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mgeca

Advice on Pond Life

mgeca
16 years ago

Hi, we agreed resolutely no fish, no plants in our landform water feature. Well, recently DW came home and mentioned all the fish for sale that she saw. And as the resident gardner has a stack of information on aquatic plants.

The pond is 14x10, couple of feet deep. No room to add any filtration. There is a skimmer, two pipes taking water near the bottom, and a filter pond. Can we get by with this if I am willing to clean bottom once in a while.

Those with fish talk about significant muck on the bottom--waste and food. I am thinking of no more than half-a-dozen fish. Is this a lot of waste?

Also-hah!-is there some way to keep the population in check? Do some species breed more than others? I remember reading about getting two fish of the same gender (why not 4?) but that seems pretty tough to do, isn't it? The idea is to see some color and motion, within limits.

What fish could I buy that don't interbreed? Could I get, say, four different types that hang out but don't fool around?

I have followed about water quality, water changes, overwintering, its the types and how they behave I don't know.

Lastly, it looks like some waterlilies will fit the situation except in the filter pond. There is a lot of flow and turbulence but a place to anchor plants. What might survive there?

All guidance, advice, thoughts welcome. If we are misguided in our intent, this would be a good time to know.

Thanks - Mike

Comments (22)

  • pikecoe
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fish don't fool around in the sense that you are referring. If you have males and females of any kind together they will multiply, unless maybe Koi-Goldie hybrids. When the females have eggs, the males chase them bumping and nudgeing them to make them release their eggs. The males then spray their milt (sperm) onto the eggs and the eggs are fertilized. So you could have 4 different varieties and it wouldn't make any difference. If you add a couple of bluegills (same sex) you would not have to worry about any babies surviving. But if you happen to get a male and female bluegill together you will have a hundred baby bluegills, in no time at all. Glenda

  • lsst
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you get a good vacuum and clean the bottom occasionally, you will be fine. I know based on your pond building experience, you have enough filtration for some fish.

  • txgdnr
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with the above posters. I have a small pond(250 gal)with about 15ish goldfish(its hard to count goldfish)most purchased from a local pet store as feeder goldfish, 2 or 3 donated from the elementary school aquarium. I have a combination of plants including Parrots Feather, a Water Lily, Corkscrew Rush, a Violet Stemmed Taro & some oxygenators. This balance seems to be just about right, my water stays clear, most of the time. My fish have not ever, that I know of, had babies. If they have, they must have been lunch! The only problem I have is with leaves from the surrounding trees getting in the pond & fouling the water. As long as I stay on top of scooping out the leaves all is well. That said, I would definitely put plants in the filter pond, they would help keep the waste filtered out from the fish. From the pictures I remember of your pond you might have to slow down the waterfall movement a bit, but maybe not. A little experimenting when the weather warms up a bit will be very helpful. You have a very beautiful pond, good luck with any improvements you make. Dianne

    Here is a link that might be useful:

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I do recall the birds and bees, no one said anything about fish. Lively little critters. I guess I will just have to take my chances.

    lsst, I expect you are right about enough filtration for a small fish load. I have a vacuum.

    My FIL is an avid fisherman and I have set him to find out how to determine gender of bluegills. I like yellow perch but someone said last year they are not a good pond addition.

    That leaves me with moving water tolerant plants for my filter pond to figure out.

    Mike

  • youreit
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some plants that don't mind water movement are Japanese sweet flag, Bacopa (or water hyssop), blue and palm sedges, water spinach, water willow, water mint, yellow monkey flower, parrot feather, and water parsley.

    Have fun with that! :)

    Brenda

  • always_outside
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike -
    My experience - Shubunkin are prolific! I started with 2 koi and 4 shubunkins. (The largest koi and largest shubunkin were stolen by a heron.) I now have 20 fish in less than a year. I had a lot more babies, but most became lunch. I have a lot of hiding nooks in my pond and it's impossible to catch the babies, so I have to wait until they grow a bit more. I really wanted to keep the fish population in check by keeping around 5 fish, but it's beyond my control. I had no idea goldfish were so prolific. They're like guppies in my opinion! So, be careful what you put in your pond if you don't want a bunch of babies.

    Loretta

  • sleeplessinftwayne
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, Mike. Those fishies do increase. I have been trying to hold the population down forever it seems but they just keep on following that urge. Not only do I have the fishies I bought, I also get the ones that survive the summer in the pond at the extension. I put some Gourami in the pond to eat up some of the progeny without adding more, but they let me down this year. It looks like I have a half dozen new ones of mixed parentage. I like most of the comet family, especially the shubunkins and long finned variety. I love watching the shubunkin raising it's top fin when it wants to show a little aggresion or interest and the long finned ones are almost as gorgeous as the butterfly Koi but won't get large. It grows on you. With all the cross breeding, many of the babies are interesting to look at. No two are the same.
    Waterlilies like still water. Iris doesn't seem to mind and taro does very well. There are a whole bunch that would do well in your pond. Spinich and watercress would do well on the sides of the waterfall. I'll look up some websites for you tonight when I have some time. Sandy

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks all for the kind comments and good info. The plants I can deal with, locate; the fish are something else. Thank you Brenda, your list is great.

    It sounds like no matter what I try to do we are going to have babies. Maybe if I don't feed them when I see the mating behavior there will be fewer left?

    My water is clear but I suppose now I will have to test it and be careful just tossing in the hose to top off. This is what I wanted to avoid but a good respite from moving rocks. Rubber smock, smoking chemicals in beakers, fish cowering on a lazy summer afternoon. Ponding.

    I'm interested in instant fish. A couple little feeder goldfish won't be much to see will they? Is it possible to buy bigger fish - 4-6" or whatever? Do any of you buy fish on-line (possible?) or do I just hunt around the local stores?

    No rush, it's snowing, but I do think it will be fun to experiment, add some life to the pond. Thank goodness I can't make the pond bigger-I'm hooked enough.

    Mike

  • lsst
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have Sarassa comets and Shubunkins. Like the other posters, they do breed like crazy!
    I started out with 11 a year and a half ago and I now have about 50!
    I had heard that Golden Orfe like to eat fish eggs but I have not been able to find them locally.

  • pikecoe
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have ordered fish on line from Springdalewatergardens. They have nice fish and they add fish to your order in case some don't make it. I ordered twice and never had any die. They have a good flat rate shipping charge. I've also ordered from Trickers and they charge more to ship but have nice fish. And those places have had the Orfe also. Glenda

  • lsst
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Glenda! It looks like I will new fish to add to the pond!

  • sleeplessinftwayne
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    oops. Sorry, Mike. I totally forgot. I'll get to it in the morning. Most of my fishies started out as feeder fish. I must have 30 or so now. They may be small but it won't be for long. Sandy

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been looking at some of the sites you all recommended. A great find for me. Many of the fish are really attractive, moreso than I realized from pond photos. It looks like one can get about anything by spending the money. I'll be looking locally first though, if the snow ever stops.

    I would like some opinions on a couple of questions.

    Are some types (are they species, varieties?) hardier than others? Given my set up I expect there will be, at least initially, some survival of the fittest going on.

    I'm thinking it would be wise to start with a couple of feeder goldfish to test the waters, so to speak. I guess they are sort of sacrificial? I can tune up the water based on how they do?

    I'm going to like this, depending on how messy it gets.

    Thanks - Mike

  • sleeplessinftwayne
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, Mike. I stock the pond at the Extension with feeders each year. It is a small pond and since it is pretty exposed and frequently out of human sight, by the end of the season there are usually 3 to 5 survivors no matter how many we started with. They get sent to my pond because the Ext. pond is shut down in the winter. They have a growth spurt in the spring that makes them too large for the Ext. pond so we buy feeders again.
    I try to get the most colorful of the feeders but it is the nature of comets to change color and pattern so it is dubious that they will survive the summer without reverting to the solid gold/orange colors. Another thing I look at is the tail. It is not always a clue as to the final shape of the fins but I have managed to pick several that developed into long finned comets. So far they have not proved to be less hardy but I have noticed they are more predator attractive. Right now I have four or five that have been in the pond for three years.
    I wind up with a large number of solid white fish and for the most part they are less hardy in the first winter than the rest of the comets but then it is equal. Sarasa comets seem to survive well but sometimes their markings shift. I had a couple I purchased because they had a solid red stripe from top of head to tail as well as the long fins. It was frustrating that one lost all but a spot on the head and one on the tail and the other had breaks in the stripe that made the red look muddy. The goldies have color changes too. I thought someone was playing a trick when I found a fish that was brown on top and gold on the bottom. But it wasn't a trick. The colors kept changing size and position all that summer but now I can't tell that one from the rest of the goldies.
    I have difficulties with shubunkins. I am not sure why but only one has managed to survive more than a month or so. I will keep trying because I really like the look.
    Koi are less hardy than the comets. White or platinum are less hardy although I did have a white long finned one that lasted for 5 years. It was very attractive to the herons and had several scars to prove it.
    Malaysian koi are less expensive than Japanese koi and domestic koi and butterfly koi are at the bottom of the price scale although the butterflys are creeping up since sellers have caught on that Americans like them. Small koi (4in.) can be found for under $10. 6in go for a minimum of $17 then up depending on a lot of factors. Unless you are going to be breeding koi or have a lot of money to spare or a bit of ego to feed you shouldn't even look at the more expensive Koi. They can range from $100 to $10,000. I think of them as the Mona Lisa. While I would love to have it, I couldn't afford the expense of maintaining it in my home let alone putting up the selling price.
    Koi coloration can be very changeable. I have one that started as mostly orange with a few black spots and now it is mostly black with only a bit of the orange showing.
    Lots of choices with fishies. Sandy

  • garyfla_gw
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi
    I handle the overpopulation problem by keeping tropical fish. Several petshops take them regularly.I can make a bit of money but mostly it pays for supplies. Danios several species of tetras ,barbs and live bearers.
    I added a heater last year so I'm going to try angelfish and softwater cichlids.
    I want to try discus in the large setup but gee it's tough to turn 25 dollar fish loose lol Especially the size of a quarter lol Iknow ,those are cheap for discus but I'm a cheapskatee just ask my wife lol gary

  • sheepco
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike, Get ONE nice 3-4-5" comet or what ever. Problem solved.

    Yeah right, LOL! Unless you bring in some fertilized eggs in on a plant or whatever:)
    I have found that the less underwater plants they have to hide in, the less fry survive the voracious appetites of the adults.

    If you only get 2 big fish you have a 50:50 chance they will be the same sex.

    Just my 2 cents. (I've got about 15 babies if you need any.) S

    Don't name them, then you can have FIL

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, what a great bunch of information. I am resigned to babies and will figure out what to do as I go along.

    Gary, I don't know about a market for goldies but I recall reading here that some people do sell them to pet stores. You have to catch them first, right?

    Sarah, a 50/50 chance is better than nothing lol. What are the odds that if I just buy one that it will be a hermaphrodite? All that is planned now are water lillies, I suppose in pots, but what do I know. One day I'll be offering babies, even paying postage!!

    There is plenty of time to sort through it all. I find the prices reasonable for maybe 3-4 inches, have no idea about shipping cost. To me, if I am going to do it I will balance wants with cost and make it work.

    Sandy, my ego's diet doesn't include koi/show koi. I've always liked and owned mutts.

    No predictions on naming the fish--to me they are non-fuzzy creatures of instinct. But who knows--I probably will and end up posting emergency messages about some malaise suffered by Pyrites.

    I have time, I enjoy fun and despite my somewhat cynical attitude do promise to be good to them. I have an on-site ombudsman to direct me.

    Mike

  • artsmall
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am re-doing my 2000 gal pond which has a skimmer,bottom drain and bio /water fall unit with one 1/4 hp pump .I will increase the pond to 5000 gal.For this redo,how would you compare a new ultima filter add-on with a single 1/2 hp pump to an alternate approach using my present 1/4 hp pump dedicated to skimming and another new 1/4 hp pump dedicated to bottom drain , both pump outputs going to the waterfall unit.

  • garyfla_gw
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi
    One trick I forgot to mention . Get really nice ones in very rare colors finage . plan on which to mate .
    They will immediately be eaten by a heron raccoon or just plain disappear. Viola!! no overpopulation.
    Ordinary ones will breed like flies and live for decades.
    For a real treat try catching Giant Danios!! They won't even fall for a minnow trap. Goldfish are a snap just offer some food. they'll jump in the bag lol gary

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gary, you have given the deepest, most insightful information that I have seen on GW. I've been studying on it all evening. First I thought I should make a post on how to ATTRACT raccoons and great blues. Then I saw you had the answer - buy expensive fancy fish. And load up on ugly cheapos if you want to repel those predators. Brilliant.

    So it goes like this?? If I want to have fish without having babies, buy only fancy, expensive fish and then they will get eaten and by having no fish I can have fish the way I want as long as having fish means not having fish. A cycle. lol

    I think this will work - thanks lol
    Mike

  • garyfla_gw
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi
    Not sure if it will work with all fancy fish but a gorgeous pair of Calicos with huge areas of blue perfect finage disappeared within 4 days. A solid black pair of pearlscales had Herons waiting in the driveway as I arrived home.lol People don't realize that a pond is really a giant bird feeder lol
    I've offered to take raccoons out to red lobster for a seafood dinner if they'd leave them alone Much more for them to eat and MUCH cheaper for me .Turned up their little snoots at that
    Now get some of those 10 for a dollar goldfish and they'll dine elsewhere,herons will move to better neighborhoods. Outproduce mosquitoes lol
    One trick I've heard but have not tried. Have small children who name them and become very attached Not only will they not breed they'll be gone in a week. Works with all classes of animals . gary

  • mgeca
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are you saying I have to have children (again) in order to have fish? I never read about this before. May put the kibosh on the whole plan.

    Mike

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