a big drop on December 26); and then we were in up to our waist until April.

So right now our many bags of leaves are in the garage keeping warm ;) and I will spread them onto the garden in the last week of November.

Thanks, Kevin,
You bring up the issue that always comes to mind when this subject comes up. I always wait as long as I can, but I hate to wait until the day before a predicted snowstorm and then rush out and try to get everything covered. I use a lot of cardboard boxes to cover plants, so don't have to use mulch on everything. I know, a lot of people think that looks too trashy; but I have done that for years and it works real well. This is personal, but I don't see a lot of beauty in winter gardens. They are usually covered with snow anyway and most of the boxes are covered with snow. Hurry up spring !!!!! I am new to this forum, but have enjoyed it very much since my kids bought me a computer a year ago.I have 2 1/2 acres with 20 flower beds with over 100 different perennials. Being 81, I don't have the speed to get things done as quickly as you younger guys and gals do; so I get as much done as I can when the weather is nice.
Really enjoy this forum.

P.S. No, I don't have much covered, yet. We have still had a lot of things blooming, but the 23 degrees last night probably did most of them in. The mums out in the open still look OK, though.

LOL, Kevin, yes I guess those of you up in the Great White North would have to worry more about snowfall when considering when to mulch. Here in balmy southern CT I guess it's not such a concern. I actually have been caught by surprise by a snowfall now and then (like the Great Halloween Blizzard of '11, lol) but for the most part those early snowfalls don't last long and I can go out in a few days and mulch after the snow has melted and before any really big snowfalls come along.

Great Plains, I feel your pain! Like I said above, I have oaks - about 40 of them, including about 4 triple-trunked big ones and as I said the leaves are still falling in March, like yours. What a pain. But as long as they are dry, I have no problem shredding them. I just keep them in leaf bags in the garage or even lined up outside of it. I do worry sometimes that the bags may turn into a "rodent condo" (d'you see that Kato, lol?) but I just worry about that while I'm actually dumping the leaves - don't want to put in my hands and pull out a family of voles, lol! So far so good....

Wayne, I think this is the first I've seen of you so welcome to the forum!

:)
Dee

diggerdee, we have a Pin Oak planted just to the east of our driveway like a tall overbearing skyscraper. I resent the shade and the way it stains the driveway with its zillion acorns too but oak leaves are supposed to be the best for not rotting the crowns of certain plants or so I hear. They always recommend them for rose bushes. You must have a better shredder or crisper leaves than us, you can't even crack these leaves by bending them, they just snap back into shape no matter how you wad them up.

Wayne, you clarified for me what it is you all are talking about exactly or at least I think so. Do you mean covering the entire plants in the whole bed under a blanket of leaves? We don't have to do that here, we just mulch the ground and sometimes around a less hardy plant that is best left untrimmed until spring. The leaves are much more useful in summer here so we always try to save them for when it gets hot and dry, which comes early and lasts a long time. The payoff is we do get a lot of garden winter interest because gardens can still look very nice although in a much more subtle & quieter way. I got snapped at here once and was told I don't live where we get a "real winter" but that is not true at all. We get a very real winter. That means cold, very very dry, static electricity that is downright painful, damaging ice storms because its too warm to snow and lots of wickedly cold brutal winds that take your breath away. I would never be able to keep a bed covered like that, the leaves would end up down the street within a week.

In Colorado they get winter burn on pines and use pine boughs for protection on plants and burlap around the pines, spruce trees etc. I have used burlap before with safety pins because otherwise it blows right off.

I'm in the 'apply the leaves when they are available' category. Since most of the leaves are in the backyard, they are only applied to the backyard beds - which are woodland-type beds so the plants are happy with the leaves (and pine needles). Most of the leaves are from the white ash so are relatively small. They get raked straight into the beds without being chopped first. The other main backyard tree is a red oak. About 30% of those leaves hang on the tree until early March. Those ones, when they fall, collect in the south alley and along the south fence so get vacuumed up, shredded, and dumped on beds in the spring. When/if we lose the ash, there will just be pine needles and oak leaves to deal with. I doubt that will change how we deal with them.

In the front garden there is not a significant leaf-fall and we don't bother mulching there. We do leave a lot of the current year's folage to die back naturally and feed the soil. Other than that, the front garden survives just fine without mulching with anything.

All the leaves in this picture were added to the beds by the end of October..
{{gwi:281112}}

That carpet of leaves looks nice!

I've read that if you apply mulch after the ground freezes, this will help thwart rodents. But I don't worry about that because I sprinkle the castor oil solution on the front gardens in the fall, to prevent the moles and voles over the winter. This has worked very well the past couple years.

I do clear all leaves out of gutters and back from house, but just let the leaves that blow into the gardens stay there for the winter as a natural mulch. Also leave most of the leaf litter lay in the back yard, for a natural effect. This is easy, plus the leaves provide habitat for overwintering insects (such as bumblebee nests), and attracts birds.

Um.....I don't apply leaves to protect the plants. I ( well really my DH does all the work....I'm very spoiled in the leaf category!) mow or rake up the leaves (we have lots of oak) and they all go through the chipper shredder and finely chopped. We apply whenever there's a free weekend and when most of the leaves are off the trees. Probably this weekend. I do it more to enrich the soil in the beds, not so much for winter protection.

I used to use salt marsh hay for winter protection. Applied after the ground froze and lifted in the spring. Lots of work and I found the garden emerged much later in spring.

I don't want to feel the need to "protect" my plants. If they can't cut it with some freezing and thawing, well I won't plant that variety again. I've never felt I've had any major losses in the garden without winter mulching, or mulching "at the right time". Another garden rule I guess I break!

Kevin,
Here in Central PA, we rarely get a long period of snow before January and even afterward, it doesn't stick around for very long.

This was a very interesting thread to read. We have a great many oak trees, which is both a blessing and a curse. The huge amount of rain this spring and early summer caused a burgeoning population of acorns. If left on the lawn or in the gardens, I'd be pulling out baby oaks next spring as the temperatures rise. So we have to do major clean-up in the fall. Just finished, as a matter of fact. One year I asked hubby to leave the oak leaves on the shade garden on the theory that it would make the plants happier in the spring, prevent weeds, etc. Only problem was the leaves blew all over the place whenever it was windy! Since there's no way to separate the leaves from the acorns, it all has to be removed. However, we do use the leaves chopped up by our lawn mower and saved in the bagger as rose protection. Hubby puts them in small garbage bags and piles them all over the pruned roses. (We also put soil over the crowns.) I'm one of the few VT gardeners who successfully overwinters most of our hybrid tea roses, and it's thanks to the bags of leaves.

My compromise solution is to lay down mulch after a few hard frosts. Rodentiae will have sought winter quarters elsewhere, and it will still be mild enough to work outdoors comfortably.

I use a leaf shredder. But most plants do fine with no mulch.

I let the fallen leaves stay where they fall. The perennials seem to like it and their green leaves stick up above the natural leaf cover. I dump finished compost on the veggie beds for next spring, and the leaves collected from the "lawn" are in a pile waiting for next summer's composting. I used to shred but it's too much extra work at this point in my life.

I let the fallen leaves stay where they fall. The perennials seem to like it and their green leaves stick up above the natural leaf cover. I dump finished compost on the veggie beds for next spring, and the leaves collected from the "lawn" are in a pile waiting for next summer's composting. I used to shred but it's too much extra work at this point in my life.

I used to shred but it's too much extra work at this point in my life.

Me too; but I get *all* of my shredded leaves from neighbors.

My neighbors are also happy to bring me their shredded leaves and using a mulching mower with a bag collector makes quick work of the leaves in my yard. With a forecast of up to three inches of snow overnight I spread most of my bags yesterday. Only had a light dusting of snow and still have more bags of shredded leaves coming. What doesn't go on the beds will get added to the compost pile. So this year I am doing both, spreading before and after the ground is frozen.

Regarding the neighbors, after years of asking for their leaves they now come to me and ask if I want them. My favorite is the guy who cuts one neighbor's lawn drives his cart to the edge of one of my beds and dumps them. Two or three cartloads later I use my rake to spread them.