She should have a tablespoon of salt per gallon. This could be a swim bladder problem but I am not an expert. When this happened to my pearlscale that supposedly had dropsy it died soon after. What kind of goldfish is this, if you aren't sure you can go here: http://www.desktopgoldfish.com/goldfish-types.php to figure it out. Make sure he has a filter on the quarantine tank with media from the pond filter, and an air bubbler. This should be done ASAP, next test your water parameters. After this go to koko's goldfish forum 911 emergency page and state your problem. You will get immediate expert attention. If this fish dies it is important to still follow up on this as the other goldie might be soon to suffer the same fate which could be preventable. Also, is the fish in the house? If so he needs to make sure its not going through too fast a temp change, he can remedy this by checking often and adding cool water as needed. 3 degrees change per hour is the limit. Wishing you the best!

Here is a link that might be useful: goldfish 911

Oh, and the salting should be gradual over the course of a day or so, not all at once, although he can do a salt dip which is full concentration in a bowl for 10 minutes then back to the tank

Thank you for you reply Smurfishy.
I had my friend bring in lolla and place her in the basement, since it was in the 50's yesterday the water perimeters should be ok. I just called him and gave him your recommendations, so he will be slowly adding more salt. He also mentioned to me that her fins were deteriorating some, so I told him that the pond need cleaning and a water change off the bottom of the pond of about 10% should be done when possible. I was thinking the same thing about bladder disease so I recommended that he feed her some squashed peas no skin. This has helped before with this fish. We may also try the Epsom salt treatment. He said she was more upright today but not completely, so some progress has been made. He is going to get a bubbler tomorrow and along with some water changes we should manage. I think we will go day by day. I will call him tomorrow and check to see how things are going.
The other fish is call Giggles. I first put in lolla and then the next week I put in Mr. Giggles it was love at first sight, we watched the kiss each other and then they swam around together like lovers ever since, it was cute. My friend is quite attached to them.

Goldfish can withstand LARGE water changes. I typically do 90% once a week. If the fins are rotting that is an indication of terrible water quality or fin rot in my experience. Maybe something happened to your beneficial bacteria. The pond and holding tank should be checked ASAP for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Does he have his own kit? Pet stores offer testing but its highly unreliable, I have tested this by bringing in various water that I previously tested and their results were way off. I think they do this to convince you to get fish you shouldn't get. Also test strips don't work, that is what pet shops most often use. You need an API freshwater master kit, the only trusted brand I know of. The testers should not read more then 0 for ammonia, 0 for nitrites, and 10 for nitrates. Ponds most often have high nitrates because its not changed often enough. The fin damage is likely due to high ammonia if any of those, and if it is the case he needs to do enough water changes to get that ammonia to 0 even if it means he has to do 2 100% back to back water changes. High ammonia can kill in hours to days. I have had to do this a few times, never killed a goldie, never stressed them, the bad water stresses them more. Although my bet is on fin rot, it is unlikely that his beneficial bacteria collapsed in an established pond. The salt will help for both situations and the near draining of the pond is needed to get rid of nasty bacteria that caused the fin rot. He needs to especially make sure to get anything dead out and to refill the pond with temperature matched water with appropriate water conditioners. Whatever you do, do not use medications before contacting that site I gave you. Some highly sought after meds do more harm than good. A three day fast followed by squashed peas is the recommended treatment for swim bladder problems. He would have to hand feed it if she is floating. Pictures would be great. Please post on that site, they are lifesavers, believe me! Below I am posting a link about salting your tank. The fin rot and possible swim bladder issues might only be surface problems, such as a whine in a car might be annoying but that's superficial it means something bad is going on inside, it needs more diagnosis.

The other goldie could get depressed some without its buddy but it should pull through with time. If the other fish passes it is best to clear the pond of infection before putting in another fish and quarantine the new fish for a month to insure no new diseases get in the pond. I am thinking your friend needs to take the other fish out of the pond and put it in a tank and inspect it for 10 mins or so from end to end, he needs to especially take note of red streaks in its fins, this is a bacterial infection, possibly septicemia. I am thinking both fish need to be treated. Although Lola might benefit from a temperature raise, but you need to talk to kokos first, because I am lets say, an intermediate to near expert on this stuff. They are the true experts and we all care about goldies so much so you would get the best of care. Best of luck to ya!!

Here is a link that might be useful: salting your tank

Thank you again, Smurfishy
Definitely my friend must do more maintenance on his pond. Part of the problem is, another friend of his bought him some of his comets this past summer, when I heard of it, I told him that his pond is not big enough. They breed, so I am not sure just how many fish he has in there. His pond is a raised pond, made out of pressure treated 6x6's, formed into a square. It sits over a hole that was dug down about 2ft, then lined with edpm rubber, the rubber liner lines the box and is nailed onto the top of the 6x6, there is a board that caps this so you don't see were the rubber has been attached. Pond size is about 5x7x4ft. deep. Very simple pond. I told him that it could hold a couple of small fish and that he would have to do water changes, cleanings and add some baking soda when needed, in order to maintain this type of pond. I need to stress this to him again and see if he will get rid of the other fish in there, since it can not maintain that fish load. Ponds are meant to be pleasurable, not stressful, but by adding to the fish load, it has put his pond out of balance. Now he is stressing because his fish is sick, of course.
I will ask him if he sees red streaks on the fins of his fish. I also think it is probably a bacterial problem. It is winter and the fish are not eating food because of the temperature so the ammonia level should not be too extreme or the would have all died by now. I will tell him to do some water changes so Lolla has the least stress possible, while she hopefully recovers. I would direct my friend to the goldfish 911 site but he does not believe in computers, what ever that means. I already gave him my file on salt,so he has plenty of info on that. I will let you know how things go.

Hi,
Good news.
Just talked to my friend and he said Lolla is upright and looking, he says with caution, normal. He told me he gave her some food, which she ate with vigor, because she was mouthing the bottom of the tank. Should I have told him not to feed her yet? He is now getting an air pump and stone at the pet store.

As I read this I was wondering if the problem started by feeding the fish too early. Until the water gets warm enough goldfish may eat food, but they cannot digest it. The food gets stuck in their guts and causes swim problems as it first gets uncomfortable, then as it rots and gas is produced their buoyancy goes off.

The cute is to being the fish inside so they begin to actually consume food. Don't be in any hurry to feed them and the problem will resolve itself.

I had this with my fish last spring, everyone got sick and eventually everyone recovered.

The problem with water quality isn't just the food but also everything that falls into the pond, any dead plants, if he has gravel at the bottom at all then any waste is just fermenting and decaying and giving off harmful gases, fish themselves naturally secrete ammonia to give off waste. This all can lead to bad water params especially in an overstocked tank/pond. If he got a testing kit he could see just how bad it is because at the very least I bet the nitrates are off the charts which can also cause bacterial problems in goldies.

That is excellent the fish is now upright, I was so afraid it was on its way out. I know nothing about the whole not feeding fish during winter ordeal, I have only raised indoor goldies This will be my first pond experience this year. I would suggest if the fish hasn't eaten anything since fall then only feed peas for a day or two then go back to not feeding? Maybe it is eating stuff on the bottom of the pond? Maybe the persons advice above is best in that regard. If you want you could post your friends issues on the site, maybe you would get hooked to it yourself, lol.

Hi,
There is a misunderstanding about the feeding.
Lola had been brought inside the house and is residing in an aquarium in the basement, the water temperature is well above 55 degrees so the bacteria in her stomach should be working. She had been in the aquarium for a couple of days before he feed her. She was acting like she was searching for food to eat so he gave her some. Sorry if I was not clear.
He is planning to keep Lolla in the aquarium until summer. I am going to advise him not to leave her or Mr. Giggles out in the winter.

I would not necessarily advise that. I'm again not very familiar with the pond scene but depending how cold it is and where your at in the world, 2 or 3 feet deep in the ground should whether the winter, he would just have to make sure that there is always air that can get to the water, so if it ices over just make a small break in the ice and that should suffice. I have also never read up on the hardiness of fancy goldfish in overwintering ponds. Although I hear a lot of ponders like to keep their fish inside for the winter so they don't have to miss out on them all those months.

If he is keeping the fish indoors during the winter perhaps he wants to bring it up stairs. Goldfish prefer 65 degrees even though they can tolerate 55. Although my tanks are at room temp at 68-70, in the summer the tanks can get in the 80s! Not ideal for the fishys but I'm not about to put air conditioners in every room. According to my readings they can actually tolerate temps all the way to the upper 90s. But now I'm rambling, lol.

I would again stress to test all the water params, ph, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. I would do this for the tank, for the pond, and for the tap. Take notes and figure out why there is a difference from each. Then I would do near 100% water change asap in the pond, as soon as it is safe to do so. For Lolla she needs clean water asap. Until her fin damage is gone I would do a 50% change 2x a week. Then atleast 50-90% once a week minimum once she is healed. Serious goldfish keepers do this religiously. Goldfish aren't called "dirty fish" for nothing. Another common practice is fasting one day a week and the next day feeding only peas, then feed as normal.

Just curious about the number of fish in the pond. A 1000 gallon pond can hold a lot of goldfish. What kind of filtration does he have? If it's unfiltered, it could easily be overstocked.

I wouldn't do any large water changes at this time of year. A good spring cleaning in a month or so should be fine. But taking a net and scooping out debris from the bottom is productive, as is a series of small changes, using the pond pump to draw water from the bottom of the pond.

I think Lolla might have been stressed by the cold, and ragged fins are not unusual in fish taken from a winter pond. I don't know how many winters she has been in the pond, but she may be losing her cold tolerance with age. I think it's a good idea to make her an indoor fish in the winter.

The pond is a pool of water, it has no filtration. He is supposed to do water changes. But, if you think about it, the 2 very small fancy goldfish should not make that much ammonia in that amount of water. There is water Hyacinth put in the pond to help take out ammonia in the warm months. The added fish is a game changer though. I do not know how many fish he has in there now, I don't think he knows either.

I can not recall how long it has been since I gave him these goldfish, 4, 5, or 6, years ago, but I had read that the fancy type goldfish are not that hearty and may not survive the winters, I think we may have reached the limit for these 2, so I think it is best to winter them indoors for now on.

Just talked to my friend and gave him the forums advice. Lolla is doing great. He thinks that along with Mr. Giggles and Lolla, who are only about 3 inches long, there are also 3 comets, about 4 inches long and 2 really small fish that look like Lolla, so it is not as bad as I thought.

He thinks that Lolla and Mr Giggles have been in the pond for what will be 6 years this coming summer.

A pond needs filtration for aeration, water quality and prob other stuff I have no idea about. Otherwise the water is stale and the fish aren't getting enough oxygen. The pond sounds like it is a decent enough size, one person mentions 1000 gallons which can accomadate a good number of fancys or commons/comets. The going amount is 10g per fancy and 20g per comet/common. The water quality may have stunted its growth as a 6 year old fancy in a pond seems to me should be much bigger. They grow to be 6-10" in the right environment.

One thing that alarms me is if you have no pond filter to seed your tank then you are starting off with a completely new tank cycle which means the tank could be at dangerous ammonia levels. Due to goldfish bioload the tank will likely need near 100% water change every two days or 50% everyday until there are no ammonia or nitrites in the tank and there is a nitrate reading. This can take as few as 3 weeks to as long as 3 months. If there is more than a .25 reading for nitrites or ammonia then it is toxic to fish. After the water change he should test again to make sure there are as close to 0 readings for those two. If you or someone else he knows has an established aquarium with no fish deaths for at least 6 months he could ask to use some of their filter media, provided they use media other than the traditional carbon filter. He would have to put it in tank water and transport it immediately to his tank because it can die off. Established gravel might help some but not nearly enough. He could try putting that in his filter. How big is the tank? The bigger it is the less water change he would have to make. Here are some links to some rather simple and cheap filtration systems for ponds. A pump and a prefilter box (mechanical filtration) would not be enough, he needs biological filtration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXF4orXAvmo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdaXPTJQumo&feature=player_embedded#!

Even unfiltered, a pond of this size can support at least ten grown goldfish, so he's not in danger yet. However, it still needs some maintenance.

I strongly suggest that as soon as it it warm enough to do wet work, he take a long-handled, fine-meshed fish net and use it to muck out the bottom of the pond. He will get lots of crud, but don't throw it away. Garden plants will appreciate this directly, or it is fantastic in a compost pile.

This will kick up a lot of fine debris, which makes the water look awful, but is probably OK for the fish. The fish will love this process, because it uncovers a lot of worms and other tasty tidbits. Let it settle, then take a wet/dry shop vac and vacuum the remaining muck from the bottom. It's a good idea to cover the vacuum end with some kind of mesh (like an onion bag) to keep fish from getting sucked in. This vacuuming is a real PITA, since the vacuum tank fills and has to be emptied very quickly. It's not too bad with two people (one to vacuum and one to dump the dirty water). This stuff can even be dumped on the lawn since the leaves and other larger debris were netted out. The lawn will love it. He will lower the water level a lot before the bottom is clean, so refilling the pond will give a nice water change.

The only good thing about pond vacuuming is it's only a once or twice a year job.

There are so many easy DIY filters that will make the pond easier to maintain. I love this one, that can sit on the corner of a pond.

Here is a link that might be useful: window box trickle filter

The pond will be cleaned up this spring, he knows he has neglected it and he is going to start to take care of it, from now on. The last 6 years he has done next to nil. He will not be adding a filter, but he will be doing water changes, he is going to add an air bubbler to the pond.

The aquarium he has does not have the hole set up. I bought it at a yard sale for a buck and gave it to him, just in case he needed it, it has come in handy so far. He is doing water changes and has an air bubbler in there for now. I do not know anything about aquariums, I will have to do some research on that. I have not been able to get over to his house (about 20 miles away) to see Lolla and I can not remember exactly what she looks like in order to tell you what type of goldfish she is, but when I do I will let you know. They used to keep goldfish in a goldfish bowl, wasn't that done by doing water changes?

Yeah. 100% change every day with very light feeding and the fish can live long in a bowl. Goldfish do fine in a pond without a filter, it just severely limits the population that will be healthy. 100 gallons per fish is about right.

Putting goldfish in a bowl started out in asia where goldfish keeping first started. When company was expected they took their fish out of ponds and put them in bowls for the day so visitors can admire their prized fish, then returned them at night. Europeans who were knew to goldfish but interested in keeping them saw this and thought it was the norm. With the language barrier they didn't bother to get thorough directions on their care. This started the bad practice of keeping them in bowls. If kept in bowls or anything less than 15-30 gallons per fish depending on size stunts their growth. This doesn't mean a small fish, this means their organs are crammed into a body too small for them as the organs keep growing. It causes them to be sickly the rest of their lives as their immune system was compromised for too long a time. I have one goldfish the one that actually lived through my bad fish keeping days, due to my naivety of small tanks too little filtration, not enough water changes, once I started taking care of it right, always seemmed to have ich, turns out they were sores. Its body could not handle bacteria in the gravel as my other goldies kept in the right condition from day one, and if I do any less than near 100% water change every week the same thing.

A 15 gallon tank couldn't cost more than $20 @ petco, you could prob find one for free if he were to use craigslist free section or join freecycle, which he won't do, maybe you can help him with this? Filtration needs to be 10x the amount of gallons, so if he gets a 10g, which is the bare minimum for 1 goldie, he needs a 100gph filter which costs about $15 at petco.

Without a cycled filter he needs to do large, atleast 50% daily water changes or the fish WILL die. Fancy goldfish can't take as much of a beating as commons or comets. Salt will help with its fins and over all health but if there is an ammonia level in the tank it could be deadly.

Here is a link about filtration: http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=aquariumfilter

Here is a link about cycling your tank: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3-cycling-of-the-tank/

Here is a good link for over all golfish care: http://www.flippersandfins.net/goldfishfaq.htm
The only thing I would change about it is that goldies should eat 3 very small meals a day and that they can be petted just very lightly, for a short period, and not very often.

Can you come up with a scientific reference for the internet legend that internal organs keep growing in a stunted fish? I can't.

Do you seriously believe that someone can do a 50% daily water change in a 1000 gallon pond?

haha, no Sharon, sorry to confuse. I meant that if it is in a small aquarium with no cycled filter that with the high ammonia output and no beneficial bacteria to consume it he would need at the bare minimum to do 50% daily water changes.

His pond, even without having a filter after all this time has plenty of BB connected to the sides of the pond, albeit not that it is adequate. Although I think its a good idea to do a 50% change once a month. A new uncycled pond with fish... that's a scary thought. I would hope people would allow their pond to mature before introducing fish.

Regarding the stunting issue, I'll go ask my source and come back.

But Smurfishy, a pond is a very different ecosystem from an aquarium, and the bigger the pond, the more different it is. In a healthy pond, you have a diverse ecosystem in which there are organisms that consume just about any waste product produced by any other organism in the pond, and also organisms that consume any organism small enough for them to eat.

There are still imbalances that can occur with accumulation of minerals and man-made pollutants, so it is a good idea to change a little water on a regular basis. Most recommend 10-20% a week, with the larger percentage for smaller ponds. Few argue with the idea that the best method of water change is a continuous trickle of new water with an overflow in the system somewhere. This approximates water exchange in a natural pond, and, more importantly, maintains the ecosystem in a steady state.

You can't do a 50% water change once a month without disturbing the ecosystem and the fish. It's a bad idea, but not as bad as what some newbies do -- a spring cleaning of taking everything apart, scrubbing it and replacing all the water. Almost back to a new pond. And there's nothing scary about putting fish in a new, uncycled pond. If you put in as many (or fewer) baby fish as the adults your pond should hold, feed them lightly every other day, Your pond will likely cycle without showing any detectable level of ammonia or nitrite.

What is scary is the thought of 100 fancy goldfish in a 1000 gallon pond, as per your stocking recommendations. Now 50 pond-type goldfish in a 1000 gallon pond would be workable, if one has excellent filtration and a good water change and cleaning schedule, but I wouldn't put more than one fancy per 40-50 gallons unless you have a very small pond that you are treating like an outdoor aquarium. Without filtration, at least 100 gallons per goldfish.

From what I have researched it has not been scientifically proven likely because there is no money in aquarium research. Most all fish research is done in ponds, oceans, etc. However, private owners have conducted autopsies of stunted fish showing this to be the case. The website below explains some scientifics of stunting.

http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/goldfish1.htm

To my knowledge bacteria needed to break down toxins are aerobic, meaning needing oxygen, in an unfiltered pond with no mechanical aeration I don't see enough bacteria thriving to take care of waste. It has also been explained to me that the beneficial bacteria is usually almost all caught up in the filter system, then some might be found on the sides and substrate, the water has very little of the BB. Even with a 100% water change the system should bounce back within a day due to the BB already in place.

Besides the toxins issue, especially without a filter you are working with very stale poor water quality. The nitrates from the break down of fish waste and ammonia, uneaten food, any thing that dropped in the pond should have the nitrates through the roof as well. This can be very stressful, meaning it can lead to disease, and the only way to alleviate this is through water changes. Of course my claims of high nitrates are only speculative until you actually test it. Goldies best tolerate no more than 10 ppm nitrates. In one tank I tested, 5 yrs old, never had a water change, it was over 240ppm, I have seen this as well with a densely stocked tank with moderate water changes. Maybe if he had lots of plants it might help with the nitrates but then you have to worry about choking off the oxygen supply at night, and adding dead decaying plants to the mix of toxins.

Regarding my recommendation of 50% WC every month this is what is recommended by ponders of another site who aim to take as meticulous care as their tanks.

Fancies bare minimum is 10g per with 15 to start, but this is with very good filtration and aeration. Once they start to become huge it is advised to give 20-30 per. Comets and commons should always get 20 per at the very least. Although the rules on this vary where ever you go. As long as you don't go by the petshops recommendations allowing for like 1" per gallon, lol.