Return to the Ponds & Aquatic Plants Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
See many dead koi under ice

Posted by carolegrove z6 NJ (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 2, 09 at 9:05

My husband and I are heartbroken. I don't know what went wrong but we bought a new Farm Innovators deicer for the pond when we went on vacation because the smaller thermal ones always need to have the ice popped from the opening daily otherwise they sink. At any rate I think the fish were attracted to the heat of that unit & I could see one dead under the ice when we returned. I turned the unit off & it subsequently got frozen in the ice and now doesn't start. I've continued to keep an opening but now I can see many images under the ice and can smell the water every morning when I push an opening in the thermal unit. The ice is much too thick to remove the dead fish but now I think the water quality must be so poor that more are dying. I don't know what to do. We loved our koi and I always worked so hard to keep them safe over the winter.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

If there is enough cold to keep ice on the water, it is unlikely that your dead fish are decaying at a rate fast enough to compromise the water quality.

I would be concerned that perhaps your de-icer has some sort of electrical short, and is leaking electricity into the water. That's a fish killer.

Do you have your unit on a GFI circuit? If not, I would be VERY careful working in/near the pond unless it is unplugged first.

Good Luck.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Carolegrove,
You may want to read an article that I wrote at the following url http://www.pondpulse.com/2009/01_09.pdf called "Koi and Winter Death". This may give you some answers.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Interesting article. So are your ruling out the possiblitiy that there may be an electrical issue?


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I'm not sure how to respond directly but to groundbeef1, the unit was on a GFI circuit and yes it is unplugged and we have most definately ruled out electrical as the problem. To Mike: Thank you so much for your answer which I'm printing at the moment. My pond is around 5 years old and I've never had fish come to the surface before so possibly something did fall in. I always make sure I give the pond the best possible cleaning before we turn the water off and I vacuum all the leaf debris that sneaks through my netting from the bottom of the pond. We are in the middle of a snow storm here but I'll see then if my husband can temporarily turn the water on so I can get some fresh water in there. Carole


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Groundbeef1,
Yes electrical can and does kill fish. But normally the fish has to get awful close to the source of the electrical short to kill them as the fish are not grounded.

Carolegrove, I hope that I am wrong but I am afraid that you are going to find that all the koi are dead. If there are any still alive than changing water will help them.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Good article, Mike, looking forward to the next one!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I really really really hope you are wrong. One of our Koi is around 7 years old and very large. He is so sweet and tame and eats out of my hand. You can't replace that. We also have golden orrfs that seem extremely hardy. They just keep growing too much and have never had a bad day. They function as a unit though without distinction or personality. We tried with the hose but they are so stiff and ice filled. My husband is buying a new one tomorrow and we'll run it. I just feel that the darn heater raised the water temp too much while we were on vacation and probably contributed to a poor water quality and oxygen level. Next year I'm going to use a combination of this and bubblers I was reading about on the forum. I almost don't want the pond to thaw because I don't know if I'll be able to see those beautiful koi. This way I can just keep thinking maybe they will come back to life. I've heard of that...


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

bbriggs,
The second article is also at www.pondpulse.com under 2009 February. Once you read the second article than you try your hand at answering the question that will be answered in the next article. That question is why did the koi die and the goldfish live. Nobody at the forum at the IPPCA have come up with the right answer yet so maybe someone here can.

Carolegrove, I hope I am wrong also. If you had goldfish in the pond they would be alive. Let me know if the golden orfes made it or not. I hope they did.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Really? goldfish will make them alive? I like to have a small pond in our garden and put some fish what are the kinds of fish that have a long life?

Here is a link that might be useful: landscapers utah


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Again I appreciate the article. The hose by the pond was too frozen to attempt to use it so we bought a new length and ran it from the house rather than by the pond & overflowed the pond for two half-hour segments today. The ice is still much to thick on the top to get the dead fish out. I can still see several in spite of the snow blanket and keep hoping the my special big-boy koi is somehow still alive or can even come back. We will again put the hose in the hole tomorrow or should I hold off a day?? I'm still afraid of adding too much tap water without being able to treat. I didn't have many goldfish - only 1 shebunkin & 2 sarasa and 3 comets. We did have 9 of the golden orfes - too many for a 6' by 9' pond but what do you do with them once you have them. I'll keep you posted as soon as we're able to melt that thick ice. How often should I flood the pond??


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Carolegrove,
I would wait 4 or 5 days before adding more water. You never said how many gallons this pond but I would guess if you ran the hose today for an hour at full force you put in about 400 gallons. Then I would plan on putting in about 10% of the volume once a week until the pond thaws out.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Too many fish for a small pond might have something to do with your fish loss. How deep is your pond?


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Mike,
Appreciate your pointing out the 2nd article. I don't know enough about goldfish vs koi beyond the generalization that goldfish tolerate considerably poorer water quality. However, the numbers are interesting - particularly the shockingly high apparent temperature of the pond floor. Relatively high alkalinity, extremely low pH, and the correspondingly unusually high carbon dioxide seem to go hand-in-hand with the very low dissolved oxygen and would lead to severe hypoxia (I would think) in most any fish. High CO2 would lower the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood, exacerbating hypoxia. It seems the only saving grace for this condition was the low temperature which might allow survival due to greatly reduced metabolism rates. Therefore it strikes me that the koi died of suffocation. The goldfish were either more tolerant of the poor oxygen/CO2 condition or they escaped to colder water where their requirements were lessened? The ammonia reading I would expect to be of little consequence at the low pH. Nitrite, OTOH, might be a contributing factor. In any case, I hope I remember to look up your take on this condition, because my guess seems too obvious and you might have a more interesting answer.

I can't help but think an opening to outgas the CO2 and pickup some fresh oxygen would have avoided the condition. In a larger pond, and modest stocking rate, the resident algae would have consumed CO2 and produced oxygen to avoid the brunt of the problem; was this pond relatively clear of algae?


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Bbriggs,
The high temperature at the bottom is easily explained. The layer of decaying matter on the bottom is generating heat during the decaying process. This decaying process is going to produce CO2 which in turn is going to form acid in water which is going to lower the pH. I agree I don't know any fish that can live at O2 level of 0.4 ppm. That is only a tenth the level that most fish die at. When you consider that we are only talking of 6 4" fish in 4500 gallon pond the fish load is not very large. But maybe a hole in the ice might have saved these koi but I have seen the same thing happen in 22 ponds to date except all these ponds did have a hole in the ice. In fact I have seen the same thing happen in two different ponds that were cold but had no ice cover. The koi did die and the goldfish lived. It is much likely in ponds that are covered in ice but same thing can happen in any cold pond that is not circulating.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

We estimate our pond to have around 650 gallons. It is 28" at the deepest point. I didn't run the hose at full force because I didn't want to disturb what fish might be left. I would say it was at about 50 percent so maybe I put in 250 gallons. Yes, too many large fish but we compensate for that with a good waterfall and filter, little fountain and very clear water with frequent water added during the summer. We didn't know it was a problem in the winter though as long as I kept an opening in the pond. This is our 7th winter and the most severe one with fish that have grown considerably. I read the second article too and will be sure to look for your conclusion. Maybe I'll have some small bit of good news to report then.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about your fish. I went thru that last winter, I lost all of them. I hope your big boy is okay.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Cherrycreek - I'm still going through the motions in this deep freeze we are in of going to the pond every morning and every night before retiring to pop the ice off my semi-working thermal heater. I can no longer see under the ice but we will be having a warmup Friday and the weekend. I'll again add some water at that time too as Mike's instructions. It's cathartic for me to write to this forum. I'm going to try to figure out how to attach photos but they are 4 years old and again points out to me how much my babies grew. I'll take photos after the thaw so all can see the crime of having koi that outgrow their pond!!! You get so attached to them...I'm still hoping the images I saw were of the orfes but I read those articles and understand.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I posted a few photos under the gardenweb photo gallery. I wasn't sure how to get them directly on this site.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Hi Carol,

I looked at your photo's......lovely pond and beautiful fish! I'm holding out hope that you have some survivors. I live in PA and we are having a really nice warm up so it should hopefully be coming your way.

Great articles Mike!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Thanks for your concern and I'm glad you enjoyed my photos of better days. We did and still are having a warmup but the pond is still frozen hard with water on top. I took a few sad pictures but don't want to post such ugliness on the gallery. If I figure out how to post here I will because if it can discourage anyone with an insufficiently large pond from buying baby koi it should be posted. They are small when you buy them and you take pride in seeing them thrive but I know now they were getting too large for the pond and keeping a hole in the ice just isn't enough to get through the winter.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Hi Carol:

I am sorry about your fish. The one thing about ponding is we all make mistakes. But the important thing is we learn from them. When I put my first pond in I bought the most beautiful shubunkins in the world. The clerk helped me pick out 4 of them. They had beautiful long flowing fins. I was a proud fish mommy. Unfortunately I didn't know that I should have had a pre-filter or a net around the pump. When my pump came to an abrupt halt and I pulled it out of the pond I found pieces/parts of my beautiful shubunkins. They had gotten pulled into the intake of the pump. I cried for days while kicking myself for being so stupid. You will always kick yourself for your mistakes, but don't beat yourself up. We ponders understand. We have all been there, done that. Sometimes our mistakes are costly, sometimes not.

I have a confession to make. I was kicking myself last weekend. I bring my pond plants into my basement over the winter and keep them under grow lights in wading pools. Apparently I brought in a dragonfly nymph in one of the plants. I almost stepped on a full grown dragonfly that had just hatched. It was in the process of drying its newly unfolded wings when I found it. It only lived a few days. I think it starved for lack of bugs. All ponders make mistakes but we learn from them.

May I make a suggestion? Delete your sad pictures or throw them out. You learned from your mistake. Don't keep looking at the pics. Move on. We know you are going to do better this year. That's what ponding is all about. Hang in there. Spring is right around the corner. Your pond is very beautiful, can't wait to see spring pics of your new and improved pond.

Jenny


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

  • Posted by horton 6 b Ontario. (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 10, 09 at 8:19

Jenny, wise words and great advice and lots of empathy.
Just what we all need when things take a wrong turn.

We all make mistakes and learning from them is part of life.
Owning and looking after a pond and it's inhabitants is a new venture for most of us and we all learn as we go along.
That is the great benefit of this and other pond forums, that we can all learn and share from each others experiences.
I'm sure Carol will take comfort from your kind and understanding post.
"Horton"


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Dear Jenny,
Thank you so much for your kind sympathetic words. I will throw out the pictures but for now every single day I have to look at my beautiful fish still frozen in their watery grave. The pond has melted water on top and unfortunately I can see my fish quite clear now but the ice is still too thick to get through & get them out. I know I have to stop with my mental would have, could have, should haves but it is very hard to move on while the constant reminder is still there. Thank you again Jenny and Horton. I will send happy pictures if we ever get there. Carole


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

  • Posted by horton 6 b Ontario. (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 10, 09 at 12:05

Carole, Some years ago I went through a similar situation as you. I found about six dead fish, totally encapsulated in the ice, in one of my ponds.
It happened because I did not install a hose clamp, to secure the hose connected to the pump that I used to bubble up the surface of water in the pond.
Because the hose had a really tight fit on the hose barb of the pump and had held fast the previous winter, without mishap,I had decided, that I did not need to put a clamp on it to hold it securely.
I was wrong, the hose connection pulled apart from the pump. The 18" pond froze almost completely and because of that lack of good judgment on my part, I lost the fish.

Unbelievably there was about four inches or so of water still free under the ice, right at the bottom and surviving in that small entombed space, were another four goldfish. After I managed to free them from their icy prison, they swam away to join the rest of the fish in another pond, with no apparent ill effect.
A few weeks later, a family of raccoons raided my ponds and ate all of my fish, including the survivors of that freeze-up.
I now have a low profile electric fence around my ponds to keep the raccoons out.

Yep, we all make mistakes and we can learn from from the things that go wrong. Whether they be our fault or not.
Take care,
"Horton"


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I'm sorry for your loss too. I'm sure being able to see the fish and not being able to remove them is hard. It is hard to let go when they are still out there:(

I've accidently killed my fair share of fish. One thing that comforts me is to think that they had someone who cared for them and gave them a good life, even if it was too short. Most fish that are bought by people in pet and garden stores don't usually even get that!

Sounds like you had your koi for several years. To keep koi that size healthy for so long, you were doing something right:) You will pass on that knowledge to some lucky new babies that will be looking for a good home!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I grew up in Jersey and left there just about 6 1/2 years ago. I remember growing up, my dad had a pond in the back yard. One year he had turtles in it but every other year he had fish. I couldn't tell you if the were Koi but they sure did look like it. They were huge goldfish looking fish. I seen some big Koi recently and they looked like dads fish. His pond was about 4' deep but every year his fish would freeze in the ice and then thaw and still be alive. Everyone dad ever told it to thought he was joking but I remember seeing the fish frozen solid in the ice and then when it got warmer I seen those same fish come back to life. I thought dad was playing a trick but the same fish with the same markings every year were the same fish.....I had a goldfish one time jump out of its tank and when I found him he was all dried out on the top side but the side laying on the carpet wasn't as dried. He looked dead to me but I just threw him back in the tank and a couple hours later he was swimming around. I was shocked. so I think some of these fish are very hardy. I hope all the rest of your fish make it. Good Luck.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Thank you for your kind words. It's unbelievable but my pond is still frozen so that every morning & night I still have to check & make sure I pop the top of the thermal unit to keep it open. Big boy was 6-1/2 years old and he was our first koi bought by accident from a company going out of business. He was mixed in with the goldfish since we never intended to buy koi. We realized it afterwards since he had those cute whiskers and we quickly fell in love with him. He was very small but grew hugh. We subsequently bought several other koi over the years - all gone I'm sure but I do see one of the goldfish swimming under the ice. I haven't seen the golden orfs yet but I'm sure they are down there. What a miracle it would be if all the koi frozen on top were all just sleeping. I'm hoping the ice will be gone by the end of the weekend so I can move past this.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Just to be clear.

Fish sometimes survive encased in ice. Their metabolism slows enough that they can survive on very little O2.

But, fish don't survive if they are actually frozen solid.

For your sake I hope they make it.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Hi Carol,

Any good news to report, I sure hope so.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Another thought-any chance you have some dead frogs decomposing in your pond? I had fished out 4 dead frogs in early Feb. I was lucky to have been able to clearly see them (when there wasn't a heavy ice cover) and got them out while they were still intact. Even in the cold water, I noticed how quickly a white film developed on the dead frogs. I only have a few goldfish-they didn't seem to be affected. But a more finicky fish might have been.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

The only news to report is that the pond finally thawed enough so that I could remove 4 dead koi(yes Big Boy was one of them)on Monday and bury them and got the other 4 out of a still frozen portion yesterday. Although I've been running the hose every several days to overflow the pond the water is still too murky to see to the bottom to know if my golden orfes are OK but 2 goldfish are OK. I don't want to start running the waterfalls & filter since it's still much too cold at night. My other hose with the vacuum is still frozen as well. I don't believe we had any frogs at all last year. We've never had ice so thick as this year and the fish had grown so large. Mike's article seemed to tell it all. I am very anxious to move on believe me and will report further as soon as I'm able to "open the pond." Thanks again everyone. Carole


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Carole,
I'm so sorry about Big Boy and the others. I hope your golden orfes are OK.
Sherry


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Mike,

Great article. I always wondered about temps during winter and ice thickness.

the answer is (I hope) - goldfish don't sit on the bottom of the pond, and therefore don't warm up as much and avoid the high CO2


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Madtripper you are getting close.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Ok, i now know the complete answer.

Goldfish know they are a dime a dozen and not worth dieing.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

You were getting warm but now you are colder than the pond the goldfish are in.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Mike.

Are the Koi's metabolism higher, there for requiring more oxygen then the goldfish?


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

I have no idea and I don't know that information is available but during the winter I would say that just the opposite is true.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

While the debate continues as to why the goldfish survived and the Koi died I still haven't been able to assess the full loss to my pond. The temperatures in NJ have still been very cold with nightime lows being in the 20's several times. I see absolutely no life whatsoever and can see to the bottom of the pond now. I have a "house" for the fish and an area of the pond where the rocks overlap the edge quite a bit to provide a hidding spot in case of a preditor. The golden orfes could be hidding there but I'm surprised not to see any sign of life. I fear they could all be dead & just stuck under there. I won't know until it finally warms up and I'm able to lower the pond water & get the waterfalls running. What a horrible winter!!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

For anyone who is interested the answer to why the goldfish is now in the March issue of Pond Pulse.
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

  • Posted by nancyd 5/Rochester, NY (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 28, 09 at 12:35

Carole, I'm certainly not a pond expert but I'll share what my husband and I have learned by trial and error. I am sorry for your fish loss. It's awful to lose a fish, esp. a favorite, no matter what the circumstances (ours were due to herons until we wised up). I didn't read every post word for word, but it sounds to me like it could be due to oxygen depravation. We've had our pond for a few winters now and our winter treatment is very simple and it's served us well. Once we do the fall cleanup and turn off the waterfall, we insert the bubbler until we do the spring cleaning and turn the waterfall back on again. The bubbler is on the bottom of the pond, but shoots water high enough to keep the surface water moving. Some folks have told us they don't use bubblers and their fish survive just fine - however, I think that's pretty risky up here and I won't try it. The moving water helps delay the freezing over. Usually late January is when I have to put in the de-icer and it's only in until early March. This year was pretty brutal coldwise for us in the northeast. We use the donut shaped Thermo Pond de-icer. Our pond is 2,500-3,000 gallons and it's been sufficient. Over the years, we've lost a goldfish and two black moors, but never a koi. Nothing died this year. The only problem with the de-icer was this year when we got an extremely heavy snow during a bad blizzard. I had to keep going out and pushing the drifts off the de-icer to allow the surface to be clear.

I hope you figure out your problem. I have noticed that sometimes we tend to overthink our ponds, when the solutions are usually pretty simple. People are very knowledgeable on these forums, but you're pulled in too many different directions when the answer isn't that complicated. Best of luck to you.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Dear Nancy,
I'm sure it was oxygen depravation as you say and as seen in Mike's article and I feel very negligent that this happened. I used the bubbler too in the early part of the winter and also the Thermo Pond de-icer. The fish appeared to be fine up until we went on vacation February 4th and it was the sixth winter. Because of the problem of the Thermo unit needing daily monitoring to make sure the hole didn't freeze up we bought a large Farm Innovators deicer so my daughter wouldn't have to run over there every day. I think that added to the problem by heating the water too much and at least 1 fish died while we were gone. By the time I learned about adding water, etc. it was too late. At this point I have also removed the Golden Orfes and believe I have only one fish left - and guess what Mike - it's the goldfish. At this point I've stopped grieving over the loss and know I have learned a hard lesson at the expense of my fish. I'm still not sure how I'll handle the pond when we go on vacation next winter but since I won't have large koi or golden orfes - just goldfish that I'll buy it should be a healthier pond (not an interesting one)but a safer one. I really loved those koi - especially Mr. Big.


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Check out shubunkin goldfish they are calicos(even with blue) with long fins and look a lot like butterfly koi. Wakin goldfish look sorta like red and white kohaku koi and have nice fantails. They have great personality! Sarassas are another red and white choice that have beautiful tails.

Goldfish can still get to be 12 inches long and don't have to be boring. Some of my favorite fish in my pond are my goldies:) Shubunkins and wakins are also very hardy and don't mind the cold at all. They stay fairly active all winter from what I've seen in my pond.

Good luck and have fun!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Thanks for your advice. Shubunkins are nice and we have had some over the years and the Sarassas are very attractive as well. I had only 1 left in the pond which also died this winter. I had heard about the for Wakin goldfish but would have had to mail order them and they were on backorder at the time I checked a few years ago. Maybe I'll check it out again when I hear they have a nice personality. I really enjoy the kind of fish that come when you call & beg around for food. That's why the koi grew too large!!!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Personality can happen with any fish, you just never know! I had a sick wakin I brought in a few weeks ago and I netted a common goldfish with her to keep her company. This is a fish that came in on a plant and is very "wild" looking. Nothing special at all, actually kind of homely. Since coming indoors he is Mr. Personality. He has a trick where he stands straight up and waits for food, then eats out of my hand. He is such a showman! LOL
Check out raingarden for wakin, I just ordered more:)


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

  • Posted by beth4 z5 - Utah (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 2, 09 at 16:18

Carole,

I'm sorry to read about your winter experiences. I've lost large koi during the winter, too, so I know how painful this can be. I hope it helps to know that your unfortunate experience has helped many of us forum members learn and, ultimately, be better ponders.

Mike, I read your Jan, Feb & Mar articles and found them very informative. Thank you for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience, and help us improve our ponding skills.

While I've not visited this forum over the winter months, I'm ready to get back in the groove, since spring is thinking about returning to Utah. I actually have Wedgewood Iris in bloom, along with the many crocus!

I look forward to reading posts and learning new things from the wonderful members of this special forum.

Cheers, everyone!


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Beth4,
In the March issue was another series of articles that I wrote about 8 years ago. The first in the series of eight articles is in March. I probably will write a couple of new additions to that series to bring it up to date at the end of that series. It is called "The ins and outs of koi ponds"
Mike


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Happy holidays everyone. Things are still progressing very slowly but Mike you were "dead" right when you said only the goldfish would survive. I actually had only one gold fish in my pond and he was the sole survivor. You can add to your research that the poor golden orfes never even tried to come up & seek better water & simply died right in their underwater house(crate). Once I lifted that from the pond I was able to remove them. So for all you new ponders please resist the temptation to buy the adorable little baby koi unless your pond is at least 1000 gallons of water. Mine is around 700 at best. Once they grow larger even if you are able to keep the water good during the summer with constant monitoring and cleaning of the filters and frequent water changes you can't adequately control what is happening under the snowy ice. Read Mike's articles and learn before you doom your koi to a horrible death. My water temperature is only at 42 degrees so it will be a while until I can buy fish - just gold fish. Good ponding to all and thank you for helping me through this. Carole


 o
RE: See many dead koi under ice

Same exact thing happened to me in my pond a few years ago. The outlet that the de-icer was plugged into died and the pond froze solid. Lost 13 orfe and about 7 big koi. All the goldfish were fine.

My father never got over the death of the Koi. He said it made him sad to even look at the pond that year. He took it harder then I did.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Ponds & Aquatic Plants Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here