I AM SO P*SSED! I tried to hit 'Contact Them' but I cannot get it to work. They do include their Mailing Address, Phone Number, and Fax. What do I do??? Somebody please tell me what I ought to do to get them to take it down. I have no clue what to do in this sort of situation. Maybe send them a letter? I don't think I can face talking to these people on the phone.

Here is the page with my picture: STOLEN PICTURE

Please give advice...
CMK - Christin

you are pretty close.. closer than i am anyway ...

ken

Also, check out this flicker discussion on use of others photos without permission. I'm no longer up on all the legalities so can't vouch for the accuracy of the info given. There are suggestions and links to other information about how to handle it. http://www.flickr.com/groups/lagroup/discuss/72157622269104469/

Good luck and let us know what happens.

-Ken, what a wonderful idea. Road trip to OR anyone? Bring your favorite blunt object... ;-]

-harleylady, thank you so much for finding that e-mail address. I just sent them an e-mail. It was pretty diplomatic, and somehow I managed not to swear up a storm. I will let all of you know what happens.

If I do not hear back from them do you guys think I should contact GW? I think this is the most likely place the #&@*$&! at that site could have stolen it from. What do you think??
CMK

Good luck and let us know what happens!

LL

Since the picture is hosted on Photobucket, then that is likely were it was taken from.
This paragraph is from the Terms of Use on photobucket.

6.1 Photobucket does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, applications, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post on or through the Photobucket Services. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Photobucket Services, you hereby grant to Photobucket and other users a non-exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free, worldwide, limited license to use, modify, delete from, add to, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce and translate such Content, including without limitation distributing part or all of the Site in any media formats through any media channels, except Content marked "private" will not be distributed outside the Photobucket Services. Photobucket and/or other Users may copy, print or display publicly available Content outside of the Photobucket Services, including without limitation, via the Site or third party websites or applications (for example, services allowing Users to order prints of Content or t-shirts and similar items containing Content). After you remove your Content from the Photobucket Website we will cease distribution as soon as practicable, and at such time when distribution ceases, the license to such Content will terminate. If after we have distributed your Content outside the Photobucket Website you change the Content’s privacy setting to "private," we will cease any further distribution of such "private" Content outside the Photobucket Website as soon as practicable.

I'm not sure that there is much you can do, except contact them and hope that they will be nice enough to take it down from their site.

I understand your anger, but not sure there's much you can do. I enjoy posting photos, but when I post one to GW or a photo hosting websites, then I don't expect them to be copyright protected. I usually post low-res photos, not the best ones.

Ever since I started my PBucket account some five years ago I have had it on 'private'. A few weeks ago I changed it to 'public' because I wasn't able to e-mail a friend a working link without making it public. I have since changed it back.

I know I did indeed make the picture public by posting on this very public forum, but what is it to send an e-mail to the person that took the pic and ask if they could use it on their website? If they have a nursery and are selling a plant they should have no trouble with getting thier own picture of it. While giving credit to the pic might have lessened my anger, it still would not have made it right since I wasn't contacted first. This is not some special picture that is a one-of-a-kind work. I do not want royalties or recompence. I am angry because it is wrong- it is a matter of prinsipal and integrity.

I have always been the type of person that will run from confrontations, but by backing down from this I am sending the message that it is ok to take something without asking. This may not be legally wrong, but it is morally.

Thanks for the info zubababy and Mindy. How does one go about encrypting and getting a copyright? How much does it cost? Do you have to do that for every pic, or is there some way you could automatically get all of them protected?

-gottagarden, thanks for your support ;-) Hopefully this can be resolved in a quiet manner first. But good idea for plan B...

I will let you guys know what happens.
CMK

I like the idea of all of us e-mailing them and complaining. Maybe we should all do it on Tuesday, if you don't get an apology. Let us know!

LL

Another person on a different forum saw his own rock garden design show up on a nursery's internet website. He was equally upset, as would I be. I understand what you are saying.........legally maybe somebody can 'lift' your image off a website, but morally it's a different matter. Alls you might have wanted was the formality of granting permission, and maybe getting some credit.

My operation is on our land, and when I am closed for the season, it's nothing to look out my kitchen window and seem people on our private grounds milling about my pond or plantings (not part of the business in any way) taking pictures and measurments. They don't even appear to be embarrassed when I ask them what they're doing. I guess it's cheaper than paying me to do a design. Huh?

A quick search shows the nursery being discussed as having a sound reputation for customer service and quality plants. In business in Oregon since 1998, and in California many years prior to that. There doesn't seem to be anything 'bogus' or shady about them that I can turn up, they have good reviews in Garden Watchdog (limited), Oregon Travel and I found an article from 2003 Oregonian recommending them.

They are also listed on GW Garden Bazaar.

I'm not clear on what the legal issues are concerning photos posted on GW, but it seems to me there was something of an uproar a few years back when iVillage claimed rights to anything posted here.

CMK, I'm wishing you a better day tomorrow - we'd like to know what you find out next.

It is true that a notice strengthens the protection, by warning people, and by allowing one to get more and different damages, but it is not necessary. If it looks copyrighted, you should assume it is. This applies to pictures, too. You may not scan pictures from magazines and post them to the net, and if you come upon something unknown, you shouldn't post that either.

The correct form for a notice is:

"Copyright [dates] by [author/owner]"

You can use C in a circle © instead of "Copyright" but "(C)" has never been given legal force. The phrase "All Rights Reserved" used to be required in some nations but is now not legally needed most places. In some countries it may help preserve some of the "moral rights."

Citing sources is basic grade-school teaching.

Now it is indeed possible that the nursery is not directly to blame, as a third-party may be involved. But in any case, that should not be an excuse.

There's alwasy the chance too that I could be a little defensive of any honest small business owner in this economy - this has been a devasting year for some and I'd hate to see any lose sales over what could potentially be a quickly resolved misunderstanding. I make a regular purchase from a breeder overseas and his knowledge of plants, horticulture is flawless - his grasp of computer world, website design...not so hot :)

From another point of view, which others here I know can relate to, we desperately need all the good small nurseries and they are already struggling to stay alive in these hard times. Let's not drive any out of business unnecessarily over a problem that can be rectified with civility.

I wrote in my e-mail to them that I did not want to defame their buisness- that I wanted to resolve this quickly and without fuss if possible. As you will notice, I did not even use the name of the buisness when I wrote my post. I am not out for blood here! I made contact with them so this could be ironed out. They do indeed have a good review on watchdog, so (like I said before) I hope they are reasonable with this issue.

I also said that I would first like to try to resolve this in a quiet manner myself before taking an aggresive stance or getting anyone else involved. I hope worse will not come to worse and that this can be solved in a week or so. ;-)
CMK

Poaching a photo or in some cases using those boring stock photos that show up over and over all over the web just doesn't seem professional to me. It reminds me of eBay auctions, many of which ARE bogus, and where I've heard numerous stories of people stealing pictures, selling fradulent material (including seeds and plants), and no doubt some of the items being sold on eBay are stolen!

I also think Terrene is right and a business should be responsible for their website and why wouldn't they have their own photographs?

Calliope- It doesn't surprise me, but it is sad that some people don't respect the fact that your business is closed for the season. Maybe you need a big dog that stays out of the plants but scares off the tresspassers :)

Probably the most satisfying (if not guaranteed effective) thing you can do is to notify the nursery in question that they are using your photo without permission and it needs to be taken down ASAP. Once you explain that you've identified them on GW and will be glad to update the matter once they've taken the necessary action, they may feel impelled to grant your request.

A disreputatble/crooked operation (and they exist, unfortunately) will not care.

Just because a restroom is 'public' doesn't mean you can steal rolls of toilet paper from it. Hope that analogy worked lol!

I have yet to hear from them. That certainly doesn't ease my mind any, but I hope there is some understandable reason for it. I am going to write again tonight or in the morning. I will keep sending a message until I get an answer.
CMK

Terry

Okay, I e-mailed them the day I first started the post. I was a little heated, but the strongest thing I said was put in bold 'Please take my picuture down immediatly'.

The person at the nursery responded and said that they were contacting the webmaster and would get back to me asap. They also asked me how I thought the picture was obtained.

I e-mailed back and told them the places this picture had been. I also said that I did not want to cause a major issue, I did not want to defame their buisness, I did not want compensation. I would just like my picture down. I even said "Thank you for being reasonable" since the message they sent me sounded polite. I also said "I am sure you can understand how upsetting it was to see a picture of mine up without permission" and that "I imagine you would feel just as upset to see one of your own picture used without permission". I have ended all my notes with "Thank You"

I had not gotten a reply to the message so, being up late last night, I sent another. Here is a copy:

I sent you an e-mail the other day. I would very much like a responce so we can get this resolved quickly. I am hoping you learned something from your webmaster about this situation and are working on taking the picture down. If you sell this plant at your nursery it should not be hard to obtain your own photograph of it. I am not looking for compensation, nor do I want to cause a major situation. All I want is for my picture to be removed from your website.

Please reply. Thank you

In their next e-mail they said "...I have to tell you that I do not appreciate your accusatory and threatening tone in your emails. I think it is unwarranted and offensive."

I can't see how I was being offensive in any of my e-mails. Sigh...I don't know if I am getting anywhere or not. They said they would get back to me by Wed.
CMK

Whenever I get anxious about not getting a reply (regarding whatever), I remind myself that multiple issues may be at hand on the other end that I am not aware of, and I try to sit on my hands for a few days and wait for a reply. Not always easy, of course, but usually the best thing to do. If five days to a week goes by with no response, then of course send another e-mail or call, but really I do think it is a bit unreasonable to assume things with be remedied in the span of one working day when you are not aware of what's going on behind the scenes.

Additionally, there's the whole 'written word' thing, where anything in email can be read with different tones depending on where our emotions are at the time or what we know or 'assume' about the other person if we don't know them personally.
It is easy to see how they may have been put on the defensive at merely seeing an additional email this close in time to the last one and, therefore, reading a 'demanding' tone into the second email because of that emotion.

At this point I am just going to wait and leave it up to them. If it is taken down it is taken down, if it isn't there doesn't seem to be anything else I can do about it. I will have to let the whole thing drop.

That's how the world turns I suppose. On with the pleasanter gardening talks ;-)
CMK

Trying to put you on the defensive is what this sounds like.

The image theft you describe is what's "unwarranted and offensive", not your communications.

If nothing further happens, you can take comfort in having alerted fellow GW members to the problem. You'd think a business like this would be alert to public relations and the potential for lost sales.

Yes, I am glad that this could be at least be considered a learning thread and that others can be aware.

Another good thing- if they did get into my pb account they did not find personal pictures! I would be mortified to see myself plastered on a website. I always look horrible in pictures...
Thanks again eric
CMK

I will say that you gave the name of the business in the first post through the picture link though, no? Not that I have an issue with that. If they've done that with one person's jpeg, they probably have with others as well. They look like a husband and wife operation, so they may have been trying to cut corners. If it was me, I'd give them a day or two and then drop the hammer and send a cease and desist letter, contact the BBB, and let GW members harass them via email.

the ironic part is the plant is out of stock anyway.

btw, i found out that w/ Picasa 3, it is at the point when you upload a photo album onto the web that you are given the option of encryption.

It might be interesting to check the site in a few months to see what (if any) image is up for that plant.

As a nursery owner, grower, and webmaster, I can tell you that it always isn't that easy to get pictures of absolutely every item that I grow. Just because I've grown a plant for 2 or 3 years doesn't mean I can get a good picture of it, so I ask around for help from friends and even customers to see if they wouldn't mind donating a picture for me to use. I also ask my suppliers if they have pictures and they usually give us permission or send us some. In the past I've had a couple pictures end up being donated by suppliers only to find out they didn't have permission to use them in the first place, so I found out that the pictures were lifted from somewhere else and then donated to me.

And here is the real kicker for me... I've been doing this for 15 years, been a webmaster for 10 years, and have taken many, many pictures of plants and gardens which I've used on my websites. I've had photographs used in national magazines such as Fine Gardening and Midwest Living, have had photographs used in newspaper columns, and even had pictures used on plant tags, so it pisses me off when people steal my photographs and use them on their own nursery websites. The BIGGEST pet peeve is when my pictures are used on Ebay auctions. On one auction I wrote anonymously and asked about one of my pictures, and they said that was taken at their nursery. Ebay was contacted on that one.

Now, if someone asks, I will actually take it as a compliment and usually give them permission to use the picture. High resolution pictures for publication I often sell.

So I have to say, I understand both sides of the story. I'm always in need of pictures, never have time to get that perfect shot it seems, and also hate it when people lift pictures and especially hate it when they claim them as their own. But at the same time, I chalk this up to the free flow of information, and how once we post things to the net it is tougher to control that information.

On a side note, while surfing the web the other day I stumbled upon a website with a picture of a tattoo that looked surprisingly familiar, and thought Wow, someone else has a tattoo exactly like mine, which shocked me. Then I realized, Hey, that IS mine. At first I was a bit mad, but then I felt extremely honored that they thought the tattoo was that nice. Now if I do a google image search for that type of tattoo mine shows up on the first page. Lots of my flower and garden pictures do too ;)

Anyway, glad that things worked out the way you liked :)

Chris

I responded to them and thanked them for taking down the picture and said that I honestly meant no offence, that none of my e-mails were meant as such.

They contacted me and said that they were contacted by somebody about this thread and (nicely) asked to take it down. I don't know anything about this. Anyhow, they took offence to this and told me I was dishonest. They ALSO ASKED FOR MY ADDRESS! Yep, the one where I live to 'keep it legal'?? Oh good grief! I do not want to give them my address! I kind of think I might not respond to it and hopefully the issue will drop...
CMK

No, I wouldn't give my address either, but neither would I contact them again regarding this issue (hoping, like you are hoping, that the issue will just die on its own).

They said they obtained the pic legally from some stock pic site. Sigh...I honestly don't think I could go through this again and try to get the stock site to take it down. More stress than it is worth.
CMK

We all know that they have made themselves look silly, first by using your picture (however they came upon it) and then being less than polite to you when you pointed out their mistake. Hopefully this has been a learning experience for the company.

Now, as CMK said earlier, back to gardening :)

If you post pictures that are smaller in size and lower in resolution, it probably makes them less attractive to Internet thieves.

The BIGGEST pet peeve is when my pictures are used on Ebay auctions.

I used to sell on eBay, and had a picture stolen by another seller - but it was a picture of a box of software and it didn't bother me at the time. If it happened now, I would register a complaint with eBay. At least eBay has a way to address the problem, when one seller steals pictures or content from another seller and I've heard they enforce those rules pretty strictly.

-Mindy, no appology. At this point I would rather not hear from them again. Maybe they wanted my address to send a dozen 'sorry' roses? Lol! More like skunk cabbage and poison ivy. :-] -quick side note-you mentioned above that you couldnt get Scrophularia auriculata to overwinter? That is interesting since mine seems super hardy. The basal foliage is even semi-evergreen.

Thanks one and all for the support in this. I am so glad it is over. Now we can get back to to pleasant garden/plant talks!
CMK

and this (scroll down to Hydrangea paniculata 'Kyushu')
http://www.estabrooksonline.com/catalog2/trees/nursery.asp?id=Hydrangea

Not for a single moment I had a bad feelings when I found a twin of my picture. I made it public via GW, so let it be even more public via their site. :-))

That brings up another thing I've often wondered about - as people often go everywhere with their cameras, do the owners of the plants/gardens have any rights to the pictures taken of them?

My understanding is that would be legal, if the pictures are taken from a publicly accessible space such as the sidewalk and there are no trespassing issues involved. In fact, as the attached article states, "if you're on public property you can photograph anything you like, including private property. There are some limits — using a zoom lens to shoot someone who has a reasonable expectation of privacy isn't covered — but no one can come charging out of a business and tell you not to take photos of the building, period."

Nancy

I have run across these open stock companies occasionally, and assumed they bought the rights to what they offered from professional photographers.

You can take that as a compliment to the quality of your photography, if you like. Which is one way of looking at it.