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FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Posted by horton 6 b Ontario. (My Page) on
Wed, Jan 11, 06 at 18:30

This is at the top of the page.
"Please be advised that the GardenWeb Privacy Policy and Terms of Service have recently been updated and will be effective on January 24, 2006. If you would like to review these new policies, please click on the following links: Privacy Policy and Terms Of Service. For answers to your important questions about these changes, please review our Frequently Asked Questions."


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Hellllllllloooooooooo Horton.

I actually read the stuff. Some is OK. Some policy not that great but one needs to play by the rules to play.

Let the games continue..........

C3D :-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Any chance of rebelling against some of this stuff? Nada.I guess Chickie's take says it all. :( Sandy


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

I just read it, sleep inducing stuff! I'm going to change my e-mail address to the yahoo one and change my preferences right now.

Funny, when I tried to get back in the other day, it only worked when I checked "yes" on the options...

:) Mary


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

My membership page is screwed. My little personal blurb is missing and now I was born Jan 1. I guess that's an ok birthday, but it's just not "MY BIRTHDAY". I tried on two separate occasions to "edit" this info to no avail and finally emailed the prob to them. Now as far as my little missing blurb goes, I realize that there's not too many people tearing up their keyboards to hastily click over to read someone's personal info by the name "Grandmapoo". So, for two yrs, I kept it short. For what exciting tidbits of my life, could I include on such a small blurb that would be of interest to the vast garden community anyway? Well now, it's just gone...long gone...and I can't do anything about it. It wasn't much, but it was mine!!!

To top off this bit of adversity in my day (side of my mouth twitching), I read Mr. Horton's thread. So, I friggin finally break down and read what I've already noticed, but refused to further reduce my day to GW anger management. So now I read and I notice under the "Updating personal membership info" section (or something close to that) it says if you need to change your profile info to email the changes and it will be updated in 10 days??? What tha ----???...then why does there remain a choice to "edit personal info" on the member's page? It appears to update, but it doesn't. Why, why why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lord help us.


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

OMG grandmapoo I just love your little graphic I need one!!!!!! I feel like that everyday!


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

There are a number of interesting things tucked away in the Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. The one that plucks my guitar string is section m. compliance. I've been ticked off by the suspension of a number of civil rights and this is another. Any and all info, including what hyper links we visit are free and open without warrant to just about any government agency.
As Jeff pointed out, section l. forums, claims copyright of anything, ANYTHING, posted in any of the forums. That includes photos.
We cannot use !@#$% in place of vulgar words or parts thereof. Can you say darn it?
Gotta read it again. It might claim rights to my unborn grandchildren. Sandy


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

LOL Sandy! Now I need to see if iVillage will claim rights to my caterpillar! I don't need to worry about giving up any unborn grandchildren for a while.

I have posted a lot of my garbage, uhhh, I meant to say... my interesting and valuable posts at another website first that gives me the copyrights to the junk I posted. Not that the stuff is worth copying but should my stuff show up as someone else's work, not only have copyrights already been established but I now have potentially hundreds or more pairs of eyes looking out for C3D stuff used by someone else.

Maybe we need to end all our posts with:

(Username here)?

C3D :-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it///!? [2]

Oh Poo.. I LOVE your graphic!

I ~~almost~~ did that the other day.

Dudette almost killed the 'puter.


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

(With my most assertive voice):

Poo3, put the hammer down and step away from the 'puter! :-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

I read it last night and the more I read, the more it started sounding like blah blah blah blah. I think it all adds up to, you're using our site, we now own you! Resistance is futile, you will be assimulated! I've never uploaded pictures to GW, I just use links to them. Legally, iVillage cannot copy right anything that isn't theirs.

G'day,
Scott


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Legally, iVillage cannot copy right anything that isn't theirs.

There's the RUB, Scott... as of Jan. 24, if you post it, you've AUTOMATICALLY ASSIGNED THEM COPYRIGHT simply by posting, as a part of your terms of service. Your sole remedy is to not post. Otherwise, by simply posting, you're doing so under a Terms of Service agreement to which you have agreed as a member in order to have the right to post in the first place.

And having your pictures or text copyrighted somewhere else prior to posting them here means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, as well. In truth, everything created by an individual is automatically copyrighted by them unless they have legally stated to the contrary from the moment they write, paint, draw, compose, record, photograph or otherwise create such material, as per the Copyright Act of 1972... HOWEVER, regardless of WHERE you might have "published" such material prior to posting it here, by posting it here after Jan. 24, you're AUTOMATICALLY agreeing to iVillage's Terms of Service and giving them ALL RIGHTS to use such material however they see fit, in perpetuity, with NO requirement that they give you credit for the writing or photography or pay you for it (although since it's a non-exclusive copyright, we all still retain copyright, as well -- but if you post something you had planned to later sell to a magazine or include in a book, it could very well cause problems down the road, as many publishers want to have "first publication rights," which we're signing away by posting here.

Trust me. I know a little bit about this stuff.

In fact, on Jan. 23 I just MIGHT delete all my photo links here... At least any I think are good enough to be published later... And those slugsex photos that were up for 14 months before the thread finally slipped off the end of the gallery... iVillage might get an email SPECIFICALLY about those, as I'm pretty sure I'll be seeking publication of them at some point.

Just err on the side of caution, folks,
Jeff


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Ok, before mass panic sets in (too late? :D), I Googled some key words in iV's terms of service, and about 539,000 sites came up. Don't get me wrong! I'm not too happy about the changes around here, mainly to the ease of use, advertising, that sort of thing, but iVillage isn't the only site with such wording in their TOS. In fact, to be honest, unless it's brought to my attention, such as here at GW, then I usually skim through the info before clicking "Yes, I agree to the terms of service."

Does anyone have the "old" terms of service from when Spike was in the house? I would be interested to see that as a comparison.

Brenda


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Ahhhhhhhhh yeah, the slug sex...don't let those "slip" thru your fingers, Jeff. That was some exceptionally interesting photos. I really wonder if such a thing has been captured before. If so, I've never seen it and I'm #1 fan of interesting and strange animal life.

The possible reason we can't use characters in the place of a curse word, is that some groupings of such characters is often used in the coding of computer virus's, which in turn may cause some undue stress for the GW administrators.
I didn't see that part, as I'm with Scott, in my less than pleasant mental status, it all began to sound like, blah, blah, blah, or in my case, like what the teacher sounds like on Charlie Brown...wha, wha, wha, wha


Semper, I've put my hammer outside in the tool shed, where I store all butcher knifes and sharp instruments. By the time I find the key, unlock the shed and find my weapon, usually I've had time to chill a bit! lol


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

I don't have a copy of the old TOS, Brenda, but I read them several times (were MUCH shorter), and NOWHERE did Spike's TOS make any claim to copyright ownership and rights to use what's posted in the forum, not even once, much less "in perpetuity."

He made a deal with the devil, and we get to pay, but frankly I don't blame him, if he got paid well.


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

For those of you who have their photographs in Photobucket... from their Terms:

"....... Copyright Infringement.

Photobucket.com respects the intellectual property rights of others. However, you agree that Photobucket.com is not responsible for any violations of any intellectual property rights in any images or content posted to Photobucket.com. You understand that by using these Services that your images will be publicly available to others and that Photobucket.com has no obligation to prevent the unauthorized copying, dissemination, alternation or other use of your images. If you believe that your intellectual property rights have been infringed by another party please contact Photobucket.com at P.O. Box 559, Broomfield, CO 80038. Please provide:

1. an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright or other intellectual property interest;

2. a description of the copyrighted work or other intellectual property that you claim has been infringed;

3. a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;

4. your address, telephone number, and email address;
5. a statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
6. a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information provided by you is accurate and that you are the copyright or intellectual property owner or authorized to act on the copyright or intellectual property owner's behalf.

Upon receiving your complaint, Photobucket.com may, in its sole discretion, remove content that you believe infringes your copyright. In addition, Photobucket.com may terminate the account of the user who appears to be infringing your intellectual property rights....."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! :-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

I use Photobucket, and I feel that's just a fair, cover-your-butt Terms of Service statement, since it IS a web-based photo hosting service, and since you ARE putting your photos on a website, that DOES make them somewhat publicly available -- especially if you make your page a "public" page (meaning anyone can view, and therefore download pictures from, the entire page).

But even if it's NOT a "public page," being on a website the pictures are still far more vulnerable to being accessed and downloaded than if stored on your own computer, obviously, so they put in a disclaimer to cover them from being sued... The remainder of that TOS (all the Nos. 1, 2 and so forth) related to people seeing images on Photobucket pages that don't belong to the person posting them... For instance, if I took images I downloaded from National Geographic and put them on my Photobucket page to post here, well that would be a violation of National Geographic and the photographer who took the pictures copyrights, and either or both could make a claim to Photobucket, get the images and removed, and likely get my Photobucket account revoked, if not more (like civil and possibly criminal penalties).

And by the way, as far as changing where you host your images after Jan. 24 (I believe you mentioned doing that, Mary_O), with rare exceptions, anywhere you post them they can be downloaded simply by right-clicking them (on Windoze -- there's a different method for Mac users), and scrolling down to "Save Picture As" and then just saving it to whatever folder you save pictures to on your computer, using either the name it already has, or any new name you choose to give it.

So every photo any of us has posted on here already could have been downloaded and saved by everyone who viewed it, but that didn't give any of them the right to use it commercially, which is what iVillage is now claiming for future postings after Jan. 24.

Just a few more thoughts,
Jeff


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Technically there are countless copyright infringements all over the internet. I'm quite sure that I have violated one or two on occasion, and I know for a fact that I have been violated. Any jpg picture, any animated gif, any graphic or video file or even any bit of text can be easily copied, possibly altered and reused on somebody else's web site or even in a book. The fact that it happens all the time there is no question, it's just you have to catch them first before you can do anything about it. That alone is not always easy, especially if they have altered it enough that you can't easily recognize it. That coupled with the vastness of the internet, makes it easy for anyone to take and use material, but never be noticed by the original person who has some bits and bites accessible through the internet.
But even if you do per chance catch someone, what would be your first recourse or action that you could (should) take?
The first course that you should take legally would be to make the offending party aware of their trespasses. Probably the best way to do it would be to get something in writing with plenty of extra copies and dated. At the same time you should outline what steps you feel they need to take to remedy the situation.
Lets say that some company has some easily recognizable picture of yours on the home page of their website. You would first, of course, want to check out the picture very carefully before you make a fool of yourself. It is very easy to find two very similar pictures taken by two completely different people, especially if we are talking pictures of famous places or scenic areas. But if there is no doubt and you felt it important enough to proceed you might start by asking for some sort of monetary compensation. Always shoot high first I always say. Then you would want a reply from them. Again, the best thing to do is get it dated and in writing. They might do a number of things at this point. They may pay you what you want (dream on), or they may make you a counter offer like "how about we pay you nothing, but give you full credit for the picture on the web site?", or they may tell you to go to %$#@ it's not your picture, or they may take the picture off their web site (this is what happens in most cases), or they may ignore you completely. Each possible answer (or non-answer) has some possible next steps that you'll need to take that make it progressively more complicated, which is why there is some much plagiarism on the internet and why most of the time it isn't worth doing to much about it.
If you are already a famous photographer or artist it is easy to put a dollar value on something of yours that may have been swiped off your website and use without your consent for a some sort of profit making venture. Even then you'll probably still have to hire a lawyer and take it to court to see any of those dollars.
But for the average Joe with a web blog or some online photo albums, if someone stoled and used your pictures, the best you could reasonably hope for would be to get credit for your photos on their web site, which I think would be preferable to them simply removing them. Of course you might want them simply removed if the picture happened to be something very personal an/or embarrassing, but then you are getting into a totally different possible legal angle.

Anyway in the strictest legal sense I-Village can not assume any ownership of linked photos on this forum. There are a couple ways you can share linked photos here. One is where you might have a hyperlink that opens the picture in a new page (possibly an Photo-Bucket servers), or you could put a tag that tells you browser to display the image to load and display on your screen as though it was part of the forum page, but with either of these methods the picture never actually resides on I-Village or Garden web's servers.
There are some GW forums that do allow you to upload images to their server. Whether or not those images you upload to their server become their absolute property? I would venture to guess that, yes, I think they do have some legal solid ground there because of what they have written in their Privacy Policy and Terms of Service.
I have never used GW picture upload option anyway, so I'm not too worried about it.


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Don't even THINK about copying MY picture PUNK!

Courtesy of Semper's Stalk Photography Collection
All Rights Reserved. 2006


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

The Coca Cola company, Pee Wee and I have started class actions proceedings against you and Photobucket.com on that one Semp. I advice you to contact your lawyer immediately.
You have been hereby notified!


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Haw! Have a Coke and a smile.

How do you make that little trademark symbol, Semper?


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

So thats how you're going to do it!! LOL. Force them to research that little trademark or copyright symbol enough times and they will be screaming "Enough!". Sandy


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

One example of where someone has used some of my online material without my
given consent is on this commercial web site http://www.acesim.com/rc/p2/videos.html. Although he hasn't actually copied the material and placed it on his own
server (like Semper did), he is using it, via a link, on his commercial web site. It could be argued that because he is making money with this web site and using my
material as part of the advertising, I should be entitled to some sort of monetary compensation.

To find the link I am talking about scroll down to almost the bottom of the page and you'll see a link that starts out
"NEW - 9/05 #9 - Hand Catches - Don't know how I
overlooked posting this cool link!"

Likely he noticed the link on a RC forum where I posted it a couple years
ago, and decided to use it on his web site. I first noticed his link by
reviewing my Web-Logs off my site. I noticed that there was a fair number of hits
to that page originating from acesim.com.

I wonder if he'd be willing to give me a deal on some of his RC stuff from
his online store for compensation for using my link, what do you think?????


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

To get or this or a bunch of other thingies:

~Click: START

~Click: PROGRAMS

~Click: ACCESSORIES

~Click: SYSTEM TOOLS

Click: CHARACTER MAP and there you are!

C with 3 Ds


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Z-Chick, what she said. Alternately, you can also highlight the symbol from here or any other webdsite and COPY/PASTE elsewhere.

Muckster, here's how I look at this. There's a commerical roofing company that uses EPDM liner for various applications. Whatever doesn't get used, occasionally some very nice large pieces, just gets thrown away. But before the otherwise useable liners get tossed, they are badly sliced so that nobody else can salvage them for their own use. I guess the company's "reasoning" is if they aren't going to profit from it, nobody else should either. So instead of the liner possibly becoming the foundation of someone's nice pond, it ends up as waste in our landfills. So on that same note, if one's intent is NOT to use or sell their photos/videos/etc., then I personally don't see why it's a big deal for someone else to benefit (either monetarily or otherwise) from that material AS LONG AS they have obtained proper permission from its rightful owner. In your particular case, it would have been common courtesy for the webmaster to ASK. He didn't. So in my eyes, you should be entitled to SOMETHING.... Either removal of the hyperlink or some other compromise that suits both parties.

Back to football...


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Only slightly off-topic but....hey, Mucky! I just showed that site (as well as your link) to my DH, who is an R/C fanatic! He's built some scale stuff (1/12 Warbirds-style stuff), and most recently, he's been into the micros.

DH says, "What size electric motor does the CF have? And are you using Li-Po batteries?"

Brenda


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

"The Coca Cola company, Pee Wee and I have started class actions proceedings against you and Photobucket.com on that one Semp. I advice you to contact your lawyer immediately. "

I ran this by my lawyer this morning and he had the following message for you, PeeWee, and the Coca-Cola Company: "OTAY! Bring it on."


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Awhile back, I started getting a TON more spams in my bulk mail. I'm wondering......do you think it's because of iVillage's new policy???


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

It could be. I don't get ANY spam or other trash through though. Everything that needs to be blocked gets blocked with my computer set-up. :-)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Pee Wee has started class actions proceedings! Did you see that Semper? Pee Wee thinks that photograph had class! :-)

C3D? All Rights Reserved and Preverved with 10% Formalin. 2006


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RE: FYI, for those who have missed it!? [2]

LOL!!!

**Should read: C3D ... All Rights Reserved and Preserved with 10% Formalin. 2006 **

been sniffin' too much preservative while typing :-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Does the new policy mean we will be needing to re-register?

In my real world, if I were being staulked by employees of a store I'd visited, as I went about my business shopping at other stores on the same street, I would call the police. And in my cyber world, I tend to avoid sites that staulk, just like I'd avoid stores that would send employees to follow me around.

So, I'll definately be reviewing whether or not I want to continue to visit here. As much as I enjoy all of you folks, and would miss you, the information itself can be garnered here, there and everywhere across the internet. That's the beauty of competition. Other forums can always rise, and do, as the main plant shriveles.

I will however be making sure I delete the cookie placed at this site with regularity so it can't find it's friends scattered over the net. I value MY privacy and resent those who think they have a right to take what isn't theirs. My business belongs to ME, not someone else.

Sigh.........this sux.

GA


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Thanks y'uns.
All Rights Reserved. 2006


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

GA, as others may have already suggested, I honestly believe that this whole thing is being blown wayyyyy out of proportion by a few that don't have enough know-how about 'puter security which unfortunately sets most folks into a panic mode.

Shortly after the Katrina disaster, rumors started that there were going to be a massive petrol shortages unlike anything we've seen before. People panicked and went into mass hysteria and not only ran out and filled up their tanks but I saw a number of people buying fuel in 55 gallon containers. What started as JUST a rumor actually became reality. Data later showed that if people had remained calmed, there would have been ample fuel to go around until supply lines were restored to full capacity again. Pretty sad. So I'm telling you all this to say: DON'T PANIC! These "new policies" aren't really new at all. If everyone just uses common sense and follows some very basic security protocols in 'puter privacy, then everything is going to be just fine.

-Sempe (you know you're going to hell when you COPY the copyright symbols. LOL!)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

  • Posted by horton 6 b Ontario. (My Page) on
    Mon, Jan 16, 06 at 8:28

Semper,


Thank you,
"Horton" TM

P.S, didn't type in the main message just in case someone copied it, but I'm sure you got the gist. No paranoia here! ;-)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

And another FYI...when the new changes came into effect here, iV attempted to throw some more cookies at me (and without milk, even!), but I had absolutely no problems when I blocked the cookies (with my newly acquired ka-ra-TAY skills, thanks to a certain convenience store clerk). I've been able to stay logged in, and editing my member page has gone smoothly.

It's all gonna be OTAY!

(And just make sure to block the cookies, not toss 'em.) All Rights Reversed. 2006

Brenda


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RE: FYI, for you all who may have missed it!? [2]

"....didn't type in the main message just in case someone copied it...."

Oh HRTN () I didn't detect any paranoia in your last post
at all!

--------------------------------------------------
"....... iV attempted to throw some more cookies at me (and without milk, even!)........"

LL!! Brenda!

All you folks are toooo funny. This is how I remember the forum was once upon a time. Nice to see we're back and insane as we normally are. :-)

3DChick (All Rights and Wrongs Reversed.) 2006


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Semper
against a lawyer like yours I haven't got a chance :(

"Only slightly off-topic"
Brenda
Sorry to take so long to answer your DH's question, I just got busy here for a couple days and haven't had time to look at the forum.
The motor I was using in that CF was called a M100. My old link to the site where I got it appears to be dead, so likely they don't make it any more. It was a fairly cheap geared bushed motor and not really anything I would recommend anyway. And yes I always use Li-Po batteries now. When it comes to micro RC stuff where weight to power ratio is important they are the only way to go.
I got into electric micros about 4 years ago and have had a blast with them. Because they are so small and quiet I no longer have to take my planes (or helicopter) anywhere to fly. I just fly in my yard or sometimes, in the case of my micro helicopter, in my living room.
The new compact, high amp Li-Po battery technology in combination with the new super efficient powerful brush-less motors makes the field of micros RCs and park flyers pretty exciting right now. I really like the fact that the electric Micros are so quick and hassle free to fly. I can grab my micro helicopter walk out the door and have it in the air flying literally in less than a minute, fly it for 20 minutes on one charge of my Li-Po battery pack. After the flight I just throw that battery pack on the charger and grab another full battery pack and I'm ready to go for another 20 minutes. Usually after 40 minutes of flying I've got my fix of flying for the day and I haven't had to waste a lot of time driving anywhere or fiddling with nitro and fuel pumps. I wish all my hobbies were so satisfying and easy to accomplish.
The other thing I like about the micro RC planes is their ruggedness. The little CF you saw in the video has taken a literal power dive from 25 feet in to a concrete wall and only required a little re-assembly to get it flying again in 5 minutes. I have seen grown men cry when they have destroyed their large scale planes on a bad landing. I respect the amount of skill and time that goes into building those beautiful scale ships, but I would have a hard time risking something that I put so much time and effort into building to my flying skills. Not too mention that I have had an average of about two servos a year go bad on me, always seems to happen at the least expected time and always while I'm in the air.
What sort of micro is your DH flying?

All rights reserved


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

I got an email ad for an RC helicopter last fall that uses double-propellers, supposedly making it easy and safe to fly even indoors... was tempting, but too tempting and I'd never heard of the company that sent me the email Ad, so I considered it might be fraud and never responded.

That IS something I've thought about, though, Mucky... Your little video SURE looked like fun.

At least now I know who to ask if I decide to delve into this sort of hobby! :)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

3-D Shock flyers, Furious Bi-pland, EPP Foam, Hobby Lobby Hot Rods.


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Jeanner it sounds like quilting isn't your only pastime ;)


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Sorry here, too, about the delay, Mucky! Here's a link DH says to pass along - Micro Warbirds. Loads of info in that group!

Some of the planes pictured there are similar to what he's currently working on. It involves a new technique using Depron foam and molding it over a plastic warbird scale model.

He currently has a few micros flying with the tiny JMP receiver, and he just ordered the Plantraco receiver and radio system. Another one he built a while back is the micro Pitts. He used the recommended KP00-geared motor, but it was a bit underpowered for the weight of the balsa. One of these days, he'd like to get one of the new micro brushless motors (that Dynamics Unlimited just came out with) to slap into the little bipe. :)

It's amazing what they have out right now.

Brenda


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RE: FYI, for those who may have missed it!? [2]

Sorry Mucky, should have clarified that short statement, that is what my HUSBAND is currently flying. I tried it a few times but decided I was a much better spectator than participant! My husband has been flying for over 25 years, and has flown everything from 1/2A, u-control, big bird and helicopters. He mostly flew sport airplanes, he enjoys the aerobatics the most. He was in the biz for awhile, he started a business called AirFlair but sold it many years ago. The AMA used a picture of him and my son flying for several years in their ads - and that is our 15 minute claim to fame! He likes the park flyers now for the same reason you do - mostly cause he can fly them in the front yard, only landed in the trees a few times. Doesn't do much for my bird watching though :^)


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