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Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

Posted by green_go z5a (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 20, 12 at 23:13

Hi guys,
I read lots of topics in this forum in these past few days and it seems that all of you have artificial ponds with liners�. I am looking for some advice whether it is possible to build an artificial pond with no liners, just natural clay bottom/sides, which will serve as a reservoir for the excess water (spring water, rain water)�
I have an area in my backyard which is almost always wet (well, 10-11 months a year )�. It only dries out completely during the long hot spells in July� So, I was thinking � what if I can excavate this area and build a pond, thus killing 2 birds at once: to have a water collector for all this excess water and which will also look like a nice(?) pond with possibly a bog garden around it - no fish (or maybe just a couple for mosquito control). The soil in this area is dark clay (about a foot deep, it becomes very light grey clay)
If this is possible in theory, then of course, I will have tons of follow-up questions: how this will work during the dry weather? Should I replenish the pond with the water from the hose? etc. Can you direct me to the right websites/forums where I can get some info?
Below are the pictures of the portion of the yard where I think the pond could be build

Pic 1: the "green spot" is the area where I think the pond could be build: the water does not drain and stays on the surface and the grass remains green even in the winter:
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Pic 2: Close-up of the green wet spot:
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Pic 3: Marshy area in the woods behind the "green spot" where the excess water from the pond could be redirected:

Photobucket


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

My first pond was a clay bottom scraped out low spot. Dried up for a week or two in summer.

Check with local federal government, may Ag Dept. They may have some info for your area, may send someone for free to test soil conditions, maybe even kick in some grant money if you keep the pond as a benefit to everyone, like a wetland.

You couldn't really keep a clay pond filled from a hose. Unless you're talking 24/7 full on. If you had access to a large water supply and big pump than sure.

How deep you want to go really drives the design. If you scrap the topsoil off for a shallow deal it won't look good for at least a few years. Takes awhile for plants to grow in clay. I had a couple of other scraps and all acted differently even though they were just a couple hundred yards apart. One always had muddy, milky, water from the clay. One never did anything too interesting. The biggest was a real pond.

Since you don't want fish you can scrap off the topsoil, then scrap out some clay, maybe 12", so now you're down 18, 24 or whatever inches. Push the topsoil back over the entire deal. Then plant marginals around and inside. Search for "vernal pools" to see how these things work.

Many pond plants, called marginals, will say something like , depth 6". But generally this is the maximum depth. Almost all marginals do better above the water line but in wet soil.

Based on my experience I wouldn't go in between. I'd either go with a real year round pond or a vernal pool.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

I don't have personal experience with this like waterbug guy does, but wouldn't the source of the water be important in thinking about this? If the ground is always wet because the water table is high, when you dig out the area, the pond should fill up with ground water. The pond's water level would vary with the seasons but should stay pretty much at whatever level the ground water is.

If the source of the water is rainwater runoff, and it is being held by the clay layer, you would expect far more variation in water level. Also, if the layer below the good clay (the lighter colored clay) is more permeable, then digging through that top layer could reduce or eliminate the water holding capacity of the pond.

What if you started by just digging a fairly small hole out with a shovel, through the top layer of clay, and see if it fills with water? Better yet, two holes - one that stops short of going into the lower layer and one that goes through to it.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

You can search for more info, too. (Love the internet!!)

Search for Dewponds, Million ponds, Sodium Bentonite, puddling, clay lined ponds and clay lined canals as a start, Vernal ponds, too, of course(I forgot about that one). The clarity of the water will depend on how well the clay is compressed and the turbidity of the water. You might want to check out bog filtration, too since you want to utilize runoff.

You need to have a thick layer of clay that is free of intrusions such as roots, rocks and strata of other soil types. To retain water for a good length of time the clay needs to be compressed or puddled. The success of a clay lined pond depends on the proper material and puddling for the most part so you need to do a peculation or perc test to start so you know what is needed.

The DNR, in some areas may be able to give you some info. English Dewponds go back centuries and the British have been encouraging a resurgence for some time so their info is very good.

Sodium Bentonite is the clay commonly used to line most farm ponds and runoff retention ponds.

The success of a clay lined pond depends on the proper material and puddling for the most part.

To avoid mosquitoes you could check out solar fountains although they are not very efficient.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

My ponds did get water from the water table. In spring the water level was basically above the soil line. Meaning lower areas would have standing water. Our water table dropped during the summer, and going by the level in our wells, would be about 20 feet below the ground. But the water in the pond was slow to soak through the clay, plus we got some rain. So the drop in the pond lagged behind the water table drop.

I would guess it's pretty rare to have a better draining layer beneath a clay layer. Otherwise I'd assume the fine clay would have washed into the pores below. In my limited experience clay was just above bed rock but could be very deep.

This thread reminded me of my old ponds, 40 years ago. So I went onto Google Earth to see if they were still there and they are. But now with big trees around them. One of scraped pond was to keep a spot from flooding and nature took it back to the way it was originally. It would be cool to go back there someday.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

Thank you, guys, for your inputs! Lots of reading for me in the next few weeks. At least, now I know what to search for.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

No fish ='s skeeters


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

Clay can certainly wash down into pores in soil below the clay strata but that doesn't remove the original soil so you would wind up with a mixture that would not necessarily have good water retention. The top layer of clay would be reduced to a thinner layer.

Changes of the ground can take centuries to happen naturally or it can happen very quickly as in a flood. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all or takes a millennium. Some strata can be very thin or oddly shaped or very thick. The ground is a history of the land.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

Google "SRAC publication 105". It is a wealth of info on sealing leaky earthen ponds.
Several years ago I was raising fish in concrete raceways at a farm and decided to see if I could come up with a cheap way to seal an earthen pond. This was in AZ desert where material is mostly granular with very little clay. Having access to heavy equipment and manure I figured I would only lose my own time if it didn't work. I dug a 60' diameter pond 6' deep with sloped sides and filled it with water. At the end of 7 days the pond was dry. I dumped horse and cow manure (mostly horse) in dry pond and used an excavator with a sheep's foot roller to roll in manure. The roller did add some compaction to pond walls and bottom but the most important thing it did was it acted as a roto-tiller and mixed existing soil with manure to a depth of about 6". I filled pond with water and it held water as well as any plastic lined pond. It held water for the 6 years we used it and never required any maintenance during that time. Pond cleared within 2 months.
That method and more is in SRAC publication 105.


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

My son dug a pond last fall for me with a mini and shaped and compacted it really well. This is a pond that catches the rain run off. The the rain came and it worked and held water all winter. Now with spring the rain is here and it's still holding to the top. The run off goes into a dry creek that is a natural indention that we filled with beach stone. The pond is 20'x50' x 3.5 deep x 4.5 deep a peanut shape, on the deep in we are putting in a waterfall. We know it will hold the water and would like to use it as a swimming area or just float in it. The water is muddy looking and would like to know how we can help it look clearer. We do not have a liner and can't afford to put one in plus we would like to try to make it look as natural as possible. Please keep in mind that it does freeze in my area and we now know it freezes to the bottom of the pond. On the high sides of the pond how could we make sure that the clay won't keep clouding up the water as well as the bottom. I know this may seem like silly questions for some but we are learning and like any information that would be helpful. Thank you


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RE: Pond as a natural water collector with no liner� bad idea?

It depends on what you want to use your pond for. If you just want marginal plants (cattails, etc.), you can have a pond that disappears and reappears with the rains. If you want fish or water lilies, you're going to need a liner and a hose to re-fill it. For fish, you're also going to need a pump and a filter. But if you just want marginal plants, you don't even need to dig a pond - you could plant them in the wet soil - which is already technically a bog. You could also experiment with both - dig a pond in half of the area and leave the other half of the area as a bog. Plant marginal plants in both and see which one works better.

To 12amilou - to clear up muddy water, if you're not willing to line your pond to prevent mud from leaching into the water, you'd have to install some sort of circulating (pumping) and filtering system. If you're looking for a summer swimming hole with clear water, that may be your only hope. But once sunlight penetrates clear water in the warm spring months, algae will be able to grow, which is why swimming pools use chlorine. Also, if you have leaves falling into it, that's going to create gunk that will need to be removed somehow if you want nice clear water. Or just swim in muddy water. Lots of people do it.


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